In short
The episode covers three Supreme Court developments. Topic 1: Human rights lawsuits against corporations under the Alien Tort Statute. Guest Curtis Bradley (University of Chicago Law School) explains the Cisco case: 12 Chinese nationals and one U.S. citizen sued Cisco for allegedly aiding and abetting persecution of China’s Falun Gong by supplying surveillance tech used to identify and torture practitioners. Key claim: the Court held the Alien Tort Statute lacks congressional authorization for modern corporate human-rights damages suits, effectively ending most such litigation unless Congress amends the law.
Notable examples
references to prior narrowing decisions, including a 2021 Nestlé/Cargill child-slavery case. Topic 2: Religious rights in prison. Guest Richard Garnett (Notre Dame Law School) discusses Damon Landor, a Rastafarian whose dreadlocks were cut and head shaved after he showed a controlling ruling. Key claim: a 6-3 decision bars damages suits against individual prison employees under RLUIPA due to federalism/spending-power limits, though other relief may remain. Topic 3: Eitan Patz. Guest Paul Callen (former Manhattan prosecutor) discusses a 6-3 per curiam reinstatement of Pablo Hernandez’s kidnapping/murder conviction after Miranda-related jury-instruction issues.
Notable examples
Hernandez confessed seven times; police initially questioned him without Miranda, then later provided warnings and videotaped confessions.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSupreme Court Decisions Overview
0:00 to 0:29
Discussion of recent Supreme Court rulings, particularly on human rights lawsuits.
“When you own your own business, you own every decision.”
Supreme Court Decisions Overview
1:37 to 3:18
Discussion of recent Supreme Court rulings, particularly on human rights lawsuits.
“Eight were by votes of six to three, with the conservative Republican appointees in the majority and the liberal Democratic appointees in dissent.”
The Cisco Case and Human Rights
3:18 to 5:26
Analysis of the Supreme Court's decision on the Cisco case regarding human rights litigation.
“Kurt, tell us about this lawsuit by 12 Chinese nationals and one U.S.”
Legal Implications of the Alien Tort Statute
5:26 to 7:42
Understanding the implications of the Alien Tort Statute in light of the recent ruling.
“courts under this old alien tort statute.”
Dissenting Opinions and Precedents
7:42 to 9:21
Exploration of dissenting opinions on the Supreme Court's ruling in the Cisco case.
“Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote an impassioned dissent, saying the majority was throwing out two decades of settled precedent.”
Congress and Human Rights Litigation
9:21 to 10:34
Discussion on the role of Congress in addressing human rights litigation issues.
“The Roberts court has been narrowing the alien tort statute over the years.”
Contrast with ExxonMobil Case
10:34 to 12:18
Comparative analysis of the Cisco human rights ruling and the ExxonMobil lawsuit.
“And so, you know, the argument of the majority is if it's really important to vindicate these rights, then people should lobby Congress to try to get another human rights statute.”
Contrast with ExxonMobil Case
14:03 to 14:24
Comparative analysis of the Cisco human rights ruling and the ExxonMobil lawsuit.
“You approve the workflow and your agent handles the rest.”
Contrast with ExxonMobil Case
14:27 to 14:38
Comparative analysis of the Cisco human rights ruling and the ExxonMobil lawsuit.
“Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC.”
Case Analysis: Landor's Religious Rights Violated
15:49 to 20:47
Explore the Supreme Court's ruling on Landor's religious rights case.
“He was at respondent's mercy in federally funded custody when he handed them a copy of controlling precedent holding that Rulupa protected his right to keep his hair long.”
Show all 21 chapters
The Implications of RALUPA
20:48 to 22:35
Understand the complexities of the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.
“And it's all based on these kind of, you know, first year law school constitutional law debates about the regulatory powers of Congress and how much power Congress has to attach strings to the money it spends.”
Federalism and the Conservative-Liberal Split
22:36 to 24:56
Discuss the ideological divide on federalism within the Supreme Court.
“I mean, this wasn't kind of a judgment call, reasonable minds can disagree kind of thing.”
Recent Trends in Religious Freedom Cases
24:57 to 27:18
Review recent Supreme Court decisions affecting religious freedoms.
“so I apologize to anybody who's listening to it.”
Closing Remarks and Future Topics
29:32 to 30:42
Wrap up the discussion and tease upcoming legal cases.
“Rokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., Member FINRA and SIPC.”
The Disappearance of Etan Patz
30:51 to 31:41
Explore the notorious case of Etan Patz and its impact on child safety.
“after he disappeared on the way to school in New York City in 1971.”
Confessions and Legal Controversies
31:41 to 32:54
Delve into the legal complexities surrounding the confessions in the Etan Patz case.
“New York appellate courts affirmed the conviction.”
The Role of Miranda Rights
32:54 to 33:58
Understand the significance of Miranda rights in the confessions made by Hernandez.
“An individual named Hernandez, whose conviction was now reaffirmed by the Supreme Court.”
The Jury's Question and Its Implications
33:58 to 36:05
Examine the jury's question during deliberations and its legal implications.
“We have somebody confessing to the murder of Etan Pates.”
Federal vs. State Law in Confessions
36:05 to 40:48
Analyze how federal and state laws interact in the context of confessions and appeals.
“And then the federal appellate court, the Second Circuit, in a hundred page opinion, last year reversed and ordered that he get a new trial.”
Supreme Court's Final Decision
40:48 to 42:05
Learn about the Supreme Court's ruling on the Etan Patz case and its broader implications.
“And here the Supreme Court was saying, you know, there are certain things that we leave to the state.”
Supreme Court Decision Overview
42:05 to 43:11
A detailed analysis of a recent Supreme Court decision and its implications.
“Nothing from the liberals about why they were dissenting on this.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Curtis Bradley:When you own your own business, you own every decision. Now own the card that rewards you for it. Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business is a pay-in-full card that elevates your travel experience
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0:49Richard Garnett:At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across HR, IT, and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions. slash repetitive tasks and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business, IBM. This coffee shop? Running smooth thanks to Genius. From global payments, instant transactions, effortless inventory, and synchronized operations. Big league reliability for any business. That's genius. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.
1:36Curtis Bradley:This week, the Supreme Court handed down 10 decisions. Eight were by votes of six to three, with the conservative Republican appointees in the majority and the liberal Democratic appointees in dissent. This term, the court has already decided more cases split down ideological lines than it did in all of last term. On Tuesday, the court's conservatives put new limits on lawsuits alleging human rights violations against corporations over atrocities committed abroad, effectively putting an end to these suits over human rights abuses. The reasoning echoed the concerns expressed by conservatives like Justices Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh during the oral arguments that Congress should be the branch dealing with accusations of human rights violations in other countries.
2:30Richard Garnett:Really the job for creating causes of action, because of foreign policy concerns, as sympathetic as this particular case certainly is, but the responsibility for creating causes of action generally lies not with judges, but with Congress. I'm concerned at a separation of powers level that we're not really allowing suits to go forward, but Congress thinks we are because of a lack of clarity in our case law.
2:57Curtis Bradley:The court granted tech giant Cisco's bid to shut down the lawsuit alleging that the company worked closely with China to create the surveillance system that allowed officials to identify, apprehend, and torture members of the Falun Gong spiritual movement in China. Cisco has denied allegations of wrongdoing. My guest is an expert in international law, Curtis Bradley, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School. Kurt, tell us about this lawsuit by 12 Chinese nationals and one U.S. citizen against Cisco.
3:31Richard Garnett:So the Cisco case was a suit brought by the Falun Gong religious group from China, at least a number of members of that organization. They were suing not China in this case, but Cisco Systems, the computer company in the United States. And their argument was that Cisco had aided and abetted persecution of the Falun Gong in China by supplying Chinese government with surveillance technology, basically. And the lower court had allowed this case to go forward. And the Supreme Court said that it could not go forward. And they issued a pretty important ruling about this type of human rights litigation, which has been pretty active for the last 30 years.
4:10Richard Garnett:And the court's decision in Cisco, I think, largely is going to put an end to these human rights cases brought against corporations.
4:18Curtis Bradley:So was the basic issue whether the Alien Tort Statute creates liability for corporations who aid and abet human rights abuses.
4:27Richard Garnett:Yeah, the case is based on this old statute called the Alien Tort Statute. It's actually been on the books since the beginning of the country, 1789. But it has just been used for human rights litigation really during the last 30 or 40 years. And what the court held in the Cisco case was effectively cannot be used for human rights claims. It's one way to translate the decision. They basically said the statute doesn't have enough indication in it that Congress has wanted these human rights cases to go forward. So unless Congress amends the statute, the court is really putting an end to those cases.
5:02Richard Garnett:It did say that the statute could be used for a few personal injury type claims that would have been around in the 1780s, but they're not ones that we ever see today anymore. So this Cisco case basically says Congress will have to provide a new statute if plaintiffs are going to be able to sue for human rights abuses occurring in various countries. And that's an important ruling because there have been many cases for human rights abuses brought for atrocities from around the world, and they've been brought into U.S. courts under this old alien tort statute. And the Supreme Court had imposed a variety of restrictions on that litigation really in the last 15 years or so.
5:40Richard Garnett:But this is a more dramatic limit because it effectively just ends any more alien tort statute litigation, I think.
5:46Curtis Bradley:So the alien tort statute is only 33 words. I'm going to read it. The district court shall have original jurisdiction of any civil action by an alien for a tort only committed in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States. So if this is a court, you know, that's reading the statute and ruling according to the words, why doesn't that cover what's happening here?
6:11Richard Garnett:Well, a couple of thoughts. One thing the court notes is that until the 1980s, no one thought the statute provided a cause of action, a claim for human rights abuses. And the words that you just read are not really written in terms of a claim statute. All they say is that the courts have jurisdiction. That is, that they're available to hear certain kinds of tort cases, but they don't really provide what we today would call a cause of action, that is a right to seek damages or other relief. And at least in the modern era, courts wait until Congress provides an actual claim statute before it starts giving people the right to sue for damages.
6:49Richard Garnett:But in the alien tort statute cases, courts had been allowing suits for damages, even though I don't think the statute really addresses that. The other thing the court mentions is that suits for these torts around the world inherently raise foreign policy issues. Sometimes they might promote some good in terms of human rights improvement, but they also sometimes create lots of conflicts with other countries. And the court thought that if Congress really wants that type of litigation, it needs to address those foreign policy issues more specifically. And just citing a statute from 1789 doesn't really show Congress has addressed all the foreign policy trade-offs that human rights cases pose today.
7:32Richard Garnett:And so effectively, the court's just pushing this over to carnage.
7:36Curtis Bradley:The three liberals dissented from the part of the ruling that limited claims under the alien tort statute. Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote an impassioned dissent, saying the majority was throwing out two decades of settled precedent. Quote, the court's decision today is yet another notch in its belt, unabashedly remaking the law in its preferred image. I mean, only 20 years ago, the Supreme Court held the opposite of this decision.
8:03Richard Garnett:There's a 2004 decision. It's called Sosa versus Alvarez-Machain. And Sotomayor's dissent certainly understandably emphasizes that decision because the court there did allow at least some cases to continue proceeding under the alien tort statute. Now, it was a pretty limited holding in Sosa. And the court said there should never be a particularly robust set of cases. And And it suggested a variety of limits the court should consider. And since that 2004 decision, the Supreme Court has never found a case to satisfy those limits from that 2004 case. And so the majority in the Cisco case says we should just be clear that we're just not going to find a case that satisfies those strict limitations and just let everyone know so they don't waste time litigating.
8:52Richard Garnett:Because repeatedly, the court has found reasons to reject those claims. And now it's just doing so more categorically. But I think the dissent makes a reasonable point that the court's not really giving precedential effect to that 2004 case. My own view, by the way, you know, people disagree about this, is that the 2004 case was probably wrongly decided. And I think the majority believes that to be the case as well. But nevertheless, there's an argument that it was entitled to some precedential weight that the court is not giving.
9:21Curtis Bradley:The Roberts court has been narrowing the alien tort statute over the years. And I remember the decision in 2021 where a suit accused Nestle and Cargill of aiding and abetting child slavery on the Ivory Coast. And the court ruled there was no cause of action there either. If there's no cause of action, then, I mean, these people have no place else to sue, right?
9:44Richard Garnett:That is one of the concerns about some of these restrictive decisions. There are serious atrocities being committed in various countries. Most of the time, there aren't really any available remedies for the victims. They can't typically sue in the place of the human rights abuse. Most other nations don't allow cases like we had been allowing under the alien tort statute. There aren't really international tribunals suited for the task. So some of the courts who like the alien tort statute litigation had said at least it's some possibility of redress, vindication of their human rights. And that's actually a main reason some of the lower courts had been allowing these cases.
10:26Richard Garnett:But as the majority said in Cisco, that might be a noble goal. It's just not clear that Congress has endorsed that particular goal. And normally, at least today, if we're going to allow those kinds of important claims, somebody in the political branches, Congress particularly, should actually decide whether that makes sense. And so, you know, the argument of the majority is if it's really important to vindicate these rights, then people should lobby Congress to try to get another human rights statute. They got one, by the way, in the 1990s.
10:56Curtis Bradley:I do want to point out that while the court's conservatives shut the door on these lawsuits against corporations for human rights abuses abroad, on the same day, they opened the door to a$1 billion lawsuit by Exxon against a Cuban conglomerate for operating oil and gas assets seized in 1960 in Cuba following the country's communist revolution. Quite a contrast there.
11:22Richard Garnett:Yes, absolutely. In some ways, they look like decisions that are a bit in conflict in that the Cisco case shuts down international type claims because they're worried about the foreign policy implications. The ExxonMobil case allows pretty aggressive international claims against at least Cuban entities and others. And so how do you reconcile those? And one way possibly of reconciling, I think the court in the Exxon case had the view that Congress and the executive really did support aggressive legal claims against Cuba and companies transacting with Cuba. And that's probably to some extent true.
12:03Richard Garnett:The statute in the Exxon case is a relatively recent one compared to the alien tort statute. And it has aggressive provisions allowing suits against anyone who traffics in property confiscated by the Castro Cuban government. And it does have language allowing suit even against government entities that transact in that confiscated property. So at least the court in the Exxon case has stronger and clear statutory language, I think, to work with in allowing the claims. I actually think it's kind of a pretty close call, in my view, about the statutory language in the Exxon case. So I thought the dissenting justices had some reasonable counter arguments about the statute.
12:43Curtis Bradley:I suspect we'll be seeing more of these lawsuits filed in the future now that the court has opened the door. It's been great having you on. Thanks so much, Kurt. That's Professor Curtis Bradley of the University of Chicago Law School. Coming up next, the court rules that a Rastafarian inmate can't sue the prison officials who violated his religious rights. I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg.
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15:48Richard Garnett:It is undisputed that my client has alleged an assault that is just brazenly illegal. He was at respondent's mercy in federally funded custody when he handed them a copy of controlling precedent holding that Rulupa protected his right to keep his hair long. They threw it away, handcuffed him to a chair, and shaved him bald.
16:07Curtis Bradley:Damon Landor is a devout Rastafarian who hadn't cut his hair in two decades following his faith in which dreadlocks are a sacred symbol. So when he was transferred to a Louisiana prison with just weeks left on his five-month sentence, he handed prison guards a copy of an appeals court decision holding that cutting religious prisoners' dreadlocks violated federal law. But a guard threw the ruling into the trash, and despite Landor's pleas, he was handcuffed to a chair and held down as his knee-length dreadlocks were cut and his head shaved bald. During oral arguments, the justices condemned Landor's treatment and the blatant disregard of his religious rights.
16:53Curtis Bradley:Here's conservative Justice Amy Coney Barrett. Look, the facts of this case are egregious. So if on the facts we were looking for a case in which there should be money damages, this is it. But it turns out this case wasn't it. In a 6-3 decision, the court's conservative majority ruled that Landor can't sue the guards who cut off his dreadlocks. They decided that inmates can't use the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, or RELUPA, to sue prison officials for damages for violating their religious rights. The opinion was written by Justice Neil Gorsuch, who telegraphed the conclusion during the arguments.
17:34Richard Garnett:The circuits are unanimously against you and have been for many, many, many years. So saying that something awful is going to happen, whatever's happened has happened, right? But the liberal justices disagreed, and in a dissent by Justice Ketanji Brown-Jackson,
17:51Curtis Bradley:they expressed concerns that after this decision, state prison officials will have little incentive to follow the law and respect the religious rights of inmates. My guest is Richard Garnett, a professor at Notre Dame Law School and director of the school's program on church, state and society. Rick, what's your reaction to this decision and the implications of this decision?
18:16Richard Garnett:The result in this case, in the Landor case, is not surprising given the way the oral arguments went. It was clear that the justices, or at least a majority of them, were very focused on the federalism issues in this case. And that's what makes this case kind of tricky. It has a religious freedom dimension, for sure, because the facts involve a really shocking violation of a prisoner's religious freedom rights. But there's also this kind of technical constitutional law question about the power of Congress to authorize certain kinds of lawsuits. And so, you know, some of the reactions to the case, I think, are misguided in the sense that I've seen some reports that, oh, this is just the court not caring about a minority religion.
18:57Richard Garnett:I think that's not the right way to think about it, you know, a group of the justices, the six in the majority here, have a pretty consistent vision of federalism. And they believe that there are limits on the federal government's power to authorize certain kinds of relief against state officials. Now, I should confess, I filed a brief on the side of the prisoner in this case. In my view, the right answer was that this action was authorized. But the reason the court ruled against him was not because it was unbothered by the egregiousness of this violation, but because they just didn't think the federal government had the power to authorize the suit.
19:29Richard Garnett:So what this means, in my opinion, among other things, is that state governments need to really step up and make sure they provide meaningful relief for prisoners whose religious liberty rights are violated by officials, as Mr. Landor's clearly were.
19:44Curtis Bradley:Rilupa was designed to protect the religious rights of inmates. So why doesn't it work for this inmate whose religious rights were, I mean, everyone agrees, clearly and blatantly violated.
Read the full transcript
19:57Richard Garnett:Yeah, this is, and I apologize for getting into the weeds a little bit, but RALUPA is a special kind of statute. It's authorized by what we call the spending power, which means that it's not so much a direct regulation as it is a deal. The Congress says to the states, if you want this money, then you have to agree to comply with this understanding of religious liberty rights. The wrinkle in this case is that Mr. Landor wasn't suing the state. He wasn't suing the state prison. He was suing the prison employee in that employee's personal capacity. So, you know, you're not suing the prison, you're suing, you know, Officer Jones.
20:34Richard Garnett:And the thing is, Officer Jones never took any federal money, so he didn't make this deal with the federal government. So according to the court, since Officer Jones, that's not his name, I'm making that up, didn't make the deal with the federal government, that means that the federal statute doesn't authorize a lawsuit against Jones. And it's all based on these kind of, you know, first year law school constitutional law debates about the regulatory powers of Congress and how much power Congress has to attach strings to the money it spends. And there's a long tradition of the court saying, you know, there are limits on the strings you can attach to money.
21:08Richard Garnett:So again, nothing denies that the officers behaved badly and that Mr. Landor's religious freedom was violated. It's that the particular relief that Landor was seeking, the money damages lawsuit against an individual, couldn't be authorized by the statute.
21:22Curtis Bradley:So the majority said that state employees didn't consent to face lawsuits in their personal capacities when Congress passed RALUPA. As a practical matter, when would an employee consent to be sued? Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson in dissent said, today's decision magically transforms a federal statute into an invitation to be accepted or declined, deemed binding only if each particular defendant has explicitly agreed to be penalized. I mean, to the average person, the dissent makes sense.
21:55Richard Garnett:Well, and again, I was on that side in the end. I do think she oversimplifies the federalism issue. There's plenty of precedent to the effect that these regulatory spending arrangements do function kind of like a contract. That said, in my view, the better ruling would have been to say that when the state entered into this effectively contract with the federal government and took on the burdens to respect the religious liberty of inmates, that because these folks are the employees of the state, those folks kind of take employment subject to the requirements that are laid on their employers. And that includes what the statute calls appropriate relief, which if you want to get in the weeds.
22:34Richard Garnett:That's kind of what this case really came down to is what counts as appropriate relief. So a concern that Justice Jackson raised and that I share, even though I think she oversimplifies a bit, is that, you know, the incentives on state prison employees to respect religious inmates' rights, those incentives are going to be muted a bit if they're not subject to damages for, you know, egregious violations. I mean, this wasn't kind of a judgment call, reasonable minds can disagree kind of thing. It's very clear on the facts of this case that Mr. Landor's rights were, again, outrageously violated. And so there's a concern, and this is one of the concerns that Justice Jackson raised and that I share, is that the effectiveness of the statute, which, I mean, as you said earlier, June, the point of the whole statute was to protect prisoners' religious freedom rights, is going to be weakened or undermined if that kind of, what do you want to call it, stick is pulled away.
23:24Curtis Bradley:Could Landor have sued the state and the state prison system?
23:28Richard Garnett:Yeah. So this is about a particular cause of action. And, you know, there are almost certainly other ones that in theory could have been available to him. And, you know, again, my hope is that some states will respond by making sure that they create additional causes of action for prisoners like this. But, you know, there's a tendency, and we're all familiar with it, that it's easy to kind of lose sight of prisoners and their rights, you know, out of sight, out of mind, we tend to other our prisoners. But it isn't the case that this decision means that Landor would never have any relief for this kind of violation.
23:58Richard Garnett:And the decision is limited to relief under this particular statute.
24:02Curtis Bradley:The court in 2020 allowed Muslim men to sue over their inclusion on the FBI's no-fly list under a sister statute, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Explain why the same reasoning didn't apply here.
24:17Richard Garnett:Yeah, this is an important distinction, or at least it was to the court. So the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is not a spending power statute. It's a statute that rests on Congress's power to enforce the 14th Amendment. And it's a statute that only applies to the federal government. RALUPA is, on the one hand, much broader. It applies to not only the federal government, but to states. On the other hand, it's also narrower because the basis for it, the justification for the RALUPA statute, is this spending power. And the lines of doctrine about Congress's power under the 14th Amendment are just different from the lines of precedent about Congress's power under the spending clause.
24:56Richard Garnett:And again, I know this is really the kind of thing that makes normal people's eyes glaze over, so I apologize to anybody who's listening to it. But for legal purposes, it really does make a difference which power Congress is using. And with RALUPA, because it was only applying to the federal government, these federalism concerns are not in play. Congress is perfectly within its rights to subject the federal government to various standards of liability and to create causes of action against the federal government. But because we have a federalist system, it's more complicated when Congress imposes standards on the states.
25:25Richard Garnett:And that's what explains the difference.
25:26Curtis Bradley:Can you explain why this would be a, you know, there was an ideological split, why it would be a conservative liberal split on this?
25:33Richard Garnett:Again, this is generalizing with these labels and so on. But it tends to be the case that the conservatives are more interested in federalism. And it tends to be the case that the liberals are more friendly to Congress's power to create causes of action. What divided the court was not the importance of religious freedom. You know, a couple of years ago, we had a case involving a Muslim prisoner who wanted to grow a beard, and it was 9 to 0. Everybody agreed on the importance of that under Rulupa. But there was no question about federalism in that case because the cause of action wasn't against a person in his individual capacity.
26:06Richard Garnett:It was against the prison system. So the justices, you know, whether they're appointed by Democrats or Republicans, they all agree that the religious freedom rights of prisoners are important. What divided them here were these issues that divide them in lots of cases. Debates about federal power and debates about the ability to create causes of action.
26:23Curtis Bradley:There's been a string of victories for religious liberties at the Supreme Court. I mean, when was the last time that there was a defeat for religious interests at the court?
26:36Richard Garnett:I'm thinking out loud here. It is the first in a while. So certainly religious freedom claimants have done well with this court. Now, I suppose some might say, for example, that when a claimant filed a lawsuit against the War Memorial Cross in the American Legion case, that they were seeking to vindicate their religious freedom and they lost. But I think it's certainly true that this court has been friendly to religious freedom claims. But, you know, I can't think of any of those claims that involve the same federalism concerns that this one did. Probably the last case I can think of where the religious freedom claimants lost was Trump versus Hawaii, which was a challenge to the so-called Muslim ban that the Trump administration had put into place early in its first administration.
27:15Curtis Bradley:And that was back in 2018. So certainly a long string of victories for religious claimants. Eight years of expansion of religious rights. It's always great to get your insights, Rick. Thanks so much. That's Professor Richard Garnett of Notre Dame Law School. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, in another 6-3 decision this week, the court reinstated the conviction of the man found to have killed Eton Pates, the six-year-old boy whose disappearance in 1979 changed the way the public viewed missing children's cases. And remember, you can always get the latest legal news by listening to our Bloomberg Law Podcasts.
27:56Curtis Bradley:You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg.com slash podcast slash law. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.
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30:50Curtis Bradley:The smiling face of a six-year-old boy stared back from countless milk cartons after he disappeared on the way to school in New York City in 1971. The disappearance of Eitan Pates was one of the country's most notorious missing child cases. It sparked a nationwide campaign to find missing children and change the way law enforcement handles the cases. Pates was never found and it took nearly 40 years before the arrest and conviction of Pablo Hernandez for his kidnapping and murder. Eitan's father, Stanley Pates, said he finally got the answers he'd been searching for. I needed to know what happened to my son, and this great prosecution team finally proved it.
31:40Curtis Bradley:But then there were the appeals. New York appellate courts affirmed the conviction. But last year, the Second Circuit, a federal appellate court, reversed and ordered a new trial for Hernandez because of the way the trial judge had answered a question from the jury. But this week, another reversal. This time from the Supreme Court, reversing the Second Circuit and reinstating Hernandez's conviction for the kidnapping and murder of Eitan Pates. My guest is former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callen. Paul, the disappearance of Eitan Pates became national news, and he really became the poster child for missing children.
32:24Curtis Bradley:You're absolutely right about that. As a matter of fact, I think this case has altered child rearing in the United States permanently. You know, it used to be mom would send kids out the back door and say, go play, come back for supper. Now the parents follow them around, follow them to the bus stop. They're all terrified that kids are going to be kidnapped. And it all started with Eton Pates, who was going to catch a bus to his school in Soho in New York, and he was kidnapped and apparently murdered. And only recently have we had a final resolution of the case in terms of who committed the murder.
32:59Curtis Bradley:An individual named Hernandez, whose conviction was now reaffirmed by the Supreme Court. Tell us about the confession, because there were some troubling things about the confession. Yes, there were. His brother-in-law reported to the police that his, quote, low IQ relative has confessed to the murder. And Camden County, New Jersey police pick him up and they start questioning him. but they don't give him his Miranda warnings. He confesses that he was working in a bodega in Soho when Eton Pates came in to buy a drink as he was on his way to the bus stop and that he murdered Eton Pates and disposed of the body, presumably throwing the body into a dumpster behind the deli.
33:43Curtis Bradley:Full confession to the murder. The police then, who have not given him his Miranda warnings, now say we should give them the Miranda warnings and videotape this confession. And that's exactly what they do. They give them Miranda warnings, videotape the confession, and then they call the district attorney's office in New York and say, you better come out here. We have somebody confessing to the murder of Etan Pates. Now, this was a case that had gone cold for a long time. So obviously, the Manhattan DA's office was very interested in that. Apparently, while all of this is going on, Hernandez also talks to his wife and his daughter, Rosemary and Becky, and he confesses to both of them that he's in fact the person who killed Eton Pates.
34:26Curtis Bradley:He's then picked up by the Manhattan DA's office, taken back into New York, where he confesses again to the murder, this time again on videotape. So we now have two videotaped confessions. Later on, during pretrial proceedings, he meets with a psychiatrist. he confesses to the psychiatrist that he's the murderer. And while giving that confession, he also tells the psychiatrist that he admitted this to a prayer group at one point over the last 20 years. So by my count, I think he's confessed now seven times to the murder. A question the jury posed to the judge during deliberations became a defining issue for the Second Circuit.
35:06Curtis Bradley:So tell us about that question. So the case goes to trial in New York. The first trial, by the way, ends in a hung jury. He's retried and the second jury comes back with a jury question. And the jury question is this. If he was not given his Miranda warnings properly and therefore did not voluntarily confess, is it OK for us to consider the other confessions that occurred after this? In substance, that was the question that was asked by the jury. The way they phrased it was the jury said, do we have to disregard the subsequent confessions if the first confession was not voluntary? The judge says one word, no, no, you don't have to disregard the subsequent confessions.
35:54Curtis Bradley:And after that, the jury deliberates for another week and they find Hernandez guilty of the kidnapping and murder of Eton Pates. So through the state, the state appellate courts affirm the conviction. And then the federal appellate court, the Second Circuit, in a hundred page opinion, last year reversed and ordered that he get a new trial. The decision was based on the judge's instructions to the jury when they came back with a question, that question that I just repeated, Do we have to disregard the subsequent confessions where the judge just said no? Bear in mind that the appellate division in New York, the state court, they looked at it and they said, you know something?
36:36Curtis Bradley:It's all right. The question of whether a confession is voluntary is generally decided by a judge. It's not usually decided by a jury. And so the appellate division said under New York law, the way this confession was evaluated was perfectly proper. OK, so then they go into federal court with this and the Second Circuit looks at it and they say, well, we think there's a problem here. The judge should have explained in more detail other than saying no to the jury that there could be a problem with the confession, that there was insufficient what we call attenuation between the initial confession and the subsequent confession.
37:17Curtis Bradley:Which also gets us back to another rule, which is the Mitchell versus Siebert rule that came about when the cops were misusing Miranda warnings. And what they would do is they would bring you into the station, get you to confess to a crime. And after you gave the complete detailed confession, they'd walk out of the room and then they'd come back in and give you your Miranda warnings and say, by the way, that confession, can you repeat that please for the record? and now they videotape your confession. Now, when the federal courts looked at this, they said, this is completely improper. It's an attempt to get around the Miranda warnings.
37:54Curtis Bradley:And once somebody has been possibly coerced into giving a confession because they haven't heard the Miranda warnings, of course they're going to repeat the confession. So this Missouri versus Siebert case said basically, this is an improper method of administering the Miranda warnings. And if it's done deliberately by the police, the confession has to be thrown out. So this comes up now in the Hernandez case, because does that violate the Missouri versus Siebert rule? Well, the court in New York said, no, there was no violation of that in our opinion. But when it goes over to the federal court, the federal court says, yes, there was a violation of that.
38:32Curtis Bradley:So the Second Circuit reversed the conviction and ordered a new trial for Hernandez. But the Manhattan District Attorney's Office took that decision to the highest court. The state, and this is very unusual, goes to the Supreme Court to try to get a conviction reinstated. You know, usually you see a defendant who's been convicted going to the Supreme Court to get his case thrown out. This is the opposite. The prosecutor is looking for justice now. So now when they go to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court says, no, there was no violation here because the state looked at it under state law. The administration of Miranda warnings was done properly.
39:12Curtis Bradley:There was proper attenuation. And that's a question for the judge, not the jury. The Siebert case never said anything about jury instructions. So this is an overreach by the Second Circuit. And there was no right for a habeas corpus to be brought here. So we're reinstating the conviction. Paul, did the Supreme Court reverse because the Second Circuit didn't properly follow federal law or because state law should have applied here? Well, it's a complex question because they're saying that in this situation, the state had the right to evaluate whether there was a proper attenuation of the confession.
39:53Curtis Bradley:In other words, whether the secondary administration of Miranda warnings by the Manhattan DA and by the police violated New York law. And New York said, no, that doesn't violate our law. And in New York, a jury can sometimes decide whether a confession is voluntary or not. Under federal law, that's generally a judge determination that's been made. So the Supreme Court, looking at this overall, said, well, we have looked at this and there's no violation of federal law as it exists. And if there was a violation of state law, the state has already made a decision here that there was no violation of New York state law.
40:36Curtis Bradley:So the federal government has no business interfering in how the state of New York interprets the administration of the Miranda warnings and the confession is a voluntary confession. So it's kind of a question of how you evaluate due process under state and federal law and whether there's a conflict between the sovereign entities. And here the Supreme Court was saying, you know, there are certain things that we leave to the state. And the Federal Habeas Corpus Act says we should leave most of those things alone unless it's an absolutely egregious violation of somebody's constitutional rights. And let's step back and look at this case, June.
41:16Curtis Bradley:The guy confessed seven times to the murder. All right. So I think the Supreme Court was looking at it saying, well, you know, we're not worried about whether we have the right guy or not. We're just looking at some technicalities here. And the New York courts looked at those technicalities and said, there's no violation of New York law here. So we're not going to set it aside because there's no violation of federal law. I mean, the Second Circuit basically wanted the judge to start explaining to the jury a concurring opinion by Justice Kennedy in a case from more than 20 years ago. I mean, it just seemed ridiculous to put it in legal terms.
41:53Curtis Bradley:That's exactly what the Second Circuit said. And by the way, people should know this is what's called a per curiam decision by the Supreme Court, which means a decision by the court. We don't know who authored this opinion, but we do know that the three liberal justices on the court voted against. So it was a 6-3 decision by the court. Nothing from the liberals about why they were dissenting on this. Very unusual because, you know, these procurium decisions are usually very, very short. But this was, I think, an 11 page, very, very detailed decision by the court. And you would think that the three justices who were dissenting would have weighed in as to why they disagreed with the other six members of the court.
42:35Curtis Bradley:But no, they said nothing. They just said we dissent. So I don't know what the basis of their dissent would be. And we'll never know because this case is for all practical purposes over. I mean, it'll go back to the state court and the sentence will be reimposed and that'll be the end of it. And Eitan Pates' father told the New York Times that the Supreme Court decision gave him a sense of relief that he wouldn't have to go through a third trial and relive those memories and the loss of his son, and this time without his wife who died six years ago. So truly the end of such a sad case. Thanks for your insights, Paul.
43:11Curtis Bradley:That's former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callen of counsel at Edelman & Edelman. And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember, you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www.bloomberg.com slash podcast slash law. And remember to tune into the Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at 10 p.m. Wall Street time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.
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From the publisher
International law expert Curtis Bradley, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School, discusses Supreme Court’s decisions basically eliminating human rights lawsuits against companies over atrocities committed abroad. Then Richard Garnett, a professor at Notre Dame Law School and Director of the Notre Dame Program on Church, State & Society, discusses the Supreme Court decision blocking a Rastafarian’s suit Against prison officials for cutting off his dreadlocks in a flagrant violation of his religious rights. And former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callan, of counsel at Edelman & Edelman, discusses the Supreme Court reinstating the murder conviction of Pablo Hernandez for the murder of 6 year old Etan Patz who became the poster child for missing children. June Grasso hosts.
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