Hairstylist Chris McMillan on His *NEW* Hair Product Line, “The Rachel” Lore, C*nty Little Bob Summer and Hair Tips Galore

26:17And like I think we were seeing the$900 haircut like over a dozen years ago. I saw an article in Grazia last week for a 600 pound manicure. That's where we're at now. So in London, 600 pounds. So you're undercharging. You are undercharging. Is what we're saying. Well, there you have it, everyone. I've asked the most Google question and now we know from the man himself. Exactly. What about some of your celebrity clients? Is there any kind of like ritual you could share? Is there like this person always has to have this kind of tea or, you know, like what kind of experience are they getting? It's funny.

26:51I mean, just recently what it's about is everybody has sort of like, you know, their sort of do's and don'ts. And they all like Michelle Williams where we treat her hair like a silk. I said, I said, what did I say? Like a silk saline blouse. And she said, no, it's a Prada blouse right now. And I was like, oh, okay. So, you know, she bleaches her hair and we're very gentle. And I just know I'm like, I don't use my strong hand. Like with Jennifer Aniston, I could be super strong handed. And she likes it when I like manhandle her hair. Yeah. That's like me. I need some tension on that brush. I can tell immediately if it's going to be a bad blowout.

27:34If it's like a limp brush. Jen does too. You cannot touch her like this. You have to like grab it, yank it, and manhandle. It's true. You know, and I don't do Sarah Jessica Parker's. Her number one hairdresser is Serge Normand, obviously, but I'm a backup. Okay. And the ritual, I've been working with her a lot lately because Serge has been on a film, blah, blah, blah. Okay. We love when Serge is on a film because I love working with Sarah Jessica. But there's a ritual is I can't talk to her while she's getting her hair done because she's reading and doing work. I can talk to her, though, while she's getting her makeup done because she can't read.

28:19Right, right. And so that's the little ritual. That's why you're the pro and you've been doing it this long. You know, it's nice. It's really nice. Now, we got to get into the topic, the big topic of the hour. I feel like there's been so many people that have kind of like grown up in your salon and then gone on to create their own brands, you know. So after four decades, what has inspired you to maybe embark on this journey yourself? Well, to be perfectly honest, I, you know, I've always been branded with somebody. I've always been. I was with Living Proof. Yes. I was with Drunk Elephant. I did sort of a thing with them.

28:55And I learned a lot. I learned a lot of lab time. I learned a lot about the business. I've learned about that kind of the do's and the don'ts and how hard it really is. And so it really, like, I don't really have the time to start my own business. And I, there was a contract for another beauty brand sitting on my kitchen counter. I want to say my desk, but I'm not that clever. I don't really have a desk. I've got a kitchen counter. and it was sitting on my kitchen counter and my partner, Kenny, my husband, my boyfriend, my everything, he's like, can I read this? And I was like, sure. And he's super smart.

29:39He's USC business school graduate, more in property development and all of that. And he's like, why don't you've got a great life? Like you've got this amazing life. Why don't you do your own thing? And I was like, well, I mean, everybody says that my business manager's like, Chris, you just need like you got to see these people they're making a ton of money you should do your own thing and then even Damien's like Chris let's do your own thing but you got to be like don't forget you got to be at Jennifer's house at noon and then you need to be on a plane because you got to go do you know a concert here and then you got to like go do in France do a fashion week and so it's like always everybody's got this great idea you should do a product right but then I don't know the first thing to do.

30:25I'm a hairdresser and I'm a creative. I'm not like, I know how to like count my money and I know how to save my money and I know how to spend my money. I know how to buy a house. I love the process of like all of that and buying a car and all those things and running the business is sort of like organically happened. And like somebody told me when I opened up my salon, they said, if you get through your first day, all you have to do is that again the next day. And then that again the next day. So it was really like, really simple. I think it was Jill Dempsey that told me that. Jillian Dempsey, me too.

30:59And she also told me, don't think you're not going to be changing your own light bulbs in your salon. I was like, oh my God, she's not wrong. Nobody's like voluntarily changing light bulbs in my salon. So Kenny, he's just like, what does it look like to you? So all of a sudden the fantasy of what a product, if I were to do a product, looked like. He knows the right questions to ask, what to get you excited about. And it did. And so what would it look like? And then what would you do? And I always look at the wall of products at my salon and I was like, the world of hair care products have really gotten confusing.

31:45It's so overwhelming. I wanted to bring it back to natural. I wanted to bring it back to basics. And so that's kind of where it started. It kind of took me back to the old Sebastian days in the 80s when it was really basic shaper hairspray, like Spritz Forte, and then styling products. We have all these serums in my salon. And I was like, there's a night serum and then there's a scalp serum and then there's a damaged hair serum. And I don't even know how to use a serum. First of all, I don't like the serum. The word serum, like where was I? Was I doing hair? Like I'm not like taking a dropper and putting it on, you know, Jennifer Aniston's scalp.

32:32Like that never really made her hair, do anything. So I just started like playing and I started creating some lab samples. And one thing led to another. And here we are today to almost two years later. Wow. Two years you've been sitting on this. I've been sitting on this for two years. Show the camera. Oh, this is kind of my hero product. Okay. First of all, everybody that's listening, it's called Chris McMillan. It's in a gorgeous baby blue. French blue. French blue. French blue. Yes. I love this. Love it. Tell us everything. This is. The hero product. Oh, here's the smell of it. Okay. Here's what it smells like.

33:15This is going to be my hero product. So as you know, I could do a blowout. Oh, yes. We know that. So it's. Oh, that's gorgeous. It's so like sunny and almost a bit tropical. It's neroli. Is it neroli? And jasmine? Orange Blossom? Orange Blossom. Orange Blossom. It's Orange Blossom. It's Bande Soleil Orange Jolet No. 4 Meets Copper Tone No. 4 Sunscreen. I knew it was giving like a summery kind of vibe. Okay. Exciting. And so what this is, is this is a blow dry spray. And it just, I give a great blowout and it just makes my life easier. Yeah. And I don't want to weigh hair down too much. So it's a light spray.

34:00There is a product like this. And it's like a silver. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying that. You're putting down. No, I'm picking up what you're putting down. It's in a silver rectangular container. Yeah, it's like a flask. Right. But I wanted to make it even better and then even add a scent to it. So it's got a lot of, it's got heat protection for one. Okay. I like shiny hair. I don't like dry matte looking hair. it also sort of works great as a detangler because I use it as a prep spray so if you were to come to me to get your hair cut I will shampoo condition your hair I'll spray this in your hair it's kind of like what I do love I love how Merit Flesh Balm oh yeah it's the no you can't make a mistake with it this you cannot make a mistake with the little domed blushes you're talking about.

34:54Oh, the blushes. Yeah, those little bonbons. Yes. You can't make a mistake with it. It's a great introduction to a product. You know, sometimes you put like, if you use like an oil, you're like, oh, wait, maybe I should, where do I start? So you can't mess up. Okay. So it's called the Glassy Smooth Blow Dry Spray. Yeah. And so you're going to put this on damp hair. You're going to put it on damp hair. After the shower. Got it. And then what's happened is I always start in the back and sometimes I'm like, oh, look It actually works as a leave-in if you wanted to lean into your own natural hair.

35:27Oh, okay. The texture. It leaves it shiny and keeps the frizz out. But this also will prolong your blow dry for like up to three to four days. Amazing. And keep it nice and shiny and keep those frizzy pieces down. And sometimes, you know, underneath, like my clients, what I really did focus on is my clients that are graying also and have gray hair. but they mask them with color. But so now there's this sort of texture. Funny texture. There's the combo texture, I call it. You know, it's not as smooth, but this really helps smooth that down. Okay, she could use this right over here. Oh my gosh. So I noticed there's like almost like a little nozzle on it.

36:11Yeah. Is it a spray or? Yeah, that's a spray. Okay, perfect. How are you using it? I use it. I use it in the ends. Yes. And then kind of like spray it all over. And then I'm really a big believer of evenly distributing product through your hair. So really take a wide tooth comb, take your comb and really get it through all your hair. Evenly distribute it. Incredible. And because the other product that you mentioned that or that shall not be named, I find you really have to like douse your head in it. It's to get the desired. To coat it, you might say. Yeah. How much do you need of this? Like I said, you don't need, for you, because you have really super thick, thick hair, you know, you don't need to douse it.

36:55I would never use the word douse. But, you know, like generous amounts, like evenly distribute it. But also pull that water out of your hair so that you can use that. But what's really nice is it doesn't get gummy. It doesn't feel sticky. There's no residue. You have a nice, and it smells nice. It smells gorgeous. It's kind of giving that French girl take. I do love the sort of crossover between a French girl and an L.A. girl. So I spend a lot of time in Paris. And whenever I'm in Paris, I do talk. And I talk to people about their hair. And they're like, oh, my God, you are from L.A. You are so cute.

37:32You guys do the best hair color, blah, blah, blah. And then nobody knows how to do hair here. But then when I'm in my salon here in L.A., everyone's like, Like, I want those like Jane Birkin bangs or I want a French Bob or I want like a Brigitte Bardot curtain bang. So there's this weird L.A. friend, like Hedy Slimane lives in L.A. and designs for Celine. Right. Yeah. And so there's always been this sort of crossover between L.A. and Paris. It's like a mutual fascination. It is. It is. Yeah. And then there used to be a store called Colette. Oh, yes. I remember. So Colette was a great example. You could buy vans.

38:14And for some reason, if you bought a pair of vans in Paris, it was so much cooler than going to PacSun in Hermosa Beach and buying a pair of vans. Yeah, absolutely. Now, who gave you feedback on this and what kind of feedback were you getting? Did it take a while to get to this final? 39 iterations. Wow. All of my products. So they basically came with me immediately when the lab samples came in, they went to the salon. Yeah. So everything's delivered to the salon and we were, well, Kenny gets his too because he's not a hairdresser who thinks he's a hairdresser. But who's the most helpful with the feedback?

38:56I'm not a businessman and I think I'm a businessman. So we're passing over. Well, that is helpful. My clients, my clients have really, truly been my heroes. Yeah. You know, they're my superheroes, my clients, all of them. And would they get a little to take home and you? I basically would use it. Yeah, but they all want it. Yeah. And every time what's kind of great is every time I would give them the product, they'd be like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And that's like just seeing me seeing that. I was like, oh, it's like for me, it's just another lab sample. But they were like, it was gold. It was something that nobody else has.

39:35Yeah. So I'm really excited to sort of like give that energy. For sure. And all my products are performance products, products that we're all familiar with. We're all familiar with a pair of jeans. Yeah. Like, you know, we wore skinny jeans years ago. Now we're wearing wide leg jeans. I'm basically just taking the classics and updating them. I'm updating them with science. With my formulas, being in the lab is my happy place and playing with the scientists in the lab is really, really fun. Yeah. So everything that I have is a classic take on a classic. Right. Oh, yeah. Got to bring that French girl don't care.

40:16Yeah. Quality to it, you know? I always call it day old hair same day. Yeah, yeah. And I really do. And it is my look. Like I want to give that it gives that sort of, you know, Amber Valletta and Shalom Harlow and Kate Moss in the 1995 Gucci Tom Ford runway show. Yeah, I would love to see your mood board for this brand. Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. Which one? There's so many. Well, that's what I can do a mood board. Yeah. Oh, I can. I can. I can do a mood board and I can pull references. Yes. Like you don't even know. I'm talking Porsche ads from the 70s. Incredible. So that was for the blue bottle. Yeah.

40:56Amazing. Yeah, yeah. No, we definitely, for my logo, we hired a girl named Charlotte de la Rue and she does album covers in Paris. She works, she does like French album covers. Amazing. And I found her and I reached out to her and she sent us and she kind of is the one that I picked the French blue and the sort of 70s font. And I wanted my name to be upside down, upside down and backwards because I'm I can't take myself serious. I really wanted it in all lowercase also. Yeah. There's a lot of fighting that you do when it comes to doing all of this kind of stuff. So it looks amazing. It looks amazing.

41:37I can't wait to get it in my hair. I know. And I what I'm excited about this for you as well, because I feel like you're going to be doing a lot more education. you're going to be out there more than you even have been. I'm already loving your TikToks, so I can't wait for this era. Your tips are just amazing. It's just like soundbite a minute, right? Yeah. Tomorrow's hair today or whatever you say. Day old hair, same day. Well, congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm so happy for you. And I feel like the timing is right, you know? Thank you. Yeah. You know what? The time is the time.

42:12Yeah. When is it a good time to do anything? when the time is right. When you want to. It's a great time right now because we always say, even though there's so many beauty products on the market, the cream always rises to the top. And the people who have been doing this for four decades, it's like, you really know what's up. So I feel like people are going to want to try this. And as long as the formulas are good, which we know they are, that's going to keep them coming back. So like, you're pretty much set. You're very sweet. You're set. We're having a lot of fun and everyone's super, super supportive.

42:44yeah and like rose is a great product and we love it and jen atkins like i mean she's just skyrocketed to the top with her product yeah you know i who knows if this works great if it doesn't like you know i'm not gonna say that i didn't try and and we're definitely doing the work that it takes to do it and and kudos to anybody who has put any product out there because it is not an easy. It's a lot of, I dream about it. I have nightmares about it. It definitely does. And it is a labor of love for sure. Yeah. Well, you know, we mentioned before that you're a celebrity hairstylist, but you're a salon owner and you're in the salon every day cutting hair.

43:27So let's chat a little bit about some of your clients' cuts and the inspiration. We have to start with the viral cunty little bob for Leslie Bibb on White Lotus. I'm obsessed. I will give a caveat, though, that I think you need to also have a cunty little jawline to pull this off. Double chins look great with a cunty little bob, but I defer to you. By the way, it is. But like it's we can just say a cunty bob. And I am still the person that pulls out a picture in a magazine and will show you. Unfortunately, nowadays things have changed a little bit and they come out but here's your cunty bob like if you were to do this length on you yeah okay airdrop that to me oh i will find i can find a picture for everybody okay i need one yeah i need a picture no but i mean it's it's just obsessed so he's showing jill a picture of a model a model who's a size double just just just below the clavicle it's an a-line clavicle right and it's very like curled under right you know it's round breast and not cared she looks great i love it this is my girl now leslie bibb we have to ask what makes the cunty little bob a cunty bob well first of all her character.

44:52I mean, come on. I mean, she's an independent. Yes. Are we really going to talk about Trump tonight? Are we really going to talk about this? Do this the mouth and the eyes together. It's so good. It's so true. They filmed for a really long time, right? Did you fly there? No, actually, she was flying here. She was coming for her appointments here. Yeah. And she had, you know, she was doing Palm Royale and some stuff. So she had, it just worked. Yeah. Her schedule worked. And it was about every, she got her haircut about once every five or six weeks. Did you just giggle for hours about the cunty little bob?

45:40She said to me, she came into the salon and she goes, that was just, we didn't expect it. She was like, okay, you did the Rachel, but now you did the cunty little bob. Because I guess everybody on the show was calling it a cunty little bob. And I said, hold on, will you say that to my phone? And Ryan and I posted it and bam. Viral moment. Okay, but is there like a little flick to us? Tell us more about the cut. It's above the hairline. It's that sort of like, there's no safe place. It is an earlobe right below the earlobe in between the jawline bob. And so it is, but I think the character is really what drives it.

46:21Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. You know, it's her acting and she really brought that look to life and that character to life. And I know for a fact that Mike White, that haircut was in his head. Oh, really? Because I have another client that was up for that same part and who didn't get it because she wasn't willing to cut her hair into a short, cunty bob. That is, I'm just shocked. I feel like that happens all the time. Yeah, it was the hair was a... Whether you don't dye it, you don't want it to be curly. Yeah, the hair was a deal breaker. And Michelle Monaghan as a blonde. Yeah. Tracy Cunningham killed it.

47:05Yeah. She looks fantastic. Yeah, Tracy also does. They're all aging in reverse. Every one of them. It's amazing. They do all look really good. It's so good. I love this moment for Leslie. Yeah. Because she's just from popular to Ricky Bobby to, you know, the Palm Royale to White Lotus. I think she's having a really great moment and she's a great, great girl. And to see Sam Rockwell and her be able to be together and his character. I know. My God. I know. Incredible. Best show on television. It really is. I mean, and also in the salon. Yeah. We get to talk about it. Oh, yeah. Like, who isn't watching it?

47:46And every now and then there's one person like, yeah, I heard it's not good this season. What? And you're just like. I'm so obsessed with Mike White. I want to go back and watch a season of Survivor. Like, that's where I'm at. Well, and also how about Lisa from Blackpink? Yes. Like, there's so many little Easter eggs and so many of the characters and people. He brings them. I worked with him on The Good Girl. Oh, wow. And so I've known Mike White for a long time. Okay. It's not like we're in touch and talking all the time. Yeah, sure. But we've done the press tour for that. And then I did Molly Shannon's, her sort of clavicle bob for first season.

48:26Yeah. And she was like, I need to be rich and I'm rich and I have to look rich. That was my instructions. Because they can't really tell me anything about what's going to happen. It's not like they sent the script to me so that I like the morning show, I read the scripts. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. And so, you know what, you know, anytime you're working on a film, you get the script. So the vision of the character comes to you. Yeah. There's no this is on lockdown. Yeah.

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51:07Okay, we need to get some of your tips before we let you go. So what's a haircut you think everyone needs to try at least once? A bob. Yeah? Yeah. At the right length. I really do think everybody should try a bob. Yeah. You know, I don't think short hair is definitely for everybody, but I do love a short haircut. I love boy haircuts on girls. I think like Miley Cyrus looked great when I cut all her hair off. I think that's, I think there's like moments when short hair, Linda Evangelista has proven it. Kris Jenner proves it to us every day that it's a power cut. Michelle Williams. But I think that like a bob, like whether it's a cut bob or a cutty little bob, I think is a nice, you know, And then it will grow really healthy.

51:53A bob is always sort of a solution to really damaged hair or a bad haircut. So it's kind of... It's a reboot of sorts. It's sort of a reboot. So at whatever length, whether it's from clavicle or hairline. So I always think it's always, it's kind of a foolproof cut. What are you feeling for long hair these days? Oh, I like, for long hair, I'm liking long hair. Yeah. Like you discovered, rediscovered extensions or. Well, not necessarily, but say someone like you, who I can see your hair's up, Carleen. So it's OK. It's OK. She was blessed with you. Jill has this insane, thick hair. And sometimes when you cut it too short, it's harder to deal with.

52:41Yeah. But the longer your hair is, it's actually easier to deal with. So someone like you, where if you were like, I want to leave it long, what would you do? I would really like contour, face contour you, face frame you, really cut some long layers around your face, go in. I wouldn't touch the bottom. That's kind of what I'm doing right now is not even touching the bottom of the hair. No perimeter cutting, just interior and layering it and letting that sort of organic long hair, that Chloe girl long hair, that Sienna Miller, that Kate Moss, that sort of organic bottom. not that cut perimeter.

53:21Right. I like that organic bottom lately. It's a great, great inspo. We're going to save up some pennies and get you in for three to six months. We got you. No, I don't need to. That's true. I'll cut it for you. Yeah, you can cut it for me. It's fine. And we did have somebody in our DM saying, what is the, because I feel like curly girls kind of get ignored. What is the most current cut that you're feeling for curly girls? Shags. Yeah? Loving a shag. I love that too. I love a shag. Like, don't be afraid to cut it around your face. Don't be afraid to really, like, it's like a curly, lean into that natural hair and really release your curls and let them fly.

54:00And just let them go curly all over. So it's like face contouring, face framing. These are new words. Face contouring, face framing. Yeah. Contouring with your hair. Yeah. I love that. You can contour your face. Why not contour your face? with the layers around their face. You know, we have like I taught a class yesterday and we have like we have our eyes. We have our eyebrows. We have our cheekbones. We have our jaw. We have our necks. We have our clavicle. Like these are body parts that are sort of Easter eggs of where we let hair land. And I always try to teach people like these are land, you know, landing marks for the hair around the face that you can shape.

54:50Yeah. What's the best length? Well, you know. That girl needs like my consult now. I like it. When your neck starts going like this. I like your broad hair. I mean, you could have some face contouring layers. Okay. You could go there. I'll take it. Yeah. You could definitely play a little bit, go a little bit shorter. They're going to grow out. Yeah. It's going to make them healthy. Yeah, it's true, actually. I used to have like that longer bang. I haven't done that in ages. Yeah. And it's around your cheekbones around this. Yeah. Play with it a little. All right. Yeah. All right. This is hotly contested on social media.

55:24Side part versus center part in 2025. What are we doing? I am doing middle, off center and side. Okay. All of the above. There's no rules. There's, they are all, listen, Gucci 1995. 95. Like you give someone that look, it's amazing. That was a deep side part. Yeah. Middle parts are really cool and seventies vibe and they're super cool. I love that. Yeah. A little off center is kind of an awesome little take on, you know, like Jennifer is always an off center part. Yeah. Yeah. She's not a side. She's not a middle. She's an off center. So if you can't make your decision, try an off center part. Do like Jen.

56:06Yeah. Jen does. I mean, who doesn't want to look like Jen, Even if I was, I just think I am Jen. I think, I think like, what would I do to my hair? And she's just sort of like me as a girl. You've spent so many days on set and I need to know, like most recently you did the Gwyneth Paltrow Vanity Fair, right? What's the number one trick that we can steal from behind the scenes? Like something pros, like you always do, that we can borrow to make our own hair look killer. Like I noticed you did a video where you're like, this is what we do behind the scenes. Like when you're taking a photo, you like push it all forward.

56:38Well, I always like lean the head. I mean, it all kind of started with Jose Ebert. Oh, my God. I know. Let me just go way back. The hat. He uses a shake your head. Shake your head, darling. So a trick is put your head upside down. Yeah. Spray the shit out of it. Throw it up and then pull it from underneath. And you have this big lioness mane of hair. Yeah, it's true. You know, so like putting your head upside down and brushing it and spraying it is a trick. Leaning forward, spraying all the hair and then slowly lifting your head up and then just clearing the face up lightly. Like that really does.

57:21But don't go from behind because all the hair has been pushed forward. You know, teasing is always a good, you know, you always want to like, like elevate when you're working on a photo shoot. You always want to like add a little extra. Okay. We want to leave some time for a fun little TikTok game. So I'm going to ask you, you were so generous with your time and you shared so much great, like intimate details, everything. If you were to write a memoir, what would be something that you haven't told anyone about? A memoir. First of all, nobody would care. I could see it. Disagree. Really? Yeah. Oh, I don't even think.

58:02I think it would be like, I always think like I'm going to die and people are really like, oh, yeah, remember him? And then done. What? Yeah. No, first it's going to be like a coffee table book with these amazing haircuts, but also with words. A memoir that nobody knows about me. That's kind of, I kind of, I got the questions and I thought about it. I had a cheeky little answer, but something that they would know is I regret not having kids. Okay. That would be something that would be in my memoir. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. As I do, I'm really good with kids and I love kids and all my friends' kids, I, they just, I'm, I'm like a magnet to kids.

58:48They just like, cause I guess I'm like a child myself and I do definitely regret, But I'm, you know, I was 1983. I turned 18 years old and AIDS was this, you know, so I was just dodging. We weren't thinking about having kids and having relations. We were just dodging, not dying. So it was a different era for sure. And so navigating that time and then like the next decade, we were like, then we, they figured it out ish. People were dying. So I definitely am like my biggest regret is not having kids. That would be in a memoir. You're so like honest and intimate and just like give your heart into everything.

59:33And you've really done that today. And I just am so thankful. And I also want to say, I don't think that's it's too late. Robert De Niro. Hello. I know you're right. Andy Cohen. Yeah. He's, you know, got young kids. Dwayne Yoakum. Yeah. Dwayne Yoakum. Yeah. I'm just saying, Chris. That chapter could be left out of your memoir. If all works out well, we'll see. Who knows? This is your baby. Yeah, this is my baby right now. For now. I'm breathing a baby. This is going to bring in some nanny money. You guys will be getting, of course. We can't wait to share this with you. I can't wait to try it. Thank you for having me.

1:00:12This has been a joy. Thank you so much. It's been an honor. We've always wanted to meet you. And to get to spend this much time with you is so nice. Thank you. You guys are really sweet. And we're going to do a fun little exclusive TikTok with Chris. So be sure to check out our TikTok page as well. Thank you so much. Of course. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening. You can find details on every product mentioned in today's episode, along with our exclusive promo codes on our blog at BreakingBeautyPodcast.com. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter. Every episode will be delivered directly to your inbox so you won't miss a single thing.

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1:01:32Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.