How-to Think (And Shop!) Like a Cosmetic Chemist with Glow by Ramón

22:09Does it smell good? And then beyond that, I start looking at the benefits and what they're trying to sell you on. And at the end of the day, a moisturizer is going to moisturize. no matter how you put it, it's going to increase hydration. Like no one is revolutionizing a moisturizer. So some of those claims do get outlandish. And then that's when I start looking at the price point. And I'm like,$120 for this? Yeah. For no reason. Yeah. I'm not going to name a name, but I had a friend send me a brand. And it was like this Derm brand that just launched at$230 trying to sell you this miracle. But all the claims were literally, this is a moisturizer.

22:43And also like as much as some people want to be like, oh, it's like a patented ingredient. It's not hard to patent things. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So that's what I always look at is what are the claims people are trying to make? Yeah. And then what price are they trying to sell it at? But what sells me is just, does this feel good? I do want to touch on something you said, which is about, which is what we get asked all the time. Like what makes a formulation worth a certain price point? We get asked a lot about the difference between drugstore, medical grade, luxury. And like, is the higher price point ever justified?

23:14It really depends. to me, coming from this side of things, formulas are really not expensive to make. If you're, I'm trying to think of how to word this, like fundamentally, like if you're looking at how much a product costs to dismanufacture, we're not looking at more than a dollar, two dollars, maybe higher price point if manufacturing is like really intricate or a specific active is just really expensive. So what you're really buying then is like the markup, the marketing cost, the packaging cost, the, again, the miracle, the story they're trying to sell to you. So products aren't expensive.

23:42And that's why certain price points I can't justify a lot of times. But then where it really hits home for me is then what are they doing behind just selling and marketing the product? And that's where the clinicals come in. Clinical trials are really expensive. And so I have a lot of indie friends who they've launched brands and I'm like, this product is so expensive. And in my opinion, I'm like, sometimes they're doing a little bit too much with the formulations. I'm like, this could have been simpler. But it's really they spend$100 ,000,$200 ,000 on rounds of clinicals to verify claims. And therefore you have to recoup that cost.

24:14So that's where, to me, the price point actually can make a difference. That's a good point. Yeah. So it's not about the raw material, but it's still going into the product development. Yeah. Packaging is also a big one. They want to do custom packaging or like very unique packaging. And that's where things Pat McGrath was a good example of that. Yeah. She did that lipstick where the bullet comes straight up and down. It doesn't twist. And that was a custom component for her. Yeah. That's also like the box for my product is also handmade. But anyway, that's another story. So we've talked about pricing.

24:49Now, what about what makes an active ingredient active versus a regular ingredient? This is a question, like, oh, that's a really good one, where even on our end, it's like, how do you really justify this? Because functional ingredients are the ingredients that just make the product the product. We sometimes work off of something called like a chassis or like a base formulation. So like here's a very basic emulsion. And the idea is you have like the water, usually something to thicken up the water. We're talking like a regular like lotion, for example. And then it's like, are the humectants part of that chassis?

25:19But in humectants, they kind of have an impact on formulation, like propylene glycol. I think it's really good for stabilizing in freeze-thaw stability. So like basically it makes sure that if your product has to go through really cold conditions, it's going to still maintain stability. But propylene glycol is also humectant. So there is like a really weird gray area. You also have the primary components of the oil phase, the emulsifiers, and that's it. So then things beyond that that have a biological impact on the skin is where you start getting into like the active claim. So like humectants, as simple as they are, they are actives.

25:53They are. OK. Treatment ingredients like anything for brightening or texture, all that. Those are actives. Okay. Yeah. It's also tricky because it's like, that's an active ingredient, but technically like Health Canada or probably the FDA wouldn't like that term because then it wouldn't be a cosmetic, right? right? I think the big thing is just drug claims. There's obviously things that are cosmetic ingredients and things that are drug ingredients. And like glycerin is an ingredient that is a cosmetic ingredient. At a certain percentage, you can then start claiming it's a skin protectant. Same thing with Vaseline or petrolatum.

26:33So it's kind of like A, concentration, B, how you're trying to sell the product as well. This is where like the wording comes into play, like treats acne targets blemishes salicylic acid two percent can do both but that wording is what makes it the drug versus the cosmetic yeah which is the drug language acne if it's having a specific like uh impact on a skin condition a disease so like acne uh-huh reduces pigmentation that is the drug claim improves the appearance of dark spots yeah there's a very clear definition of a cosmetic does this uh-huh and if you're selling as a cosmetic you have to be really diligent about the wording so i work with a lot of brands sephora has the most clear you cannot say this say this instead and it literally has to be like the look of the appearance yeah right is hyaluronic acid an active ingredient i mean technically yeah it's hydrating so any humectant any what about an occlusive like lanolin or something uh correct but then it's like especially for me in my opinion is lanolin active i think it's a skin protective no yeah but also it's lanolin's a really unique ingredient in that the structure of the actual like compound that it is also confers humectant benefits, but it also like a functional ingredient.

27:40It low key, if I remember correctly, I haven't used it in this capacity, but like in my training. Someone mentioned it can also to some degree work as an emulsifier. Okay. So that's where some oil phase ingredients, they function to stabilize an emulsion. They help to create or increase viscosity in a formulation that's functional. They're also great at like moisturizing and occluding. That's where it's like a, is that an active or not? Yeah, that is a real great area. Yeah, I've always wondered that because I'm just like, what are things that are just like not necessarily stabilizing the formula, but just doing very basic things versus like, to me, a vitamin C is inactive because you see what it's doing on your face.

28:16And that's a very clear like this is helping to brighten. It's helped acne. It's helping with texture. That is inactive in the most clear way. Yeah, it's functional. Yeah, I guess on your skin versus just the formula, maintaining the formula. Yeah, so I was going to listen to this and be like, this kid is crazy. What are you talking about? No, but that's the thing about science is like, it's never like 100%. It's like, it could be this, it could be that. It's always evolving and changing. And that's why. Well, I don't think scientists would probably. It's usually science is science, right? It's just our interpretation of it.

28:48They say that the definition of science is that you're basically always open to it changing and evolving and that it's never black and white. We're always arguing with each other. That's where it is. 100%. So like, well, it could be this is because I had a big project where it was develop a project or develop a product. And this specific argument was one I had to have about. But it's doing this for the formulation. They're like, yeah, but it also does this for the skin. So therefore, that's an active. And I'm like, got it. OK, we touched a nerve there.

29:23I'd like to know from you which ingredients are expensive, like genuinely expensive, and if they're worth it or not, and which ones are inexpensive, but some brands charge a lot for them. Do you know where I'm going with this? I am. This gets really complicated, I think. Part Part of it comes down to how is the ingredient made or sourced. Okay. And that factors in a lot of the costs. Like if it's coming from like a bioengineering company, we have a company that we use called RAN, R-A-H-N, RAN, RAN. They do a lot of like bioengineering. Actives are very expensive, but they also do a lot of like clinical and testing to like show like this is really cool, really fun.

30:02Look at all the benefits. And they are Swiss. Okay. So just that in itself makes it expensive. Yeah. And then now, oh, this is why a lot of brand pricing had to go up this year is the import. A lot of things are not made here in the U.S. or from European or Asian companies. So that factors into the pricing. And when it comes to like ingredients that are more expensive than they need to be, it gets really interesting because you start factoring in like delivery systems or other things. Not just the sourcing itself, but more so like complexes. Like it's the big thing. You asked the question earlier, like, are you good inky?

30:35What do you see? You can't look at an ingredient and be like, oh, is that ingredient? because actually a lot of times it's part of a larger ingredient complex. Yeah, you'll often hear that like peptide complex or what have you. And it can mean a lot of different things. Yeah, even with emulsifiers, you'd be like, I know that's an emulsifier, but I actually don't know if that company just bought that emulsifier as is or it's part of a larger like, just throw this into your thing and it'll perfectly emulsify because there's five emulsifiers in this ingredient complex. So that's when the pricing for things can go up some more.

31:00Yeah. So sometimes it's just like scarcity, yield if it's a natural plant extract, how that extract is... Sourced. Sourced. Yeah. A lot of those factors come into play. So it's never like a clear answer. Right. Okay. Is there any ingredient that you won't formulate with? Why or why not? No. A, I work for brands and therefore I am just like the receiver. I am the one that makes it happen because you as a brand are coming to me. So I'm just going to do whatever it is that you like. And I'll try my best to like fulfill your vision. But also B, like there's just, I do this because I like it. And therefore...

31:37It's always fun to play with like any variety of ingredient, categories of formulation and see there's nothing that's like inherently like bad or just like I'm over that I won't formulate with it. Yeah. What's the most underrated ingredient in your opinion that maybe needs to be more beloved out there? Lanolin. Yeah, there's a lot. I feel like it's a lot of the simple ones people overlook. Glycerin's getting a moment now. thankfully glycerin's just a really amazing product by itself as a kind of supporting character in a lot of formulations like fun facts glycerin's used a lot in sunscreens and just that increase in hydration helps to even out the like topical topography of the skin which helps to get a more even film thus increasing spf for example so like glycerin superstar okay yeah what about the like an overrated ingredient that you think's used a lot and you're like i don't know why this is a big deal.

32:29Hyaluronic acid always comes to mind just because I think there's a lot more, a lot other ingredients that do better or that just tell a better story, in my opinion. So it's like hyaluronic acid hydrates, but I'm like polyglutamic acid is right there. Ectoin is getting a moment, thankfully. And I'm like, that's such a great multifaceted ingredient. What does that one do again? Ectoin. It's like, it does a lot of things. It's like a skin protector slash humectant slash antioxidant, I believe. You don't need a lot, like a half percent. Gives you like really, really good results. A lot of data supports it even at that lower percentage.

33:01What do you make of percentages being on the label? Like I remember a few years ago, this would be like a question we got a lot in our DMs, like what percent is the hyaluronic acid in the formula? Like it was like the ordinary effect. What do you make of percentages on a label? I mean, that's not your job to like know basically people just because again, sometimes things come back to the complex, like, okay, realistically in a product, it might only have a really small percentage of that specific active. That's because it's part of a bigger complex where it is featured at that higher number and that higher number ensures actual penetration or efficacy or whatever.

33:35So even though the active itself is at a lower number, you're still getting a good benefit from that. Also, sometimes I always call it like the higher, faster, louder effect. Like people just want like high octane and that can sometimes be a negative thing like irritation and that irritation leads to other issues down the line. So I always tell people like, just don't worry about that. Do you see the benefits you want from the product or like they're not disclosing the percentage, but look at the clinicals that actually show efficacy. Worry about that. Just make sure the product does what it needs to do.

34:03You're getting the effect that you want from it. Don't worry about the numbers. Are there any other ingredients that you're excited about right now? Honestly, I've been like in a really sunscreen specific space. Yeah. That's just like my main category. So right now it's just getting BEMT here in the U.S. hopefully this year. That's the trade name is Tinosorb S, or it's going to be sold as Parcel Shield here. It's a broad spectrum filter that's been used overseas for like 20, 30 years, and we're just not getting it in the US. So hopefully it's going to make, well, I say hopefully like I've not worked with it.

34:35Hopefully it's going to make formulas more elegant. It's also going to be GRACE certified, which by the FDA standards, that's generally recognized as safe and effective, which the only two filters that are currently GRACE are titanium and zinc mineral filters. So with that, hopefully that means the clean beauty people are going to be fine with us using Tinosorb S in mineral formulations, which that just means reduced white cast. Yeah. Oh, okay. More elegant. For sure. Kind of going back to the, obviously there was all this drama in the sunscreen space because, you know, the formulations were not living up to what it said on the label.

35:14and so maybe you can speak to that as well because I know that there's also like a 2.0 of the drama of like who's responsible that's I funnily enough I seem of this but I'm just like that's not my circus not my monkeys right now I know other creators like Lab Muffin Hannah English they've done a lot of content specifically breaking this down and trying to really objectively give details on the situation formulating mineral sunscreens is not easy I'll start there. And also on this end of things, you want to get a good SPF value. You also really want the consumer to have an enjoyable experience.

35:52And so when you start compromising those things, or when you're trying to make compromise to make both those things happen, that's where certain things can fall through. But fundamentally, we've seen this kind of issue happen a few times now. There was a big American company, AMA. They had a big scandal like, what, 10, 15 years ago? Korean sunscreens had a big scandal about five years ago. And the Korean solution was they started doing two third-party testing rounds in different markets. So one Korea, one Europe, or one Europe, one somewhere else. So they're like, it's not us doing it. It's not even the manufacturer.

36:25We're going to two different third-party companies. And look, we're getting these values. Aside from that, now we're seeing it with choice. Yeah. And it does seem unfortunate. I would say as like a brand founder, I don't have a sunscreen. But if you were to go get it tested and you can't reliably do that, and like, how are you going to audit that company to say, OK, well, did you actually do your job right? Like, if you're paying them, it just seems like they should do what you paid them to do contractually. And I wonder, again, just getting to the U.S. now and coming from like, to me, I'm just like, just send the testing overseas then.

37:05we have a lot of things have a lot of innovation has happened recently where again if you're developing a sunscreen you have a really reliable in vitro method now just to kind of get you a pre-testing uh value okay i can at least confirm it'll hopefully be about out of 50 yeah so that takes a little bit of the risk of sunscreen developments out of your hands so that when you go through in vivo testing you're a lot more sure confident yeah i'm like can you just like send it to europe it's a lot cheaper over there is that probably what will happen spain does a lot of SPF testing. So that's like a lot of the Korean brands I do around in Korea and around in Spain.

37:39Yeah. Okay. Interesting. The one thing is just the way we do SPF here as an OTC versus a cosmetic in other markets that really affects a lot of the cost and a lot of the regulations and even just, again, getting new filters approved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're excited about that one. Can we ask you really quickly about Avobenzone? Because I saw that you You shared a recent article that said that proved that evobenzone now has, quote, negligible absorption, no toxicity or hormonal concerns. So what does that mean for sunscreen formulations going forward? Because you seem to be excited about this.

38:15Well, it's more so we all know this. We as in like the internal people. Chemical sunscreens are some of the most scrutinized. But in that regard, those are some of the most constantly reassessed for safety. And I just went to a big sunscreen conference in Orlando this summer where this is one of the presentations. Like, here are the top six most popular chemical sunscreens. Here, we've done reassessments. Here is the final verdict on these. Avobenzone was one of the six. And all of them, all of them, this is avobenzone. This is octocrylene, homosale, octosale. All of them were shown to have negligible absorption, no toxicity, like all proven safe.

38:50It's interesting that avobenzone was the one that was giving the spotlight right now. But avobenzone is just such a unique filter. It's internationally used because it is one of the best UVA1 absorbers. So for me, it's just like if we just have the receipts and the insurance for people that these ingredients are safe and they're for such a special reason. And therefore, we encourage you to use them. I just, I love seeing that. I love people like knowing the products that they use are not going to cause harm. And people, they don't know the test happens behind the scenes. So this is like the answer to a few years ago, the FDA had issued a warning that further testing needed to happen with chemical sunscreens because according to them, it was being absorbed into the bloodstream.

39:32But they had said what they don't know is whether that whether it has any meaningful impact that could be harmful to you. Is that correct? Basically, fundamentally, it's like what that was, hey, we just need more documentation, more receipts. Just assure people, because yet to your point, like there are concerns and there's some indication that this is happening. But it goes back to they were on the grace list and then they were taken off for that reason. And just to get back on the list is going to cost tens of millions of dollars and all this time. I think this year something got put through that could potentially allow them to consider non-animal testing data for safety and toxicology.

40:11but yeah basically it's just this is a step in that direction yeah so it's kind of like helping to close the loop on on that question that was out there correct that's not going to say that avobenz is going to be gray certified now but it's kind of like hey look it's safe it is it's more like evidence that yeah what's that taylor swift quote though this it's like when something blows up it's like every headline negative right like avobenz on watch out but it's like this news snore no one's talking about it it's like when the truth is revealed it's really quiet was how taylor puts it and that is true it really is because the only people sharing it were cosmetic chemists you know and again it's just the yeah because of the role able benzone plays and just a lot of unnecessary like fear behind it's like this is good news and that it reassures you like it's all good finally you can trust us we've known this like we yeah been the wants to tell you, but.

41:06Yeah, but it's not making headlines, as Jill's saying, except for here on Breaking Beauty Podcast, everyone. We got you, Bill. What was the latest eureka moment or what was one eureka moment that you had in the lab that you can share? Was there ever a time where you were like, maybe you had a hypothesis and you're like, what if I did this and this? And it was like, wow. I'm thinking. Do you ever blow yourself away? Well, sometimes you make something you're like oh wow I did that yeah yeah for me I can't think of like the latest one but like I remember when I was first so my big thing like you mentioned earlier was the inclusivity thing and I've always focused on color formulation and sunscreen formulation for deeper skin and now we're a lot more like oh okay this is a thing but back then it was still kind of new and that was utilization of blue pigments to really create more warmth and more realistic skin tone undertones in the deeper range but unfortunately the main pigments to do so ultramarine blue you can't use in otc drugs which means in mineral sunscreens tinted mineral sunscreens you cannot use that blue pigment that's why you only see those limited limited universal shades and mineral well also just because every time you do anytime you launch a sunscreen if there's multiple shades each shade has to have its own testing done so that's one thing we could do a whole episode talking about this basically also once you try to start making deeper shades of mineral sunscreens a you already have x percentage of mineral filters that you need for the spf you need so much black to counteract that and then that it does create more of a grayness because the white the black and then all the other iron oxides blue does a lot to actually bring it back but you're just going against so much white yeah that then you have to actually in a full formula what in the lighter shades but you'd only need this much iron oxides to make a pigment in a deeper shade you need to use a lot more just because you are using so much of the other shades and of course you only have 100 to work with literally so then you're starting to like reduce all the other ingredients yeah and you can't because it's a drug you have to have the certain levels right correct yeah so you just like for somebody with uh who's like a six on the fitzpatrick you would just recommend a chemical sunscreen that's going to be the most like yeah straightforward no white cast also some people have sensitivities and therefore you have to it's a very being a content creator is very hard like the whole bean soup thing or it's like this looks great for me what about for me yeah everyone it's very difficult indeed what would you say is one of the biggest challenges in your industry as a cosmetic chemist that you think people aren't talking about enough as an insider in terms of challenge i can't think of one off the top of my head frustrations a lot of us have though is just like it's hard to be innovative I guess and for example again a lot of us don't have brands very few of like what there's like a few brands now but really again we're the conduit between someone who wants to make something and that product getting to the consumer and in my opinion just like a lot of people who have no business starting brands or making products or doing it and it's kind of like a also it's funny because chemists don't get paid very well.

44:20And that's actually one of the big things. I have students come up to me like, oh, I want to like become a cosmetic chemist. I'm like, do you enjoy being broke? Because unless you're getting high up in seniority and or working in specific sectors of this industry, I know people who worked in labs and they're like, the pay was bad. So now I'm just the person that goes and sells ingredients because that actually makes money. Right. Yeah. That's something that people don't talk about either. That's why it's like, there's so few of us that do content now, but a lot of us chose or realized this was a good route.

44:46So now content's our main job and we consult or formulate on the side unless we have our own brands. Right. Would you say most of your time is spent making content now? Yeah. Yeah. But thankfully, like I get to record in the lab and like I use that for content. For me, a big part of my platform. So going back to besides just being in the lab, one of the other things and I think what's more unique for my content compared to the other chemists is it actually was more of like an activism thing slash an outreach. I really wanted to like inspire kids to pursue this and make it really transparent and visible of a career for them so that they could be like, oh, this is interesting.

45:17I like this concept. Let me look into this more because we need young people. We need young people. We need fresh faces. We need more diversity in the industry. Yeah. And I like that you make your content fun. That's the goal. It seems fun what you do and that's why I really like watching it. It's not dry at all. Everyone needs to go follow you. There are the people that do the very dry, very like, this is science. I'm like, I mean, that's great for you. Yeah, yeah, that's fine for you. It's more approachable. Can I ask you something that's a bit of a hot topic? We talked earlier about how scientists, they like to get into it with each other sometimes.

45:49What do you make of the friction you'll see online between cosmetic chemists or between a brand founder and cosmetic chemist and an esthetician? You see it sometimes in the comment section going. Correct. All I'm going to say on this is that until you have been in a lab making a product, working with an MPD brief, you have seen a product go from ideation to market. I think that limits your ability to talk in certain situations or opine on certain things. it is one thing to know something theoretically per se but in the actual practicality and the actual like physicality of doing it it's very different i always use an analogy of like i don't know why on facebook i got into like this weird sector of like a lot of my like recommended posts were like flight simulator videos oh and the comments being like why did he do this technique for the landing and blah blah blah and i'm like but have you ever flown a plane yeah like those are very different worlds okay i mean it feels like that a lot of times people talking about things they don't know enough about.

46:49And they're like, well, did the research and the textbooks say this? And I'm like, yeah, but like actually like executing that in like a lab setting and making a product for consumers. It's a very different ballpark. I need to ask you about a video that I that you uploaded recently, and it was all of your most emptied skincare products in 2025. It was the most thorough empties tea video I've ever seen. You even included how many times you emptied it and like why you loved each product. And there was like 10 products on the list and yeah I was like wow this must have taken days on end for you to film and record what is your most emptied product of all time it's surprisingly like therabreath therabreath mouthwash the like light blue one okay but skincare sorry therabreath it's the beauty of joseph and aqua fresh the relief sun that for me it's like I always relate to things yeah I just throw one product on my face have it do 17 things and also I know it's gonna work under makeup that's the one yeah so i think and i think the number is actually higher i just couldn't think of a specific the pink one or the green one that's the blue one or blue one blue one okay um yeah that is it's the korean one that's right because they reformulated the north american one right yeah i don't love it as much i actually for a sephora sunscreen that the cheapest sunscreen they have and it's water resistant that's a really cute one but no the one i emptied the most of was the korean aqua fresh yeah i think i emptied six tubes of it is what i said in the video but i more in real life.

48:13Wow. Incredible. Incredible. All right. So really quickly, we're going to do a rapid fire fun game with you. Save or splurge cosmetic chemist edition. Okay. Cleanser. Save or splurge? Save. Okay. Serum. Save or splurge? Depends, but usually splurge. Okay. Eye cream. Save or splurge? Wait, which one? We need to know what you splurge are. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I forgot to ask the follow-up. A lot of things are not as expensive as they should be or as they are. Again, this comes back to like peptides are expensive. If the delivery system is there and the efficacy is proven, that's where I'm like. So I did a whole video talking about like peptides I actually like endorse, support.

48:51And it's like Medicaid was on there. Educated Mess was on there. But then you also have like the Ordinary's Growth Factor Serum. Very affordable. But yeah, like exfoliating, retinoids, those, they don't have to be so expensive. Yeah. That's where I'm like, don't. Yeah. We love the Medicaid one. So good. Eye cream saver splurge. Save. What's your favorite? this is a really loaded question because i i don't use eye creams like that so like for example uh haru haru has like a really cheap really affordable gel one it's such a gorgeous texture we'll try and find it and link to that and also like the keels avocado one oh yeah classic yeah body cream save or splurge save i have a handful naturium's uh retinol one vaseline radian x that entire line is stunning have you tried the cycler ones no i've talked a lot about that brand we can talk off after off camera.

49:36I haven't tried them yet. It's an interesting concept to me. The smells are great. It's nice. I'm obsessed with one of their body lotions right now. Yeah. I think from, if you're interested in like the experiential, how you feel instantaneously, I think you will really like that line. Okay. Yeah. Sunscreen, save or splurge? Always save. Yeah. Never splurge. Sunscreen should not be that expensive. Yeah. And we kind of covered this, but acne treatment, save or splurge? Save. Yeah. Basically a lot of things are based off like very clinically effective ingredients. You don't have to spend a lot. You don't have to spend a lot.

50:09Like Thayer's, they have these little acne pads,$10. Amazing. Okay. What about moisturizer? I choose to say save that moisturizers and lip balms are some of the most subjective products when it comes to what people like and what they want. I've done like entire like market research and consumer surveys. That's where it gets really specific and particular. So it's what you like, what you want. I say save. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. And everybody check out this episode on YouTube, which is Breaking Beauty Podcast. And follow Glow by Ramon on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Thank you.

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