Summer Skincare Hot Takes with Celebrity Esthetician Renée Rouleau: Why You Shouldn't Quit Retinol, The Truth About Face Mists & Why She Never Skips Foundation

24:52I mean, that's always the thing, right? Well, we have to ask you about Sabrina Carpenter. She is a client of over 10 years. I was reading some of your posts again on Instagram, and you had said that your goal is to keep her skin bump-free and smooth and poreless or something like that. You can tell me. What are the top three products and tools that you use to maintain her skin? Because truly it does look just like one even plate. Like just so the pores are just like so even. So whenever I think of like, quote unquote, beautiful skin or like, what's the goal here? Like, you know, my hands aren't giving facelifts, right?

25:31I mean, I can't replace what Kris Jenner's doctor did with my hands, right? So my goal is always to keep it as smooth and as bump free because, you know, makeup, even with makeup, if you still have bumps and clogged pores and breakouts and things like that, you can still see it in her makeup. So it's always about keeping the pores as squeaky clean as possible. And then, you know, every clogged pore, you know, especially someone like her where, you know, my clients who are on stage, right, like Coachella and I mean, sweaty and hot, you know, I mean, talk about clogged pore city, right? Yeah. Yeah.

26:07I saw her concert last year at Madison Square Garden. It's like she didn't stop for one second dancing, right? So it's like two hours of dancing, stage makeup, everything. Exactly. And heavy makeup that has to wear, right? And so it's all, so in every clogged pore, which oftentimes can come from makeup and sunscreens and every clogged pore is a breakout waiting to happen, right? And so it's all about keeping the pores really clean. Like I said, you know, I have a lot of products with salicylic acid in it, which is my favorite. A lot of extractions, right? Because that's really the only way to get a lot of that out.

26:39You have to lodge out that clogging, trying to prevent breakouts. So I'm really a part of all my clients' skin journey. So I'm not just a big part of it. It's not just, hey, I'm seeing you for an hour. Do and go. Right. But it's like, what do you have going on in your life, right? Like, oh, you're going to be on stage. You're going to be sweating. You're on tour. like what what how can we manage all of that when your lifestyle gets gets in the way and so you know we have a product called rapid response detox mask which is like you know the go-to after you know when she washes her face at night it's a golden one it has tea tree and manuka in it and but it's really good for reducing surface bacteria to help prevent breakouts it's more for prevention but it hydrates the skin as well.

27:28But yeah, so just trying to keep the pores clean. I would say that's the biggest thing. So extractions, the mask you mentioned, and salicylic acid in there, surely, somewhere. Yeah, yeah. I'm guessing? Yeah, so we have a product called BHA clarifying serum or pore and wrinkle perfecting serum, depending on your skin type, and a Levon acid serum with salicylic is really good to kind of, while you sleep, kind of help to clear out some clogged pores. Like every night or? No, like three nights a week. Yeah. alternating with you know some hydrating serums and some other things so but yeah so exfoliation I mean I love acids I just think there's nothing that gives you that instant smoothness like an acid so yeah what do you think about exfoliating peel pads they're back with a vengeance I don't know if you have them in your line but I just I don't yeah I see them everywhere now right I like them for the body you do yeah I for the face too dehydrating on the face okay yeah a lot of makeup Artists will do it right before like they do a makeup application.

28:25Yeah. So but they're really dehydrating and they kind of make the skin look really tight, which for under makeup, having that tightness like a long time ago, speaking of my blog, I used to what I used to say was use like something really drying the night before. So like it could even be sleep with a prescription retinoid without moisturizer. And so the skin gets really tight the next day. so like things that like use strong drying products like things that because it makes the skin look so tight and it makes the pores yeah well and it just makes the pores even look smaller right yeah but so that's more like a makeup hack true true versus zippy peel pads makeup artist doesn't care about your skin in the long term exactly they're like let me get this canvas guy yeah exactly

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32:53Let's talk about summer redness because I have rosacea. Yes, we know you do. And that's the biggest thing that I deal with. So I wonder if you have any tips for how to manage that. Yes. So I've actually kind of switched gears a little bit more through the years on how I think about rosacea. Interesting. And I for a long time, it was about like using ingredients and products that could kind of help be more calming on the skin surface. But I really realized that it's really more about keeping a strong barrier, which in theory, I mean, you should do both. Right. But like the concept of barrier care.

33:34I mean, let's talk about barrier care. Right. Like it's such a buzzword. Right. I mean, it's just a new fancy way of saying like, don't have dry skin. But certainly also for oily skin people, no one's speaking to them about barrier at all. You know, and a lot of the formulas, moisturizers for barrier repair, an oily person can never use it. Right. Right. We have a moisturizer on our line that we don't discriminate against our oily skin people. We want them to have a good barrier, too, and get all the fun stuff. But I really have noticed that when people can kind of lay off the actives and keep their barrier in check, keep really good water in the skin and oil for those who need it.

34:20But really about water. I mean, a lot of products for barrier repair are really focused just more on putting oil and those lipids into the skin. But we can't forget that all skin types need water. Skin cells are like fish. They need water to live. And when you put something on that's really hydrating, so hyaluronic acid, whatever, but good humectants, like that is kind of the foundation and then layer the oil on top. But a lot of people forget the water part and they just get obsessed with like a skin oil or a heavy cream. Yeah. But like water is so important for barrier health. So my point is, is I have noticed a lot more improvement with my red clients when ever since I started formulating products more for barrier and making sure to infuse a lot of water into the skin.

35:07Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's really why I came out with Cassette La Pomade is because it is a semi-occlusive that locks in the water. Right. And that's how I use it. So I use like a water based essence or whatnot beforehand. hand. Yeah. And then I use that on top just to prevent trans epidermal water loss. Correct. And then I still can get the gentle retinol effect. That's really the only way that I can use retinol. Yeah. And your skin's beautiful, by the way. If you can't see your skin is beautiful. Thank you so much. And it's a beautiful formula, by the way. Oh, thank you very much. Congratulations.

35:38Thank you. So that's a bit of a sidebar. But I have noticed that a lot, a lot of products have come out this year tackling redness. Like all the big brands like Dr. Idris, Joe Skin, all it's like they all have kind of gone in on this category. Yeah. Are there certain like ingredients you would recommend or just certain habits in the summer? Yeah. So I mean, it's, you know, we know that heat exacerbates redness. Yeah. And when you think about heat in the skin, you know, when you touch your skin, certainly after being outside all day, but somebody who is more redness prone, the temperature of their skin is actually hotter, right?

36:14Yeah. And think about, I mean, heat evaporates water, right? And so that's all the more reason why you need to infuse water into the skin post outdoor activity. Like we have a toner called moisture infusion toner. And we suggest people put it into ice cube trays with a little small little popsicle stick or something and roll it on the face. And so you're getting all that water because water alone won't really hydrate the skin compared to a formula that has really good humectants in it. Right. Right. So don't just take an ice cube or an ice roller. Right. But you're actually infusing good humectants into the skin while lowering the skin temperature.

36:57Yeah. So that's a really nice thing to do in the summertime. Yeah. I think Sovy Pavik came out with them. She has the frozen toner pods. Frozen toner pods as well. So that could be something to try. Those are good for sure. And we ought to talk to you about the sunburn that you got on your recent trip. I mean, that was on your Instagram and your whole chest was the color of your hair, which for people who aren't watching this or Renee's hair is a lovely shade of pink. So what happened? And my chest was a lovely shade of lobster. Yes. So, OK, so as of now, I think it's up to like 350 ,000 views.

37:33And for the most part, it was like really positive. But people were really like, how could you be an esthetician and get the sunburn, right? Right. So I so for context, like I was always that wearing UV hat clothing. Like I grew up in Minnesota, Wisconsin. Like I have barely had any sun on my body throughout my whole lifetime. And this past couple of years, like, you know, post my husband dying, you know, having to go out in the dating world and whatnot. I gave myself a little glow up and like I worked out more and I'm wearing at age 56 a bikini for the first time. Looking fabulous. Thank you.

38:08You look unreal. Thank you. But, you know, so anyway, so me and my boyfriend for the past three years have gone to Cabo and we are under an umbrella all day long and not one slice of sun gets onto my skin. I mean, just we know that the UV is coming up off the ocean, off the pool from the side, but over top, like there's no, right. But I know I'm getting that UV, you know, that UV light even in the shade because I can't not wear sunglasses. Like it's still so bright. So I do know I'm getting UV light. But for the past three years, I just didn't put sunscreen on my body. Right. Face and face and neck, totally covered, but on my chest, legs.

38:47And I've gone in December for the past three years. And like, I don't I didn't get any color on my body. Like maybe I got a tiny bit of something. Yeah. But like, I don't, you know, I've gotten so little, you know, sun, I'm like, oh, a little extra vitamin D, whatever. And then this year we went in April and I got like the worst sunburn in the shade. Yeah. And so a lot of people were like, wait a minute, but like, doesn't the umbrella, you know, give you, but it gives the shade. But again, it came in from the side, right? The direct reflection from the pool, but it was in April. That was the difference.

39:19Yeah, the UV, I guess, is just different. And like, literally, somebody said to me the other day, my friend who has a teenage daughter, that like the girlies are looking at their phone like a tanning app, the weather app. And if the UV is over a certain number, they're out there. getting a tan. They want, oh, that's so bad. Tans are bad. That's so bad. And if it's under a certain amount, they really bother going out. Don't waste my time. And so, this is insane to me because this is truly, it's like, how the pendulum swings because as beauty editors, it's just ingrained in us that we would be doing the opposite, right?

39:58If anything. Right. And I was in Florida. Oh, like Joanna said, if it's under two, she'll be outside for like three to five minutes. Yeah. intermittent sun exposure is what she calls it yeah they're doing intermittent sun exposure the other way they're on the opposite end of the scale like it's over nine i'm out there literally when i was in florida a couple weeks ago i was sitting by the pool and all anybody who was a millennial or older was under the umbrella anyone who was under a millennial was out there in the sun yeah of course like this and but i mean like like we did i mean now they know so in theory but You know, it's they don't care.

40:37You feel invincible. You feel invincible. Exactly. And someday they're going to I mean, whoever says when they're 50 years old, you know what? I wish I would have gotten more sun when I was younger. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was tragic. So what did you do? So how I feel about sunburns is it's I kind of have a like I always rely a little bit on Mother Nature. Right. I'm like, she's got my back. So I don't try to like control it and overdo all these things and freak out about it. I'm like, OK, Renee, it's you know, one sunburn, 25 years. Trust me, it's not the end of the world. But so I don't believe in putting anything.

41:05heavy or occlusive on it because, you know, the skin doesn't have a respiratory system, but the concept of breathing, right? Like I want to let that heat out. And if you put too many occlusives in it, then you can hold that heat in. And I don't want to put all that extra pressure on capillaries and things like that. What you need more than anything is antioxidants. So what I did was I fueled up more internally on antioxidants, vitamins and supplements. And then I put on my moisture infusion toner to give water. Because again, talk about thirsty skin cells, right, that have no water. So I would put that on.

41:39And then we have a new product called Bright Now Oil Serum that has 10 % THDA, vitamin C, no sting. And it's an oil serum and it's really, really light. I brought one for you guys, but it's really light. And so it didn't have that like heavy occlusive, but it gave the power of the antioxidants. So I just did those two things and healed up beautifully other than having some peeling. I got to try that vitamin C because I cannot use alloscorbic acid. Who can? It's like my face is just immediately no. Well, in this day and age with the way that people are doing microneedling and using retinols and retinoids and, you know, acid, I mean, everything like lasers, like who should be using that at this point, right?

42:20So yeah, the neutral pH, THDA is now considered the gold standard. Okay. So I've got to retry vitamin C's now that there's options. Yeah. Like we have our vitamin C and E treatment. And for every client that's like, I can't use vitamin C, they use mine and they're like, oh, I can use it. And so for your listeners, what we're talking about is tetrahexyl desolascorbate, which is now considered the gold standard of vitamin C. Its pH is around 5.5. So you never get that stinging. So a lot of, I can't speak for all of them, but a lot of like, like, uh, SkinCeuticals, their, their pH is 3.5. Yeah. Right.

42:59So you're putting a pH of 3.5 with their vitamin C serum on the, on, you know, uh, on, on every day, like save your low pH products for your exfoliating acids that are really helping with cell turnover or not, you know, potentially irritating your skin barrier.

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44:40That's g-o-o-d-r.com slash beauty to claim$10 off your first order. we're going to link to this offer in our show notes and on our website and now back to the show

45:02again we just launched a product with 10 vitamin c and even though i mean that's not just for antioxidant activity right it is as well but in the stronger doses that's what's good for hyperpigmentation. So you're getting best of both worlds, which is wonderful. Right. You know, but I feel like that has that category of hyperpigmentation has just exploded over the last 10 or 15 years. Like people are just people are just so much more aware that they have dark spots. Right. Yeah. Is that a big part of your business? Yeah. So I I'll talk about Lisa Renna and she's talked about this publicly, but I have an expression that I say called put the fire out.

45:39Right. And Lisa is a perfect example of it. And again, she's been public about talking about it. Lisa was someone that had melasma, right, from her pregnancies, from her two girls. And in working with her, she was trying everything. Right. And it's like, you know, the more you're doing, like I wasn't convinced it was helping her, you know, when I first started seeing her, because I was like, OK, what are you doing? And she's like, I'm trying to, you know, she was doing lasers and peels and all these things and and acids. And her barrier was just really compromised. And I said, you know, when we think just kind of logically about melanin cells, like why people get melanin, it's very hyper.

46:18It's hyper, right? These melanin cells are overactive. And so, and I've also learned this with acne as well. Like sometimes you just need to like put the fire out and just like calm. And so I said to Lisa, what if we just focus on like calming the skin, like not doing all these really stimulating things because we're trying to send a signal to the skin to suppress, tell these melanin cells to go to sleep. But you can settle down now. You don't need to protect us. And that was really hard for her to do that because you think you have control over it, especially when everyone's trying to sell her on all these things to do for her skin.

46:52And so we just focused on skin barrier and just really good things to the skin and vitamin C and still some exfoliation, but just really like... Back to basics. Yeah, Back to basics. And she will be the first to tell you that that's when her melasma went away. So we had enough on her skin of melanin suppressing ingredients. So we were still like checking that box. And that's when she learned like put the fire out. And she'll always talk about that. Anyone who has hyperpigmentation, there's more available to do now, right? And so tranosomic acid is something that can be used orally that I think some people have had success with.

47:31Dr. David Kim talked about that on our podcast as well. Yeah. Yeah. A dermatologist. Yeah. Yeah. And so I recently just formulated a product called Hyperfix Fading Toner, where we put it 3 % into a toner. And for your listeners, traneazemic acid is not a exfoliating acid. It has a neutral pH. And but traneazemic acid is the only brightening agent that targets two pigment producing pathways. ways. And so we have it in a toner because when we think about hyperpigmentation, so hyperpigmentation is either brown spots, melasma, you know, sunspots, but also post breakout marks as well, right? Any form of melanin activity, that's what it is.

48:10And so I always, you have to hit it from different angles, right? We love our vitamin C because we know vitamin C is helpful for that, but that's only one product and hitting it in one way. And so you kind of hit it from different angles. That's why I always say there's like, okay, Renee, what's the best product for acne? What's the best product for hyperpigmentation? Well, no, it's not one thing you have to like. Multi-prong. Yeah, multi-prong. Thank you. And so the nice thing about that 3 % transamic acid being in a toner is they can use it morning and night and it's, they don't have to stop using their other things, right?

48:44And some people don't even use toners. So this is a great way for them to plug that in. and but it's also when your skin is bare after cleansing that's when that transomic acid can really get into the skin so we've had incredible results with it and it's really gentle so people who even are using retinoids and sensitive skin there's no irritation so that's been a really great addition to the toolkit we have some great before and afters on that but even for people with acne with breakouts like all the younger girlies that break a breakout they don't like to wear a sunscreen because again historically they're very greasy and gooey and if they are using it it's sparingly well if you want your post-breakout marks to go away you know you need to cover it up so that you're sending a signal to you know let them know to go away yeah so yeah but hyperpigmentation i would say is a really big concern for people now for sure and also because people want to go more makeup free right and they don't want to have things showing i mean that's a lot of times why people wear makeup is to cover it up but of course I'm the person that's saying, no, wear makeup because my job in theory is to tell someone, oh, I want to make your skin so perfect that you never have to wear makeup.

49:51Right. No, I'm like, no, wear makeup. It's an extension of your skincare routine. I will be thinking about those Dallas ladies. Trust me. I know. When I want to go bare face in the summer, I'm going to go, no, I need to pretend I'm like on South Fork or something. We'll think of Mary Kay Ash. Yeah. I just read a whole article about her. I'm sure she was. She was of that generation where she was wearing makeup 24-7. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Iconic. And what about retinol? What is your recommendation for during the summer? Do you want to first hear my retinol story? Yeah. How I know it works? Of course.

50:29So for a lot of estheticians, they know there's the Fitzpatrick skin types. Have you ever heard of that? Okay. So Dr. Fitzpatrick, my former business partner who's an esthetician, used to work for him. Okay. And the first time I met him, my friend said, you know, have, he was the chief of dermatology at Mass General Hospital. I used to live in Boston. My first skincare practice was there. And she said, show Renee your hands. And he held out his hands and he said, do you see the difference? And at the time he was like in his fifties and he showed me his hands and I was like, oh my gosh, like one hand was like so much younger, so much smoother, less brown spots.

51:04So I was like, yeah, I can see a difference. Well, in the 70s, as a dermatologist, Retin-A, which was what it was called back then. Now it has generic names, but it was a topical acne medication. So he'd say to his teenage clients with acne, patients with acne, he'd say, OK, listen, I'm going to give you this prescription, but you have to use it sparingly because it's going to really dry out your skin. So he says, you're going to take a pea-sized amount and you're going to put it on just like this. And he would demonstrate on the back of his left hand. So day in and day out, he was putting it on his hand.

51:37And lo and behold, after six months or whatever, he noticed his skin was looking younger. And he was instrumental in getting Retin-A, FDA approved for photo aging, which became FDA approved, I believe, in 1994. Because I was an esthetician when all that went down. And so I seen what it can do. Right. And especially when it got FDA approved, it had clients using. So I've seen it through the years. I am a believer. I mean, a total believer. Now, I don't think people have to use a prescription, right? But I believe that everyone should be using it. But here's the thing. Unlike an exfoliating acid where you can sleep with an acid serum on or use a peel or whatever and you get like immediate results, right?

52:18That's not how retinol and retinoids work. They're, you know, they're long term. It's you're helping the greater good of the skin. And so the mistake that a lot of people make is they'll stop using it in the summer. Sun sensitivity. Sun sensitivity. That's what we've been told for so long is that it creates sun sensitivity. Right. And especially the prescription form, because if your skin is dry and peeling, that's sun sensitivity. And so people will kind of go off it in the summer because they're outdoors more. Now, if someone is consciously, I want to get a tan in the summer, then absolutely, I don't recommend it.

52:51But most people that are using retinols and retinoids, they're taking care of their skin. They're not getting sun tans, right? And so, but if you're, if you practice sun safety, you still want to use it. You want that slow drip to the skin all year long. So typically what I'll suggest is to go to a gentler formula, something less strong. So Cassatt has a great formula. I have a great formula in my line, but essentially prescription people may want to consider, talk to your doctor, but you may want to consider ladder down. I always talk about it like a ladder, ladder up, ladder down. And you can do that through either like skincare buffering or by the percentage and the type of retinoid, right?

53:33Exactly. We need to ask you about chicken skin, aka KP. How do you say it? Keratosis polaris. Keratosis polaris, everybody. So this is the dreaded sort of chicken skin, back of the arms, sometimes if it's like people get it on the legs sometimes as well. So how do you treat this? You want to do both physical and chemical exfoliators. So you want to dissolve and really, you know, break down that that keratin in the skin. And so an easy way to do it is through a body peel pad. Right. Like that's it. You can put that on. You Beauty makes a body compound that's really nice as well. Yeah. So you want that dissolving and digesting.

54:10But just because you dissolved and digested with the lower pH of the acid doesn't mean they actually came off. So you need to do the physical scrub. So you can use body scrubs. But I I like we have our back and body buffing towel on our line but i like any kind of physical thing is actually freaking amazing renee and it's rough which i formulate i mean i made it to be rough yeah because like shower it looks like a long it's four feet long yeah you can go down your back yes you can do it all down your back but i wanted it to be rough because if you think of like little those poofs and yeah like they don't do anything like you need to get in there and so yes when you it's nylon and it's you know you hang it it dries easily so you don't have to worry it's a more sanitary option than in a traditional loofahs or whatever.

54:54Can you throw it in the wash? Yeah, you can. Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. But you need to have that kind of scrubbing action, right? It's not so harsh, but like, I mean, you buff with that and then you're using your acids. That KP is real nice, but you have to be consistent when you use it. Yeah. It's really good because it's just like a bigger surface area. So you can really get your back, which is like hard to scrub. And then you can roll it up. Yeah. And then use it more like in your hand for like targeted spots. I recommended that to people I know that really do a lot of self-tanning. Yes, exactly.

55:23As well, because it's like even when you get it off with an oil cleanser, it's still kicking around. Yes. Especially in like hard to reach. Hard to reach. Yeah. So that product is actually unreal. I love that. Double exfoliate is what we're hearing. Yeah. And then moisturize, right? Yeah. Because you've exposed these baby cells. So you want to. Yeah. You know. And I'm not I don't really discriminate about body lotions. Like I'm not one of those like, oh, I got to use a$200. Right. Because it's kind of affirming. I mean, come on. Give me a break, right? I'm not buying that. So I just use like CeraVe.

55:55They have a body lotion called like intensive moisturizing or something. The one in the tub? No, it's in a pump. Or at least the one I have. It's a newer one at the Science of Skin Summit. They were giving out samples. But I like it. It's in a pump, right? Who doesn't love a body lotion or a pump? I don't want to open up a jar or anything. And I will shout out the First Aid Beauty AHA and BHA Body Scrub. Yeah. Because it does both. Exactly. And it honestly, in one use. Yes. When it is freaking crazy how smooth you will get. Yes. Because you'll just be like, oh, it's the winter. I haven't really done this in a minute.

56:24And then it's all like so smooth. No, you're right. You can use a two in one problem there. So if you're trying to get your whole body, then you're like the product's empty. Right. So that's why I like the buffing towels. True. Yeah. More economical. But yes. But those two in ones. Absolutely. Dermadocter makes one. Yes. Yeah. Well, you're so great at education. We loved having you again today. Tell everyone what's new for you and where they can find you. So for almost 30 years in business now, we've always sold our products exclusively from our skincare spas in Dallas, which we closed down before COVID, rest in peace, and through our website and we ship all over the world.

56:59But I made a decision two years ago because I missed being around estheticians since I didn't have my spas anymore. And our products are now sold through licensed skincare professionals. And I've always, when I think about who best to sell my line, you know, it's estheticians. Those are my people. Those are the people that I believe are most uniquely qualified to sell my line. And so we have about 95 partners right now. It's just in the U.S. But like Candace, the L.A. facialist, I'm actually going to go pop in afterwards because she sells Renee Rouleau. And but it's just it's really fun to see estheticians embracing the line and and what they always say to me which is cool is because they sell other professional lines as well but they go they always say renee the one thing i notice about your line is it is so clear it was formulated by an esthetician from that vantage point no one else would know this problem other than an esthetician yeah you know i'm when i'm training them i'm always like you know when you have that client that's like this that the other thing.

58:02And they're like, yes, I never have a solution for them. I'm like, ah, this product is for that person. It's like, if you know, you know. And you're like working with them again, collaborating and educating them. That's awesome. That's so great. So yeah, but Instagram, Renee Rouleau or Renee Rouleau Skin Care. But yeah. Okay. That's great. Well, thank you for joining us. You're so incredible at what you do. Thank you so much. I adore you both. We'll come over to your house for margaritas anytime. We will be on the next flight. So thank you so much. Every time you come. I mean, every time there's men South by Southwest.

58:32I'm like, you're going to be coming. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening. You can find details on every product mentioned in today's episode, along with our exclusive promo codes on our blog at BreakingBeautyPodcast.com. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter. Every episode will be delivered directly to your inbox so you won't miss a single thing. And get social with us. Let us know what you think of the episode. You can follow us on Instagram at Breaking Beauty Podcast. And did you know we also have a private Facebook group? Just search Breaking Beauty Podcast chat room.

59:06You can even leave us a voicemail at any time with questions or feedback at 1-844-227-0302. And don't forget to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast fix. Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, and Apple Podcasts, where you can show us some love by writing a review. See you next Wednesday.

59:42Renée Rouleau:Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.