Advice for Aspiring Fractional CMOs and the Role of AI in Marketing w/ Jessica Shirra | builders podcast

0:00If you had told me like three years ago that starting my own business was going to completely change who I am as a person. I just, I never would have believed that like in the amount of personal growth I've done has been amazing.

0:19Have you ever thought about becoming a fractional executive or maybe hiring one like a fractional CMO? In today's episode, I interviewed Jessica Shura. She made the jump three years ago from a marketing professional to becoming a fractional CMO. Now she's expanded her team, her practice. She has an agency. She has a course for aspiring fractional CMOs. And so we talk all about building her business, modern marketing, and being a fractional CMO.

0:50Today's podcast is sponsored by Intuit. I use Intuit in my personal life with TurboTax and Credit Karma. And as you probably know, Intuit has a lot of great products and solutions for businesses. So let me set this up. There is a lot of administrative work that comes along with building a business or operating a business, which means all of us have to wear a lot of different hats. But you didn't start your company just to spend your time focused on tasks like filling out paperwork or crunching numbers. Fortunately, QuickBooks Online offers tools that make administrative tasks a breeze for businesses of all sizes, so you can get back to growing your business.

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2:00Hi, Jess. How are you today? Thanks for joining the podcast. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm really excited to talk about marketing, e-commerce, being a fractional CMO. And let me actually start there. So you were a marketing, are a marketing professional, but had a background career in marketing and decided to make the switch to being a full-time fractional CMO. What was the catalyst there? So I've been in marketing for 15 years and been working as a fractional CMO for three. So the catalyst actually was having my second daughter. I mean, I've always really had that entrepreneurial itch. I think like from my very first job, the very first day, I just remember thinking like, okay, this is cool, but I kind of want to build my own company eventually.

2:44And I think just after having both of my daughters, I had the opportunity to work within a company that was like very family friendly and very flexible after having my first. So it was a really nice stepping stone, remote and flexible hours and things like that. But I just felt like I wanted even more flexibility. And I also just wanted sort of control over who I was working with, the kind of work I was doing. And I think at the time too, I had been feeling just this desire to expand and really step into like what I felt like were my strengths. So I found myself typically in, you know, I had worked in like some, some big corporate roles, Lululemon and things like that.

3:28But, but a lot of my experience was in sort of like a small to mid-sized business where, you know, there might be a marketing team of like five to 10 people. And often when you have teams of that size, you end up sitting in like a strategy seat and doing some execution. And while I didn't mind the execution. It just felt like this wasn't really like what lit me up. And I felt sort of like I was capable of more and like meant for more. I started to just really reflect on like, when do I feel like I'm in flow and what work really lights me up? And what do I feel that I'm like actually really excellent at?

4:04And it's strategy and really being able to like zoom out and look at things from like a 30 ,000 foot view and really understand the business and how marketing fits into the business goals. And then also be able to understand from a really granular execution level, how all of that stuff matters and really ladders up to the marketing strategy and then the business goals. So it all clicked for me when I stumbled across the term fractional CMO and started learning about what this role looks like and how the role functions within an organization. It just felt like an aha moment for me. It is a relatively new term, at least for me.

4:46I think that I feel like in the last couple of years is when I heard about it or for the first time or started seeing it over and over again. So it kind of is what it sounds like. Someone's hiring a fraction of a CMO or part-time CMO, something like that. Maybe talk about the benefits you see of hiring a fractional CMO. I know we were reflecting before the call that when I work with small businesses or like an entrepreneur or a founder, marketing is not always something that they have any experience in. And so who do you hire? What do you do first? What strategies and tactics should you have? Like maybe they're a technical leader or a product leader or something like that, just have no idea.

5:34But they can't just go ahead and they just can't hire you full time. that nobody has the budget for that. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I feel like one of the biggest benefits to bringing on a fractional CMO is really sort of like right-sizing the support that you need and actually being able to better leverage your budget. So to your point, instead of bringing me on at a C-suite full-time salary, when you don't really have that much actual CMO work, you can just hire a CMO for like that right sized amount. So, you know, a small to medium sized business generally needs like a really strong marketing strategy and plan.

6:14And then they just need someone, you know, really experienced to oversee the execution of that, to make sure that, you know, what was on paper when it comes to life is actually as it's meant to be. And it's moving the right needles forward and things like that. So the reason I really love that is because what I see often are small to medium-sized businesses trying to sort of have like one person fill that seat or many seats. So they will have one person and they might be hiring somebody like more senior and strategic. And that person is like doing strategy, but also posting to social media and responding to DMs.

6:50And, you know, when you really think about like how they're spending their budget, they're paying somebody at, you know, a C-suite salary level. And that person might have 10, 12, 15 years of experience. And then they're like responding to DMs, which is like a very entry-level marketing task. And it's just really not the best use of their time. So they're just, they're kind of overspending for this person to be like stretching into execution, like a good percentage of their time. Or I sometimes see the inverse too, of like bringing in somebody junior and they're just like out of their depth when it comes to strategy.

7:23And they don't really understand the business, the goals behind the business, what moves the business forward, how the CEO is thinking about things. And they don't really understand that bigger picture of marketing and how everything should be driving the business forward. So they end up just out of their depth. And then they don't really have a strong strategy. And the execution ends up being kind of watered down. I like that junior example that you brought up because I was actually going to say something along those lines. Early in my career, I worked at a startup and I was that junior marketing hire, if you will.

8:03And it was super fun because I was sort of doing everything, but I didn't have a coach or a mentor. I mean, the founders were technical. They had engineering backgrounds and product backgrounds. And so I didn't have anybody to coach me. As part of what you do as a fractional CMO, help those junior people with their career and just, and that sort of thing? Or is that sort of outside the scope? No, absolutely. Team development is definitely a big part of it. So depending how we're working with clients, we have advisory packages and we have actual fractional CMO packages as well. But as part of both of those, we are definitely working really closely with the existing teams and trying to, one of the things we really look at is like right people, right seats.

8:45So we want to make sure that the company is resourced with the right people. And so what I mean by that is they've got the right staff for the things that they should be doing. And we also want to make sure that the people are, you know, sitting in an area that they're really feeling passionate about. So we spend a lot of time actually getting to know the marketing teams and understanding like, hey, what do you love about your role? What are you not like? Is there an area that you're really passionate about learning, like potentially paid ads or building out a marketing strategy if it's somebody more junior?

9:20And we do what we can to give that person stretch projects and access to us as CMOs to really start to learn and kind of stretch their strategic thinking. I like that a lot of your focus, whether it's yourself and your own business or the folks that you work with, is trying to put folks in positions where they're doing the work they love? Because I feel like, I don't know if you have any data to support this, that when you're doing the work that you love, it's a better work quality. You're working harder. Oh, totally. It's so much better for the business, 10x better when everybody's doing stuff that they like and they're good at.

9:55Yeah, exactly. Because often what I see, if you have someone trying to do a whole bunch of things, they're really good in one or two areas. And so maybe when they write copy or They're creating social content. They're like quick. It's really great quality. It's actually converting and driving engagement. It's, it's, you know, performing really well. But then you have them over here trying to figure out like how to set up an email automation or how to, how to do maybe the tech side. That's like really not their zone of genius. So they're spending, you know, 12 hours trying to set up something that would take somebody who knows it maybe 20 minutes.

10:29And so often there can be that inefficiency. And then even when that person kind of cobbles it together and figures it out, it's not really as strong as it can be. I think I was going to ask you, Summer, what's your favorite part of the business? But I'm getting that. I think you've addressed that. And you knew, I guess, from day one that you thought you wanted to have your own business. What are some of the challenges you feel like you've experienced or had to work through as you're starting your own company, expanding, etc.? That's a great question. There's been so many challenges. Where do I start?

11:02I would say probably like two of the biggest ones that come to mind would be like my own mindset and development work would be number one. And then as my team has grown. So when I started, it was just me. Now I have an agency called Navi and there's multiple fractional CMOs on my team. So I'll kind of chat about that first and then circle back to the mindset piece because the people piece is a little more straightforward. So I find that there definitely has been some learnings along the way growing my own team. And I think that when you do something or when you provide a service that is like strategic thinking and thought leadership in a lot of ways, it's really tough to figure out like, how do you find someone that can come and do the same thing or very similar?

11:50So I really had to kind of learn some lessons around like, what am I looking for in a fractional CMO? So for me, it's been really looking for someone who has like the level of strategic thinking that can kind of like step back and really understand the business. I don't think a lot of marketers come in and take time to understand the CEO's vision and what their goals are, what's working, really deep dive into the offers, like I, we come in and try to see and understand like all areas of the business, not just marketing. Cause we want to, we want to know the business as well as the CEO or try to anyways, so that then we can come in from a marketing lens and be like, okay, we get the whole picture.

12:35And with that knowledge, here's what we think marketing could do to help achieve those goals. So I think like looking for and screening for that way of thinking is quite difficult. So I've started to put some test projects in place and sort of like a stepped phased approach to bringing somebody into working in the business. And that's been really successful over the past year. And then I would say the mindset piece, if you had told me like three years ago that starting my own business was going to like completely change who I am as a person and make me like have to confront all of the like limiting beliefs I have and really kind of like look at myself and like evolve and grow as a person.

13:18I just, I never would have believed that like in the amount of, of personal growth I've done has been amazing. I struggle to find words for it because I just feel like I'm not who I was three years ago in the best of ways. Like I, I have grown as a human. I'm, I'm more confident. I'm a better mom. I'm a better wife, friend. Like I've, it's just really expanded me as a person. And, you know, I think really to be successful in business, it takes a lot of tenacity and, you know, a lot of your like fears and things kind of come up. So you really have to be able to like work through that and like push through that to sustain and be able to kind of go to the next level.

13:56In the last interview that I did with a guy named Dane Chapin, he's the CEO of a games company. He mentioned that one of his big kind of growth things was he basically had to surround himself with people who could give him criticism. It was almost like he needed to become a way better listener. That's what I took from it. And you're talking about having more confidence, realizing you have to have more tenacity. Can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah. Is that more about how to close clients, how to properly bill for your services? I think it'll be different for everybody. But I think for me, there was when I started lots of sort of, I guess, challenges to come up around like money mindset.

14:44So like charging my worth, you know, sort of imposter syndrome a little bit at times, just a lot of different, like, wow, can I do this? Or wow, this is actually really hard. And like, how do I, how do I push through? Like there's, you know, there's just times I think in building your business where things are going really well. And then there's times where they're not. And so I've found in those times when things have not been going well, where, you know, Maybe I'm struggling to find leads or maybe I've lost a dream client or maybe I've screwed up and made a mistake. A lot of those limiting beliefs can kind of surface.

15:22I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. All of the things. I don't know that I was as attuned to those thoughts until getting into this work because really starting to surround myself with other entrepreneurs that were working with coaches, I kind of opened my eyes to this world of, I can get a business coach, but I also can have someone that helps me with my mindset. And that will take me further than any business coaching. Well, I'd like to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the businesses and clients that you work with, Jess. I know that a lot of your clients are in e-commerce and or apparel.

15:59And it feels like e-commerce is a really competitive marketplace right now. I know that in my social feeds on IG, I'm seeing dozens of different leisure wear companies, health supplements, everything. And so as you think about the challenges that e-commerce companies are going through, how would you categorize them or what are the biggest? Is it branding? Is it return on ad spend? Is it measurement? Or is it something else? Yeah, that's a great question. And it's probably all of those and other things. I mean, I think that... So yes, a lot of our clients are e-commerce. And I think when we see a client who is kind of struggling to stand apart from the competition or grow.

16:45Often, I think like what is happening is there's usually some lack when it comes to like their USP or what sets them apart. And so, you know, I think that the big challenge right now is consumers have so many options and they really value convenience. And, you know, depending on your target audience, Like there's different factors that go into how they're making their decisions. You know, particularly like the younger generations are very focused on like sort of the sustainability factors or the do good factors of a company. So there's different ways I think companies can set themselves apart.

17:27But I think what the biggest gap that I see is just like, you know, a lack of kind of really looking at the market from like an objective perspective and thinking like thinking from the perspective of the consumer. Like if I was looking and shopping for XYZ product, like how am I going to make decisions? Where am I going to look and what sort of factors will determine like where I'll actually spend my money? I find a lot of clients will say like, oh, no one's doing what we're doing because they might have like a unique feature or something like that. But in reality, like we know consumers will have like more of a broad category in their mind and they might look at like a certain feature as one small aspect, but there is so many options.

18:15And so I think what brands can really do to stand out is think through the customer experience and how they're really differentiating themselves. So that to me spans from like product to branding to customer experience all the way through to like delivery and just every touch point they're having with it with the consumer. And thinking about like, OK, how how like how do our products stand out? What does our pricing look like relative to the competitor space? shipping, returns, like all of that really, really influences. And then I think, you know, if you were to just say a company is like taking all those boxes and doing really, really great, I think the other, like the next layer is then like, who are you as a brand?

19:01Because if I'm going to look at like this white sweater versus, you know, another brand, like, okay, why would I shop at this brand versus another? And I think like Lululemon is always a really great example and probably one of the world's leading in this aspect, but they have done a great job creating a culture around their products, Apple too. So like people don't buy an Apple phone because they've done all of the research and it's like the best phone on the market. They buy it because they identify with something to do with the brand. Like they see themselves as like an Apple user who Apple has, has created this kind of painted this picture of like, you know, if you're Apple, you're, you know, you like like aesthetic and clean lines and simple and like you're, you're kind of ahead of the game when it comes to tech.

19:51And, you know, you, you identify more with the attributes that the brand has like kind of painted around their products than the product itself. And Lululemon has done a great job with that as well, being, um, you know, such a leader in like the community space and the active space and just sort of painting a picture of like, who is the person and who are the people that wear Lululemon? And, you know, are you in that camp or are you not? I think you've hit on something so important because marketing often is pigeonholed into, into customer acquisition. You know, how, how much, how much am I paying to get someone to be a first time customer and how big is their basket and, so on and so forth.

20:29But with Lululemon and a bunch of other brands, it's word of mouth, it's referral, it's all of those things. And so for like a challenger brand or a smaller brand, how much are you thinking about, you know, once I buy something, how do you get me to tell my friends about it? I think the absolute simplest way is you just make a really, really great product. So like, I mean, one of the things Lululemon does, and I mean, I would say Lululemon, but they're so big, but there, there are smaller brands that do this too. Um, I think like AG greens is a, is an up and coming, like one that, that I really feel does this.

21:11Like they, they're, they invest a lot in their product, in the, the product research, really doing a lot of testing with their market. So if you're creating something that, you know, I look at marketing a lot from like a pain point perspective and sort of a transformation perspective. So like when we're thinking about customers, what problem are we solving for them? And so if we can think about our products and we think about solving that problem, how are we doing it in such a way that like we don't even need to create a referral program. We don't have to like incentivize anything. Like we're solving that problem so well that they can't help but tell other people because it's like, okay, I just got this.

21:52I don't know, these pair of pants and they are amazing. I've worn them a bunch of times to work out and they're not pilling and they're not shrinking. I can wash them really well. Like they're such great quality and they fit me. And when I do XYZ thing and I stretch, like they don't fall down like the other ones. Like, and the reason, so if we think about some of the athletic brands that, that have like really technical products, the reason they work well and they just feel better and people will spend money on them is because they've like actually tested them in real life and like tested the use case of them.

22:23So, um, if you think about like, you know, any kind of product you've purchased where it's got this like unique or smart thing around use. So I'll just give you like a random example that's coming into my mind. So I just recently got for my birthday, um, like these pampered chef bowls that are like insulated and keep dinner warm when it's like on the table. And they have this, like, when you take off the lid, there's like this little edge that you can like rest the pot or the, sorry, the lid on the side of the bowl. So it's not like taking up space on the table. It just kind of like nicely sits there.

22:57So like what that, what I think about when I think about that kind of a feature is that that brand like deeply understands their customer and they've like sat at the dinner table and been like, how does this feel to hold this? How does it feel to pass it? Like what kinds of things am I going to do with it? And what would make the using of this product feel better or function for me? Or when I move this way or when I do that, what kinds of things feel good or don't feel good? And how do we solve that problem? So I think it's tons of customer research and really just making sure your product is not just delivering the base answer, but you're taking it that next level.

23:38Do you feel like brands struggle with what to tell customers about the various attributes of their product because, um, you know, maybe that, maybe, uh, it's got a good price point compared to another product that might do the same thing or, um, or maybe it's sustainably made, um, or maybe it's just really easy to use, uh, or it's got great colors. And so, um, and so how, how do you, as a, let's say that, uh, the CEO saying all these things And now you're trying to advise the CEO how to think about marketing investments and what the final five video tests should be. I think it kind of comes down to like you can't be all things to all people.

24:24And so when you are creating a product or when you're thinking about your marketing, getting really clear on who your audience is. And I think many brands can niche down even more than they already are. Um, so to your point, are you going to be the affordable option? Are you going to be the option that maybe isn't the cheapest? Maybe in fact, it's the most expensive, but it is like the most functional. It has all the features. They've thought of everything. Um, you know, who do you want to be and what customer segment do you want to go after? Cause you really can't, you can't hit all of them at the same time.

25:02Cause you'll just not really land with anybody. I wanted to ask about some of the more technical aspects of marketing. We're all using generative AI to answer all kinds of questions for us. When you think about e-commerce brands or maybe any of the clients that you have, how are you using AI in marketing efforts to improve efficiency? What's working? What's not working? What do you think about that right now? I mean, I personally use AI all day, every day with clients and we get the teams set up as well. So, um, gosh, I can think of a lot of different examples. I think, uh, many chat, I don't know that that's quite AI, but it's automation.

25:44That's been amazing. And I see lots of brands doing really, really well with that. Um, automating their DMS on Instagram. Um, it's a great way to build like drive leads. Um, I'm seeing also a lot of, um, a lot of AI for kind of content planning or content creation. I think there's lots of learnings there. There's lots of ways that it can be done poorly, but there's also lots of ways that it can be done really well. AI is great if you're training it and kind of feeding it all of the right information that it needs. So if it understands your brand voice, your audience, your offerings, your USP, like all of the things it needs to know from like a contextual standpoint, then the output will be stronger.