Harnessing Your Cringe w/ Henna Pryor | builders podcast

0:00A little bit of awkward discomfort actually makes you more likable. It makes you be perceived as more trustworthy, more generous, more forgivable, because other people view you as someone who they can be at ease around.

0:16Today on Builders is author and workplace performance expert Hannah Pryor on her new book, Good Awkward, which is about harnessing your cringe in the workplace and advice for leaders. And before that, we hit on three spooky stories for Halloween with B Newsletter Editor-in-Chief Marty Beckerman. All right, I'm discussing three stories with Editor-in-Chief of the B Newsletter Marty Beckerman and their spooky story since this episode's dropping on Halloween. How are you doing, Marty? What are you going to dress up for as Halloween tonight? I'm going to be the Riddler this year. Solid choice. I wasn't going to get the baby Batgirl outfit, but we decided to just go with the pumpkin.

0:59Basic standard baby costume, stick with tradition. Solid. Now, is the pumpkin kind of the thin felt, or is it kind of like a plush and round and spherical? It's the felt one, yeah. The felt one. Okay, good. Solid. I'm sure she'll be super cute. Where does Riddler rank for you in the all-time Batman villains? Pretty high up? yeah i guess i don't know i mean my best costume ever was captain planet which i put like so much effort into like i painted myself blue and i had i found like a green mullet wig um but i've never put that much effort into another costume so this is just a little spandex you know onesie oh we'll need to post pictures on the on the podcast page um well anyway we're we're doing spooky stories this week or halloween related stories and and the first one i want to talk about that you're covering is we all know e-commerce is big.

1:55Local stores are having trouble. They're shutting down. But there's one store. It's only open a couple months a year, and it's Halloween-focused. Tell us about Spirit Halloween and how they're sort of breaking the mold on brick and mortar. Yeah, our main article this week is on Spirit, which started in the early 80s and is now everywhere. Every city has multiple locations. They've got 1 ,400 stores throughout the U.S. They make a billion dollars a year in revenue. And we're looking at when people buy almost everything else online, why is it that they really enjoy standing in line and going to Spirit?

2:31It's kind of part of the Halloween experience for a lot of people now. Yeah, that's cool. That's great. My kids have done it. The next thing you're covering, I guess I'll kind of set it up. Where does The Shining rank for you as the scariest movie ever? like maybe it's not number one but sort of like we're on the scarometer is it what what's your go-to is like really super scary movie i'm not like a super horror fan i'll be honest i like the shining i like the book the shining i'm a huge stephen king fan but uh it's clearly a cinematic classic even though uh kubrick and king disagreed on on a lot a lot of the movie um but we do talk in this week's newsletter about the business lesson we can draw from The Shining, which is that maybe working from home all the time isn't the best for mental health.

3:29Maybe being around other people and not being isolated and cooped up in our houses all winter. Maybe it's good to be around others, even if we're not swinging an axe into doors. There have been psychological studies now that while workers enjoy remote work and the flexibility, being around coworkers, at least some of the time, really does seem to improve mental health and a sense of belonging and purpose. Yeah, well, I believe that that rings true for me. And just for the listeners, I think for my money, the best scary movie is the original Halloween still holds up really scary, really good, and a great ending.

4:09Okay, last story I want to talk about is about a startup that you covered, I guess to set this up, like, near-death experiences, I've been told can have a positive effect by like putting your life in perspective. You know, you're about to die and now it really becomes crystal clear for you what's important in life. What is this startup doing? So this is a Russian startup called Precated Academy. We found the story a while ago and held it for the Halloween issue because it seemed so perfect. They will bury you alive for hours at a time for 3.5 million rubles, which is$57 ,000. So for the true thrill seeker who wants to be covered in dirt.

4:58They say this will give you a whole new desire to live. It's a therapeutic experience. I have my doubts about this story because they're also saying that this experience might unlock psychic abilities. So however much you trust weird news out of Russia, but travelers can enjoy that one. Well, so they charge$57 ,000. Marty, I'll do that for you for a mere 10 ,000. I'll just bury you in my backyard. Anyway, good, good. I love these stories. And as always, folks can get them by looking up the Bee newsletter, which is on business.com. Thanks, Marty. Thanks, Jeff.

5:43All right, I'm trying to think of the most awkward way to start this conversation, maybe not even introducing my guest. instead of just saying, Henna, how awkward are you on a scale of one to 10? Oh, what's higher than 10? And I think I already, before we started recording, John and I just met and he said, I'd like to take a drink. And I said, would you like to take a shot? I think we already blasted through the awkward intro. Yeah, 9.5 at least. Yeah. I'm excited to talk to you today, talk about your book, Good Awkward. when I heard the title originally, I'm like, I'm like, finally, something that taught something that talks about my life.

6:26And, and, you know, this being a kind of a business podcast, I want to talk about how that's applicable to work. But I was I was thinking in in prep for this interview that I was at a high school reunion this past weekend, I had I had a blast. I had such a good time. I'm not going to reveal how many years it was since I went to college. But let's just say It was a milestone reunion. And one of the things that was so fun about it is I didn't have like any of the public self-consciousness that I had in high school. And probably neither did the other people who were there. We were kind of joking about it.

7:03You know, in high school, I see my son going through this. People are in different friend groups or, you know, you just don't feel comfortable in certain situations. And here I was with people I hadn't seen in 10 years or more in many cases. and it was just all kind of chill. It seems pretty relatable to your work. Yeah, 100%. I love that out of the gate, you identified awkwardness as a form of public self-consciousness because that's what it is. It's a self-conscious emotion. And what that essentially implies is we are looking for who we are through the lens of who other people see. So our private self-consciousness is sort of our inner narrative, our beliefs, our values, our public self-consciousness is sort of who are other people seeing right now, right?

7:48If so, I'm wearing a mind reading helmet, it essentially would say something like, do they like what they see? Do they approve of what they see? And so there are various kind of points in our lives where those emotions are stronger and less strong. So I love, you talked about your kids. I know you mentioned to me you have a high schooler and a middle schooler. I've got two middle schoolers. That is a stage in life where those things are particularly increased. We're looking at other people, our social status as who are we? And I'm going to define that based on who other people see. Then there's a period of time in our professional lives, really every inflection point, you know, new first time in college, new job, new promotion, turn into a leader for the first time, new company.

8:28But then there's another inflection point that hits later in life where we start to shake some of that off. So I think you've started to reach the, I don't care quite as much as I used to stage of things. But it's interesting because the stage that you're at now is similar to the stage of kids. So most children don't experience awkwardness in the way that adults do because self-consciousness doesn't kick up until early adolescence, about age eight or nine for most kids. Well, I was going to say, and there we go, I talked over you another awkward thing I just did. But, you know, your book really isn't about love or romance.

9:07No. It's about kind of waiting to harness awkwardness, but how awkwardness in a way can make you more relatable, more attractive, I guess, in some ways. It made me think of that. I had a single friend in my 20s, and she was looking for love. And she said, I just want to find someone who's clumsy. Like that was her thing. And it always just kind of stuck with me. And it's almost like we can be awkward together. That's sort of what I took from that. I love that. So the book is written through the lens of the workplace. It is not necessarily, it's very applicable personally, but it's written through the lens of how does this emotion hold us back at work and how do we embrace it at work?

9:55But I love what's behind that statement that your friend make, because essentially what she's trying to say there is, I would like to find myself close to someone who does not feel the need to perform or cater to others' expectations all the time, right? And so that is sort of the opposite of embracing our awkwardness is performing or catering at work. Catering to meet other people's expectations essentially means behaving in such a way or showing up in such a way that we think it will be palatable to what we think the other person expects from us. The opposite of that is kind of leaning into our natural human stumbles, fumbles, missteps, mispronunciations, and understanding that it in fact, in most cases, does not make you less likable.

10:42In fact, makes you more likable. Now, I do say in most cases, because a lot of people confuse awkwardness with ineptitude, especially at work. They fear if I show some awkwardness at work, people are going to think I don't know what I'm doing, or I'm not confident in my work. But the research actually tells a different story. If you are someone who is generally perceived as smart, as capable, as competent, knows what they're doing, a little bit of awkward discomfort actually makes you more likable. It makes you be perceived as more trustworthy, more generous, more forgivable, because other people view you as someone who they can be at ease around.

11:18The lack of perfection puts them at ease. And so there's a host of benefits in the workplace. Hannah, what prompted you to write the book in the first place? Oh, it always makes me laugh because people now are like, kind of you seem really confident. And I'm like, did you know me most of my life? Like, I have been relentlessly awkward my entire life. You know, I'm first born of immigrant parents. My dad's from India. My mom's from Pakistan. I never felt like I fit in. My bumpy edges were always on display. And, you know, I describe it as the me that I desperately wanted to be was always clashing with the me that I felt like was on display.

11:57I wanted to be just like all the Jennifers and Samanthas and Jessicas that I grew up around. My name is Henna. I didn't pack peanut butter and jelly on a white bread sandwich. I had quima parata in my lunch. And everything I wanted was just to feel socially similar to other people. And so for a long time, I worked my butt off to try to be the version that I thought other people would socially accept and approve of. And it was exhausting. And it never quite worked. And so for a long time, I would fight this awkwardness that I felt. And it wasn't until I got to college, like I think many do, that you kind of start to find your other folks that have their little idiosyncrasies or their quirks or their edges that they let show.

12:41So that was my life experience. Now, quickly, I'll point to professionally, the interest began because our queen, Brene Brown, who has done a world of benefit for the business world, in her work around vulnerability, she would often close her podcast episodes or interviews with this idea of stay awkward, brave, and kind. That became her tagline, stay awkward, brave, and kind. And I would always think to myself, I know how to stay brave and I know how to stay kind. Awkward? Lady, I've been trying to stop being that my whole life. What are you talking about? And so it led to a deep dive. And what I found in the research just continued to fascinate me about this emotion.

13:18I want to dig into some of that research in a little bit, but you hit on the term brave. And when you describe your own work, I think whether it's your website or your LinkedIn profile, you say to try to simplify it, your work's about having a braver performance mindset. And I wanted to ask you why you chose that word brave when you could have chose successful results oriented or some other positive adjective. So why did you decide brave in the one adjective you used? Yeah, oftentimes when I think about what holds people back from their peak performance or their highest potential, it usually in some way, in some percentage point, has to do with their fear of what someone else is going to think.

14:06So even if they have the skills, even if they have the smarts, even if they have the aptitude, I have seen so many high performers freeze in inaction at the edge of their potential because what will my parents think? What will my team think if I leave and take this new job? What will my former boss think? What will my peers say about this? I have a great situation here, even though I think I should be better over there. There's so much courage left on the table because of what other people think. And so to me, if the bravery is unlocked, the courage is unlocked, all the other results, the success, the numbers, all of it follow.

14:45But the coined term that I came up with for the book is the cringe chasm. If we don't jump, if we don't make that first brave jump past our discomfort and that awkward middle, really none of the other outcomes are possible. We're stuck on the one side of the chasm. And so to me, let's start there. Start with that. The rest will come. Yeah. I wonder if something's related. Something I hear often in the workplace is almost like I'm about to ask a dumb question or almost like someone saying, you know, I'm afraid to be wrong. I'm afraid to ask something that somebody might find to be a dumb question.

15:27It kind of relates to that at the very smallest level. Um, when you reviewed all of the science about this, what's, what's, uh, what's one study or one, one finding that really kind of blew you away? Yeah. One of my favorites, and this was, you know, unfamiliar to me until I dug into it. There's a phenomenon called vicarious embarrassment that I thought just blew my socks off when it came to this emotion. So there is a certain type of feeling of awkwardness or embarrassment that is very closely correlated to a certain type of empathy. So this certain type of empathy is called easily empathetically embarrassed.

16:07So when you as an individual are a little too high on this type of empathy, you know, empathy is largely considered a good thing. We want more empathy in the business context. We all know it's a good thing. But when you're a little too high on this easily empathetically embarrassed scale, you experience something called vicarious embarrassment, which means essentially rather than just being embarrassed for someone, for example, John, you went up and spoke in front of the group, you mispronounced someone's name horribly, right? Rather than just being embarrassed for you, when I'm high on that type of empathy, all of a sudden I feel embarrassed with you.

16:44I take that on as though it's my own, right? I want to climb under the desk. I want to go, oh my God, just end this meeting now. This is so uncomfortable. This is so awkward. And so when those of us experience that high level of vicarious embarrassment, it has an interesting correlation to our own ability to withstand awkward and embarrassing moments. Because essentially what we're thinking is, gosh, if I feel that strongly about that person's embarrassing moment, then other people must have an equally strong lens on me when I have an experience like that. And the truth is, statistically, they don't.

17:22People aren't paying nearly as close attention to you as you think they are. But when we can examine that function of our own empathy as it relates to our awkwardness, it's a really interesting and kind of fresh starting point to examine how those feelings may hold us back from doing the things that we want to do. Yeah, I can see that. I mean, you sometimes see that when you're watching a TV show and you're feeling so, you're just watching it and you're feeling awkward. You want the scene to end, and it can also happen in the workplace, too, when you see someone kind of mess up, make a faux pas, whatever.

17:57Did you know there's a name for that kind of television? There's actually a name for that sort of television show. It's called Cringe Comedy. Oh, really? Oh, okay. All right. America's Funniest Home Videos, Office, Borat, Curb Your Enthusiasm. Those are all examples of cringe comedy. Yeah, and a lot of really popular shows in there, too. You know, in the quotes of people reviewing your book, you had someone in there. I don't know if you know him personally, Russell Wilson. I do. He's – I live in Seattle. He was a quarterback here for a decade. He's having a challenging year this year. Yes, yes.

18:37In terms of on the playing field, but in Seattle, maybe the best Seattle Seahawks career there's been. there's been. And, and he, he's somebody who the media covered as being like a, like a little, like a little different. And, and so I kind of had a couple of different questions there. One is he's also known for having like legendary confidence and, and, you know, being able to harness that into, into action. And so is that, you know, is that one of the things he's been able to overcome. And then the second question is kind of like a meta question about the media, which is reflecting on his experience here, now reading parts of your book.

19:25I'm wondering, does the media treat awkwardness unfairly in a bad way? Just curious as your comments on both things. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So I'll comment on the first, which is Russell is, I have a partnership with an organization called Limitless Minds, and I'm so grateful for the work that they do. It's a lot about mindset training and mental skills training. And Russell had some deep mental skills training work from a gentleman who now has passed named Trevor Moad. He was his mental conditioning coach. And so much of Russell's success in Seattle, he attributes to those mental skills, to that self-talk, to the ability to stay in a fumble, a misstep, an interception, and not get hung up, ruminating on the past, the discomfort of that feeling, but rather being able to move to that next right step mentality.

20:15So again, with awkwardness in particular, to eliminate awkwardness implies eliminating uncertainty. We cannot do that. To eliminate adversity in life implies eliminating uncertainty. And what Russell had trained himself to do was to not get hung up in that. It's about comeback rate. What is the self-talk that we use? What are the strategies, the toolkit we call on in order to come back from that quickly? As it relates to the media question, you know, does media or even just business leadership treat awkwardness unfairly? And I think it does. So there's actually some very interesting kind of research that came out of this as well.

20:51When we think about the awkward business archetype or even in athletics, right, in the case of Russell, in business, we see it a lot. So we've got the awkward male leader archetype quite often. We've got the Zuckerbergs, the Elon Musks. We kind of think of them as creative geniuses. These days, we even have that sort of awkward, creative, tattooed CEO, right? There's some archetypes that have become very commonplace. Interestingly, we do not see as many examples of that in women. Often when we see women or women of color, when we think about very successful, awkward women, we tend to see that in comedy, right?

21:28We see Tina Fey, Mindy Kaling, Aubrey Plaza, women who have weaponized their awkwardness in their comedic work. But here's the thing. These are women who are extremely intelligent, hardworking, competent in their own rights. So the media definitely kind of unfairly paints accessibility of this emotion into certain genres of people or types of people. I think men like Russell are men of color. And unfortunately, systemically, whether it's in athletics or in business, there are still a lot of structures that started in the spheres of, you know, heterosexual, cisgendered white males. Those are still the systems.

22:05And for women and women of color especially, confidence tends to still need to look like flawlessness. You know, that's just the system. And so we are slowly making steps towards expressing awkwardness, expressing embarrassment, being more normalized for communities who haven't had those chances in the past. And I think, you know, it's going to be a process, but I think we're getting there. We're moving in the right direction. What's step one for one of the archetypes you described, a woman of color, a man of color, to sort of take the first step to harness this? Sure. I think, you know, ultimately, you know, step one that I will say does not involve them is allyship, right?

22:51So if somebody else has more safety in that room and is able to talk about their missteps, create an environment in the room where everybody can share. You know, one of the things I've done with leaders often is, again, understanding that, you know, underrepresented groups, people of color tend to be disproportionately scrutinized against a level of flawlessness that is not the same as everyone else. one of the best things we can do is be intentional and proactive. So, you know, I talk about this idea of conditioning for awkward. Our social musculature is atrophying. We do not have as many opportunities as we used to, to be in a room with people and share our missteps, share our blunders.

23:31A lot of us are now hybrid or, you know, decentralized. And so what makes it easier for an underrepresented person to speak up about their blunders is making it an intentional practice. So I tell leaders, hey, five minutes at the beginning of a meeting, let's all go around and share some cracked egg stories, something that essentially went sideways in the last month, or have a bad idea brainstorm in which the rules are everyone share an idea for this meeting, but it literally cannot be realistic, right? It has to be like whatever the craziest thing you can come up with. What's interesting is A, it creates that psychological safety because it is now not on a certain type of person to share.

24:11everyone is sharing. And second, the research actually suggests that when you do these types of things at the beginning of the meeting, that the ideas that result afterwards are more creative, more innovative, more generative, because it allows people's armor to come down. Perfection is no longer the standard. But because we don't have these opportunities for reactive social conversations, we have to become much more intentional about creating the space now. So much of this can be stoked by a leader, it sounds like. A leader creating the, I love the sharing the cracked eggs. That's an awesome, awesome idea.

24:50And I want to ask more about being an effective leader. But before I do, are there situations of bad awkward? You know, before we define the good awkward of a leader, What are some things that a leader shouldn't hear my line of questioning and then go the wrong way? Yeah, this is a great question. So in chapter seven, we talk about humor a lot and the use of humor as a way to manage and embrace awkwardness. And there are some rules, right? So leveling does play a role. You don't want to make things awkward when you're using a humor or an anecdote that's somebody beneath of you, right? So there's an expression you can kind of punch up but not kick down.

25:36So when a staff is kind of trying to diffuse the tension of an awkward situation, they can kind of poke fun at the leader and say, oh, man, that was awkward that the CEO said that thing in the meeting. But generally, you don't want to go in the opposite direction. So there's leveling. There's also things like distance and time. So for example, I share a story in the book that there was a leader that had recently had to go through a wave of layoffs and his team of six people or so. two of the team members had to be laid off. And it was pretty, pretty big sting. Everybody really was close with these colleagues.

26:08And there was a meeting led by Fred that normally occurred on a Monday. And you know, the week right after the layoffs, he kind of said something like, okay, time to do the meeting, take it away, Fred, right, who was just laid off. Too soon, right? Too soon. So we want to just be thoughtful about things like time of level of distance, you know, is this something that is for the people in the room? Or are we talking about people that aren't in the room as though they're not there? So there are some rules that we want to think about when we think about what creates awkwardness or how do we address awkwardness, but it really depends on the situation and the context.

26:47Okay. So those are examples of things not to do, particularly with humor. And there's always a fine line with jokes in many cases. For leaders that have idiosyncrasies, eccentricities, is maybe one thing understanding what those are? Like, do you have to have a certain bit of self-awareness about where you are awkward? Yes, I love that framing. It's very important to have the self-awareness. So really, step one in embracing our awkwardness is understanding when you feel it, how you feel it, and where it comes from. So I'll share this idea that some people use this word, this emotion as a state.