Cheeky Panda: Julie Chen on building a bamboo revolution

0:14Hello and welcome to the Tomorrow Brands podcast where we explore what it takes to build a brand of tomorrow. I'm your host, Ruth Vitock, and today we're joined by Julie Chen, CEO and founder of Cheeky Panda, the brand that's turning bamboo into a sustainability movement. From starting in her spare bedroom to landing in Tesco, Julie's built one of the UK's most loved eco brands, and she's done it with creativity, courage, and a panda hat or two. We talk about how the Cheeky Panda started, leading a rebrand, and why for her, brand building is all about evolution, not revolution. Hope you enjoy.

0:45It'd be great to hear your background, how you got to where you are today. I'm Julie from Cheeky Panda. I started business from my spare bedroom about nine years ago. And the idea is to use ultra-sustainable bamboo to produce everyday essentials. We started with toilet paper and now we have facial tissue, kitchen roll, but we also extend it to baby wipes, recently sanitary products. So the idea is to replace things that you use it once and throw it away. we produce them with renewable bamboo instead of trees or plastic. So it makes disposable more sustainable. And you started Cheeky Panda because of one moment which was seeing bamboo growing in China?

1:31Yes, so actually I actually came across bamboo toilet paper before I went to China with my fiancé at that time. Now he's my husband. So I was running an online business and Chris, my husband, and he was running a hair hunting business. So we were still quite young at the time. In our early 30s, we feel, okay, we're both running a lifestyle business. We have so much more to offer. So I start to explore what I can do, then come across like toilet paper made from bamboo. And okay, I used it. I actually like it because I feel good about it. And then I took the opportunity when I went back to China to see my parents with Chris at that time.

2:10We went to see a factory that kind of turned local resource bamboo into high quality toilet paper. So we took a six hour car journey in west of China to see this factory. But what we really amazed is there was so much bamboo there. And this bamboo is not panda's food. They are like, glow like a weed. So you cut it, it goes back. Hardly renewable, but only 10 % were used. There was still like 90 % not been developed, not been used. So it's an endless resource you can turn into high-quality toilet paper. And we just thought, why are we cutting down trees to make things you use for three seconds and throw away?

2:51We have this renewable grass that we're not using. And that was like a Ureta moment. Yeah, we have to do this business. It's fun. It's meaningful. So come back to the UK, register the company. I call it Cheeky Panda. But what I didn't realize is Cheeky Panda, and the idea was like use a Cheeky Panda character, a panda character that's very fun and cheeky to promote sustainable products. But what I didn't realize is like cheeky is a double on tone meaning and it also means bum cheek. So people just feel like it's really fun as a brand. And since then, we launched on Amazon. I called the retailers from my spare room and just slowly snowboarding.

3:33Amazon was a 500 pound in the beginning and then go to a thousand pound. Now it's half a million every month just for Amazon alone. And then we now got into, in the beginning, we were in, we start with Planet Organic, Whole Foods Market, later on got into Boots, Ocado, Weichos, and now we are in Tesco and Morrison's. So it's slowly snowboarding. The quality is good. The brand is really fun. And so there's a high repeat for Cheeky Panda products. And recently we've just done a rebrand, which I'll talk to you more about later. Yeah. And I think repeat rate tells you everything you need to know because that's the sign that the product is good.

4:13And that's what every brand should be focusing on. That's right. What did success mean to you back then when you were starting out and what does it mean now? Success? Back at that time, Chris, my husband, is very passionate. He wanted to IPO. That's like a girl he was driving towards and we were very bored. We would get a lot of funding in the early days. Chris and I wear a panda hat, just go to networking events and make conversation so much easier because we were the two pandas in a room and then even people don't know about Cheeky Panda, very soon they will know about those two people wearing panda hats and they're from Cheeky Panda.

4:55It's a very innovative way of marketing. which Chris and I didn't come from FMCG background. We didn't have marketing knowledge, but it's just doing really bored, crazy things to draw attention. But that kind of contributes to early-day success. And from what Chris said, the panda hat probably gave us at least one million worth of PR value just by wearing panda hats. I'd like to point out for anyone listening that you are wearing a panda hat now as well. So the commitment to the panda hat. Do you have one in your handbag at all times, just in case? All the time, yes. And I find that when we go to awards, we go to events, and then if the event has a photograph, if we wear a panda hat, we are going to be the one appear on social media the next day.

5:47And often on that social media post, people would ask, who are those people wearing panda hats? And someone would say, cheeky panda. That's just organic with the mouse. So you guys, you launched in 2016. So nine years ago at the time, no big budgets, no sort of huge team of agencies. What did, and no background in FMCG, as you just said. So what did you get right by accident? I think it's creativity without restriction is what I would say, because at the time we don't have agency. We don't have professional marketing team. it's almost like any crazy ideas Chris and I have we can just put into practice no one will tell us this is wrong and if that something doesn't work we quickly change pivots and then we'll make it work again so in early days we we did a lot of things like we wear this panda hat to trade shows and we only have a three by two stand very small ones only two of us with two interns but we were Like every show, we were the busiest stand in the whole show because we wear panda hats, but we also offer people chance opportunities to wear panda hats and take a photo with our mascot panda.

7:05And we have this Instagram friend says, love your bum and have cheekypanda.co.uk on the top. So people would wear panda hats and take a selfie with that friend and they would share on social media. So that's organically, you just got a lot of people sharing your story. So last early days, we just do creative and crazy things. There's no marketing research. There's no consumer research saying, oh, you shouldn't wear a panda hat. You shouldn't do this. So we just get right by accident. Not quite by accident, just by being brave. Was there any part of building a sustainable brand that was harder than you expected?

7:45Yes, obviously, kind of great fun in the early days. It wasn't easy, but luckily we did a few rounds of crowdfunding that was quite popular. So we got funded quite easily and then built a team. So guide a young team who also didn't have any FMCG experience. Didn't actually have any experience at my FMCG because they just come out from the university. But everyone was very entrepreneurial, willing to try new things. And those things, it's hard because we have to personally nurture them and guide them. But it's also because the whole team was very entrepreneurial, very brave. So it actually drives ultra high growth.

8:28In the early days, we were growing 40 % young. Yeah, and sometimes doubling the turnover very quick. So then there's lots of challenges along the way, management and things I have to learn that I never done before. But it was almost like it's really fun to do those kind of things. And now I have nine years experience, knows what doesn't work. And now we have more professional team. And now comes with new challenge. How do we become more entrepreneurial as a professional team? You've gone full circle. What point did you start to bring in more professional, more experienced team members? And what were the first departments that you brought the experience into?

9:11About three years ago, we hired an ED. Because we really recognize we didn't have FMCG experience. Someone needs to come in and guide us. Otherwise, there's too much trial and error. You can do it to a certain degree. But as the business becomes more mature, mistakes you make almost like it's quite costly. So we recognized about three years ago, we need to hire NED. Charles Brooke was the first one to become NED. Then we have Simon Duffy, who was, he successfully founded and exited Bulldog Skincare. So very successful. So we had them provide a lot of guidance to me and my team. Then Giles helped me build Chief Operations Officer, Chief Finance Officer, and then a few sales directors.

10:01And later on, we got a marketing lead as well. Nice. so that's yeah the last three years been hiring a team but also optimizing the team what was the first sign that you were onto something and that this was a business that had serious potential i think from day one and if i reflect on it if anything we haven't done enough i know from day one that this is and for my husband's well we know that this is special and although it's a concept i come up for my spare room but we know it's going to make a mark and now reflecting on it we're scratching the surface really there's so much growth we could we can still go after even just in the UK alone so I know in from day one we know we are onto something special let's talk a bit about sustainability and how you talk about that because obviously it's at the driving heart of the business it's the reason that you exist can be a bit tricky to communicate sometimes to consumers do you you is that a big focus for you in your marketing is talking about sustainability or not?

11:07And if so, why? So in the early days, it's all about bamboo, sustainable bamboo. So bamboo grows up to 91 centimeters a day. It's a renewable grass. So you cut it, it grows back. You can actually watch it grow if you have time. So it's kind of one, it's the most renewable, fastest growing resource on the planet. it so that's kind of heart of everything we do everything every product we make is only use bamboo nothing else really apart from like packaging and everything so can it's the early in early days it's a bit novelty and marketing wise we talk about bamboo a lot and we talk about why bamboo in early days there's no competition so something with a bit novelty can break through quite fast But as any brand getting to a slightly more mature stage, you're unavoidable.

12:03We'll have competition and there will be people coming into that space and compete, which is not a bad thing because ultimately you have two or three competitors. They're all singing the right message. They all kind of challenge the traditional way of doing things. It ultimately created a new market, created a new segment, right? and then that changes behavior, which I think competition is a good thing. Ultimately, it also makes our job easier because there's other people also talking about bamboo is a great thing. It's good. But obviously, when a brand gets to a slightly mature stage, it requires a slightly different way of communication.

12:41So your marketing changed. And that's why we start a rebranding process because the initial branding I had for almost eight, nine years, it doesn't fit into the modern trend anymore. It needs a new meaning. It needs a new look as well. So that's the whole reason why we started a new rebranding process. Let's talk a bit about that because I know it was a big, it was a long process. It was a big decision, a big investment, especially given in the early stages you'd been quite scrappy and you'd done a lot of things yourself. It must have felt like a big call to hand that over, to start using agencies and hand that over to someone external.

13:25How did you feel about that and how did you make that decision? And you said there was a time where the brand was maturing, but was there something specific that triggered it? In a slightly mature stage of a brand, you're starting to have competition. So you need a new meaning to stand out. So rather than say, oh, we start with a rebranding, it's probably a realization that we need to start with a repositioning in a slightly more competitive market. So reposition comes first. So we start with the consumer research to understand what do people think about bamboo? What do people think about the pack we had before?

14:05or even including what do people think about founders wearing panda hats, for example. So we had a comprehensive understanding of what consumers think, what they care about, and also looking into competition, what do they think about competitors. So all this data, then we are able to reposition ourselves. So the position we come up with in the end as a team is the cheeky panda is going to be the brand that's leading the bamboo revolution. Because although there are competitors in the space, no one is solely focused on bamboo. No one like us that use bamboo to innovate toilet paper, facial tissue, but also baby wipes, baby nappies, sanitary pads.

14:50So we are a brand that solely use bamboo as a source of innovation. And that's what we do. No one else doing that. And we also conducted sustainability LCA report. is like the industry's first life cycle assessment looking into bamboo impact across 18 different impact categories and just shows like the saving compared to the traditional toilet paper, for example, is between 35 % to 99%. So we have the science to prove our claims and back up what we say to the market. So that gives us a solid knowledge to be able to lead, there will be people follow, But it doesn't matter. We are a leader. We're going to just be more visible, have more knowledge, innovate more.

15:38And that's our position in a slightly more mature market, a mature stage of the brand. And the packaging then have to reflect this repositioning. So then the packaging before was quite green. It's all literally bamboo. So the bamboo we used was kind of Adobe stock. It wasn't very honorable. And Panda and everything logo and the typography need to be refined as well to make it more iconic. And that's the whole work with our design agency. So from research agency, now the work I'm taking to a design agency to redesign the packaging, reflecting the repositioning we come up with. Were there any non-negotiables that you said you have, these things have to stay in the new look and tone?

16:27So for me, it's the Panda logo have to stay. That's non-negotiable. So in the early days, the design agency wants to have freedom. So we give them freedom, but it come up with concepts that completely change the look and feel of the brand. So the whole logo changed. but then what's non-negotiable is we have spent the last nine years building the tricky panda brand building the recognition building the familiarity and then we cannot throw all this away start with a new look and feel completely different from what we had before so the panda logo is non-negotiable so it's not been long out into market has it but has it already Have you started to see it change the way that buyers, partners, or even your own team see the brand?

17:18100%. So the brand launch happened in September. Since we launched it, we have driven a significant amount of momentum. So let's talk about the changes we actually made in the end. So the Panda Head was non-negotiable. So the Panda Head, Panda Logo stays, and that's the iconic brand asset we have. And we actually amplified it pretty everywhere. So every leaflet we send out is actually on a panda head shape, in a leaflet calling shape. So make it more playful. What's changed is, firstly, the typography. The typography now is, before it was quite corporate, now it's more modern. It's like more bought, so more relevant to consumers.

17:58And when you put an asset out with a new typography, it actually draws more attention. So that's the first change. And the second change is the color. We add more color to, originally, the whole branding was green. The whole theme was green. And I actually gave the team quite limited assets to play with because everything they designed has to be green. But now we've made it more colorful. We have a few brand colors because you look at Wild and all these brands, sustainable brands, they are very colorful, very design-led. So sustainability these days is not green or it's not beige. It's not like single color.

18:35I feel at that time when we go through the rebranding process, I want to make sustainability more celebrative. And so we had a bit of debate with the team, whether it's green or colorful. In the end, we decided to add colors. And that is 100 % the right decision because it draws attention on the shelf. And then we had purple. The balsam tissue we had, the premium facial tissue we had, we put purple on it. And the buyers were quite nervous because they'd never seen purple facial tissue on the shelf. But the data so far proved that it really works because it's eye-catching. It's so different. It stands out on the show when it's like corporate green or corporate beige.

19:16And purple really stands out because it's a modern color. It's a premium color. So it really, the rate of sales improved as well. So it worked. Another thing we changed is we dropped Le. So the brand before was Le Chiqui Panda. Now it's Chiqui Panda. It's a very subtle change, very small change. but Cheeky Panda is more kind of character. But Cheeky Panda is really give the brand a voice, permission to have a brand voice as a team who doesn't matter who works on this marketing team for Cheeky Panda, for this brand, they can communicate with Cheeky Panda's tone of voice and have an opinion as well as a brand.

19:58So we dropped that from our logo. Any tips for anyone considering a rebrand? When do you think the time is right? when is the time wrong any key considerations or learnings from this it's going through this experience yourself so rebrand if done right can give a slightly outdated brand a new life because sometimes when brand brand have going stage when it goes through very fast and then get to mature it and then it might decline at some point but it's like how can you make the brand and live as long as possible. So that's called a brand owner, marketer's job. So a rebrand could give a brand that's been in the market for a while a new life, new meaning, and then get people excited about the brand again and talk about the brand again.

20:45The way to do it correctly is that you don't have to rebrand for a rebrand's sake, just for no reason, but rebrand has to have a meaning. And for us, it's that point of driving momentum, brand interest, and get people to talk about Chiqui Panda again. And then obviously ultimately lead to two big supermarket launch, Morrison's and Tesco's. But also we just won the Eco Pack of the Year Award at the Grocers New Product and Packaging Award last Friday. So it's a series of events that actually make the brand more exciting again. So for anybody going through the rebrand process, the number one thing is that because the brand has been in the market for a while, don't throw away your distinctive brand assets.

21:33So those things you need to keep the familiarity, but make it better and change the things. So improve things, but don't change things. And one of the times I learned from one of my mentors is that evolution, not revolution. So you don't have to completely change everything, but makes your existing distinctive assets better. And so that's probably the number one advice I will give to anyone. Was there anything that surprised you about going through this process? Yes. So in the early days when I created a cheeky panel brand, it was very easy. It's like me and then I asked and designer gave me some concept.

22:14I choose the ones I like, sent to my families and friends. They vote. And then me and my designer just worked together to refine the packaging and logo. But when you get to a mature, slightly bigger team, when you get to a scaling stage with your business, you suddenly have a lot of people who want to have their say. So let's make it harder because we all have to achieve alignment. Otherwise, the project will stop and can't progress. But as a founder, I'm still owning the brand. I still, how do you empower your team, but also keep your vision strong? So that's the fine balance of going through this process.

22:57But we got there in the end. It's not easy. There's lots of different opinions and agencies want their opinions as well. They want to put their years of expertise in the brand design. So we all have to work together. So there's lots of discussion, debate, refine data to cut data support as well. So we, in the middle of the rebranding process, we had NIQ fund their brand kind of evaluation as we're going through it. And that was one of the awards I won from them as part of the initiative to support diversity. So we won this initiative that they provide their data to help us choose a few directions.

23:38so a lot of help as well so data coming to help make the decision but ultimately if something I feel very strong about as a founder I still have to hold on to it and like the panda head it's just not negotiable. So let's talk a bit about founder mindset we just alluded to it there so you were saying earlier you went through a period of really rapid growth obviously that's really exciting but it can also be quite chaotic. What keeps you grounded during those more chaotic times? Oh, I think it's like the belief of this is going to be a brand that is going to make a difference and it's doing good things.

24:18It's going to go through these challenges. Is that when you do good things, like good things will happen to you? Very simple. So GFund is a positive brand. There's a lot of things in the middle that will come in and become a challenge for the growth journey. But ultimately, it's doing a good thing. And you will have people's support. You will have investor support. You will have public support. Because ultimately, our goal here is to change the habits so we can choose a more sustainable material. And you've seen great success with the brand so far. I alluded to some of the numbers of what you're doing on Amazon each month, and I know that's only a small part of it.

24:58Has that success changed what you want or how you go about it? No, keep going because it's a job in the ocean in terms of the number of trees being cut down to make toilet paper. We're still yet to make a significant dent. Yeah, the goal is to keep going. If you met your 2016 self now, the one just setting out on this journey, what would you tell her to relax about? I suppose it's relax a bit about the small things and looking at bigger picture and just don't forget about it. Because sometimes when you're into day-to-day, very much sometimes it's caught into the everyday things happening. But ultimately, like looking at a big picture, those small things are not important.

25:44So maybe more time focused on big visions rather than small things. That's what I would probably tell myself. it will start again. What was the bravest no you've said along the way while building Cheeky Panda? Want to change the logo?

26:02There was a logo presented by an agency. It's actually really smart and it's put a Cheeky Panda head inside the Cheeky Panda typography so you can see like a panda head pops through. You can still recognize it's our panda but it's not that obvious. It's a very clever design and I like it so I personally like it as well but almost that panda get lost and the wording is quite difficult to read the whole team at one point voting towards that direction and my I have to go to my investor community ask their opinion as well and ask people who are not marketers not in my team so I can get fresh understanding and then there were two opinions one really like the new direction but the investors feel we're going to lose a lot of people who, if this new logo appears on the website, people might not recognize it's Chiqui Panda, think it's a copycat, which is possible because people have three seconds to make their purchase decision.

27:05So ultimately, hold on to those things and just follow your gut. I think it's quite important, actually, when there's lots and lots of opinions, to still follow your gut, make the decision. But ultimately, I think like I had a decision. If I'm still the founder and the CEO driving the growth of the brand, I ultimately take responsibility. So there are certain decisions just have to hold on to it. But the rest of the decision 100 % empower my team. And once we get alignment on certain things, once we understand the principles and have alignment on other growth strategies, I don't have to involve in the details.

27:46the team can make a decision and they're totally empowered to do their thing. But it's just a few principles we have to make sure it's there and it's aligned across the team. So what's next for you and for Cheeky Panda? So keep growing. Keep growing as fast as Bamboo. That's our goal. And we just launched into Tesco's and Morrison's. Now the challenge is to make the rate of sales really good so we can expand further and then get more people aware of Cheeky Panda as a brand and what we do and our meaning, our purpose. What's one thing every founder should know before trying to build a purpose-led business?

28:26They should be aware like the roles ahead is not easy. They will have a lot of challenges, obstacles, but these are all normal and make it fun because these are all part of fun and learning from mistakes are fun. and keep learning as well because every day I read a lot of books, business books, brand books, just to make myself more relevant to different stages of the growth journey. So as a kind of founder or CEO still leading a growth brand, purpose-led brand, it's very important to learn and to keep yourself knowledgeable, relevant to the modern, kind of ever-changing things around the world like AI and all these things that we all have to learn.

29:08I'm going to do a few quick fire questions now. So first big pinch me moment. Going to Tesco is, oh my God, I've been working for LAD for so long. And Morrison's as well. We've been working for LAD for quite a few years. And it was like seeing Lowe's, our new brand, appear on the shelves of some of the, like two of the biggest supermarkets in the UK. It's just surreal. And that was like pinch me moment. And your business hero? My latest one is Rachel Harpin. and he's my mentor. He's been personally mentoring me. He's a founder of Homeserve, scale business from£50 ,000 investment to£4 billion. So I'm in his business leader community.