FC Bayern Munich: The Best Run Club in Football - [Business Breakdowns, EP. 110]

29:14And Amazon Prime, for example, has entered that market recently in Germany. So they now show a Champions League game every week and they get the top pick of which game they want to show. And then the largest bucket gets the best at the end. Making up more than half of Bian's total revenue is commercial. In the past season of the more than 600 million that Bian generated in revenue, 378 million was commercial. Now what do we mean by commercial? It includes anything from merchandise, swag, so buy -and -fanscaps, buy -and -bedding. You can basically buy blankets with a logo, posters, pens, coffee mugs, toasters, all of that, and of course jerseys is a huge one.

30:04But it also includes sponsorships. That for buy -and -is a huge part. So I just said the magical number of 378 million, almost 400 million in commercial revenue and of that almost 130 million is just generated through the jersey. By that I mean that small garment that 11 players wear every match day for the right to be on that jersey or produce that jersey in Adidas's case. There are some big companies that pay a lot of money. So we'll start with Adidas or Adidas as with this pronounced in American. Let's go with the German pronunciation because I think that's probably the right way. Thank you.

30:44Yeah, so Adidas pay 60 million euros a year to produce Bians Jersey. And then you have Deutsche Telekom who just increased their deal from 30 to 45 million a season. and they've extended that deal and Deutsche Telekom has been by Hans main Jersey sponsor for more than a decade. And then you have Aliens. We can count this as Jersey, but they, of course, pay for the naming rights to Bians' home grounds to the stadium at the Aliens Arena. They also pay around 10 million, I think now 13 million a year for that luxury. And lastly, and most controversially, Qatar Airways, the flagship airline from Qatar, where the World Cup was hosted, they pay 20 million euros to be on the sleeve, which to me is hilarious, because it's just a tiny spot.

31:39And that's where they have their airlines logo. And the reason I said that that's controversial is because German fans, the public, and especially the Bayern Munich fans have heavily, heavily protested that sponsorship in the stadium at the grounds on social media, at shareholders meetings. Before that, it was Luft Tanz, our German company, and the Bayern fans have taken issue with Qatar's status on human rights, women's rights, gay rights, and of course, it's a state -owned company. So at a club where the fans have a lot to say, the supporters have a big influence over decision -making, that That is a controversy.

32:18It's really interesting and I think the thing that strikes me about a lot of these deals that you mentioned and I think they make the most of any club in the world from commercial partnerships in football anyway is the long term nature of these partnerships. Their partnership with Adidas goes back almost like 56 years you said Deutsche Telekom has been on the shirt for a decade or so. Their partnership with Audi, he was also an investor in the business, is long term. I think the strength of these commercial partnerships speaks a little bit to buy Munich's place both in Germany and Germany in Europe itself as the biggest economy.

32:49And this is by far the biggest team in the biggest economy in Europe. It does that have some influence on how they're able to monetize these commercial relationships at such a high rate? I would say so. Yeah. And thank you for pointing that out. And it's not just that Germany is the wealthiest economy in the European Union and also on the European continent. I think Germany is the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world by GDP. That's a factor, of course, but then within Germany, Germany has 80 million people. And it's a very decentralized country. So if you're in the UK or in France, a lot of young people move to the capital cities to London and Paris, respectively, because that's where industry and government are centered in Germany, Berlin, the nation's capital is actually one of the poorest large cities and there isn't one economic nucleus or cultural nucleus for the country.

33:42It's very divided across places like Stuttgart, which is known for automotive industry, Kologne, which is kind of the media capital of Germany, media and entertainment, Düsseldorf, Big and the Arts and in finance, Hamburg, shipping, a huge international shipping giant, Frankfurt for banking and Munich. Munich by any measure is Germany's wealthiest city. I can praise Bayern for having local supporters and local companies like Aliens, Adidas and Audi, but that's pretty easy if you have those companies in your backyard. Not many clubs have that luxury. For example, Borussia Dortmund, Bayern's strongest domestic rival, They're from one of the poorest areas in Germany from the industrial rural valley and most of that industry is gone It was always steel and coal and iron and those industries are all in decline or already completely evaporated So their local partners are companies like Evonik or RWE energy companies, but although they're also international those companies of course they're not as glittering, shimmering and vastly growing as the aforementioned by a Munich partners.

35:00They're in the right place but they've also been able to develop long -term relationships which I guess is part execution and part luck there and maybe we can call it that. On the broad casting point you mentioned there are only roughly 200 million euros. Half of that is domestically and half of that is from Europe. I think we should underline exactly how important European football is to almost every top flight European club and how that gets split in terms of the money they earn from being in European competitions because I think some of it is the TV rights but also there's prize money and also other pieces to that equation in terms of the money they earn from Europe.

35:36Definitely. For example, for Bayern, I mentioned the UEFA club co -efficient which usually tracks the performance of European teams in European competitions for the previous five years, literally up to that match day. And in that ranking, Bian is number one, Man City is second, Chelsea is third, then Liverpool, then Real Madrid, and then Paris Saint -Germain. And it's these arbitrary figures, some mathematical system. So Bayan has, for example, 135 ,000 points. When you hear a fan say, oh, Bayan is first in Europe, everyone would be like, what? What does that even mean? Usually, we equate that with winning the Champions League.

36:17It's not just some UEFA mapping because this turns into literal money. Part of the Champions League revenue broadcasting stream that is distributed by the UEFA is based on that coefficient. and I can pull up some data here from the Champions League TV revenue in the previous season. And by Ununic, made 115 million euros from Champions League TV revenue. So maybe some of our listeners were remembered that I said that last year they made about 95 million euros from the Bundesliga revenue. So there you can already see how profitable it is to perform well in the Champions League. about the 115 million.

37:0214 million more than the third of that was based on the UAFA coefficient. So you can call that performance induced over the past five years. And then another 40 million of that was by prize money for that season. So how well they did that season. Last year they unfortunately were eliminated in the round of 16. but it just goes to show that that money, the Champions League money distributed by UEFA, it really is worth not just qualifying for the competition but doing well and doing well in the long run. And I know that's more easily said than done, but as is shown by this club ranking, Bayern has managed to do that in the past five years.

37:46I mean, there are obviously very direct benefits in terms of the money you just mentioned, but they're also indirect benefits of the merchandise and guys we talked about selling $100 million worth of source shirts and various other things around the world and to champions' league as kind of the holy grail of club football watched all across the world. So it's really important. You see this fight obviously to win these leagues, but also the top four or five that make it into the top European competition every year. In many ways, the first objective for these big clubs is to be there by the end of the year and then obviously to win the league is the cherry on top of the cake.

38:17It all flows into each competition. You play with the same squad in both competitions or in multiple competitions, because you have the domestic competitions as well. And looking at this, for example, Wolfsburg, a smaller club, they generated 40 million last year in Champions League revenue. And that's 40 million more than any other German team made that. So it really does pay off. But of course, this also shows again the uneven distribution and how that trickles down into the local league. because Borussia Dortmund last season made 62 million to buy -ans 115 million in the Champions League. And they already also make less by Bundesliga broadcasting revenue.

38:58And so it's hard. It's hard for Borussia Dortmund to compete when they have fewer money to spend on salaries and on transfer fees. And they're in a weaker economic area in the west of Germany to buy -ans southern location and Munich. it's all interrelated. And it also speaks to, if you're in the Champions League, as a huge draw to be able to buy players because they're attracted by playing midweek and under the bright lights of Europe, which brings us onto the transfer policy, which is important for every football club. Obviously, there are a few different ways you can go about bringing players in.

39:33You can buy them. You can build them up through the academies or you can buy them on loan. So if we talk a little bit about buying a transfer policy, how have they traditionally operated are they buyers, builders, borrowers and anything that's important on this side of the equation. I think it's currently a transition. Bayern have traditionally been buyers, especially of domestic talent from the Bundesliga. Big names come to mind like Mario Gutser, who was acquired from Borussia Dortmund at the age of 19 or Robert Lewandowski. To me, the best European number nine striker that we've seen in the past decade.

40:10He also came from Borussia Dortmund. So if you're a big star either of German nationality or coming through the ranks in Germany at a German club, it's almost inevitable that you will land at Bayern Munich. That's the law of the land. Pretty heartbreaking for every other club in Germany. It is, it is. Yeah, it's funny because when great players don't land at Bayern but they land at Dortmund, the rival, then you often have Bayern and people in charge grunt the old bitter in the media and they'll say, well, that player doesn't have the biad mentality. They'll explain it away. Explain it away, explain it away why they didn't snatch up those players.

40:50To give you an example there, Jaden Sancho, who became a global star at Borussia Dortmund, Bian was also interested in him as a youth player. But Borussia Dortmund could say, look, well, we made Christian Policik into a star who then went to Chelsea. we made Mario Gutsa into a star, we made Marco Royce into a star, and basically they could promise him a better vision of playing time and experience and European competition. And then as soon as there was one occasion where San Joe was late to burst his dog on training or something, and this was after he had scored against Bayern Munich and all of that.

41:27Soon as there was a littlest criticism, Bayern was like, oh well, that's why we didn't sign him. But of course, squad spaces are limited, so it's not like Bayan can sign 80 players. So of course they miss out on someone, have to make tough decisions. But in the past years, their philosophy has often been to be a developer of young talent. And that's economically motivated by the rise of the Premier League and also the financial influence of new players internationally like Paris Saint -Germain, Manchester City, AC Milan, Inter Milan, who have both been flooded by that money and you ask about loans.

42:08Again, this is something that Bayern never did previously and they mocked clubs that did do it out of necessity. A loan deal is very good business in many ways. You pay only the salary of a player who's on the balance sheet at another club, load him for half a season or a season or two years, but you don't have the risk of having to sell that player on with their lose market value or something. In many cases, big clubs really want to get rid of players and then they'll even handle some of the salary of that player. But by and previously, always said, well, this is basically human trafficking. We don't do this.

42:48And that's changed in previous years. So for example, Chames Rodriguez, the Colombian starlet who had his big coming out party at the 2014 World Cup where he scored some beautiful goals including against Brazil. When he came to Bayern on loan a few years ago he had more social media followers than the club. So it goes to show the increased influence of individual stars over clubs and I think we can say that across sports that some players or drivers, if we were talking about Formula One or any competition, are now bigger, commercial entities than franchises or clubs. And that's certainly been an interesting development.

43:32But that was the case with Framins Rodriguez. So he came on loan from Real Madrid, Real Madrid continued paying some of his salary because Bayern was like, well, we're not paying that huge salary that you guys negotiated. And he helped Bayern win the Champions League, But to go back to the buying of young players, of course sometimes that works out like with Kingsley Koma who scored by Hans Chammings League winning goal three years ago, but you also have signings like Remato Sanchez who did very well at the Euros for Portugal in 2016 when Portugal won with Cristiano Ronaldo. Renato Sanchez at the time was one of the key players and by signed him for 35 million euros and he never played a key role.

44:14He was loaned out to Swansea and was on the bench for Swansea to give you some context there. So you do make a net loss on players like that. But somehow I think Bayern's philosophy is if you buy them early enough and give them some minutes in this team, some clubs will be interested in them. And that's what happens. Mark Locker went to Leeds. He never was a big player at Bayern but Bayern actually made a profit on his back if you want to call it that. So there are all these examples where that pays off for them. This kind of speaks again to their savviness as a club because they've also got financial clout to buy big names on big salaries.

44:51But they also, if you look over the last five to ten years, they tend to be net sellers in the market so they're making more money than they're spending. And I think last year they made 55 million euros in transfer market. So, you know, on an operating revenue base of 600 million, that's just shy of 10%, which obviously can go by the way for many clubs. They tend to be net buyers and losing money in the market. So I think that definitely sort of underlines, again, the business model and the business acumen around this club. Definitely. And actually, if I can add to that, as calculated by Deloitte, the consultancy and financial analysis firm who do one of the best football business reports each year.

45:27between the years of 2018 and 2022, I had a transfer net income of 12 .1 million euros, which doesn't sound like much. You can't really count that as like a revenue stream by any measure, but to give you some comparison, that's across four seasons. And in football, there are two transfer windows each season and the winter and in the summer. And Chelsea in the past winter spent, I think, £450 million, so probably 500 million euros on players alone. So I doubt that they'll have a net transfer income positive anytime soon. It's hard to compare our right, it's comparing apples to oranges because again, buy -on is restricted.

46:11If you want to call that by 50 plus one and they have to be profitable. And so I think we've run through another revenue side on how buy and make money. The flip This is the expenses. Unsurprisingly, there's one huge cost item which tends to be the same for most football clubs. Obviously, that's wages dominated by players. I think from why I could see the score was valued at 921 million euros and the wage bill is fairly large. So can you just talk us through exactly how big the wage bill is for the club and how that compares across the football teams? So for Bayern, the total wage bill for the current season for 2022, 23 on the player side.

46:49So just the squad of professional players is £219 million. So that's about 250 million euros. And then the total staff costs, so including the 1000 plus employees and the coaching staff and everyone is £350 million euros. Bayern is definitely in the top four of European clubs in terms of player salaries, but just for comparison stakes for the German league, it's interesting. RB Leipzig, they've played Champions League for three years running. Their salary sheet for their players is 71 million pounds, so that's about a third of Bayern's. And it gives you a bit of an idea of the national versus international scale of these salaries.

47:39And it's always important to have a healthy relationship between staff costs and operating revenues, of course. We talked about the revenue, the annual revenue that Bayan makes being between 600 and 700 million euros each year. And the total staff costs were 350 million euros for this season. So that's actually 58 % staff costs versus operating revenues. that's quite healthy. There are for example some English clubs in the lower ranks of the table. So your Brightons and West Hams and they have a percentage of 85 everton even has 96 % revenue to wages. So that's a very very slim margin for everything else that it takes to run a professional football club.

48:30Whenever you hear about AOAgers or staff costs at football clubs, do you hear something about financial fair play? Can you explain what financial fair play is and what they're trying to get at? Yeah, so it's a few regulations kind of all packed into one into this one framework of financial fair play. But the overall goal is to prevent clubs from going bankrupt by overspending. And that can happen very quickly because, of course, unlike other sports, you also have transfer fees that are paid when a player who's still under contract with one club joins another club and oftentimes something that's not very commonly known.

49:10These large transfer fees are spread over many years. So they're basically paid in chunks in installments and that can quickly add up year over year. For example, when one club plays Champions League one year and then three years later it's in the second division and it's still paying for Champions League striker that's very dangerous. So yes, FIFA and the UEFA want clubs to have costs, they basically have this max threshold of 70 % that they want the costs fired to be in relation to revenue. And if the UEFA's Neuros also say that if a club has losses of over 60 million euros over three years, then there's basically a punishment.

49:53And a big goal of this whole system is also to reduce the impact of agent fees because there are some very famous footballing agents like Mimil Raiola who died last year but who had some very very famous clients including Elling Harland, Pini Tsahavi, the Israeli agent, and sometimes they make upwards of 20 % of a transfer fee in just extra fees for themselves. So if you're talking about a 100 million euro transfer, then that's 20 million in the pockets of the agent. So that's also something that they want to target. Another key aspect of it, which I think is worth mentioning, is for youth players.

50:34There are now very tight regulations when a club from one academy joins the player from another academy. There's a minimum fee, although they're not professional yet, but it's basically also to pay the club for their efforts in educating that player. And right now, for example, Cologne, a Bundesliga team in Germany, they are being punished by that reasoning. So they signed a player from Eastern Europe, a striker, a 17 -year -old, and they didn't want to pay the 250 ,000 Euro fee to his club to the academy. So they basically asked the player to quit his club and then signed him as a free agent the next day.

51:13And yeah, so you can just see the different hacks that clubs think of and Colone now is being punished. They're not allowed to participate in the transfer market in the next two windows. They're not allowed to sign any new players. So It's good that it's starting to be enforced, but of course, you only need to look at the ownership structure or ownership units of some of these clubs and you're wondering, does this really work on a practical level? Yeah, I think clubs are happy to go to court for many years to stretch their stuff out. Is that generally what the punishment is? They're not asking you into the transfer market or are there other ways that they get punished?

51:45Yeah, another way that they can be punished is losing points in the domestic competitions or being disqualified and not allowed entry to the European competitions. So the Champions League, the Europa League and the Conference League. And so far, that's been threatened. For example, Chelsea was punished with it a few years ago, but then they went to court and were able to participate. So it ends up being a bit of loyering up to get what you want. And they won't dry, I can't understand what's going on. Yeah, I don't think any of us truly understand what's going on. I can summarize these rules as I did, but then how they're applied is always another matter.

52:27I try to design this conversation around buying strategy, which you mentioned at the top, is like most businesses, this is a flywheel, sporting strength, brand and fans and then financial strengths. We went a bit out of order because the financials are so important. But the last piece of this is the fans and binds brand. We've indirectly covered both. I want to understand how they've managed to call to a such a big following. You talked about the biggest membership fan base in the world. How have they done that for a team that is very sort of German centric in many ways? How they built such a big global base?

52:56And how do they try and grow their fan base year over year? It's interesting because we can romanticize being a Bavarian club. And they certainly do that. The club each year, there's an official outfitter who gives the players their later hosem and their team photos where they're all holding beer by the beer sponsor Paulana and then they go to the the nicest tent at the October 1st and all of that is very local but of course it's already a saturated market. You're not going to acquire many more fans apart from maybe young children in Germany so you have to look abroad for new fans who are going to strengthen your brand and your balance sheet.

53:39And Bayern has done that. As I've mentioned, they have commercial offices on the ground with their own staff, so not run by agencies in New York City and Shanghai. Each summer, they go on international tours where they play exhibition games. So in the previous five years, I believe they've always gone to the US and played in the international champions competition there against other top European teams and they've played for example at the Green Bay Packers Stadium. It's a very grassroots approach but on a global level. By grassroots I mean literally getting your hand and feet being on the ground and not sending people and suits abroad but sending the players abroad.

54:24They have this system of club legends. Some really illustrious names there like Giovanni Elba, the Brazilian striker or Lottamateos who won the ball on door as the last and only German player to get that individual award. And of course, Franz Beckenbauer, all of these club legends at the end of every season, normally in the last home game when Bayern celebrates the German trophy with beer showers and the like, they all appear before the game in their beautiful red blazers, the club blazers, it's all symbolic, but what a lot of people don't know is that those players fly across the world for Bayern throughout the season and do things like open footballing training camps for youth or go to a supporters club in Shanghai when they stream a Bayern game.

55:17There'll be like a Bayern legend walking around and drinking beers with the fans abroad. It sounds trivial, but I think these are things that if you're ever at one of these events, because not every buy -and -fan can make it to Munich to see a home game. If you get to meet Philip Lam or Bastien Schweinstein or the older legends, you're going to remember that forever, that really pays off in, I think, brand loyalty, which is a rare good in such a fast -moving sport, because at the end of the day success is the best product to get back to that. But one thing that they've done extremely well abroad and at home is helping fan clubs organize and there are now 4 ,500 bi and unique fan clubs across the world and those are just official fan clubs that are the very least emailed by and to say hey can you send us some swag where by a unique fan club in Indonesia there are probably way more unofficial fan clubs where people I don't know an LA just to meet in a bar among five of them to watch games early in the morning, but 700 plus, so more than 700 of those are foreign.

56:27So you have fan clubs in Malaysia or Uruguay or Mexico. That's very impressive because that's on the ground organization that is supported by Bayern Munich, but not organized by Bayern Munich. So I think that's a huge sign of how successful the club and the brand is in terms of recognition abroad. That's certainly something that they can then cash in on in terms of merchandise and brand experiences and the like. You mentioned kind of winning often is the best way to cultivate a following and that really seems to be the biggest risk for this business and it's not something unique to this discussion or something that's talked about a lot.

57:07I mean the risk seems to be in some ways that they're too successful for own good. They've won 10 Bundesliga in a row. You said this year is a lot more competitive, but they're still at top of the table. Is that the biggest risk here that buying ultimately makes the Bundesliga an uncompastively? That means that the rights deals for the Bundesliga weakens over time and then that's sort of killing the competition that they need to be in? It's a lose -lose in a way because if I am continues to win, as you say, it weakens the product or the domestic league, which means Bayern is less attractive to watch and less attractive to fans and TV broadcasters, but if they don't win, then they don't win.

57:52It's kind of like a loose lose in that sense. I mean, Bayern, in a way, is a bad example, but if you look at sports as a risky investment based on sporting performance, maybe look at a club like Chelsea, who are currently outside of the qualifying spots for the Champions League. They're really struggling in the domestic league and that might cost them a place in Europe's top flight next year. And it's hard. You have so little control as an investor. You can buy great players, but they still have to perform. They have to settle into the culture, into the club, get on with the coach. And that's different from other industries.

58:33football just by increasing your squad by signing more players, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get better results. And that's of course why it's different in the US. You have the franchise model where you basically buy a ticket to the competition. You're starting fee, which I think for the MLS now, if someone were to join, is something like $300 million for a new soccer fee, which is to your opinions, that's insane. But to Americans, it's insane that you can get relegated because why would any investor want that? This brings us to the European super league, which was an idea bangrolled by J .P.

59:14Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs, orchestrated by 10 clubs, many of whom are American owned and then, of course, abandoned after heavy criticism. And here, to have mentioning that, by Unmunech and Boris Hedotman were both approached to ask if they wanted to become a part of this kind of super league, which is literally the name that we've got given. And both of these German clubs said no. And you could say, again, oh, that's really sweet, a romantic and loyal to the fans or whatever. But there's a case we made that both of these teams in their own way profit from playing in Germany and profit from the 50 plus one system because it protects them in a way from a hostile take over, so we'll just speak.

59:58It's all interconnected, as we've said before. European Super League aside, because I think that's a slightly different beast. We'll see what happens, whether that raises head again. On the league level, is there any discussion about sharing revenue more equitably to increase competition, or would that be completely unpalatable to teams like Biomunic? Yeah, I mean, it's both. Yes. Bion doesn't want that, and they have, as good an argument as the other clubs, because they say, look, we've won the league 10 years in a row, and we make a net profit with debt free. Why should we be punished for the mismanagement of other clubs?

1:00:39And then the other teams say, look, we're on the brink of bankruptcy. We might have to sell our stadium. We always have to sell our best players. Why can't you help us? Because if you help us, you help yourself, because then the Bundesliga becomes better. German football becomes better. It's tough. I think although Bayern is the only entity on one side of that argument, they're a big entity. And Bayern, again, this goes back to the club legends and how the club is run at the top by former players. They've always done very well politically, so they don't limit themselves to running the club. But for example, Karl -Hannes Rumeneger, the former chairman of the board, was also president of the European club association, which is a group of the biggest 10 European clubs that often act as a lobby.

1:01:28So they'll talk among themselves about what they want to ask the UEFA to do and then they'll approach the UEFA and then the UEFA who runs the Champions League basically has to say yes because if you have the Champions League without Liverpool, Real Madrid, etc. then no one's going to watch it. So Romani goes very powerful and that arena, for example now, Now a former Bayern player, Philip Blam, is head of the organizing committee for the Euros to be hosted next year in Germany in 2024. In the 2006 World Cup, which was hosted in Germany, were organized, at least officially by Franz Beckenbauer, who at the time was president of FC Bayern Munich.

1:02:09It's all about networking, contacts, and flexing your muscles in the international arena as well. Yeah, they really do seem to be very buttoned up across the board in this business. We always wind down these conversations in the same way, no matter the topic whether it's a business or a football club. What lessons have you learned studying this club by Munich and all football just in general that people can take away from this conversation? I think I'll answer it at least the beginning with the official club slogan of Bayern Munich. It's called Miez and Miez, which sounds more like Latin language, but it's basically colloquial Bavarian.

1:02:46Mia San Mia in German means Via Zindvia, which you have any German listeners, it's kind of like we are who we are. I mean, now I've translated it, but it still sounds cryptic. I think what is meant by this, speaking as a Northern German, who's not local to the region, although I do live here now, it means we won't apologize for who we are. You can be jealous of us or criticize us and we're rich, we're successful, we're Bavarian and we're fine with that as it is. It's a self -understanding or self -image which just explains some of their success and it's not always likable. For example, the Bion Munich fans, one of their chance is Ainshush and Tua de Bion de Bion, which means like one shot, one goal, that's Bion, that's Bion and it's arrogant or cocky but it is exactly how they operate.

1:03:39They are just brutally efficient, fantastically successful, very flashy, very glamorous, and still at their core, very local, and very Bavarian, which I think as a region is kind of like the Texas of Germany, culturally. It's its own unique region with the mountains and the beer, breweries and the October Fest and all of that and the different accent. And so as a learning point for what people can take away as a lesson from how Biden has been so successful for so long, I would say is be true to yourself, be proud and local and believe in your roots, although that's not always very sexy, invest in your academy, try to generate your own talent, because that's going to be a huge identification vacation factor for the fans.

1:04:32They're gonna hugely support your club if you have some local players who talk like them and dress like them. You'll gain the trust in loyalty and also the patience of your fans more than if you just buy a name on every season or so. And it's things that are not glamorous. Players like Tiago who now doesn't play there anymore. He plays at Rift Liverpool, Oralbad Levant -Dovsky who is now at Barcelona. These world stars, every fall drive to local breweries in the middle of nowhere or to high school gyms and they visit these local fan clubs of which I mentioned there are 4 ,500 in the world and they all visit sometimes they drive three hours to the north of Bavaria to visit a fan club at a local casino or something and then they'll dance with old ladies and receive collages handmade by the fans.

1:05:28And I think all of these players probably are like, oh, do I really have to do this? But then once they're there, they're also going to remember that because they'll play for other big teams, perhaps over their lifetime. But coming so face to face with what this club means locally for the region, for the supporters, it's unique in the stay and age where trainings are often close to fans and there's video analysis and spies of different teams and players live in different areas and to the fans and really are shielded by and unique is not like that. They very cleverly monetize not being like that.

1:06:11It's part of that brand and part of that image and somehow that's an image and a brand and a club that people as far away as Shanghai or New York want to be a part of. Yeah, it's fascinating. The big thing for me from this conversation is almost kind of like the founder mentality that pervades the whole of the club from the players up. I think I remember reading once Manchester United players under the ear of Sir Alex Bergson when they were extremely successful. They talked about how he made sure that they treated every person in the club from the chef all the way to their boss himself. They're one club and together you win and you lose.

1:06:46This has been a fascinating discussion about probably the best run for the club in the world. I might argue, so thank you so much for walking us through it. Thank you for having me. And if you're listening, look up Mia Sun Mia because it's kind of the recipe, in my opinion, to buy a Munich success. To find more episodes of breakdowns ranging from casco to visa to Moderna, or to sign up for a weekly summary, check out joincolasers .com. That's J -O -I -N -C -O -L -O -S -S -U -S dot com.