In short
Business History Podcast: Episode Summary
Episode Title
Bowie, McCartney & Michael Jackson: How Songwriters Learned to Play Hardball
Overview This episode discusses the evolution of songwriters' rights in America, particularly highlighting the formation of the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP) and its impact on the music industry. The discussion covers significant events and figures throughout music history, including Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson, and David Bowie, illustrating how songwriters turned their creations into profitable assets.
Key Themes and Discussions
The Need for Copyright Protection
- In the early 1900s, successful songwriters were often left without financial gains from their work.
- The collective action problem faced by songwriters led them to band together to secure their rights.
Formation of ASCAP
- Victor Herbert's Lawsuit: In 1913, composer Victor Herbert sued a restaurant for royalties when his song was played without payment. This lawsuit prompted the creation of ASCAP in 1914.
- ASCAP's Power: The organization gained power by enforcing copyright and representing songwriters, establishing itself as a monopoly over music rights.
Impact of Radio
- The advent of radio in the 1920s became a pivotal moment for ASCAP as it expanded its reach into public performances and demanded fees from radio stations.
- A Supreme Court ruling confirmed that radio stations had to pay for music being played, further solidifying ASCAP's power.
The Cartel Dynamic
- ASCAP, under Gene Buck's leadership, began to overreach by demanding high fees from radio stations, which led to resentment and pushback.
- Broadcasters formed a rival organization, Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI), to provide alternative music rights, including for genres like country and blues that ASCAP had excluded.
The Battle for Music Rights
- The conflict between ASCAP and BMI resulted in a more equitable market for songwriters, eventually leading to a decline in ASCAP's strict control over royalties.
- This competition led to increased revenue and opportunities for a broader range of artists.
Notable Figures
- Paul McCartney: Advocated for the importance of owning music rights and later faced conflicts with Michael Jackson over song ownership.
- Michael Jackson: Transformed the concept of music rights as assets when he purchased the Beatles catalog, showcasing the financial potential of song ownership.
- David Bowie: Innovated the music finance landscape with Bowie Bonds, allowing him to retain rights to his music while still generating revenue.
Conclusion The evolution of music rights and the establishment of ASCAP and BMI demonstrate the ongoing struggle for artists to control and profit from their work. This episode illustrates how songwriters learned to navigate their rights, ultimately turning songs into valuable financial assets in the music industry.
Key Takeaways
- The collective action of songwriters led to the formation of ASCAP, which fundamentally changed the music rights landscape.
- The emergence of radio and rival organizations like BMI created competition, benefiting artists and broadening access to various musical genres.
- Ownership of music rights has become a lucrative asset, leading to innovative financial models such as Bowie Bonds.
Contact Information
- For questions or feedback, listeners can write to: [businesshistory@pushkin.fm](mailto:businesshistory@pushkin.fm)
Related Links
- [Oura Ring](https://auraring.com)
- [Odoo](https://odoo.com)
References
- Episode transcript for detailed insights and quotations.
- Historical context on ASCAP, BMI, and the evolution of music rights in America.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Shift in Songwriters' Power
1:00 to 2:19
Explore how songwriters transitioned from being underpaid to claiming their rights.
“For a long time, the path to the top was about efficiency.”
The Early 1900s Songwriting Landscape
2:19 to 3:47
Understand the historical context of songwriters' struggles in the early 1900s.
“Just because you own something, even with a patent or a copyright, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily make money off of it, profit off of it.”
Victor Herbert's Legal Battle
3:47 to 4:59
Learn about Victor Herbert's pivotal lawsuit that changed music copyright.
“This is Business History, a show about the history of business.”
Formation of ASCAP
4:59 to 6:20
Discover how the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers was formed.
“A composer named Victor Herbert, he's feeling a little peckish, walks into a restaurant in Times Square called Shanley's.”
Collective Action and Copyright
6:20 to 7:40
Examine the collective action problem faced by songwriters and their solutions.
“So, after his meal, Herbert calls up Shanley, the owner, and he informs him that, you know, copyrights do exist, even in 1913.”
ASCAP's Enforcement Strategy
7:40 to 10:13
Understand ASCAP's approach to enforcing music copyright and collecting royalties.
“worth your time to try and figure out if a piano player is playing your song in some random restaurant or bar.”
The Impact of Radio on Music Copyright
10:13 to 11:33
Explore how the emergence of radio changed the landscape for songwriters.
“Whether it pays or not, the purpose of employing it is profit.”
The Radio Revolution Begins
11:33 to 14:01
Learn about the first radio broadcasts and their significance for music rights.
“Or you could pay us a tiny percentage of the money you make in your restaurant and then you can play anything you want from our collective of musicians.”
The Origins of Radio Broadcasting
14:01 to 14:26
Learn about the early days of radio broadcasting and its evolution.
“We'd appreciate it if anyone hearing this broadcast would communicate with us, as we are very anxious to know how far the broadcast is reaching and how it is being received.”
The Role of ASCAP in Music Rights
14:27 to 16:14
Discover how ASCAP emerged as a key player in music copyright laws.
“And importantly, at this time, music on the radio was played live.”
Show all 28 chapters
ASCAP's Shift from Underdog to Power
16:15 to 16:38
Understand ASCAP's transformation into a powerful music cartel.
“But they are about to go way too far in their quest to control music.”
The Rise of Gene Buck
16:39 to 16:50
Explore the leadership of Gene Buck within ASCAP and its implications.
“He is the composer of, get ready, Ben, Daddy Has a Sweetheart, and Mother is Her Name.”
Gene Buck: The Godfather of ASCAP
16:51 to 17:16
Uncover the aggressive tactics employed by Gene Buck in his tenure.
“Gene Buck is about to run ASCAP like the Godfather.”
Gene Buck's Controversial Decisions
20:34 to 22:20
Delve into Buck's controversial practices regarding music rights and race.
“We got Gene Buck, who is apparently not a sweetheart, running ASCAP.”
Radio Stations Fight Back
22:21 to 23:45
Learn how radio stations challenged ASCAP's power and fees.
“So at this point, it is all about the radio.”
The Arrest of Gene Buck
23:46 to 25:45
Examine the dramatic arrest of Gene Buck and its implications.
“Louisiana, Tennessee, and importantly for this story, Montana.”
Formation of Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI)
25:46 to 28:00
Understand how BMI was created as a response to ASCAP's dominance.
“But this shows you how serious this fight was getting.”
The Birth of BMI and Its Strategy
28:00 to 29:08
Learn about the formation of BMI and its strategy to compete with ASCAP.
“And the idea behind BMI is there's a lot of music that ASCAP has not captured.”
Carl Haviland's Innovative Ideas
29:08 to 31:28
Discover the innovative strategies Carl Haviland employed at BMI.
“In 1935, he was working for a radio station.”
The ASCAP Ultimatum and Its Consequences
31:28 to 33:56
Explore the dramatic consequences of ASCAP's ultimatum on the music industry.
“And there was this moment a few weeks ago when he was like, yes.”
The Evolution of Music Licensing
33:56 to 35:28
Understand how the music licensing landscape evolved between BMI and ASCAP.
“Half of what they've been paying before.”
Transition to Advertisements
35:28 to 35:54
A brief transition moment before introducing advertisements.
“Oh, a calm and profitable market, you say?”
The Rise of Songs as Revenue-Generating Assets
38:51 to 40:59
Examine how songs transformed into revenue-generating assets over time.
“This next act, we're going to talk about a sort of unintended consequence of the ASCAP and BMI fight.”
Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney's Unique Collaboration
40:59 to 42:01
Learn about the collaboration between Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney and its implications.
“When you think about the 100-year cash flow, that is your Hotel California or whatever.”
McCartney and Jackson: Ownership of Music Rights
42:01 to 45:30
Learn about McCartney's advice to Jackson on song rights and Jackson's subsequent investment in music catalogs.
“And McCartney is saying, you know, it's so important that you own the rights to your songs.”
The Beatles Catalog Acquisition
45:30 to 46:34
Discover how Michael Jackson acquired the Beatles catalog and its impact on McCartney.
“doing something that Paul McCartney says he would never do, like sell Beatles songs to advertisers.”
David Bowie's Financial Innovation
46:34 to 50:31
Explore David Bowie's creation of a new financial instrument to retain music rights.
“The next step in our story comes from David Bowie.”
The Rise and Fall of the Music Asset Class
50:31 to 52:55
Understand the evolution of music as a financial asset and its implications for artists.
“People start to steal it with Napster and LimeWire and all of this, and music industry revenues plunge, including royalties paid to David Bowie songs, and those bonds end up being rated junk at some point.”
Transcript
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2:27Business History Podcast Host:Pushkit. Too quick? No, it was perfect. Pushkit. Stop. You got it.
2:46Michael Jackson:Just because you own something, even with a patent or a copyright, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily make money off of it, profit off of it. because what you need is the power to protect your ownership, protect the thing you own from the people who want to take it. This is a lesson that the songwriters of the United States of America learned about 100 years ago. In the early 1900s, you could get famous writing a hit song. You could own that song and you would still be poor. Songwriters were mostly employees or contractors handing over their work for just a few bucks. But that all changed.
3:24Michael Jackson:when the meek and talented songwriters of this country, guys who tinkled pianos all day long, they banded together and decided to play hardball. The songwriters adopted mafia-like tactics and they held music in America hostage until everyone agreed to pay them what they were owed and more.
3:46Business History Podcast Host:I'm Robert Smith. And I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is Business History, a show about the history of business.
3:52Michael Jackson:The funny thing is that music is designed to be copied. The whole point is you want to play it again and again by different people. You know, you hear the song, you join in singing, you listen once, you can hum it back. But the problem, of course, is if something can be easily copied, it's hard to make sure that the owner gets paid.
4:09Business History Podcast Host:This problem that the songwriters were trying to solve is a big idea problem. It's a problem for anyone who owns intellectual property, whether that's software or a podcast. You make a thing, you technically own it, but it's easy to copy. How do you get paid? How do you control, really control, your intellectual property?
4:31Michael Jackson:There is copyright protection, and there was so in the early 1900s. But songwriters realized that that protection wasn't enough. They needed power. They needed to band together. They created an industry group so powerful that it persists to this day. And the system they built ended up making songwriting so valuable, it created billionaire musicians and brought Wall Street calling. The songwriter's revolution starts, Jacob, in 1913. A composer named Victor Herbert, he's feeling a little peckish, walks into a restaurant in Times Square called Shanley's. Now, Times Square, Shanley's, was one of those places to see and be seen.
5:15Michael Jackson:Very famous clientele, known for their lobsters in 1913. And there's a band playing in the corner. You know, it's just like a raucous, fun atmosphere. And Herbert at this time is a pretty big deal. He gets a good table. He's helped take American theater from sort of vaudeville shows to the story-based musicals that we hear today. He wrote the musical Babes in Toyland in 1903. And so Herbert's eating lobster or whatever, right? And then he hears it. The band starts playing a song from a new Broadway show called Sweethearts.
5:53Business History Podcast Host:We've actually brought in our own piano player today, Pushkin's own Ben Nadeff Heffer.
6:02Michael Jackson:Victor Herbert is sitting at his table, and he knows this song because he wrote it. It's his. And last time he checked, he was not getting a cut of any of that sweet Shanley's lobster money. Thanks, Ben.
6:20Michael Jackson:So, after his meal, Herbert calls up Shanley, the owner, and he informs him that, you know, copyrights do exist, even in 1913. and I own the copyright on the song, so I need to be paid, Herbert says, for the performance of my music. And Shanley disagrees. I don't know, maybe he's in a bad mood, he could have just given a few bucks, but he says, you know what? We haven't charged admission to the restaurant. It's not a performance in a concert hall. It's just playing in the background while people eat. We can play whatever we want in the background.
6:52Business History Podcast Host:It's immaterial. But think about it from Herbert's point of view. This is this moment in the early 20th century when the country is urbanizing, people are moving to cities, and it's getting richer, people have more leisure time, they're going out more. So there are more and more of these places where people are paying to whatever, eat dinner, and in the background, somebody's playing copyrighted music.
7:15Michael Jackson:And it is expected at this point that you would have what are now known as hit songs. There weren't really hit songs before this. This is before the radio and really when phonographs are starting. So the hit songs were the songs you saw on Broadway or that you saw when you went to Shanley's.
7:29Business History Podcast Host:If you're Herbert, like, it seems good that there's a hit song and it's your hit song and everybody's playing it. But now you want to get paid and it's never going to be worth your time to try and figure out if a piano player is playing your song in some random restaurant or bar. Impossible to know. Impossible to know. And there's this useful idea here, which is the collective action problem, right? Like think of all the composers, all of the Herberts writing songs. Like if there were some way they could all get together and act, they could maybe figure out a way to make it worth getting paid for each little performance.
8:08Business History Podcast Host:But how do you do that?
8:09Michael Jackson:Well, I'll tell you how you do that. You start out with a lawsuit. So Victor Herbert sues Shanley and Shanley, he has his own collective action problem because he doesn't want to like have to figure out whose songs he's playing and pay them all. So he goes to the National Association of Hotel and Restaurant Owners. They all get together to back his legal defense. They want a court to say that music in the background doesn't matter. You do not have to pay the composers. And Herbert says, fine, I've got friends too. And he assembles eight heavy hitters from the music publishing industry at a German restaurant downtown called Lucho's.
8:45Michael Jackson:They were not going to go to Shanley's for this. So the songwriters decide to form a cartel. They decide to found, in 1914, the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. ASCAP. It is known as ASCAP, and I'm not going to say that whole thing. We'll just refer to it as ASCAP going forward. And they start recruiting all of the songwriters in town. There is, in fact, a district of New York City where the songwriters all work. It's called Tin Pan Alley, apparently because the sound of out-of-tune pianos sounds like tin pans being banged together. It's, you know, evocative. It's old New York.
9:22Michael Jackson:And Tin Pan Alley is where all the publishers of music exist, right? And the members of Tin Pan Alley are heavy hitters like, prepare yourself, Irving Berlin. Oh, truly a heavy hitter. Yeah. John Philip Sousa. All the marches. Yeah, you need them all. And a budding songwriter named Gene Buck. Don't know him. He's going to come back. He's going to come back into the story later. So the lawsuit goes on. Herbert versus Shanley Company winds its way to the Supreme Court in 1917. Love a Supreme Court case. You're going to love this one because Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes writes the decision. Junior.
10:00Michael Jackson:And he rejects the argument that this music was just incidental to the restaurant, that it's playing in the background. His decision said,
10:09Business History Podcast Host:If the music did not pay, it would be given up. If it pays, it pays out of the public pocketbook. Whether it pays or not, the purpose of employing it is profit. And that is enough. So it basically means, just to be clear, like you could play and sing it at your house if you have your friends over. Yeah. But if you charge your friends 10 bucks to come in and you play the music, then you got to give Ask App a cut.
10:33Michael Jackson:Yeah, it means even if you're just harmlessly using music in a podcast and the podcast has advertising and you're making money off of it, then you have to pay the people who wrote the music. Excellent example. The ruling established the power of ASCAP and they had a sort of two-part plan. The first part was they are going to start enforcing the rules about copyright. So essentially ASCAP sends out music cops. People who go to the big establishments like Shandley's and listen and write down all the music that's played. And then they sue the restaurant owner or the burlesque hall. And of course, they weren't getting everyone.
11:18Michael Jackson:But it's a huge, huge, scary thing to be slapped with a lawsuit. And everyone knows they're going to lose the lawsuit. So now they have the restaurant's attention. And this is when ASCAP offers an easy way out. Like, yeah, you could try to avoid us and we'll just sue you all eventually. Or you could pay us a tiny percentage of the money you make in your restaurant and then you can play anything you want from our collective of musicians. ASCAP in turn distributed the royalties they got from these establishments to its members. They had a very complicated system. But basically, if you were a big, popular songwriter and people knew your name, you would get more money from the royalties.
12:02Michael Jackson:If you had more hits, if you produced more songs, you'd get more money. And the money was technically shared between the songwriters and the publishing houses who were marketing the music.
12:12Business History Podcast Host:I mean, I will say this seems like a nice system, right? Because on the one hand, you want everybody to get paid who should get paid. But on the other, there would be all this friction otherwise. Like, counting every song you play if you're a restaurant is such a ridiculous thing to have to do. Like, you're not in the counting songs business. You're in the restaurant business. And this does seem to solve that.
12:34Michael Jackson:It does. And, you know, it works out to whatever, pennies per song. But it's great for the musicians. And it probably ends up being great for the restaurants and such that they don't have to think about this whole thing. Now, it is worth mentioning that ASCAP did not let just anyone in. They had rules. You had to know how to read music. You had to have the right pedigree, meaning that for the most part, jazz and blues musicians, hillbilly musicians, as they were called at the time. We now know that as country music. They were left out of this whole thing. It was, you know, the Broadway, the composers.
13:07Michael Jackson:It was New York thinking it was better than everybody else. Exactly. By 1921, this whole thing is actually paying off for ASCAP. Whatever they were spending in enforcing their copyrights, they're getting more money back. Everything's working out for its members. until a brand new technology emerges. Your favorite technology, a miracle in the ether. It's radio. November 2nd, 1920. First radio broadcast out of Pittsburgh.
13:38Paul McCartney:This is KDKA of the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company in East Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
13:47Business History Podcast Host:The Westinghouse Corporation, like Westinghouse in our Edison, Tesla, and Westinghouse show.
13:51Michael Jackson:Yeah, they wanted to sell radios, electrons. So they had to put something on the air. But Jacob, I wanted you to hear this part. Very first broadcast ever. Listen to what the announcer says.
14:02Paul McCartney:We'd appreciate it if anyone hearing this broadcast would communicate with us, as we are very anxious to know how far the broadcast is reaching and how it is being received.
14:12Business History Podcast Host:Email us at businesshistory at pushkin.fm.
14:15Michael Jackson:I love it. The very first hour of the very first broadcast, they're like, do we have any listeners? Write us. Or leave a comment below, guys. That was a news broadcast. That's how it started out. But very quickly, radio stations started to play sporting events, radio dramas and music. And importantly, at this time, music on the radio was played live. They would bring in orchestras to play the music, just like in the restaurants. And for ASCAP, they're like, OK, like what is radio except a dance hall of the air? Of course you have to pay the piper or pay the person who wrote the music for the piper, but you know how it goes.
14:53Michael Jackson:There's a series of court cases and radio stations, they make all these arguments. These are going to sound familiar. The first one is the radio says, since there is no audience in the studio, we are not giving a public performance. It's just private.
15:10Business History Podcast Host:It's just private. It's just in the studio.
15:11Michael Jackson:If you're listening in, that's not our concern. It's literally their concern. Go on. The second argument they made, and you'll hear this one today, we make the songwriters famous, so why should we pay them? They should pay us! That was, in fact, the payola scandal of a few decades later. Which was illegal. But the third one was, radio does not broadcast music, Jacob. It emanates electrical energy. A hamburger's not chopped ham, it's chopped steak! Like, obviously, these were stupid arguments. In 1924, the FCC, Federal Communications Commission, rules that radio is, of course, a public performance and copyright is in effect.
15:55Michael Jackson:You have to pay the musicians. ASCAP has won. Not only are they getting a small amount of money from restaurants and dance halls and that sort of thing, they now get a share of the money from the biggest technology of the time, the thing that is going to take over music in America, radio. So far in this podcast, I have been sort of pulling for the little guy, the songwriters. But they are about to go way too far in their quest to control music.
Read the full transcript
16:25Business History Podcast Host:That's what cartels do. This is a cartel story. They get together, there's a collective action problem, they're the little guys. But then they go crazy with their cartel power.
16:35Michael Jackson:They become the big guys. It starts with the election of a new president of the organization. His name is Gene Buck. I mentioned him before. He's one of the composers. He is the composer of, get ready, Ben, Daddy Has a Sweetheart, and Mother is Her Name.
17:07Michael Jackson:Don't let that sweet tune fool you. Gene Buck is a total shark. Gene Buck is about to run ASCAP like the Godfather.
17:17Business History Podcast Host:What, is some radio guy going to wake up with a bloody microphone in his bed?
17:21Michael Jackson:Ah! Ah!
17:23Business History Podcast Host:When our program continues.
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20:34Business History Podcast Host:Okay, we're back. We got Gene Buck, who is apparently not a sweetheart, running ASCAP. What happens next?
20:42Michael Jackson:He's about to do the thing that cartels always do, which is to squeeze their customers just a bit too hard until they squeal. Buck started out actually as a cover illustrator in Tin Pan Alley. You know, the way you sold sheet music was you had to have a picture on the cover. People were like, oh, this looks great. I'm going to buy this for my kid to learn how to play the piano. And then his eyesight started to fail him. And he became someone who wrote lyrics. Okay, that's fine. And he became very successful at it. He was known as Mr. Broadway. So successful that he had a mansion out on Long Island next to F.
21:19Michael Jackson:Scott Fitzgerald. Was he Gatsby? Gatsby-esque? It is rumored that his parties might have inspired the Great Gatsby, although now that I think of it, everyone on Long Island probably says that about themselves, right? I mean, if they were rich and full of despair and had great parties, sure. So he has an orchard out there, a vineyard, apparently doesn't drink. Time magazine calls him the Generalissimo of the clangorous army of tin pan alley men. That is the timiest sentence that ever timed.
21:48Business History Podcast Host:Why don't you give us the New Yorker-iest sentence, ever New Yorker? So the New Yorker said of him, they said, the sentimental, soft-spoken lyric writer is the most powerful private citizen on earth. He can stop the broadcasting of popular music. If he says stop, jazz must vanish from the air.
22:08Michael Jackson:It's interesting they would mention jazz because Gene Buck did not seem like a big fan of Black music or Black performers. He didn't let Black musicians, mostly or not many of them, into ASCAP. He's a driving force behind ASCAP's exclusion of blues and R &B, as well as hillbilly musicians. So at this point, it is all about the radio. Whatever else ASCAP was doing, sheet music sales, phonographs, player pianos, like the radio is making the most money. And so Gene Buck says, we go where the money is. We are going to squeeze them. In 1935, they make a deal with radio stations. Radio has to pay a fixed fee to ASCAP of 5 % of their advertising revenue.
22:55Michael Jackson:5 % a year. It's a good time to be writing songs, I guess. It's a great time to be writing songs. It works out to millions of dollars for ASCAP. And at this point in 1939, ASCAP does control about 90 % of music copyrights. They're in bed with Hollywood. Their members are writing songs for Broadway. way. They are running popular culture. Now, radio stations obviously are a little upset with this situation, you know, having to give away 5 % of their advertising revenues. They go to the federal government. The federal government, it's a complicated story, but they decide that for the time being, they are not going to challenge this cartel.
23:33Michael Jackson:So instead, the radio stations go to the state legislatures, state by state in the mid to late 1930s. They go and try to convince them to pass laws against this mafia-like behavior, and they succeed in a few states, Nebraska, Louisiana, Tennessee, and importantly for this story, Montana. They all pass laws that forbid the collection of performance fees by joint action.
24:01Business History Podcast Host:Collection of... So it's like a racket. Like, I'd hate to see what would happen to your radio station if you did not pay me 5%.
24:10Michael Jackson:They say it is extortion because it's not a free market negotiation of what the rights are. Montana should be able, Montana radio stations should be able to make their own deals, which they cannot under this system.
24:23Business History Podcast Host:They're trying to undo the cartel, trying to sort of unsolve the collective action problem. And it's going to get hot, this fight.
24:30Michael Jackson:Montana radio station gets a justice of the peace to issue a warrant for Gene Buck, the president of ASCAP, on extortion charges. Yes. This man cannot go to Montana because there is a warrant out for his arrest. And in fact, that warrant starts to be circulated to other states. Gene Buck is visiting Phoenix, Arizona, nowhere near Montana, and he gets arrested on extortion. The sheriff sets the bail at$10 ,000. Not trivial? No. Buck is in Phoenix. It's a holiday weekend. doesn't know where he's going to get the money, calls up a friend. And the friend is like, OK, I will send a certified check from Chase National Bank to the sheriff.
25:16And the sheriff apparently replied, I'm one of those old fashioned fellas.
25:21Michael Jackson:And I don't know what a certified check is. And I have never heard of this Chase National Bank.
25:28Business History Podcast Host:I don't believe that sheriff one bit. I bet he's running for office. I bet he's got$300 ,000 in an account in the Chase National Bank.
25:36Michael Jackson:And arresting a New York songwriter is... Good for getting votes. Good for getting votes. Eventually, Buck gets out. The charges are dropped. Montana's like, this is ridiculous. But this shows you how serious this fight was getting. So the government's sniffing around. Broadcasters are pushing back. These should be a sort of warning to ASCAP to be like, hey, be a little bit of a benevolent monopoly here. You know, give your customers a break. Yeah, take the money. Just get rich enough. Don't push it too far. Gene Buck announces that they're going to raise rates. They are going to double them, in fact, from 5 % to 10 % of the broadcaster's advertising revenue.
26:19Michael Jackson:And this is going to go into effect when the contract expires at the end of 1940. December 31st, 1940, if you don't pay us, you will have no music on your air in 1941.
26:33Business History Podcast Host:So what happens?
26:34Michael Jackson:The broadcasters freak. They're just like, oh, we got to negotiate. We got to negotiate. They set up this big meeting between the heads of all the big radio networks and Gene Buck. They have a room at the Ritz Tower. They're going to hash this out. The radio executives arrive. Buck is late. It's an hour, two hours. He doesn't show. They call ASCAP. They're like, where's Gene Buck? Like, we're supposed to negotiate. They're like, oh, Gene Buck's on the West Coast. In fact, he's on a train en route to the Bohemian Grove.
27:06Business History Podcast Host:I know the Bohemian Grove is like where famous rich people go camping with each other or something, right? Like whatever, Henry Kissinger and Bill Clinton. It's where powerful and rich people go to meet in secret. And if you think of the arc so far, you know, we started with a composer walking into a restaurant and having no power over the fact that his music was being played and he wasn't being paid. And now you have this guy going to hobnob with the most powerful elites instead of meeting with the people who want to negotiate with him, presumably in good faith.
27:40Michael Jackson:The broadcasters call a war meeting. Yes. Love a war meeting. and they say, how do you fight a cartel? And the answer is, we form a rival cartel. They decide they are going to build Broadcast Music Incorporated, BMI. There's a standing ovation. And the idea behind BMI is there's a lot of music that ASCAP has not captured. Country, blues, R &B, gospel, Latin artists. And so what if we sign those artists and we go to radio stations and say, you don't have to deal with ASCAP. You can deal with us.
28:21Business History Podcast Host:BMI. It's amazing when you say that, right? This is what 1939, so they don't know what's coming. But when you say country music and R &B and blues, they're making the rock and roll cartel.
28:35Michael Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. And Latin artists, I'm just going to say Irving Berlin did not play the Super Bowl. BMI starts its operations in February of 1940. They have 10 months, 10 months to sign up radio stations.
28:48Business History Podcast Host:Oh, right. Because at the end of the year, that's when the ASCAP ultimatum hits. So if they don't do it in time, the radio stations won't have music after New Year's.
28:59Michael Jackson:BMI recruits a guy named Carl Haviland as their station relations manager. It's going to be his job to sell stations on this plan. There is this really charming story about him that illustrates what it is he does. In 1935, he was working for a radio station. He'd been in touch with Amelia Earhart, the famous flyer. She was about to attempt to be the first person to fly solo from Hawaii to the U.S. mainland, 18 hours. And she was worried about falling asleep in the cockpit. So Haverlin and the others at the radio station have this sort of publicity stunt they've decided to do. They are going to beam music to her plane, specifically for her, her playlist, and she's going to like call in on the radio to see if she's okay.
29:47Michael Jackson:Great, great idea. But at 3.05 a.m., they don't hear from Amelia Earhart. Again, at 3.35, they don't hear from her. They're worried she's gone down. And at 4 o 'clock in the morning, Amelia Earhart comes through, sounding a little bleary. So Haviland asks her on the radio, what is your favorite song? And she says, the Red River Valley, country music. And Haviland says to the band, hit it.
30:33And then the song keeps Amelia Earhart awake.
30:38Michael Jackson:She continues to fly and she lands in Oakland. It was a hoedown of the air. Thanks, Ben. And this is a good glimpse of something that Haverland seemed to understand that Gene Buck did not. A lot of Americans didn't actually like the highfalutin Broadway music. Maybe they pretended they did. It was certainly on the radio. But a lot of people wanted to hear a lot of other things. Local songwriters, jazz and blues. Like, this is what people were listening to in their bars and honky-tonks outside of New York, and they wanted to hear it on the radio. And I should say here that this story and most of our information about Carl Havilland and BMI comes from a few oral histories courtesy of the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum.
31:24Business History Podcast Host:I will say our producer, Gabriel Hunter Chang, who did most of the research for this show, was sitting next to me in the office. And there was this moment a few weeks ago when he was like, yes. And I was like, what? And he was like, we get the oral histories. I was like, that is a great producer.
31:39Michael Jackson:So the charming Carl Haverland is the man who really gets BMI off the ground. He's traveling around the country talking to station managers, getting them to sign licenses with BMI, very similar to the ASCAP licenses where you can play all of our roster of artists if you give us a small amount of your revenues. His goal is to get 750 stations. And BMI is starting to get some hits. They work out a hit arrangement of Genie with the Light Brown Hair. They start bringing in the country music musicians, the Carter family, very famous, Jimmy Rogers. One of the fathers of country music, I believe. A yodeler.
32:15Michael Jackson:A yodeler. That's what people wanted to hear. Not yodeling on Broadway. The end of the contract with ASCAP is looming. December 31st, 1940. Gene Buck planning to pull American music off the air. And as the clock hit midnight, people around the nation were wondering what is going to happen. They tuned in and they heard.
32:40Business History Podcast Host:Wait, isn't Old Line Sign in the public domain?
32:43Michael Jackson:Yes, anyone can play it as long as it's not an ASCAP arrangement. But everyone's waiting to see what happens after Ben finishes playing this song. Will there be any music at all on the radio? Will they just turn the whole system off? Thanks, Ben.
33:00After the song finishes, the music continues into the night.
33:05Michael Jackson:Listeners thought that maybe ASCAP had finally made a deal. Maybe the radio stations gave in. But no. It was BMI music. They had slotted in BMI music, and nobody really noticed. Or even really cared. Music is music. They partied into the night. except for maybe one man, Gene Buck.
33:26Business History Podcast Host:Yeah, if you form a cartel, you better make sure that there's not a substitute for what you're selling. He thought there would be people in the streets being like, where's my Gushwin?
33:35Michael Jackson:Where's my Irving Berlin? And they were just yodeling all night long. They were yodeling all night long. Ten months later, ASCAP caves. They agree to much more modest terms than the 10 % they were asking for. In fact, they didn't even get the 5 % of advertising revenues, which they had before, they negotiated now 2.75 % of radio station revenues had to be paid. Shout out competition. I know, right? We love competition. I know. Half of what they've been paying before. Buck is eventually removed as the president of ASCAP. Carl Havilland becomes the president of BMI.
34:15Business History Podcast Host:I guess the songwriters don't necessarily love competition, although the formerly excluded songwriters love competition, right? The only people who don't love it are the clubby, tin pan alley New York songwriters who pushed it too far. I feel like I'm saying the Jacob Goldstein line, but the pie can get bigger.
34:31Michael Jackson:More music, more songwriters, more revenues, more advertising, more money for everyone.
34:37Business History Podcast Host:Yes, 2.75, if you can grow the pie, 10x is more than 10 % at the old smaller pie. Love that.
34:44Michael Jackson:I've learned something from you. The broadcasters and the American public end up with music from both ASCAP and BMI. There is a truce in the war. And they're still a little competitive, which is great. BMI signs Elvis Presley. ASCAP scoffs at the rock and roll. That's not going to happen. The Gershwins are coming back. Then ASCAP signs Bob Dylan. Hey! Acoustic Bob Dylan, because that's more classy. That's more ASCAP. And then when Dylan goes electric, ASCAP has to kind of go electric, too. And it opens the door for them to represent rock and roll. See, there's progress. There's progress. But the big picture is that the two organizations have created a calm and very profitable market for songwriting.
35:28Michael Jackson:Oh, a calm and profitable market, you say? And who loves a calm and profitable market? Wall Street. Wall Street takes a look at this and says, we want some of this action. After the break.
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38:51Michael Jackson:This next act, we're going to talk about a sort of unintended consequence of the ASCAP and BMI fight. At this point, because of ASCAP and BMI, songs are not just ditties that you sing along to. They are revenue-generating machines. They have a life of their own.
39:12Business History Podcast Host:And a thing we know, right, so we're getting into the, like, 60s, 70s, this is a time when intellectual property more generally is growing as a thing. The owners of intellectual property, not just songwriters, but people like, say, the Walt Disney Company, are pushing for stricter intellectual property protection and longer, right? One of the really striking things you see in the 20th century is copyright keeps getting longer and longer and longer.
39:38Michael Jackson:Yeah, and ASCAP and BMI helped push for copyright protection to be extended to the songwriter's lifetime plus 50 years. Eventually, it would be 70 years. 70 years plus their lifetime. So a song can live for more than 100 years. And at this point— A song can live forever. The revenues can live for more than 100 years. Right. And at this time, the number of places that you could get a little slice of revenue from was growing because you not only had radio, you had TV and movies, you had records and then eight tracks and cassettes and eventually CDs. And then you had the rise of oldies radio stations, the hits of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today, where a song like Hotel California is played every single day until the end of time.
40:32Michael Jackson:That's a lot of pennies. That's a lot of pennies. To put it in financial terms, a song became an asset. It's protected and monetized by ASCAP and BMI, along with the music labels and the publishers. And it generates a predictable cash flow, as we said, maybe for more than 100 years. A great song is essentially like a long-term bond.
40:57Business History Podcast Host:Yeah. Like, especially a hit, right? When you think about the 100-year cash flow, that is your Hotel California or whatever. It's what you know people are going to play every day until the end of time. You can check out any time you like, but the royalties will never leave.
41:13Michael Jackson:People start to figure out that these assets, we're going to call them assets now, not songs, you can buy and sell other people's rights. You can assemble them into a giant portfolio. And one of the first to do this in a notable way was a well-known financial genius, the king of pop, Michael Jackson. Here's how the story goes. One night in 1981, Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, who was a member of the Beatles, or was, hanging out at McCartney's estate outside of London. They're getting to know each other. Michael's interested in writing some songs with Paul McCartney. And in fact, they are going to collaborate on a few songs, including Say, Say, Say.
41:55Michael Jackson:What you want, but don't leave me in no direction. In no direction, something like that. And McCartney is talking to Michael Jackson about the music business. And McCartney is saying, you know, it's so important that you own the rights to your songs. Because in fact, he and John Lennon had lost some of the rights to their songs back in the early days. They were now owned by someone else. And McCartney says, you know, someday I would love to, like, re-own my music, so don't make the mistake I made. And McCartney's actually showing off a little bit, and he's showing Michael Jackson that he's bought some other songs.
42:32Michael Jackson:So McCartney had bought the Buddy Holly catalog and some Broadway tunes. and Michael Jackson jokes, well, you know, someday I should buy all of your music, Paul. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Well, at least McCartney thinks it's a joke, but it's no joke. Michael Jackson happens to be sitting on$9 million. Used to be a lot. Used to be a lot. And he'd earned that in 1980. And he's thinking about where to park it. And McCartney has this suggestion. So Michael Jackson starts buying songs, music rights for songs like Run Around Sue and The Wanderer, classic songs from the 1950s. He buys the whole Sly and the Family Stone catalog for half a million dollars.
43:18Michael Jackson:I know I would buy the music for half a million dollars. And it's a good deal because Michael Jackson ends up making that money back when someone covers a Sly and Family Stone hit. This is all working. And then Michael Jackson goes for the big score, the thing you joked about. an Australian media tycoon named Holmes Accord puts the Beatles catalog up for sale in 1984. So Jackson makes his move. He makes an offer for the Beatles catalog of$40 million. Remember, Sly and the Family Stone was half a million. $40 million is huge. It's a very high valuation. I mean, it is the Beatles. But we didn't know how much songs were worth back in this day.
44:01Michael Jackson:People in the industry think he's losing his mind. But there is, in fact, a bidding war. Richard Branson of Virgin Records throws his hat in the ring. And in August of 1985, Jackson wins at$47.5 million. Plus, he has to appear at a telethon fundraiser in Perth, Australia. Incredible. I love that that got thrown in there. And at this point, this is the most expensive publishing purchase ever by an individual. And Michael Jackson is really interesting. He agreed to exclude one song, one Beatles song from the purchase. The man who was selling it wanted to gift his daughter one Beatles song, which is pretty adorable.
44:50Michael Jackson:He's kind of hoping that she'll pick Yesterday, which probably is worth the most money. his daughter chooses Penny Lane and owns the rights to it to this day.
45:00Business History Podcast Host:I'm sure she's doing fine.
45:03Michael Jackson:Jackson also doing fine. Thrilled to have the Beatles collection. Paul McCartney, not so happy. He felt like he had made it clear that he wanted the Beatles catalog. And Jackson has not only bought it, but if you think about it, has greatly increased what it would cost for McCartney to buy those songs back. And pretty quickly, Michael Jackson starts, you know, trying to make money off of his investment of the Beatles songs, doing something that Paul McCartney says he would never do, like sell Beatles songs to advertisers.
45:42Business History Podcast Host:I remember, actually, was this the 80s? I remember in the 80s, there was this famous Nike ad where they played Revolution, the Beatles song Revolution. and I, being the target for that ad, loved it.
45:55Michael Jackson:Yeah, a lot of hippies didn't love it. And Paul McCartney didn't love it. Like, this was not something they wanted to do with their music. And apparently Jackson said, oh, Paul, it's just business. It ended up being a great business for Michael Jackson. He doubled his money when he sold the rights later to Sony. And the lesson of all of this for the world was these songs are way more valuable than we thought as assets. Now, Michael Jackson was a simple buy, hold, and sell investor. He saw an underpriced asset, bought it, sold it for double. But once songs are assets, you can do all sorts of financial engineering to them.
46:34The next step in our story comes from David Bowie.
46:47Michael Jackson:The round control to Major Tone
46:57All right, it's Bowie.
46:59Business History Podcast Host:I get it. Thank you.
47:01Michael Jackson:In the 1990s, David Bowie owned 50 % of the rights to his catalog, which, you know, for a rock and roll star who was perhaps using drugs, like that's a high percentage. Like he had kept 50%. The problem was the other 50 % was owned by his manager, whom he despised, hated his manager. And you can imagine if you're David Bowie driving along in California and a song comes on the radio and it's your song, you should feel great. But in fact, he felt miserable that half of the royalties from that song was going to a man that he hated. So he wants to buy back all of his rights. And his financial advisors come up with a scheme that will allow him to do it by inventing a new financial instrument, or at least a new way to use an older financial instrument.
47:52Michael Jackson:In 1997, Bowie packages 287 of his songs and copyrights, from Life on Mars to Ashes to Ashes, and he puts them into a special purpose vehicle, a securitization pool.
48:08Business History Podcast Host:A securitization pool? You're ringing the 2008 financial crisis bell, right? Like anybody who has read about the financial crisis or listened to a plan of money talking about the financial crisis might remember the securitization pool is when you take some set of assets, typically that have some stream of income attached to them. Like a mortgage? Yeah. So if you take 100 mortgages, you put them into one special purpose vehicle, you put them into one bundle, and then you sell off slices of that bundle. Those are the securities. Yeah. Sell off slices of the revenue that comes from the bundle. Yes.
48:45Business History Podcast Host:So you buy a slice of a mortgage-backed security, and every month you get some money as people pay their mortgage. Or I guess in the case of Bowie, every month or every quarter or whatever, you get a slice of his royalties? Royalties? Yes.
49:00Michael Jackson:So this is the genius of the plan. In the old days, David Bowie, if he needed money, would just sell the rights to his songs, and then he wouldn't own them anymore. But by putting them in this pool, he still owned his songs. He was just promising the revenue to whoever would invest in this vehicle. So he offers something that is, cold colloquially, a Bowie bond. It pays 7.9 % interest, and it gets bought mostly by an insurance company. You know, the insurance company is thinking, well, we need to invest our money somewhere.
49:35Business History Podcast Host:Well, and insurance companies have long-term liabilities. They know they're going to have to pay out for decades. And as you were saying before, songs are now long-term assets, and they want to match their assets and their liabilities.
49:48Michael Jackson:So Bowie ends up getting$55 million from this deal, and he uses the money to buy the other half of his music rights from the guy he hates.
49:57Business History Podcast Host:I hate you so much, I'm going to give you$55 million.
50:01Michael Jackson:But he's a musician, and now he owns his rights. This is a happy ending to the story, and it's very clever. Now, this did not work out as well for the investors, because just as David Bowie does this, is really the peak of the music industry. Late 90s. As we know it, right? CDs are making a ton of money. Everyone's like, this money will continue forever, and that's how we're going to value the Bowie bonds. And then music becomes essentially free on the internet. People start to steal it with Napster and LimeWire and all of this, and music industry revenues plunge, including royalties paid to David Bowie songs, and those bonds end up being rated junk at some point.
50:43Michael Jackson:But, but, this drew the attention of the financial world. And if you have a ton of money, it just becomes another thing you're looking to invest in.
50:55Business History Podcast Host:It's an asset class. Yeah. It's an asset class. I mean, I got interested a few years ago in this company called Hypnosis, with a G somewhere in there. I'll try to spell it. Founded by this guy, Merck Mercuriatis, who was this music business guy who started a company. and it actually became publicly traded for a while. And all they did was buy up the rights to songs. Tens of thousands of songs. Yeah, billions. They spent, I think, more than$2 billion. I wound up getting bought by Blackstone in the end. Classic finance story.
51:30Michael Jackson:Last year, investors including Blackstone, Carlisle, and Michigan's State Pension Fund, ooh, shout out to pension funds, they've raised at least$4.4 billion using songs by Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, and John Lennon and Paul McCartney, packaged into securities. And you'll notice, Jacob, you recognize the names of those musicians. A side effect of the financialization of music is that it makes superstars even more rich.
51:58Business History Podcast Host:That's always heartwarming to hear.
52:00Michael Jackson:Yeah, I mean, if you're a financial asset, it also makes sense for these companies to spend more money promoting you, meaning that you're worth more and the securities are worth more and you'll make even more money. Basically, a lot of musicians are where they were a hundred years ago before ASCAP. They're making a little bit from selling the music that they own, but in order to make real money, they got to start to perform in the burlesque halls, you know, the beer halls, the restaurants, Shanley's of Times Square, and make their money from something that hasn't been financialized yet, t-shirt sales.
52:34Business History Podcast Host:Merch. Merch. Today's live music was provided by Ben Nadeff Heffery. The show was produced, reported, and written by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was engineered by Sarah Bouguer. Our showrunner and editor is Ryan Dilley. I'm Jacob Goldstein. I'm on X at Jacob Goldstein.
52:51Michael Jackson:Robert Smith at Radio Smith, wherever you do that kind of thing.
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From the publisher
Once if you wrote a hit song there was no guarantee it would make you rich. So songwriters formed a cartel - the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. ASCAP started suing concert halls, cafes and nightclubs to claim back royalties. Seemed fair... except ASCAP started a war when it demanded radio stations turn over 10% of their revenues.
ASCAP's monopoly on music rights was broken, but they'd made songs into valuable financial assets. This set the scene for an epic copyright beef between Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson, and for David Bowie to turn his pop hits into a complex special purpose vehicle... a securitization pool!
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