CULTURE | From Misunderstandings to Meaningful Interactions. w/ Jeremie Kubicek

0:00And now, Taking Care of Business, your hosts, Craig Moen and Shai Gilad. Welcome to Business Owners Radio, episode 246. Our guest today is Jeremy Kubitschek, executive chairman and co-author of Giant Worldwide and co-author of the new book, The Communication Code. Unlock every relationship, one conversation at a time. Jeremy is a global speaker, serial entrepreneur, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of making your leadership come alive and the Peace Index. Good morning, Jeremy. Welcome to Business Owners Radio. So good to be with you guys. Thank you. It's a bright sunny morning and we're all going to have a good time this morning.

0:48We appreciate you being here. And boy, your new book, The Communication Code, draws up all kinds of questions this morning for us. So we appreciate your efforts there. And curious, what up to dedicating the volume of time to actually write this book? Yeah, it was actually pain. I'm trying to solve pain issues, communication and relationship issues for other people because I've had them. I don't know if anyone else has people problems, but I've had them in the past and maybe today. But I and my business partner, we got into this massive fight and we couldn't figure out what it was. And then we solved it and we built the communication code in the midst of a fight.

1:31And this was eight, nine years ago. And we've used it ever since. And we've had so much demand for it that we just simply put it in a book. We wrote it down for people. And it's greatly appreciated. Curious, how would you describe the state of communications in general and particularly in a business setting? Yeah, so most people, we say communication is expectation. it's package expectation every expectation has a code word attached to it but most people don't know what the code word is so what happens then is they communicate they're expecting something from someone else they don't receive what they want they shut down they pull back they put up walls and then starts in especially in business starts the great workaround well you know joe You know, he always dot, dot, dot.

2:20He never listens. He always tells me. And then there's silos and turf wars and frustrations all because of miscommunication, which primarily means that they didn't understand what the expectations were in the very beginning. Have you seen this change at all in the last 10 years? Is the environment of communications changing? Well, I think the way we communicate is changing. I think at the core, no, and that there's always been expectations attached to it. In our case, the communication codes, there's five words. There's five things that people are wanting. Not all five, but in essence, the five are celebration, they want care, they want clarification, they want collaboration or critique.

3:04So these are the code words that people have. But the secret and what we've tried to explain in the book is what's it been like to be on the other side of you in the past years? Meaning that when you're communicating with someone or they're communicating with you, if they come to you and they want care from you, are they receiving critique? And when they do receive critique, you know, it's like blowing their candle out. and they were hopeful for something or they wanted to celebrate and then you show up with collaboration and critique it instead. So what we found is that communication is always had expectation attached to it, but the nuances of how we communicate via text message or DMs or those functional things that are changing because of technology, they just exacerbate miscommunication.

3:57That brings up a whole area of what is a healthy communication. You mentioned a number of factors and the critique side, something new to me from the standpoint of ending a conversation and having an expectation met. In a healthy communication, there's this expectation. How do you qualify that expectation between the two parties? So, you think about expectations. First, it starts with, are you for me? Are you against me? Or are you for yourself? And in any relationship, if you're in a true relationship, they're not going to be against you. But a lot of relationships, the feeling is like, I think you're more for yourself than you are for me.

4:38Are you for me? If I know you're for me, I'm going to listen differently. If I think that you're against me, I'm going to already have walls put up, this wall of self-preservation. And I'm not going to let you in until I know that you're for me. And the way that I know is the way you communicate with me. So communication is actually the conduit to relationship. How we have communication, it directly relates to how our relationship is going to be. And so that's why communication is so important. And oftentimes, it's almost like communication is I tell you what I think. That's just transmission.

5:17Transmission is just one half of communication. It's not the full communication. I need to transmit something and make sure you heard me. And so you'll receive it well. When you receive it and transmit back that I received it, that's full communication. You know, it's interesting, Jeremy. I know that you've done a lot of work around leadership and communications. And I can't help thinking about what you're saying here as it relates to just positional authority, right? And sort of the habits of maybe communication styles that have been modeled that are not very good, that really don't foster attention to thinking about how the other party needs to receive the information.

5:58And, you know, business owners succumb to this all the time because so many of us are accidental business owners. You know, maybe we got out of corporate world because we were frustrated with communications, among other things. But then often we can fall into these same traps. So how do you first approach the mindset around changing how you're thinking about this as a leader? Yeah, in the book, it's really interesting because the first two chapters pretty much are what's it been like to be on the other side of you? And in chapter two, we created a negative power test where you can actually take a power test of what's the power play that's been happening between you and someone else.

6:38So, for instance, let's say someone that you're friends with, they're older than you. Well, that's a power play. Let's say they're a CEO title and you're not. Maybe their personality, their type A and you're not. So, all of these kind of power plays that they may be unaware of. So they enter in the communication in the relationship with a negative frustration from the other person. They're clueless because they don't know what it's like to be on the other side of themselves. So if you know, oh, my goodness. Yeah, my son, I'm dominating him. So then, you know, what does support look like? How can I bring more support to him?

7:18And how do I bring more challenge? Or you have a team member and you know there's a power play there. Well, what kind of support do they need from me? And how can I let them know that I'm for them before I bring all of this challenge onto them? Because if you bring challenge with no support, you'll dominate and you'll create a culture of fear and manipulation that will lead to a turnover factory. If, on the other hand, you bring too much support with not enough challenge, then you can create entitlement and enabling. So we're after high support and high challenge, which is this culture of empowerment.

7:53It's liberation. ultimately. So that's what we're ultimately wanting. We're wanting people to review what it's been like to be on the other side of them. So then they can know, oh my goodness, I need to go apologize. And then I need to reset my communication style to this person before they believe that I'm actually changing or before they'll actually listen to me. First of all, that sounds like a really useful tool and construct. And I'm sure before we let you go today. We're going to point everybody at how they can learn exactly about that and where they can get the book. It's interesting to think about how these constructs may exist at all these different layers within an organization.

8:34I know you lead a very large company. I mean, how has this changed the way you think about training and coaching conversations with your team and the layers underneath them? So, we use language. So, we figured out that common language is the key to healthy culture. We also use visual tools at Giant because we've learned that people don't read very much so that they need a visual tool that's a cue to that concept. So if you take language with a visual tool, you can create objective language, not subjective language. So here's what I mean. Let's say we were on the same team and you come to me with a question or a comment.

9:11I go, all right, before we do, what do you want? Do you want me to collaborate? you want me to clarify what is it you want for me what i'm doing is i'm using the code words to decipher what you want so that i'm aligned to make sure i don't miscommunicate and if you said no no actually i don't want any collaboration i just want to celebrate you guys i just had this big win and i just need to celebrate awesome let's do it yeah and we just celebrate like we just talk about it we're not talking about a parade we're just celebrating for a minute and high-fiving. Good job, man. That was awesome. Good work.

9:45We move on. Or you might say, yeah, clarify, but then I want your collaboration. You're really good at this, Jeremy. So then I go, great, were you saying this? And then I collaborate to help you. And then by doing that, I'm using common language. And that's what we found. So my wife and I'll take it even to home. My wife, her and I, we have figured out, we have custom communication code words. She says, I want care from you first and foremost, and then collaboration, but I don't want collaboration before care. And care, I need you to listen to me fully. Even if you don't care about my best friend's family dynamics, I just want to know that you're for me by listening.

10:28Well, I want very different things. I want her to celebrate with me. And then I want her to clarify to make sure she knows what I'm saying. So we've communicated the custom communication code words, the specifically we want. And what that does is that makes sure that we're not triggering any negativity or any frustrations. You know, I love the idea that you can name these things, right? So just in terms of increasing trust, because I think so much miscommunication comes from a trust deficit that exists when one of us shows up in this way, right? So, if you don't know that you constantly critique others because it's just so ingrained in how you show up or it's so ingrained in your positional authority that you've sort of lost track of it, they're already dreading talking to you probably a lot of the time and you don't even know it.

11:21That's right. And you've lost influence. So, you're like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's what's happening. So, the other person has a wall up and you're wondering why they weren't very warm, They're not friendly or what's up with them. They must have had a bad day. It's like, actually, they're just fed up with you. They're so tired of you and your antics because you do the same thing expecting different results. Like that's insanity, right? So understanding that the whole goal is know yourself to lead yourself. Self-awareness 101. And if you know and understand your communication patterns, you can change your patterns simply by using the code words to ask.

12:03once you figure out these code words and now i don't even have to use the phrases i figure it out i've gotten so good at it if i'm in a meeting with you and i start kind of gleaning what is it you want i can tell pretty quickly when you want celebration or when you want care or when you want collaboration or you know and sometimes i have to ask but the whole idea now is the platinum rule i'm doing unto others as they would want done unto them let's talk about that platinum rule I've never heard of that before. Well, the golden rule, everyone knows the golden rule, do unto others as you'd want done to you.

12:37The problem is it gets misinterpreted. So a lot of men in particular are like, well, I don't need a hug. Why do you need a hug? Or I didn't get training. Why do you need training? And it's just misapplied. The golden rule is really do unto others as they would want done. So doing unto others then it's like, well, what does my wife want right now? What does she need? and what is my employee that I'm working with? What do they need right now? And I know what some of you are thinking because I'm an owner too. You're like, yeah, but isn't that coddling? And you're like, no, it's called adaptability.

13:13It's called insights, team dynamics. And if you understand that your tendency is to always critique, what if you could actually clarify first? Wouldn't that go a long way? And all of a sudden they become more open to things. So it's just being smart is really what it is. And using code words, it just makes it simpler. A very complicated thing, it makes it simpler so that, guess what, your daughter might talk to you again. Or your co-workers might communicate differently. Or your wife might have a better conversation. And you unlock a relationship that maybe has been locked up for a long time. You know, what I'm hearing here is that, you know, doing unto others as they'd like to have done to them.

13:57And maybe one of the places we go wrong is we assume we know how they'd like to. That's right. Because we just assume they're a reflection of us. So, of course, they want to be treated like we want to be treated, right? Right. That's it. Which is really funny, though. I got to tell you, every time when we do this, we'll do little sessions with people. And we have coaches around the world that take our content and use it inside companies and certify people and such. And we'll do this exercise and we'll say, how many of you raise your hand if your tendency is to critique first? And with men, it's a large amount.

14:31It's a large percentage. But then we turn it around and said, now, how many of you would want other people to critique you first? And it's nobody. So nobody wants to receive critique. Very, very few, let's just say. So most people aren't aware. And then you know what they'll say? They'll go, well, that's just the way I grew up. So it was your nurtured upbringing. Okay, well, and well, don't you want me to solve the problem? Well, yeah, but in the framework of relationship, I need to know that you're for me. Because critique is different than critical. Critical is like, you're against me. You're negative towards me.

15:10You're not for me. Critique can be positive. But if all I experience is critique, I can change my narrative of you and I can only feel it as critical. And that's what we want to keep from. We want people to know that you're for them, not against them. All of this seems really effective when you are in an organization and you're in the position of power like you would be, or like many of us would be, where we can set policy and change policy and affect change. And we can introduce this language and a framework. And I mean, I'm already, my head is buzzing with different examples where comms have gone wrong and where they could be better, how helpful this could be.

15:50I'm curious about how you're able to apply this externally when maybe there's an imbalance of power and you're in a negotiation. Because, you know, you mentioned earlier just thinking about, you know, a leader can benefit from this because this will increase your ability to influence and persuade. What about when you're not in a position of power, you're dealing with someone who doesn't know this language and you're trying to suss out what is needed in this scenario? have you found ways to implement it? Yeah, very much so. Everything that we do is basically around relational intelligence. So relational intelligence is a combination of personality, understanding your personality, your tendencies, understanding your emotional intelligence, understanding hard skills.

16:36So you're relationally intelligent with others, that you can be self-aware and change your behavior, know the team dynamics and perform. Well, every person can do that. Every employee can do that. So every team is its own subculture. So maybe the CEO of the entire company isn't adopting these tools, but you and your team can. And what happens then is you get really good at relational intelligence. You get to move up way quicker because the capital, the relational capital is way more valuable than even intellectual capital. Intellectual capital with certifications and degrees, yeah, this lasts so long.

17:18And then people go, yeah, great, but nobody likes you, right? Yeah, you've got the MBA, you've got a doctorate in this or that, or you're certified in X, Y, and Z, but no one wants to be around you. So practicing this, getting really good at it actually makes you a really, really good communicator, really more relational intelligent, and then you get more opportunities than other people get. Jeremy, this brings up a thought as far as is there a difference between business related conversations and personal conversations? Or I imagine there's tremendous overlap, but is there any differences we should be able to?

17:54Yes, I'd say there are. And yet at the same time, half the population are thinkers and half are feelers. So when you think of that dynamic, thinkers are very, very comfortable with critique. They're comfortable with collaboration. Just say it. Well, the problem is it's mixed with feelers. So your teams have a mix of thinkers and feelers. So feelers like to take things and make them personal. So they'll take an idea and put it right over their heart. And when you shoot at that, there's blood because they made it personal. Whereas a thinker kept it outside of their body and they're just like, hey, critique this, make this better.

18:31And then they come back and what do you think now? So that's the dynamic. It's like personal relationships have more gravity to them. They have more weight to them because it's family or it's friendship or what have you. But at work, feelers can tend to make things personal and thinkers can be oblivious to that typically. And I'm generalizing here, but that's in essence what I see. And so you have to be cognitive of the fact that your words will affect the way you influence. And if you shut people down, you turn off their engagement and you make them compliant. And most organizations are full of compliant leaders because their bosses are clueless.

19:12The team leaders are clueless of how to communicate or build relationships, even inside the business world. So again, generalization, we work in 115 countries. I've worked with so many different dynamics. You're like, oh my gosh, you guys, why can't you see these obvious clues? So while there are differences between business and personal, I would say that the feeling component inside business makes it personal. It's really interesting to listen and just think about situations where we've all been in, where all the momentum of a business goals and directions and focus for the business externally are just totally derailed internally because of communication skills and capabilities and without even knowing it many times.

20:02So this is helpful information. As business owners, how can we kind of audit our communication skills amongst our organization and ourselves? It's really important. We have two components that we do at Giant. One's called the five voices. And what we do is we help people understand their wiring and personality and tendencies. And it's actually the five voices has been around. A lot of people know it already. A lot of people use it. It's a way more effective way to scale personality than the traditional personal Myers-Briggs or DISC or other types of things because it's stickier, it's easier to implement.

20:38So you take the personality of someone and then you can very easily start understanding the tendencies of a personality, meaning thinkers will have a tendency to critique or collaborate first. Feelers will have a tendency to care and celebrate. Once you know the dynamics of each person you're talking to, you can pretty quickly go, oh, yep, that's their tendency. Yep, that's what they need. Creatives are a good example. Creatives really need clarification. So if you're talking to someone who's creative, you need to clarify first. So using other tools like the five voices with communication code in an organization is a game changer.

21:17This is why Google, Microsoft, Pfizer, Biogen, these companies use Giant. They use our tools because they scale really well. But again, we're trying to create objective common language that the average employee can get and a team leader can use to build their communication, their relational trust, relational intelligence, so that they can get people aligned and execute and perform at a higher level than accidental leadership does. Jeremy, this is just so much the tip of the iceberg. I can feel that there's layers and layers to be had in this excursion into identifying identifying and creating and understanding great communications and the health of an organization from a communication standpoint inside.

22:04We're running out of time today, but I want to thank you so much for joining us on the show today. So appreciate it. Great questions. Thanks for letting me be here and wish all of you listening. I wish you well. I really want you to go for it, like attempt to find one relationship you want to make better and work to unlock that relationship. uh again the communication code is one tool you could use to do that jeremy is there anything else you'd like to leave with our audience today yeah i would just say it can be done one of the chapters in the book is is it worth it what we do is we make you think of one relationship through the entire book that you want to unlock and then we get to the point like is it worth it are they open is there too much history from you in the past or do you need to apologize do you need to reset it?

22:51And is it worth it? And are you willing to see change in that person? And I did it recently with a friend. And I actually went through this entire process after I wrote the book. And I decided it is worth it. And I reset the relationship. And he wasn't really aware that that was going on. But I did. And I really believe I've unlocked that relationship now. And we're kind of back to a really healthy level. So, it can be done. It's important work. It's not frou-frou. And when you get into the communication code, which is found on Amazon, when you get into the communication code, you'll find, oh my goodness, this is so practical.

23:29It's so easy to implement, whether at work. It's great for teams. We have teams buying books for the teams or organizations. So go take a look at it. If you want to learn more about what we do, it's at giantworldwide.com. And then if me as a speaker, you can find the keynote and the details at jeremykubichuk.com. So those are the places that you can find our work. And again, I appreciate being with you guys. Our guest today has been Jeremy Kubitschek, Executive Chairman and Co-Founder of Giant Worldwide and co-author of the new book, The Communication Code. Unlock every relationship, one conversation at a time.

24:08You can learn more about Jeremy as well as find links to his content and books all on our website at businessownersradio.com. Thank you for joining us on Business Owners Radio. We hope you enjoyed today's show. As always, you can read more about each episode along with links and offers in the show notes on our website, businessownersradio.com. We want to hear your feedback. Please leave comments on this show or suggestions for upcoming episodes. Tell your fellow business owners about the show and, of course, you would love the stars and comments on iTunes. Till next time, keep taking care of business.