STRATEGY | Unlocking Business Potential Through Great Questions w/ Cynthia Kay.

0:00And now, Taking Care of Business, your hosts, Craig Moen and Shai Gilad.

0:08Welcome to Business Owners Radio, episode 244. Joining Shai and I in the studio today is Cynthia Kay, author of the new book, Small Business, Big Success. How to Beat the Odds and Grow a Great Business. Cynthia founded Cynthia Kay and Company Media Production, which produces high-quality communications for organizations from Fortune Global 100 to small business. She is a passionate spokesperson for small business. For more than 35 years, she has spent significant time speaking to, teaching, and coaching small business owners while running her own award-winning company. Good morning, Cynthia. Welcome to Business Owners Radio.

0:54Well, good morning to you too. It's great to have you on our show today and thank you for your time with us. You're the author of a number of business books and I have to ask, what caused you to repeat this huge undertaking? You know, writing a book is definitely a lot of time spent with yourself. But I think the reason that I have written the books that I have written is because I love stories and I love sharing stories. And because I love stories and I love small business people, I put myself in places where I get the chance to connect with other business owners. And they're always asking, well, how did you do that?

1:42Or why did you take that turn to the business? or tell me about what you learned when you did X. And so over the years, I've kind of kept a diary of stories just to kind of remind myself of things. And this latest book, Small Business, Big Success, is a lot of my stories, but also stories from other people that I've listened to and thought they were worth sharing. Cynthia, I know that you've worked with a number of organizations around the world, both large and small. And for a number of years, I understand you're going on 35 years into this area. So you've had a lot of context, a lot of experiences.

2:26And I was curious, in working with large businesses and small businesses, from your perspective, how would you characterize these differences? And how does that really meld into what's important for each? You know, I think the thing that's important about business is that if you look at each relationship like you would a relationship with a good friend or someone that you are collaborating with, there is not a single business that I could say is like any other business that we work with. Now, there are characteristics of those businesses. Smaller businesses have a personality and a style. And large businesses have advantages and challenges when you work with them.

3:17But I think what I love most is that I love getting in and figuring out what it is that I can do that can help another business get to where they want to be. And I think it is that attitude of helping others serve that has really served my company really well. We tend not to be out front when we're working with companies. We tend not to promote ourselves. What I really love to do is say, you know, how am I going to help that business really do what they need to do? And that's really the fun of it. You know, people are in business because they serve a need. And if you don't, then why are you in business?

4:06So for me, the fun of it is figuring out what is it that a company needs. And sometimes those are very complex needs, especially with larger companies. And then taking that need and figuring out how can I solve that problem, that challenge that they're facing, and really move them ahead. And frankly, over the years, I have found that when you do that, your customers recommend you to other people. I mean, in 35 years, honestly, we have not done a ton of marketing. That's not to say that we don't go out and talk to people and do things and quote sell. But our best customers have come from other customers, people who have recommended us.

4:54And to me, that's a testament to what the team here, what I do, what my team does to help other people that they want to go out and recommend us. But there's real differences when you're working with a smaller company, their needs are very different. Some of my large companies that I work with, you know, we have decades of experience in working now with large global companies. And I find that small businesses sometimes are afraid to go after that big fish. They're afraid that they've heard the stories about, you know, the big bad company that's going to force you to do X and try and, you know, get the best price out of you.

5:41I have not found that to be the case. I have found relationships with big companies to just be really thoughtful. I find big customers to be appreciative. I can tell you a story about how I got my first big customer. And I love this story because it kind of shows you how things happen in the world. I got a cold call from a very large company. Now, they were part of actually an even bigger company, but they were looking to do a little tiny project. They wanted to take a PowerPoint and make it into a video. Now, if you know anything about media, that's like the simplest thing in the world to do.

6:25And, you know, I went out and met the person and said, you know, I'd really like to know more about your company. And they were like, well, this is like a really tiny job. Why do you want to spend more time? And the first question I asked is, do you have someone that works with you? And they said, yes. And I said, well, why aren't they doing this job? And what they told me was fascinating. They said, this job was too small for them. They didn't want this job. And I'm like, okay, I was thrilled. To me, it was an opportunity. Well, long story short, I did this dumb little job for a very small amount of money, like less than$2 ,000.

7:05And they were so thrilled with the attention that we gave, and we gave them more than what they asked for and did it in a new and different way, that when the parent company had a huge, huge RFP coming out, they got us on the list. And we won that. And that was our first large customer. And if any of you know, Herman Miller, they are a large furniture manufacturer. They were my first big customer. And then they started recommending us to other people. That's a major, major catch there. Take us back to that, Cynthia. What was your first thing that you took on with Herman Miller? Well, they actually had a communication that they were trying to do.

7:49They have employees all over the country. And they weren't very forward thinking at that time because they knew that they couldn't get all their employees in one room at a time. And so what they wanted to do was a monthly communication where they would help employees really expand their knowledge of the business. We call it business literacy and talk about the new products and the new initiatives and how were they going to manufacture things and what were the financials. And so they were looking to put together a monthly video, which back then was pretty innovative. and we actually did that for a very, very long time.

8:31Of course, the world has changed, so we don't do that anymore, but that was our first very big job. And you know what was fascinating to me was when I went for the interview, they kept asking things like, well, who will do the work? And I was kind of like, well, I'm the person sitting here and I'll be doing the work. And well, who will come out and do the video shoots? Well, that would be me. And it was fascinating. What I discovered is something that I think a lot of business people don't take into account. And it's the value of showing up. They had had previous experience, and many companies do, with somebody sells them the job, there's a sales rep or an account manager, and then they never see that person again.

9:17And when you're in business, and especially if you're a small business owner, but even for large business people, showing up is a big piece of it. And so by saying that, you know, when I was there on every single shoot for many, many years, until of course, I trained people up to do it, and then I still went out. But I think that that's something that we need to really consider, especially in this day and age of technology. I think people have maybe lost sight of the fact that there's a great impact when you show up somewhere. It's amazing how many businesses of all sizes utilize contractors or other departments of their business without really managing any of that.

10:04And you've mentioned something that really comes to mind from the standpoint of having somebody show up and they say, we're doing the video for this other company and you're not there. The whole relationship just shifted. So yeah, this is the advantage of smaller business. It can be an advantage for larger businesses, but small business has that sensitivity. They're not large and they can be there and stay with and develop those relationships. And it sounds like over the years, you still maintain that one-to-one relationship continuously. You know, there's a chapter in the book that I called How to Get FaceTime in a virtual world and when to show up.

10:47And I think understanding that in today's world is really important. And what you do when you show up. I have a great story. As a small business, I think we're very conscious of the fact that we spend our clients' money like it's our money. And I really believe in educating clients. I think if you want to have a great relationship with your customer, you have to educate them because they don't know what you know about the business. So I had a situation where I was working on a project for a very large company. And I kept saying, you know, please let me talk to your marketing people because they're wasting your money.

11:26They're making changes at a time when it's costing you. Let me help educate them about the production process. And they kept saying, no, no, no. Well, finally, they gave in. And I actually flew from Michigan all the way to California, was on the ground, I want to say less than 48 hours. And I offered to do a seminar and teach people about the media production process and what they needed to know. And if they were going to hire someone, what were the questions they should ask? and I wasn't selling my services. I was educating them about how they could be better buyers of what I do. I paid my own way and they gave me an hour and a half and it was fascinating because I even told them how they could do it themselves if they chose to and in certain cases I think they could.

12:24By the time I flew back across the country I had gotten three calls from marketing managers saying we've got a project we need you to work on. So I think this consultative approach, really working to educate customers can be super beneficial for especially small businesses, because larger entities look at us to bring them new ideas. They look at us to bring them efficiency and flexibility. And so if you can offer that to a customer, if you can teach them something, boy, you've got a customer for life. I've been doing business with that customer now for, well, and the customer is Siemens Industry, and I've been doing business with them since about 2007.

13:09And we are now just thrilled to be partners with them and to work for many of their divisions. And they're a great company, and the relationship has just been amazing. I love the philosophy, Cynthia. One of my favorite sayings is, show up and be useful. And I think, as you've pointed out, it starts with showing up. Tell us a little bit more about, I love this concept of educating the customer, helping them learn something new. What is your approach in uncovering what those needs really look like? Because there's sort of the job sometimes that they think they want to get done, but often there's actually something deeper.

13:51How do you approach that? You know, I have to tell you, I think my background as a broadcaster, I worked for 13 years in broadcasting. And in fact, one of my positions was I was an investigative reporter. I got sued for$22 million. My dad calls me the$22 million girl. I love it. Yes. But in that investigative role, what I really learned is how to ask great questions. and I think that is something we don't teach people and when I do seminars with business people, I talk about when you go in to meet with a new customer, you don't just talk about what you're doing because you have no reference there.

14:38You have to think like a good reporter. You have to be curious. You have to ask leading questions. And then you have to really listen. I think sometimes people do ask good questions, but they don't listen. They're just trying to sell what they have instead of really thinking about what can I do to make an impact for that customer. So I think the first thing is thinking about the questions. You know, what are the challenges that are facing. If there was something that they could change in their culture, in their process, in their business that would get them down the road, what would that be? Asking people to vision where they want their business to be.

15:28I will often ask customers if they come to me with a project, I say, what would success look like? If I was successful in creating something for you, what would it look like? And they might say, oh gosh, we would have everyone talking about this new product. Or the folks who are working on our factory floor would be so safe that we wouldn't have an accident for the next five years, right? They're visioning something. I think asking great questions, and we all kind of have it in us, but I think we haven't maybe practiced that skill enough. So if you can think like a reporter and be curious and really take a genuine interest in people, you can tell when someone's really not interested in you.

16:17And at least I can. And so I'm a curious person. I love to learn. I love that I get every single day to learn about people and how they want to work smarter and what are their challenges in hiring people and How can I create something that they can recruit new people? I'm constantly learning. I mean, that honestly is one of the reasons why I wrote the book and why I interviewed so many other people, because other people have different experiences. But talking with them about how did they figure something out and what can I learn from it? The smartest person in the room is not the person who speaks.

17:00Often the smartest person in the room is the one who asks a great question. I can't say enough about this, your approach. And I'm so curious about how your background is just incredible to me, Cynthia. Thinking about how you grew up in this family business. And then when you say, oh, I had this role in journalism, that's a big deal. And so many people talk about entrepreneurial mindset. And you've done such a great job of really describing that. is to become really passionately curious about your customer and really try to understand how can I help them improve. And so many of us just lead with barfing out whatever elevator pitch we have about the thing that we do great, right?

17:43We want to convince them that we have this great solution without really getting into that next layer. But this is something that's been sort of innate for you. Tell us how you got from that first family business to develop this interest in journalism. Was this just curiosity with you as long as you can remember? You know, that's interesting. You should ask that. I often tell stories about my dad. My dad was a CPA by background, but he went into business with his two brothers and they owned a dry cleaning store. And my dad had the most amazing curiosity about people. And from the time that I was little, I worked in the family business.

18:28I mean, on Saturdays, my dad would take us to the store and we would sweep the floor and check in the dirty clothes. And then I got to be the counter girl. And that's where I really saw my dad and how interested he was in his customers. And he would know everything about them. He'd know about their families, about their business. there would be doctors and lawyers and brokers who would come in the morning to have coffee with my dad and would talk to him about their businesses and I would listen. And I was always amazed at how my dad could listen. And then when they would ask him something, he could generate thoughtful responses.

19:12So I watched him do that. And I think that's where I first started to get that sense of how important the relationship is. So it started there. Truth be told, I thought I was going to be a musician. I am a singer, went to Michigan State University, go green. And I actually went for music, but I developed a curiosity in television while I was there. So I got a double major in television and radio. And while I was waiting to figure out what I was going to do with my singing career, I literally knocked on the door of a TV station and was fortunate enough to get my first job. And the very first day that I was there, the person who was training me decided since they had found a replacement for her, she would just leave.

20:08So I got thrown into the fire and I had to really draw on all those things that I learned from my dad. I mean, I was doing a live talk show five days a week. And when you're live, there is no editing. So you better think of something to say. It was a great training ground for me. I loved it. And that's how I, you know, I employed a lot of the things that my dad did. Ask a great question and then stop talking. Let somebody else talk. And then you listen so you can ask great follow-up questions. So I think some of that came from my background. Of course, I am Greek. And you know, we Greeks are very outgoing, fun-loving people.

20:54So that probably helps as well. But I think some of it is you just have to like people. And it doesn't mean you have to be extroverted either. I know some very quiet people who are excellent communicators. But it's really honing those communication skills. I think that's how I started it. And frankly, when I left broadcasting, I really wanted to be my own boss. I was in the broadcasting industry when there was a lot of the buying and selling of stations. The last station I worked at, I was there six and a half years and I worked for four different owners. I was tired. I really wanted more control over my life.

21:40I think that's why most business people choose to do their own thing is they really want to take on that responsibility. They want to take on that control of their life and be able to create something. And I have been very blessed because I have a really terrific organization. We're not huge. We are 10 strong, but we are mighty. And we have a great business because everybody's invested in it. Everyone acts like an owner. You know, Cynthia, so many of us come from a similar place where before we went out on our own, we worked a job and maybe even got a lot of satisfaction from that job at some point and a lot of great experience.

22:25but then something changes or maybe it's just nagging at you that you really feel like you want to be more in charge of your own destiny, be your own boss. And then we take that leap and we jump sometimes with a first contract that we just happen to be in the right place at the right time. And then sometimes what happens, and I wonder where this happened in your journey, because I know you've been at this for a long time and developed so many successes that you're sharing with the world now. Did you ever run into the challenge of realizing that, well, I'm sort of my own boss, but really a lot of my boss is still the customers I'm answering to, my team that I'm building.

23:01And how did you rein that in? Or was it always natural for you in terms of leading others? That is such a great question. It really is. I think that there is this myth among those people who have this idea of what it is to run a small business. And they believe it is that you get to do what you want all the time. And you're the master of your own destiny. And to some degree, that is definitely the case. But I say I went from having one or two bosses to having about 150. And I think people have to really, really think about where is their passion. And if you really want to be your very own boss, you probably need to be a solopreneur, or you need to run a micro business.

23:57But the larger you get, the reality is that you have many people who are in your sphere of influence. You have suppliers that you are responsible for that want you to do things you You have your employees that, you know, leaving people, you have to really love people to be able to do that. And I think it's the reason many people actually finally retire is they're tired of managing people. And then you've got the customer. And what I love to say is I have opinions about what I am creating for people, but I also have to put up this kind of barrier that says, remember, Cynthia, it's not your project.

24:45It's the customer's project. And in the end, they really get to decide. You can guide, you can influence, you can help them see why this may be better than that. But in the end, it really is their project. Having said that, I will tell you that chapter 12 of my book says clients and employees, when to love them and when to leave them. And I think that there comes a time in a business owner's tenure where you have to say, do I really want to serve that customer? I know that it happened early in my career. We started doing local projects. We started doing cheesy car commercials. I know you've all seen them and some projects that I really didn't love.

25:41And as I tried to build the business and become a larger entity and do more quality work, there came a time when I had to say, these customers don't fit within the work that we want to do. Because when I do it, I don't love putting my name on it. And the reality is that the work you do, you get more of that. So you want to be very careful that the work you're doing is really the kind of work that you want to generate going forward. So I actually had to send customers away. And that's a really hard thing to do when you're a business owner. But the reality is you have only so much time, so much energy, and you really want to put your best work forward.

26:28So I think it's okay to tell some of your, I'm going to go, bosses, customers, that you really don't want to work for them anymore. And I think that that's a really hard thing, especially if you're first starting out, because that means you have to replace that income. But I tell people, don't just take what comes through the door. Really look for those partnerships and that ideal customer who's going to value what you do and who's going to push you to do even more. And you're going to push them to be more innovative and creative because then everybody wins. So there's a delicate balance in the being the boss and being the leader and knowing what you can do and what you should do.

27:18Because sometimes you can do something, but should you do it? I think there are times when people will ask you to do things that may be related to your business, but not part of your core business. So, for example, I'll give you, in my world, we create many of the things that go to large trade shows and play on big plasma screens or go to sales meetings and, you know, large events. And we actually had a customer who said to us, we want you to take over everything. We want you to stage it. We want you to be involved with the setup in the location. and my eyes started to glaze over. And it would have been tempting for me to say, I can do that because we do have the technical expertise to do it.

28:13However, it's not something we regularly do. And when I looked at the hours that it would take for us to get up to speed to do something like that and really the return on all of those hours, it just made sense for us to decline. And I think it's okay for people to decline business. I think it's okay to say, I'm going to stay in my lane and I'm going to focus on what I do best. Don't confuse that with not trying something new because you can do that. But I think you have to be very clear about if it's a new initiative that is going to grow a new piece of business for you, that's one thing. If it's a one-off and you have to get up to speed to do that, but you're never going to do that again, I'd say decline the offer.

29:09Yeah, Cynthia, I'm really hearing you in that story. Talk about something that's just really so fundamental to leadership, even at the personal level, right? Which is really understanding what to say no to, to enable what can be possible for yourself and your business. You know, I really believe that one of the things that I have been so fortunate in my life is to have great colleagues, great mentors. Obviously, my dad was my biggest mentor, but also other business people. And what I really want to do is I'm at that place in my career where I love sharing. I love telling stories. I love helping new business owners, veteran business owners.

29:54And so I'm hoping that what I've written is part of my legacy, but also the interactions that I have with people. And so if anything I've said has resonated with people, I'd love it if you'd go and check it out. Small Business, Big Success, Proven Strategies to Beat the Odds and Grow Great Business. It is on Amazon and available. But if you go to my Cynthia K. Biz site, you can also download a sample of it and read some of it. And I always welcome questions and inquiries from small business owners who just would love to bounce something off of a veteran. And so I so appreciate the opportunity, Craig and Shive, for being with you.