Architecture for the AI age: How a major design firm approaches data centers

24:09When you're saying that it's also for people, just give me a sense. Like, who's working at these spaces and how are you designing for those people? Yeah, I imagine their needs are much different than sort of your typical office worker, right, that Gensler would have been really designing for a decade ago. Yeah, very much so, especially because the early data center work was that kind of equipment space. But in this war for talent, what you're seeing is that they do have to actually be considerate of the workplace component. There are still people there. They're still working hours that are sometimes crazy shifts.

24:43So the environment is actually a retention and recruitment tool. I'm picturing like all the office perks, right? From like the rise of, you know, the rise of office culture and Silicon Valley office cultures. Are there ping pong tables? I was going to ask, what is the ping pong or the food ball table today? Oh, wow. So some of the ones that we've been doing, you know, the actual people spaces are filled with natural light. They're actually very much front facing. They're environments where there's places to work and do focused work, but there's also places to kind of come together. amenitization, you know, not that different from some of the great new workplaces that we're designing.

25:22So there has to be that consideration that there's still people there. And at the same time, that these are buildings that are still have to be contributors in their larger context. Meta's Hyperion project has gotten a lot of attention for, you know, the scale of how big this data center is going to be. I think they said that they're hoping eventually to ramp up to five gigawatts at some point. But the news around this was really that Meta wanted to deploy these data centers very quickly by using, you know, TARP-like tents. And that, to me, does not speak to the human element at all. So it seems like Gensler - Or resilient elements or - Right, right, like none of the above, basically.

26:04But like, you know, it seems very at odds with what you're telling us right now in terms of like the type of amenities and resources that are required to build out a data center in any sort of like thoughtful or responsible way? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely the speed to market question can't be ignored. And speed to market doesn't necessarily mean that we have to think of temporary structures that aren't really considerate of, you know, their environment and energy efficiency somehow in this world, right? But, you know, what does it mean for having mission-critical infrastructure designed for the same level of architectural resilience and community that we bring to other major buildings that are out there.

26:46So, we believe that we have to look at it through that lens. And so, we look at each of the projects that we have as an opportunity to say, you know, what is happening from an architectural standpoint that considers how this infrastructure, you know, it's not just a response to, okay, it just got to work. It certainly has to be efficient. It has to be able to have flexibility because technologies change. It has to be able to think about energy efficiencies and the changing nature of energy for the life of these buildings. And then also, to your point earlier, what does it mean at scale? Is it a small series of buildings, or is it actually urban, or is it a large campus of buildings?

27:31So there are just so many things within that answer that I want to unpack. But before we do that, I think it would be really helpful to just zoom out a little bit, get a better understanding of who's working on these projects, especially within the Gensler office. Because, you know, our reporter Nate Berg reported a story back in February, and it said that your practice area pertaining to data center work increased by 87 % in 2024. You were projecting a 40 % increase in that practice in 2025. That's right. He said there were 200 people out of the 6 ,000 working on these projects. I'm sure that number has changed.

28:07It's now 280. Yeah. So, I mean, when did this practice start at Gensler? When did this really become a thing? Because this is not a new, like, data centers are not new. I just want to understand the trajectory here. Well, I'll share on a personal standpoint. So, I've been at the firm 30 years. I actually joined as my first job right out of grad school. So, I started as an intern, architecturally trained, getting into all different types of buildings. new built-to-suit headquarters for companies, new hotel projects. But I actually worked on a data center project in 1998. What I was asked to come in with the team and bring to it was beyond the equipment space, it was the people spaces.

28:47So here we are back then in 1998, thinking about it more than just a bunker building, right? And as I mentioned, we've grown to 280 specialists in our 6 ,500 people. but it is having that significant double-digit growth, Liz, that you mentioned, right, which says, okay, well, that's really interesting that there's this opportunity. What we find is, you know, our client partners that we're working with, it's some of those that are hiring us for data centers, but it's also clients that we've been working with, say, doing their office campuses around the world or office and retail. And they ask us, you know, hey, we're actually building up our infrastructure as a company.

29:30We'd like Gensler to be running with us at speed and we need help with data centers. We always hear about the really big sort of valuable Silicon Valley companies, right? We're hearing about all the investment from Meta and OpenAI and everything. But are you saying you're really seeing demand, I guess, from the more standard Fortune 500 company, perhaps saying, hey, we actually need our own data center sort of infrastructure as well as all the cloud services we could buy into? Yeah, it's really both end. We're seeing, certainly working with the technology companies directly, or working with developers that are going certainly down into that kind of data center focused asset.

30:07We're also seeing the clients that we're working with that are consumer product companies that are saying that they need support. And what's interesting is, and that's what I think is great about our kind of ecosystem as a firm, is we really are a highly networked organization. So it's that knowledge sharing that goes all around. So it may be 280 people and growing focused on data centers. And it's not in one location. There are multiple locations around the world, but it's also that knowledge sharing. So, you know, you're working with this one company that's maybe data center focused, right? But then there is this consumer product company that we're working with that says, hey, I got to do this.

30:45Well, you know, it's, yes, we're going to do a data center, but what does it mean for that brand? Hmm. You've talked a lot about bringing the human touches into data centers, which is definitely an aspect I've overlooked to some extent, to be totally honest. Right. There are people who there who do have to maintain the machines like the machines don't run on their own. That very much makes sense. What we have heard a lot about about data center design is sort of the need for better water usage. Right. Like it does seem like America is really in a climate of water scarcity. I mean, New York Times had a credible investigative report in 2023 that just showed all of our aquifers have been trained and they're not replenishing.

31:21And clearly data centers are just using massive, massive, massive amounts of water. And so I'm curious, where are your thoughts on sort of water mitigation? Like what's sort of Gensler's role in that, right? Like right now, I know most places are using evaporative cooling. You lose 95 % of the water through evaporative cooling. You're basically pouring water on the machines, right? And it evaporates like to really oversimplify it. Is Gensler actually architecting sort of new cooling solutions, and how do you address it? There's a real kind of opportunity to think about how these buildings are constructed, which really relates to both the infrastructure spaces and the people spaces.

31:56And I'll give you an example because it kind of channels into all aspects of materiality. So it gets to the energy that supports it, which is also, you know, obviously water. I'll give you an example. You know, most people think, oh, you're going to build with concrete or steel. Well, there's even more opportunities now to think about different ways to structurally create these buildings. So I'll use one example, mass timber. Mass timber, most people think of as more niche, but it's actually much more mainstream. And mass timber is certainly a strong structural system. Its energy efficiency is incredible in terms of its carbon footprint being much less than, say, steel or concrete.

32:40I assume a lot of these buildings are lower. Like, I know you can build a skyscraper, technically, a low skyscraper and mass timber, but a lot of these buildings have lower stories, right? So, I assume that's a big advantage, too. It's a big advantage, but it also does a couple things. One, when you see mass timber, there's a warmth to it. You know, we just finished, as an example, the Under Armour headquarters in Baltimore, Maryland. It's a mass timber building. You go in there, the ceilings aren't covered up because it's actually a beautiful structural system, right? The columns are not clad, right?

33:10So think about now, here's a structure system that we can use that has great span capabilities. You're able to do it for the infrastructure side of the building, but it extends into the people side as well. So you're getting, in a sense, a double duty out of that. So lower carbon footprint. Part of the water side of things is thinking about how are we really doing this that we're actually thinking about water as important as carbon as we're thinking about this. So you're trying to minimize the carbon footprint. You're also trying to minimize water usage. I mean, I'd argue it's more important than the carbon footprint by possibly an order to a magnitude, right?

33:45Like, because it's so literally finite of a resource. Yeah. And so, what are district-scale circular systems as the next frontier in water usage on this? You know, certainly you see closed-loop and air-cooled systems rising. And our folks that are involved in this, the 280-plus people that I mentioned, they're dealing with this every day. But we also find that when we think about these as building, how are we thinking about, you're designing certainly for today, but we have to think about what does it mean to be designing for tomorrow as well. It's been an interesting space to watch. Years and years ago, I did calculations on how much energy Google used, right?

34:24And I think I landed at like 1 % of the world's energy use. And we could never quite confirm if it was real or not, right? But it was showing that like queries took a lot of energy. But around that time, you know, you saw all this vast experimentation with companies like Microsoft trying to figure out how to sort of mitigate the scaled effects environmentally. And you see these experiments with server farms being built sort of underwater, right, and sort of other places. I just saw a research proposal about building these buildings like on the moon. And if we could just build everything out there, then it wouldn't sort of impact, you know, our environment.

34:57And I'm wondering, as you're facing this incredible demand and scale, do you feel like you have the capacity for sort of some of this regional experimentation and experimentation in form to not just sort of like put it in sort of a hot Georgian market or something, but to put it in a lake, to put it somewhere else that, you know, it might have a sort of different environmental impact? Yeah, actually, I'm really glad you brought it up because you're right. Like, look, we have teams that are doing this in the EU. We have teams that are doing this throughout the U.S. and Canada, in Latin America.

35:32And there's the whole situation both of kind of recognizing your geography, your climate, the kind of cultural context. So, it has to be factored in. You know, yes, we can bring global thinking, but it has to be decidedly local in application. So, you know, I mentioned that software system, I should mention, is part of what's something we call our InForm ecosystem. So, it's a series of proprietary tools that allow us to really look at kind of the environmental context. It allows us to look at the massing of buildings and massing, in a sense, relative not just to the buildings themselves, but to everything around it.

36:08Being able to do real-time simulations allows us to look at floor plates and test fits of how this stuff can really kind of work together. And it's really important because, you know, here we are talking about technology and it's informing, you know, greater physical infrastructure, but we're also harnessing AI's power to bring to life these ideas earlier in the design process so our clients can understand the story of a space or a building or a place long before it's built. And I think that's so important today. There's this perception that data centers are these massive anonymous boxes. And I think that's mostly true.

36:46But it's also true that you all have been thinking slightly differently about the formal qualities of data centers. Because, like, you know, I know you have big projects. You have the Wonder Valley project in Canada, which is absolutely massive. But when you look at the renderings of that, it almost looks like a chalet, right? Like, I mean, I might be. I'm glad that was your perspective. That's great. That was the intent. I'm being a little generous there, but I see what you're going for. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And so my question is, there are big boxes. There are these massive warehouse spaces. But then on the flip side, there are these buildings.

37:22And how do you convince a client to spend the extra money to do that instead of just building the box? And time. I would just add on. I imagine your clients have to be like, I'm sure everybody feels behind that you're working for right now. Well, there's definitely a time factor in all this. And I mentioned, we referenced it earlier, right? Speed to market. But at the same time, I think certainly the clients that we're working with, that they want these buildings to be able to be thought through the architectural lens. It wants to be able to think about, you know, what is really, you know, the next chapter of these buildings so that they aren't just boxes.

37:59In fact, many times we're hired, we're brought on because they're trying to actually work through that challenge of they're trying to get these buildings built, let's say, in an area where there may be neighborhoods nearby. So, you know, how is there a relationship? How do you think about beyond a building? What's the site itself? How are you actually creating the larger, I'll call it, setup of the land around it? So, it's not like, okay, it's just a walled off area over there. What is the relationship between that interstitial space between a building and its surrounding community or area? The other thing we haven't really talked about, but I think it's important, is the urban side of this.

38:42There's the growing need for urban infrastructure for everything we're talking about. In Atlanta, we're doing one where it's right on a campus, right? So it's a data center that's right there, but we wove it in into the architecture of the larger building. It's actually, I'll call it more of a mixed-use building in a sense where there's data center and other even more human-driven uses that are happening in it. But when you walk through it, you don't even really feel that there is a data center in there. So, that's the level of sensitivity that we're doing. And I think, Mark, to your question about time, with some of the tools I mentioned earlier, it's not necessarily a time add.

39:21You know, it's a parallel process effort to really think through these multiple lenses at once. What would you say is the breakdown of, I'm just going to call it big box AI data center versus like small format urban data center at this point in your project pipeline? I would say right now, it's definitely certainly more of the urban edge or suburban than the urban. But on a global level, the inquiries in urban are absolutely upticking. Because if you look at the stats of the kind of flight to urban, right, and more people in urban environments, which creates a greater need for proximity, data proximity.

40:03It's just so wild to me, this even idea of data proximity. just because it does feel like we could, in theory, put the cloud anywhere. And it just, it feels to me like a city and architectural burden to be not placing these data centers in sort of the most, honestly, remote possible places we can. Clearly, there are needs for staffing. Clearly, there are some trades where like milliseconds matter in terms of like data going back and forth. But to me, just like what we're facing as a society, that just feels so challenging. Like I just would just say very outright, Like, I don't know that I want to spend a limited amount of Chicago downtown infrastructure on buildings for computers.

40:44Do you know what I mean, Jordan? Like, I'm curious, you know, how you discuss this with clients and what's really driving the need for such hyper local cloud infrastructure in your experience, I guess. Well, I guess maybe two different things there. One, in the urban environment, and this started definitely during the pandemic, where you saw office buildings that were basically becoming underutilized assets in cities, right? And so, certainly, we were experiencing this immediately post-COVID, which is office-to-residential conversion conversation, right? That conversion conversation has extended beyond residential into a multitude of uses.

41:27everything from academic to hospitality to data centers. And so one of the things we've been seeing is these studies that we've been doing more and more of, okay, I have these underutilized buildings in these urban areas. What are the different uses? And how can we quickly ideate and show different optionality? So, okay, what if it was office to residential? What if it was actually a vertical mixed use? and there was components of that that are data center, some floors, right? And some of the things, you know, academic uses in their schools, et cetera. And then by the way, that's not like a finite conversation.

42:07That's not something that's just here now done. We're going to continue to see that because we also see this in our urban centers where there's a lot of buildings that are just kind of aging, right? They don't meet this flight to quality that so many companies are looking at when they're new leases. so then you have these buildings, you know, in the center of the city, what are you going to do with them? And it's different market to market. So like a New York market, which is having pre-pandemic, you know, rebounded success now and opportunities, incredibly busy market for office, office to residential, new residential.

42:42But there are other cities where there's this flight to quality for the new leases, but these abandoned buildings, what are you doing? And certainly if there's way to figure out new life for old bones, there's a value proposition there. So we're increasingly asked to look at, does this pencil out or does that pencil out? That's really interesting. So are you telling me that we're not going to see a Midtown skyscraper stuffed with servers? I don't think so. I think that you're going to see ways to actually integrate it in. And actually, when you think about it, I'll call it like the urban mesh network.

43:15Does it mean it all has to be concentrated in one location? Probably not, right? And how do you actually think about this? Again, it depends on the geographic areas we're talking about. But actually, what I love about these conversations is you would think it would just be the private sector, but it's not. And I think that's what's cool. I can't tell you how many conversations we have been in in the last few months, just look at the last three months, with elected officials and the private sector at the table saying, we got to just do something downtown. It's a really interesting, wild way to think about just data center distribution, too, where it's like the old amenity used to be like the workout room.

43:53And now it's like, well, are we going to like add a data center onto that floor or into that spare space, which seems to be a bit of what you're proposing, too, right? Like this idea where there are sort of pockets, you might put them. It could. I mean, depends really on the need, right? And what's the scale which you're playing. We are familiar certainly with the small-scale data center scenarios versus the hyper-large ones or the campus environments. Different needs, totally, but at the same time, it's not saying that it's all only one typology. Out of all of the data center projects that Gensler is working on right now, what would you say is the coolest, the right way to phrase this question, but like the coolest data?

44:35Don't worry. None of your clients are listening. I'm sorry. Earmuffs. I'm asking you to choose your fear. I just, you know, I basically am trying to understand what the future of this might look like. Exactly. Like, what's compelling? What's waiting for us? Like, what should we be excited about? Like, I want a glimmer of hope from you, Jordan. Like, I just, I want to know that it's not going to be a dystopian future. No, there's not a dystopian future. That definitely doesn't feel like a direction we're heading. But I'll tell you, one of the things, you know, certainly I love about the job that me and my business partner, Elizabeth, are in is we're traveling all over the place constantly.

45:06You know, we have 57 offices. So we're traveling around. We're seeing what's going on in the different markets. And I was in our Birmingham, England office, okay? So outside of London, we have a London office, but a Birmingham, where ironically, there's a lot of data center work. And I remember walking through the office one day that I was there, this is this past summer, and I see an image on the wall in the office. And I see this really gorgeous looking building, incredibly intricate facade, really dynamic pattern language. A series of screens and the scale was broken down in a way. I'm like, oh, this is really interesting.

45:41And I grabbed one of the colleagues, I'm like, who's this for? And what is this? And they're like, well, this is a data center. And it's for a client that was very sensitive about their environment, the larger environment that they're plugging into. So I'm like, okay, well, that's really intriguing that we have a partnership there where we're thinking about how this really can plug in. And Mark, I'll say one other thing that I think is, you know, we haven't touched on, but I think it's actually really kind of a larger commentary out there is the larger fidgetal world. And I'll say the fidgetal world is the combination of physical architecture at the same time of digital architecture.

46:14You certainly see that in more experiential environments that are coming out. We see it a lot on the entertainment sector. You see it in some urban areas like the AT &T district in Dallas, which is all kind of like immersive screens and artwork as part of the public space. Well, think about that extending into buildings themselves. And how does that actually start to create a different kind of dialogue or relationship with the built environment? Jordan, you work with clients that are thinking three, four, five, a decade out, I assume, all the time. Like, that's the interesting thing, I think, about architecture is that you are inherently looking at the future through a longer-term lens.

46:55And right now, I think you are privy to a view no one else has. And I am curious, based upon that, do you think we're in the AI bubble? Oh, interesting. Well, first of all, you're right. It's great to be able to have this window into so many industries and where they're going. So, like, you know, we're in 33 different practice areas, right? Across work, lifestyle, cities, health. And so, we're seeing, you know, what is the next level of care for Mayo Clinic, right? What's the new passenger experience for the Pittsburgh airport that we just opened a couple days ago? So I don't see a bubble at the moment personally from what I'm seeing.

47:37I'm seeing a continued push to actually explore what does technology mean when it's enhancing the level of experience, of interaction, of connectivity to a brand, or a connectivity to a space across these 33 different areas. I think a lot of times that discussion about bubbles looked at through a particular lens. And so, you're right for the exposure that we're getting here. We're seeing this much broader picture. I can't predict what's going to happen in that future about bubble or not. But I certainly see across 33 practice areas where there's a heavy investment. And it's an investment both in the places and spaces, you know, for each of those.

48:22but it's also a push in the technology that's integrated in the businesses of all those different companies and space types. Well, I feel like I learned a lot here about data centers that I did not know before. Jordan, thank you so much for coming on to the show. It was great having you. Yeah, Liz and Mark, thanks. Great talking to you both and appreciate the dialogue. Have a good holiday. We'll be right back after a short break.

48:52And we are back. This is our final segment of the podcast, which is Hot or Not for Design. As always, we have Cody Nelson, our producer, introducing each of the projects. And Liz and I will have sort of a fight to the death over whether they are hot or not. And I will do my best not to lead you into my own opinion along the way. So first up this week, the Issey Miyake iPhone Pocket. This is a stretchy sweater type, sock type holder for your phone. Really doing Miyake's legacy justice on that one, Cody. Sock-like, thank you. It is sock-like. It is also a beautiful knit that Issey Miyake is known for, but continue.

49:39Yes, it is. It is a beautiful knit, and it does stretch from sock shape into basically a purse for your iPhone. I actually do kind of like it. I will say my opinion on that one straight up. It is sold out everywhere already, as an Apple collab is wont to do. But this is a continuation of the Steve Jobs Issey Miyake long-term connection. Miyake-designed Steve Jobs' iconic turtleneck. So what do we think about the iPhone pocket? I want to know what Liz says. Okay, I'll go first. So this is a little bit of a cop-out, but can I be warm on this one? No. No. I can't. Okay. Okay. All right. I think I'm a not on this, and I'm going to be a not on this, not because I'm trying to be contrarian.

50:29I think that is just not a useful thing. It's an expensive thing. I understand why people are excited about it. I think it looks pretty cool. Like, I understand as an accessory. It's a fun thing to do. It's a fun thing to carry around. But not useful enough. I think that your phone might fall out of it, right? So we actually had a writer file a product review of this, a design criticism of it. And her take as a longtime Yaki fan was that she thinks it looks really cool, but it's so awkward to use. And so for that reason, it's a not for me, even though I think it's a really cool and smart idea.

51:05Wow. Well, you burned down the house with that. I mean, it's tough to counter. I haven't used it. So I could see how like, you know, donning and doffing could be tricky. But I would say it's a hot for me for sure. Next up is Simply Naked. This is the new line of chips from PepsiCo. It is colorless Doritos and colorless Cheetos without artificial flavors or dyes. The packaging is all white except for basically like the Cheetos text, the Doritos text, and then the name of the flavor. PepsiCo Foods CMO said these new snacks could help lead a, quote, snacking revolution or a renaissance. Snacking's back.

51:50Yeah, like we got rid of the red 40 and the stuff that turns your fingers orange, and that is revolution. What do we think about Simply Naked snacks? I'm hot on it. I do think it is sort of revolutionary to have a Cheeto with no dust, orange dust on it. I know they've existed. I'm sure Mark is going to say like the modern. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I think it's smart. I think that they're leaning into where the culture is now. I like that they aren't necessarily framing this as a health food. Yes. Yes. I like that the packaging looks like snack food. Right. It looks like it's not healthy for you, but it still acknowledges that this is something that you are going to eat.

52:36And, you know, like for me on occasion, for some people probably every day, but it's a fun snack. And so they aren't backing away from the snackiness of it. And they're not trying to like health wash this, which I appreciate. Despite this coming from Make America Healthy Again, basically. You know, maybe, you know, they're going to be good outcomes from somewhat, you know, misguided movements. But I'm really hot on it, too. I think you nailed it on the brand design, Liz. Like, it's exciting. and, you know, as a product, it's not really any healthier, like minus the dyes, right, than anything they've released before, but they're not really health washing it.

53:12And so I'm a lot more okay with it. And then I actually like it as a evolution of the Simply brand. Like they've already had like Simply Cheetos and things like that. And it's like the Simply was like this green utopia type thing. It just like does not jive with Chester Cheetah, right? So like this feels like a more earnest approach to what they're doing. I do love it at the end of the day too. So I'm with you guys. Next up, something for the holidays, the Starbucks Bear Cup. Starbucks recently dropped its holiday collection for this year, and it included the very adorable Bearista Cup. It's a bear-shaped 20-ounce glass cup for cold drinks.

53:50And the bear is also wearing a green Starbucks beanie. All this is yours for$29.95 if you can find it in stock. What do we think about the Bearista Cup? Mark is our resident Starbucks expert. Yeah. You go first. I mean, I would say this is one of those things like the Barista Cup was not made for me. I want to acknowledge that sort of every product has its audience. I'm not the Barista Cup buyer, but I'm also going to go with the not. Obviously, a big hit for Starbucks. I think proof that they still have this certain basic cultural cachet for lack of a better positioning. You know, you thought basic was gone, but no, like it's back in the bear.

54:33But yeah, I mean, I will admit some surprise that people went as wild for it as they did. And probably a good sentiment toward, you know, Starbucks's comeback prospects. What did you think, Liz? Yeah, I mean, I'm with you on this. This is a not for me just on a personal level. I would not buy any merch from Starbucks. That's just me. And I do think it's really interesting. That sounds like a challenge, by the way, for Starbucks. Yeah, make something I want. But yeah, no, people were so excited about this. there were fist fights, right? Like people were actually fighting to get this bear. So it's a hit for Starbucks.

55:12Got to give them the W on that, but it's a not for me. I have no interest in watching like fight videos on TikTok and stuff. And I know it's like a subculture, but I would watch Starbucks fight videos. Like I would seriously watch people fight over a bear. You might be able to. It's probably on the internet. That's hot for me. So that's a hot. I guess I'm switching this to hot. Cool. I'm glad we all agree. The Barry Stickup's awesome. Okay. So the White House remains in our list of design trends. There is more gold lettering at the White House. Since we last talked, the latest is a gold sign in front of the Oval Office in the Shelley script, Live, Laugh, Love font.

55:54And it just says the Oval Office in case you are in the West Wing and you forget where you are. What do we think about the White House's continued spree of adding gold. I feel like this is Trump's version of getting the label gun for Christmas and just covering everything he owns in it. But it's like the gilded label gun. You know, it's like, oh, in case everybody didn't know, that's the Oval Office. And also, I'm a little curious, is it necessary wayfinding for him? Earnestly, there are a lot of discussions about is he having any level of cognitive decline, it isn't actually helpful to just have a big sign that like, by the way, this is the most historic room in all of America that you're walking into the Oval Office.

56:40Anyway, maybe just to protect it from getting torn down. My question is that was there ever an Oval Office sign before? There wasn't, right? Like people just sort of inherently knew where the Oval Office is within the White House. Yeah, they never let me in there. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, obviously, this is a not for me. The font itself is not really the issue. The font has a, yeah, it has a long history designed in 1972 by Matthew Carter. It's been used for a lot of different things over the years. Lots of wedding invitations, obviously, book covers, that sort of thing. But in this context, it feels, and with the gold, it feels a little overdone, to put it politely.

57:27I mean, it's not just the Oval Office. They also use this script elsewhere in the White House. I think there's a wall. I don't know exactly where it is in the White House, but it says the presidential walk of fame. And this is where there are all of these gold framed images of past presidents, except for Biden, who now has an auto pen as an image. But now that has this scripting over it as well. So like they're really leaning all in on the Shelley script. And who knows where it's going to show up next. Anyway, with Love and Invite, we're happy to do a firsthand sort of report on it. Yeah. Anywho, last item for today.

58:02This is a Charlie XCX story, of course, because Brat is continuing in a new form. She got together the designers of the whole Brat aesthetic, and they did her upcoming album, which is a companion piece to the new Wuthering Heights remake. it's a really interesting packaging it's a standard album cover but the vinyl record and the cd has this like old timey doily on it and um at least the vinyl is being like wrapped in a white bow apparently it's being hand numbered and hand packaged and it's a totally different much more involved aesthetic than brat it seems but what do we think of the new charlie record packaging.

58:49I'm so hot for a doily. I'm just so hot for a doily. I'm into the doily too. I think it's really smart. It feels sort of of a piece with the brat aesthetic. It's not overproduced. It's using a real doily. I mean, special offer, the agency that created this, they wrote on Instagram that they found it at a restaurant in the West Village. And the people at the restaurant gave them a bunch of these doilies. And I don't know anything about the creative process beyond that we're actually having one of our reporters ask them about this. But I think the effect is really striking. I think this is like Brat 2.0.

59:24Like, where do you go from Brat? Like, this is a great answer to that. Yeah, there's something about Brat that wasn't digital, but it's like hyper-digital or hyper-processed, like that whole green aesthetic. Seeing it in installations, like whether it's in like Times Square or, you know, performances, it feels like a very interesting compliment, an unexpected compliment. and also kind of like drives off of all this like handmade, all the handmade trends that are happening right now, like, you know, crochet garments being in, I don't know, a good nod. And yeah, I just like so striking on a record.

59:55Almost like, oh, nobody did this before. Well, that's it for Hot or Not this week. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Cody.

1:00:03That's all for today's episode. Our show is produced by Cody Nelson. Mix and sound design by Tad Wadhams. Our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. And we'll see you next month.