In short
By Design Podcast Episode Notes
Episode Title
The 7 Biggest Design Trends of 2025
Episode Summary In this year-end episode of "By Design," hosts Liz Stinson and Mark Wilson reflect on the most significant design trends that shaped 2025. Joined by influential design voices, they explore various topics including the implications of AI on design, the rise of 'ragebait' advertising, and the evolving nature of craft in the face of technology. The discussion highlights key moments from the year, while also offering speculations about what 2026 may hold.
Key Themes Discussed
- The Death of Craft
- Notable Moment: The kerning error on Pope Francis's tomb sparked discussions about the decline of craftsmanship in design.
- Significance: This incident highlighted a broader trend of diminishing competency in design, where even significant projects fail to reflect quality and attention to detail.
- AI Influence: The error was likened to mistakes made by AI, prompting a conversation about the human touch in design versus automated outputs.
- AI and "Slop"
- Emerging Terminology: The term "slop" was introduced as a reflection of poorly executed designs often seen in AI-generated content.
- Cultural Response: The conversation shifted towards a resurgence of interest in handcrafted elements in advertising and design, contrasting against the backdrop of AI-driven production.
- Noteworthy Ad Campaigns
- Cody Young's Contribution: Cody Young highlighted the new Apple TV campaign that utilized practical effects, embracing craftsmanship to create a unique advertising narrative.
- General Trends: The hosts noted the division in the advertising world between brands using AI for quick output versus those focusing on human-crafted narratives.
- Ragebait Advertising
- Definition: Ragebait ads are intentional provocations meant to generate outrage and engagement.
- Case Studies: The discussion included the controversial Sydney Sweeney American Eagle ad and other brands leveraging outrage for publicity.
- Impact: This strategy has polarized audiences and indicated a shift toward more divisive marketing approaches.
- Political Polarization in Design
- Cracker Barrel Rebranding: The rebranding of Cracker Barrel drew intense scrutiny and political commentary, exemplifying how branding decisions can reflect broader societal divides.
- Government Design Initiatives: Discussed Trump's "America by Design" initiative, further illustrating how political agendas influence design choices.
- The Rise of Vibe-Coded Apps
- Definition: Vibe coding refers to the ability for users to create software tailored to their personal needs without standardized interfaces.
- Cliff Kwong's Insight: Highlighted the potential for democratizing app creation and the implications for the software design space.
- The Future of Design Employment
- Design's Relevance: As companies pivot towards AI, the necessity for skilled designers has resurfaced, especially in translating AI capabilities into user-friendly designs.
- Trends in Corporate Design: Noted the significant hiring of design talent by major tech companies, indicating a renewed investment in design thinking.
Key Quotes
- Mark Wilson: "2025 was the year craft died."
- Cody Young: "The conviction to defy the brisk pace of technological acceleration emits an aura of courage."
- Forrest Young: "The design serves as a herald for slow craft."
Conclusion The episode synthesizes a year of design trends that reflect broader societal changes, technological advancements, and the enduring quest for quality and meaning in design. As they look ahead to 2026, the hosts and their guests hint at the potential for a renewed appreciation of craft and storytelling in an increasingly digital and AI-driven world.
Additional Notes
- Guests: The episode features insights from various design professionals, including writers, curators, and industry leaders.
- Production: The episode is produced by Cody Nelson, with sound design by Nicholas Torres and executive production by Josh Christensen.
Next Episode Teaser Listeners are encouraged to stay tuned for more insights into the design landscape in 2026, as the conversation continues to evolve with the changing world.
---
Feel free to adjust any details or add more insights based on your preferences!
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:09This is By Design from the Fast Company Podcast Network. I'm Liz Stinson. And I'm Mark Wilson. Today on the show, we're doing something a little different for our final episode of 2025. That's right. It is the end of the year. It's a time for reflection, if you're inclined to do that sort of thing, Mark. And at By Design, we very much are. So we are going to spend this episode looking back at the biggest moments in design from 2025. Mark and I have our lists, of course. But we're also going to do this with the help of a few friends. We've asked a handful of today's most influential design voices to share their biggest moments of the year.
0:43So we'll play some of their takes as we go down our own lists.
0:50I was just thinking, like, we're doing all this reflection for 2025 as if I'm not up every night at 3 a.m. reflecting on everything. But no, by all means, let's do a recap. This is the fun stuff. This is the fun stuff. This is the fun stuff, though. Yeah. So why don't you get us started, Mark? What's first on our list? Okay. So 2025 was the year Kraft died. Tell me more. It's a big idea. And it really comes down to one moment for me, which was the kerning on Pope Francis's tomb. This is one that kind of set Reddit on fire early on in the cycle. And then eventually I was in my calligraphy group where for two months people were ranting about it.
1:31But essentially, Pope Francis passes away. He has a really, really lovely tomb made from marble, sourced from his hometown. And on it, his name is printed in the worst kerned possible type. And it's absolutely awful. I think a lot of people learned what kerning was in this very moment. It was a really good year for kerning and a really bad year for papal tombs. What's so wild about this is, obviously, this is one of the most significant figures in the world. You know, being buried in a place that you would think has a really incredible understanding of sort of craft. And they completely messed up this work.
2:11And it really, I think, speaks to a larger trend about just like a loss of competency, right? Like, how is it that in the middle of Rome, you can't find someone who can like properly carve in a few letters and a name into a Pavel tomb? Do we know how this happened? We still don't exactly know how it happened. We do know that they use Times New Roman, which is kind of strange to various type historians I spoke with, you know, because there are all sorts of actually like legitimate, non-interpretative sort of typefaces they could have used. But they just went full Times New Roman, like they pulled it up on Canva or something, and then they just carved it in with bad spacing.
2:49We do know what happened, which was that rather than sort of kerning it by eye, somebody used a logic that each letter should have a similar amount of space between the other letters. And that's not actually how you arrange letters. We don't have to get, like, too deep into this, but I still kind of can't believe that this happened, and I still can't believe that, like, nobody fixed it. What I think is interesting is that this sort of reads as an AI error in my mind. It does. But really, it was just done by a human who simply made a mistake. But when you see the kerning on the Pope's tomb, your mind kind of goes to AI because, you know, it's just like this little glitch of an error that makes you second guess if something was created by the human hand.
3:33And that's like such a distinctly 2025 thought that I just had. Yeah, yeah. No, no, it totally is. And it's actually pretty charming that a human messed up in this way. Yeah, it's really nice when we fail one another rather than our automated systems, I guess. Yes. And, you know, it does tie directly into AI slop. Like, you know, slop did become sort of Webster's word of the year. We saw slop sort of in a big Christmas mural in London. You have meta launching its Vibes app. And, you know, I think in this space, we all have become a little slopped out. And now we're seeing this maybe not equal, but opposite reaction, right, where this counterpoint where we see hopefully a resurgence of craft later in the year.
4:16We're seeing that within ads and sort of other spaces. Totally. I think that there has been a real shift. People are really interested in how something is being made to show that proof point that it was actually created by a human. And, you know, that's exactly what our first guest sent in for his biggest moment of the year. So, Cody, can we roll that clip now? I'm Forrest Young, and I'm a designer at Young Studio and a design and AI resident at Wolfholens. My biggest moment in design for 2025 was the debut of the new Apple TV by TBWA Media Arts Lab, using only practical effects. By employing 19th century film techniques, more akin to a zoetrope than a 2025 MoGraph workflow, the final mnemonics have a cut-through quality, as I experienced both the widely shared BTS footage and the final artifact as a single transmission.
5:08This layering of BTS and mnemonic, where the audience is brought through a laborious process to the final artifact, is reminiscent of an OK Go video and touches upon the more haunting qualities of a Thomas Demand scene meticulously crafted from paper. The color space intentionally conjures the rainbow strip apple from 1977 designed by Rob Janov, stretching time markers and semiotics between the 19th, 20th, and 21st century. The design serves as a herald for slow craft. As studios work to perfect their ratio of an acceptable equilibrium between Gen.A.I. and real subjects in media, more practitioners will relish in this art of slow making.
5:50The conviction to defy the brisk pace of technological acceleration emits an aura of courage. As deepfakes and slop will soon pervade all surfaces, the value of real or IRL will become more pronounced. Premium will become more closely aligned to time-intensive endeavors than sleek but instantaneous content. Slow will be a surprising conduit of value creation. So I just have to say that that was an extremely poetic explanation of what is essentially like, you know, a marketing material from Apple TV. Forrest, you're hired. Great job on that. What I hate most about Forrest is that he speaks better than I write to this day.
6:36Yeah. I mean, look, it's a really good point because there is this stark divide in the ad world right now where you've got startups that are using AI to create as many videos as possible. Our marketing writer, Jeff Beer, recently described these ads as sort of like the banner ads of the AI age. And he's totally right. You know, he came up with this cute phrase that he's calling the shut the fuck up brand strategy, which, you know, the idea more or less is that the most interesting brands in the future are going to be much more strategic about how and when they speak to their audience. And I think in the case of Apple, Apple really nailed this idea.
7:13They're on the front end of this idea that craft is going to be the differentiator going forward. I thought that this was a really cool use of practical effects. And so I was happy to see it. I was too. I mean, I think this was one of the first things that Apple's done in a while that was sort of universally beloved, right? Even through an external agency. Yeah. Where I find some point of tension, and I'm curious how brands like Apple respond to this. You know, Apple also had another ad, full ad this year that, you know, used puppetry and sort of, you know, a lot more practical effect. Yeah, the Winter Wonderland ad.
7:45Is that one? Yeah, the Winter Wonderland ad. And what's interesting is that, like, Apple is sort of the opposite of all that. Apple ushered in the touchscreen age. They create products that are finely crafted, for sure, but also essentially slabs that offer you digital information. And so I actually think like how that reconciles and sort of that relationship between them pushing these fuzzy, glowy type crafts with their own crafts and actually how they translate that to be more than marketing, I think is a challenge and will be interesting to see. Yeah, but, you know, you contrast that to all the other shit that is currently out there.
8:22I mean, I don't think that they have to work for that argument too much. I mean, I just want to talk really quickly about something that you mentioned earlier, Mark. These AI ads that have stirred up a lot of controversy just this month, right? So we have the McDonald's ad that was created entirely with AI. McDonald's has been thoroughly raked over the goals for it. Their defense being that we spent more on this or as much time on this as we would have a real ad, right? Right. Coincidentally, it was made by another specialized agency in the TBWA network. Not that that means anything, but, you know, I think it just shows that these brands are going to be trying a lot of different things, throwing things against the wall to see what sticks.
9:04And I'm not so worried about how Apple reconciles its reason of being with creating something beautiful. That's fine. I also think, though, it can just become, you know, if you're sort of marketing is an extension of your brand and really truly what you are, then I think they have to make sure that it's all sort of one cohesive message. But I think that also falls back on everyone. So I think this is interesting where now it feels like it's more of a liability to run an AI ad than not, right? Like it is definitely a low risk to make a plain old commercial. And so I am curious how many people are going to see Rewind.
9:42And then obviously we are in for a heavy 2026 craft year. And I also am wondering, like, how you stand out with that. Will craft become, feel like a tired trope because you have brands like Apple presenting puppeted commercials that don't feel one-on-one with their brand? It just feels like a trend, like a counter trend to a trend. So that's what I'm curious about. Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. This actually sort of segues into our next big moment of the year. And what is this one? We're talking about rage bait ads here. You know what I'm talking about. Jeans are passed down from parents to offspring, often determining traits like hair color, personality, and even eye color.
10:27My jeans are blue. Sydney Sweeney has great jeans. So how is a rage bait ad different than your normal ad? Okay. So in my mind, rage bait marketing is really about intent, which is why I'm not sure that the Sydney Sweeney American Eagle ad is really considered rage baiting. It's not entirely clear to me that that's what that was because American Eagle, they claimed that they did not do this intentionally. You know, people really pissed off about this ad. And it was mostly because American Eagle was just casually promoting eugenics and didn't seem to realize it. But the CEO told the Wall Street Journal after people got really upset about it, he said something like, you can't run from fear.
11:13We stand behind what we did. And more or less said that people misinterpreted the ad. So, you know, to me, the most telling characteristic of rage bait is that intentionality. And while Sidney Sweeney might not, that whole episode might not have been textbook rage bait, I do think that it became like a real source of inspiration for companies, for some startups who engaged in some pretty effective trolling this year. I mean, we firmly disagree on this. This is like perfect rage bait. I feel like it is the textbook dictionary of it. And I hear what you're saying on intent. But look, somebody knew somebody within the stack of creative that I think very much understood that they were sort of poking the hive.
11:56And I think that's been a lot of sort of the interpretation on it. It's like, you know, bullshit when you see it. And I feel like this is along those lines. Yeah, I mean, I guess you're probably right. It's not just a room of people who, I mean, maybe it was just people who were idly sitting by, right? With a slightly, you know, not slightly, a fully provocative idea. But I think it's a different playbook than what we've seen subsequently. If we compare it to some other rage bait. Right. Let's talk about Friend, the AI gadget, that company that spent a million dollars plastering the New York City subway with ads that were custom designed, basically to piss people off.
12:34Friends founder Avi Schiffman, who you've talked to and who you've written about, Mark, told our reporter Grace Snelling that he intentionally left a lot of white space on the ad so people could graffiti them. I'm not entirely, I don't believe that. I think it was sort of like an opposite effect of the Sidney Sweeney thing. I think it started happening and he was like, oh, actually, this white space, I meant to do that. That's why ads have white space. That's why all ads have white space. It's not about readability. It's about offering up a canvas for defacement. It's the original social media comment.
13:09Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I do think that's an interesting critique. You know, no matter what, the copywriting was absolutely rage bait. And sort of the presentation was rage bait. And sort of the in-your-face nature of saying the future is the sort of automated friend was clearly rage bait. And why do you think we are in a moment right now where we're seeing this bubble up as a trend and people like Avi are not denying it, like you have your American Eagle sort of conveniently denying it, but fully embracing it, right? Like fully saying like, no, this is a valid strategy today. I think it's a valid strategy, particularly for these kinds of companies, because the technology itself is really divisive, right?
13:52So it lends itself to this divided take on whether or not it's good or it's bad. You sort of automatically know when you put these ads out into the world that you're going to be speaking to two groups of people, either people who are with you or people who are automatically against you. And when you do that, I think it just is a perfect recipe for rage bait marketing. And we're going to I do think we're going to see a lot more of this. After the friend ads went up, there was another company called Nucleus, which covered a Soho subway station with ads suggesting that people should be choosing their unborn child's genetic traits to give them an advantage.
14:32So, you know, I guess eugenics 2.0. They said that they were directly inspired by the Sydney Sweeney ad. Good genes breed good genes, Liz. Exactly. Exactly. I think companies are going to continue to use this playbook in the coming year, though I do believe that once you're really forthcoming about your strategy around this, it loses some of its effectiveness, right? Like you lose that surprise factor once you are transparent about your intent to piss people off. Right. I'm being provocative to be provocative. I mean, Grace wrote about this trend really wonderfully for us this year. And, you know, I think one really simple observation, but very true, is that one reason RageBate is working is also just that it cuts through too much noise of everything, right?
15:18Like in a world where everything is sort of upsetting you a little bit, this advertising just leans full in, turns the knob up a couple decibels, and gets your attention. It's viral marketing 2025 version. I also think it works leading into the next trend we're really seeing. And that's around just the general polarization of branding and sort of brand response. And this is something you and I have both seen growing for, I think, a few years, where once upon a time, I feel like you defined your relationship with a brand by what you bought. So like if you liked Gap stuff, you'd buy a Gap, right?
15:55Like maybe you have Gap big on your shirt. If you like Louis Vuitton, you do that. But now I feel like it's not just what you buy. It's actually your sort of reaction to a brand that is becoming more of your identity. And we saw this with sort of Jaguar in 2024 being a really polarizing brand. And I think this year we saw it with Cracker Barrel, right? Yes, we did. So Cracker Barrel, you know, rebrands and, you know, I don't exactly know the best way to describe it at this very moment. Not really modernist, but sort of modernized. They took away the old timer. They took away the old timer. They assassinated the icons.
16:32And they gave us, you know, a really nice wordmark that was relatively welcoming. Completely serviceable for our current moment. Completely serviceable and absolutely pissed everybody off in a slightly different way depending on the outcome. Right. And I do think it's important to add to this that at that time, Cracker Barrel was undergoing a bigger transformation. They were changing their restaurants from being, you know, this knick-knack laden, kitschy, like very down-home design to something that was much more sterile. The, you know, gray walls, white accents, something that resembled just like— Yeah, that goop makeover, that Middle America goop makeover.
17:14Yeah, exactly. Middle America goop. That's a great way to describe it. But yeah, so, you know, I think people cumulatively who really cared about this brand or purported to care about this brand latched on to both of those things. And for whatever it's worth, I do think that brands can sometimes be a prism for your view of the world, for better or for worse. I feel like that's like an extremely capitalist thing that's happening these days. But the politicization of Cracker Barrel was definitely not something I saw coming, although I probably should have because of Jaguar. But it's really, it was divided between red and blue.
17:55Exactly. Once you have the president commenting on a rebrand, it has left the realm of branding and entered the realm of politics. Which also happened with Sidney Sweeney, which happened with Cracker Barrel. And then now here we are, which is probably our next big topic where everything is freaking political and design now. I mean, I look back at our last year, our first year of podcasts, right, our half year we've done, and I can't say how many political stories we've had. And that's interesting because it's only because we're covering the biggest design stories sort of objectively each month.
18:32You should hear Mark during our brainstorms. Mark's like, I don't want to do another political story. And I say, we have to do it. It's the news, Mark. Yeah, it's actually true. And, you know, to some extent, that is very much our job to be reporting on whatever it is, even if every single episode has become a little bit political. But here we are. We are going into a growing trend where everyone cares about brands. Everyone feels like they have to have an opinion on everything that's happening. And now that it's sort of expanding, I think, to all of design increasingly. Yeah, totally. I do think the biggest story by far in this arena is Trump's official sanctioning of design, if you will, with his America by Design initiative.
19:14Mark, you have been reporting on this story, so I'm going to let you take this one. Tell us a little bit about what that is and what's going on. Yeah, I mean, America by design, look, it's been a pretty complicated year within government design structures, period, I would say. When Trump came in, he rapidly started remaking sort of digitally terraforming many, many resources for Americans, and that comes down to all sorts of things. But really what we saw early in the year was obviously Elon Musk stepping with Doge. And what he did with Doge was really wipe out a lot of the internal governmental design firms that have been built up sort of, or design agencies, pardon me, that have been built up over the last decade.
19:58And so hundreds of really carefully recruited government designers, many from the private sector, were wiped out in its place. Elon sort of steps away. Joe Gebbia from Airbnb sort of steps in, and they launch America by Design, being essentially a new sort of call executive order, truly, for the prioritization of sort of aesthetics and of functionality across government design services. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a huge story. We can get into that more. But your point that this was issued via executive order is it's reflective of what Trump has done since he's come into office. He issued an executive order around architecture as well.
20:43You know, the Trump administration has really, in my mind, become a bunch of like pseudo creative directors since stepping into power. Like, and I think that's interesting because so much of the visual world, to our point about branding, is a reflection of your own view, right? So if you can make the world look like your point of view, then maybe they think it might persuade other people to think like them. I'm not sure. But yeah, I mean, you know, the America by design is one thing. I think the most recent topic that comes to mind when we're talking about politics and design is the A1 news that the State Department swapped out Times New Roman with Calibri?
21:27Calibri? How am I saying this? I say Calibri in my head, which I'm sure is. No, I think you're right. I call it Calibri, which feels very like flat Midwestern. Calibri. Calibri. Let's call it Calibri. It's a little more fun to say. But this to me is the most and the biggest indication of where the administration is at. And it's just a tiny little thing. Right. So Marco Rubio, just to give you a sense of how this like what the news is here, Secretary of State Marco Rubio recently sent a memo to his staff saying that the State Department would be switching from Calibri to Times New Roman. There is a lot of history to this beef, and I'm going to spare us all of the details.
22:11But in short, the State Department had been using Times New Roman for a very long time until 2023 when former Secretary of State Antony Blinken replaced it with Calibri. So Calibri is a sans-serif font that is probably best known as the former default font in Microsoft Word. And, you know, this was a really big deal a few years ago. Some people were not happy that this was happening, but the idea was that the State Department needed to have a typeface that was more accessible. And Calibri apparently is a font that is much easier to read on screens for people with low vision or who are dyslexic.
22:50And the Trump administration did not like that because it was part of the DEI and Accessibility Initiative. So, you know, you fast forward to 2025, and Rubio decided that he wanted to get rid of what is being called the woke font. So we switched back to Times New Roman because it looked more professional. It was quite the drama. It's quite the drama. I mean, even Times New Roman has, you can look at the serifs at the ends of the T's and Times New Roman and everything else as accessibility tools too, right? Like, this is something, an object. Every letter is an object meant to be read. But yes, it is an extension of those efforts and a very sort of high-profile public story that can be told.
23:33Right. So the point here is that this administration has politicized everything down to the most minute detail of how it is sending memos. And, you know, I think it cues up our next guest who has something to say about this very topic. I'm Paola Antonaglia. I'm Senior Curator of Architecture and Design at MoMA. The demolition of the East Wing of the White House is what really did it for me. That was the design metaphor that brought the whole year home. So back and forth in time since that October 20th, the whole year has been about demolition, mostly senseless and even when not senseless, likely to be replaced by worse.
24:15from Doge to vaccination policies, scientific academic research, rainbow crosswalks, good taste, press independence, public radio and television, international aid, all the way to the recent Calibri versus Stein's New Roman War. I sometimes feel that I am in a despicable me movie in which the villain's goal is just to stomp and crush and eat everything. let's blow it all up, grew just because. And with all the real destruction that is going on in regions at war like Ukraine, Gaza, Somalia, or under the strain of environmental catastrophes from Los Angeles to Sri Lanka, it feels really wasteful, petty, petty, petty, but also extremely dangerous.
24:59I cannot wait to start rebuilding. And we will start here in New York on January 1st. I mean, petty, petty, petty is and dangerous is exactly the right word for what she's describing here. I mean, Paola is obviously one of the great documenters of design and culture. And so, you know, I think I think hearing her say that this was her biggest moment really underscores that idea for me. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think we said this on an earlier podcast, you know, seeing that image of, you know, the White House demolition. And I do think it's one of those images that we're going to be talking about 10, 20, 30 years.
25:37It's just indicative of this moment. So we're going to switch gears for our next one a little bit. But we're going to turn away from politics and just toward hardcore tech. I think this year, though, has brought us something we've all known was coming, but we're really actually seeing it play out now, which is not just better and better AI models, but the commoditized AI models. That in a time of sort of impossible spending going on where everybody was racing to build the next great LLM or other, you know, AI technology, we're really seeing a lot of people doing great work, all in tandem, driving down prices and sort of blurring the lines between one company and another.
26:22In February, we saw DeepSeek R1 come out of China. This was, you know, it feels like eons ago, but this kind of rocked the world because for the first time, someone who was completely off the map came in and challenged OpenAI's just dominance in this space, just how well they were doing. R1 performed about as well as OpenAI models at the time for 3 % of the price. They absolutely forced OpenAI to sort of counter, bring out new models they'd been working on, also drove down OpenAI's pricing. But again, this just sort of illustrated the moment of sort of the commodity model. Then, you know, toward the end of this year, I think we saw another pretty big shift in power, which was Google with its latest Nano Banana and Gemini coming and really leveling the playing field in a big way, potentially even cutting in front of the line.
Read the full transcript
27:16And everyone thought Google was sort of out in the AI race, even though many of the core technologies at OpenAI actually came from Google engineers. You know, now we actually see Google as sort of a company responding. Will Google be on top forever? I'm not really saying that's going to happen or not. What I think is interesting, again, is this idea that there is this unlimited sort of AI power coming in no single one company that I think will own it. Just to play devil's advocate, why is this a design story to you? I mean, this is a design story for a few reasons. One, it's a developer's market now, right?
27:51Like when you have so many specialty technologists essentially offering better and better AI tools, essentially for less and less, it really feeds experimentation and the ability to sort of develop new product. At the same time, these AI models are becoming very competent at design. I mean, one reason that, you know, I think Google's developments are so interesting is the amount of visually literate work they can do, ranging from interface to information design. I mean, like a really wide range. If you look at the examples of how people are using it, that's not just like one or two tricks. You start to see like sort of true, deep visual logics like you're seeing, like we've seen LLMs able to mix words, right?
28:37We're starting to see them sort of reshape pixels in that way as well. Yeah, I mean, we're definitely entering into a world, or we're already in the world, where you don't have to be a developer to create software, and where you frankly don't have to be a designer to design. It's just getting really blurry with these new tools. You know, I'm thinking about the vibe coding company, Cursor, who just launched a new visual editor that effectively lets people code visual elements in the same window just by dragging and dropping. You get an immediate interface. It's sort of, in my mind, the what you see is what you get new era of that.
29:14And I think it's going to be really interesting to see where this goes. Perfect segue into our next guest who has a lot to say about vibe coding. Former Fast Company design editor, founder, really, Cliff Kwong. I'm Cliff Kwong, senior staff designer at Google working on Android AI. I'm author of the book User Friendly, How the Hidden Rules of Design are Changing the Way We Live, Work, and Play. To my mind, the biggest design moment of 2025 and perhaps the biggest design moment of the coming decade, if not century, is clearly the notion of vibe-coded apps. And one of the reasons I find it so interesting is, Obviously, I think that impact is going to lie in how different the world will be when anybody can create software to whatever purpose they need to.
30:00Because heretofore, like everything you see around you, all the software that's made, it's all about how can it scale to the most number of users possible, right? With Vibe Coded Apps, you're contemplating a world where people can make whatever they want just for them. And that is a wildly different place than the one that created the UX design that we know of now. Like it was all about like recognizable patterns and things that everybody could use without really needing to understand that they could use very intuitively. It's a clearly just a watershed moment for what happens next with most of what we designed today, which is digital artifacts, right?
30:35And another thing I find really interesting is that like, you know, I'm part of the class action lawsuit as an author that Anthropic paid out. I think, I forget what the award amount was, it's just like a couple billion dollars. And so, you know, the nature of that lawsuit was that Anthropik infringed my copyright by scraping the book that I wrote. And so all of these LLMs, you could argue, like at the very least repackaging and reformatting a bunch of original creation by people that took the time to write things down. And, you know, there's been all this like sort of discussion about how much that has like sort of taken the intellectual property of the original creators of that in images as well, videos as well, right?
31:13But the remarkable thing about Vibe coding is that there's another thing that another bit of ip that is now being returned to us so on the one hand you have authors artists all these people who their creations fed into these models and is in fact what makes those models work but now think about all the engineers that coded all these things and all these big tech companies now whose work is now being returned to regular people so that regular people can take advantage of all that work that those engineers have done it's a remarkable shift. And so, yeah, we see lots of startups. We see Wabi, Gizmo, the nothing playground.
31:48You see my own work, which I think I hope is coming out in 2026. And these are all things that allow you to speak software into existence, right? And while we're all reeling from the impact of letting people speak images into existence, just imagine what happens when you can speak software into existence. So I'll just start by saying that I think the idea of stealing back power from big tech is going to be really compelling to the average person. Now, I don't know that I absolutely agree that that's what's happening, because at the end of the day, in my mind, big tech is still going to be building the tools for you to make your own interface.
32:25No, no, we're stealing back the power, but the trade is all of our water supply. So there would be a little bit of pushback there, although I can appreciate parts of the sentiment quite a bit. No, I think, but I do think that as a future idea, it's really, really interesting to his point, you know, not scaling software to the average person in very large numbers, people making whatever they want. But to me, what's really interesting about that, when you're not creating a prescriptive interface, you're, as a technology company that is bringing this future into being, what you're essentially going to be doing is creating tools for other people to create their own interface.
33:06You know, these custom interfaces on demand. And so I would be very curious to understand how a company like Google is thinking about that problem right now. Because right now, they are still a company that creates prescriptive interfaces. It tells us how to use its products. And in the future, it sounds like that might not necessarily always be the case. No, you're saying the interface stack just moves up where instead of all of us using Microsoft Word, we're all using Figma or NanoBanana or something to create whatever we want to then have custom. Right. I think it's a really interesting observation because, you know, interface will live somewhere, I think, to your point.
33:46Look, I think Cliff's comment, I mean, he's dead on to call it vibe coding. I think the importance in this year. It's interesting because philosophically, I used to fully agree with him. When AI and generative AI first took off, I always imagined a future where it's not one interface or two, but a million billion interfaces, right? And that's kind of what this imagines. Your custom sort of almost orthopedic software, right? Like meant to actually complement your mental physiology, if you will. Now, I believe that will be a big part of the future. It will absolutely drive innovation. Perhaps every piece of software will be customizable.
34:23Where I start to question it is, you know, a few things. Like one, I think no matter what we have, there will always be things that work really well for everybody, right? Like your doorknobs of interface. And so when we talk about sort of like gender interfaces and where are the lines, and Cliff, I'm sure, has a lot to say on this. But I think those doorknobs are still going to exist. And I think a lot of those shapes are still going to be very familiar day to day. And then I also do believe that the specialist designer leveraging the best AI will always do better than the layperson leveraging the best of AI and design.
34:56And so I'm not sure if we really will just see everyone vibe coding all of their own apps. I think it could happen in select cases a lot. But for instance, just because YouTube came around and we were all able to upload our own videos from our phones didn't eliminate filmmaking. It democratized filmmaking in a lot of ways, but it didn't eliminate the sort of artisan filmmaker. It didn't kill the Oscars. Mr. Beast is a new phenomenon, but he didn't replace a lot of great filmmaking in general. And so I think it's a complicated narrative is really my conclusion here. Like, I don't know that, like, every person will be vibe coding a majority of their apps in the near future.
35:36I don't think the majority of people are going to be vibe coding their apps in the way that we see vibe coding now. I think that our definition of vibe coding is going to look vastly different in five years than it does today. And maybe, you know, it will have some of those doorknobs, to use your phrase, baked into the guardrails of what you can create. Maybe, you know, we'll coalesce around some standards when it comes to how to build interfaces. I mean, this is going to have to be very hand-holding. The average person does not want to do this. The average person will probably not do this. I think what we're probably going to see is software that may or may not be vibe coded exactly, but it does have a degree of personalization to it.
36:22And so, you know, that might not be vibe coding as we see it today. But I do think the general idea, the ethos of this personalized software is going to be something that is increasingly relevant. And vibe coding is one of those words that means too many things. Exactly. And can mean too many things into the future. You know, the idea that AI will make software malleable, I think, is really compelling and 100 % true, right? And the idea that much like some people customize their car, some people don't, we'll see a lot of people customizing software with AI really, really, really soon with some of the tools that are launching, too.
36:56So we're going to move from vibe coding to just vibes. We've got one more pick from a guest. Cody, let's roll it. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Goodspeed, and I'm a graphic designer and writer as well as the U.S. editor-at-large for It's Nice Thought. My biggest moment in design for 2025 was the visual direction of Sabrina Carpenter's short and sweet tour. I have never really been one to follow tours too closely since I'm not particularly part of a fandom that calls for it. But every time a picture or video of this one crossed my feet, it really made me just so joyful. I thought it was incredibly cohesive from her choreography and amazing bouncy hair to the little details of the set and costumes.
37:32In particular, I thought the way she customized her corset every single night to the city that she was visiting was really special. She had a Hollywood sign corset in L.A., Wonder Woman homage on Halloween, which she also called short and spooky. And even a closing credit inspired the end one on the last day of the tour. I think even though she was tapping into a larger focus on retro aesthetics that's happening in sort of the larger creative landscape, it still felt really unique and like her. And I also think she showed a really big commitment to craft, which sort of stands in contrast to a lot of what's happening right now.
38:02So I think despite being a designer, I'm often not super inspired or maybe I'm just a little bored of everyday design news. But all the pieces of the tour kind of just reminded me how fun it is to really build a world, have fun, be cheeky, and just take risks. I'm not going to lie, Mark. I had to look this one up. I don't follow Sabrina Carpenter, really, although she has some good hits. But the visual tour here, I agree. I mean, it is a world unto itself. It is deeply creative. but was not familiar with this one. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's interesting because, look, Goodspeed's an amazing critic.
38:39I feel like the algorithm got you Goodspeed on this one. Like, I think it's interesting because the amount of Sabrina Carpenter you saw was probably the amount of the Chromacopia tour from Tyler, the creator, that I saw. And I might conclude very similar things, that this was a very strong, visually cohesive statement that brought people into a different world that was sort of centered around a singular artist with a unique view. That said, I dug into it more too after hearing this. And I do think that Sabrina nails this remixed classic Hollywood, very like 50s, like a lot of like her whole stages could be out of almost like a Fred Astaire movie modernized.
39:20Right. Then with sort of her iconic corset and just like owning that entire identity. And it is a really sort of gleeful thing in a way that I would say last year we had Brat Summer and we had the Ares Tour. And this definitely hits like a very different lane. It definitely hits a different lane. But I do think it's interesting because to your point, last summer, last year in general, we had some really big moments, music moments, visual music moments that broke through that spoke to almost everybody culturally. This year has felt a little barren in that regard, right? I think that your algorithmic tuning really did determine what you saw when it comes to these cultural touchstone moments.
40:09Maybe it was Lorde for some people. Maybe it was Sabrina Carpenter. Maybe it was Tyler, the creator. But to me, it feels a little lacking because it felt good to have that moment where everybody was talking about the same thing, even at the end of the day. we got a little tired of it. I think it's a really interesting point. We talked a lot during the summer about how there was no song of the summer and there wasn't until really Golden came out of nowhere through K-pop Demon Hunters and I think took over sort of the last end of the year. And there's a way that we saw this year a sort of virtual musical performance overshadowed every other one.
40:51I mean, it's basically like what Gorillaz did a decade plus ago with a virtual band, but happening within sort of a movie summer moment. And so, yes, as I impact this more, I'm not exactly sure what it means about this moment and sort of entertainment aesthetics more broadly. Yeah. I really wish you hadn't brought up K-pop Demon Hunters. My five-year-old and now my three-year-old are, you know, it's like they're drafting off the culture of older children. So it's just now getting to me. And when I wake up in the middle of the night, all I can hear is soda pop. You got to go either early or later tracks.
41:30I do kind of tune down the soda pop. It's a little too earwormy. You got to go full max on the more emotive ones.
41:41From someone who has been through that. Good advice. That's my advice I'd share with you, Liz. And so for our last big moment of 2025, designers are back or are they? Yeah, what a moment. What a way to encapsulate the year. No, I do think that this is an interesting topic to talk about simply because so much has changed in 2025, at least in my mind. I want to start with something that you wrote about earlier in the year, Mark. You wrote a piece that we ran with the headline, Is Design Dead? Obviously, people love that headline. Got a little blowback for that one. But, you know, the gist of it is that design is effectively in a down cycle, at least when it comes to investment from large companies.
42:29You wrote that among many Fortune 500 companies, 39 percent had cut the top one or two levels of their design organization, downgrading the level or titles of the heads of designs. So there were all sorts of reasons for this institutional leveling of design, which you write about in your piece. So if people want to read that, please go ahead and do so. We'll be in the show notes. But, you know, this had been happening for a while. I think that message has felt more urgent, or at least it did on the front half of the year, because companies at that moment were starting to pivot really in earnest towards an AI workflow.
43:08There was lots of hand wringing. When that came out in March, I felt like it was an entirely different year in my mind. Yeah, I know. It's hard for me to, when we were talking about this, it's hard to believe that this was actually this year that we had this whole discussion. That really, this piece was all written from an actual meeting of people leading Fortune 500 companies that I sat in on. They were literally asking that question, it's designed up. That was their language that I sort of, you could say, plagiarized for a headline. But now it's been absolutely a rough year in corporate America.
43:41Let's be honest. There have been so many people fired as companies have decided to double down and invest in AI. Not necessarily replacing those people with AI as a business package, but definitely re-channeling their salaries into building AI models and investing in AI resources. But now what we're seeing, right, is that AI is an engineering technology and how do you actually do something with it? And all of a sudden, it does feel like designers have stepped into a moment of, I wouldn't say relevance, but acknowledged relevance again. Yeah, it feels like there has been a real vibe shift in terms of how people are talking about the value of design.
44:24To your point, you have all of the software out there. These companies need people who understand AI and who understand design because design now is once again a differentiator, which is something that was said for a very, very long time, you know, the past decade that that has sort of been the refrain until until it wasn't. I mean, the vibes are definitely in the air. I think the discussion has changed. We're seeing positions open. I mean, but like within corporate America, we have seen a few, I think, significant moments this year that we could cite along these lines. Yeah, in my mind, there was a real narrative shift on the back end of this year.
45:00And that really began with the giant Figma IPO, which valued the company at that time at$20 billion. Not really sure where they're at today, but that was a really, really big deal. So all of a sudden, people who probably had never given a thought to design were talking about design, the value of design. And I think it put design on a lot of people's radars. Absolutely. I think the Figma IPO was really big. You saw sort of Wall Street actually acknowledge the value of design and design tools in a very big way that we haven't seen in a few years. Then you also have, you know, beginning of the year you hear about Meta poaching like AI talent from everyone, but they ended the year by grabbing Alan Dye and Billy Sorrentino from Apple.
45:48They were both really leading design there. And now they're going to be running a lab where Meta is trying to build sort of everything, right? Like trying to step away from just like VR headsets, which they actually sort of like lowered their investment in to pretty much like interactive clothing and other technologies that are just alive and connected to the internet. I mean, we'll see how this trickles down to lower level designers, right? The everyday average designer, no shade there. Just like people who are actually doing the work. These are big headlines. These are big numbers. We don't know how much they got paid.
46:23We can imagine just based on what's happening at Meta, this was a big get for them. But right now, at least what I've been seeing online, it feels like this is, quote unquote, like a new golden age for designers. And I think it's still a little bit outstanding how long this golden age will last simply because, you know, we just talked about vibe coding. What happens in a few years? It comes down to how good that vibe coding is, right? Right. But 2025, the year of the designer. I would argue it's the year of the designer, Mark. I mean, I would argue 2026 might be the year of the designer. Okay, we'll see.
47:00Let's look forward. So I do have one question, though, which is the holidays are coming up. What's one holiday tradition you have that you're really looking forward to? I had my new holiday tradition, which is perfecting my latke recipe. Oh. Made those on Sunday. Best batch yet. Best batch yet. That sounds delicious. I think investing in perfect food execution over time is a wonderful tradition. You get to do it once a year. So you've got one shot annually. Yeah, the pressure's on. What about you, Mark? I actually love the holidays because otherwise, you know, I'm in the Midwest and everything's just gray.
47:39I'm going to say for New Year's Eve, my family stays in and we make like a big spread of hors d 'oeuvres. and we just like kind of gnaw at them all night. I'm really looking forward to that this year. Do your kids stay up till midnight? They try. I want to say one of my children can make it. One, I think, will make it this year. I can barely make it. Yeah, it's actually true. I'm tired. I can barely make it. Yeah. Cody? Yeah, how about you, Cody? I think this is going to be a year of new traditions because my little sister just had a baby. And we're going to have a Christmas baby. We love babies.
48:17Is this your first uncle Christmas? It's my first where it is my own biological sister, not an in-law, having the child. You love them all the same, Cody. We do. We do. It is, they're just a lot closer to me as well. And, I mean, when you see the baby look like you a little bit, it's crazy. I was going to say, it's like, whoa. Yeah, the DNA's in there somewhere. The biological uncle connection is real. That's very exciting, though. Babies are the best. I hope you put a little Santa hat on the baby. I got him a Peanuts Christmas blanket. Even better. That's what I'm excited about. Well, thanks for a great year of podcasting, you two.
48:56Yeah, thanks for the year of pod. More pods to come in 2026.
49:04That's all for now. And thanks so much to our guests for being part of the first year of By Design. Our show is produced by Cody Nelson. Mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. Our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you get your podcasts. And we'll see you in 2026.
From the publisher
What defined design in 2025? For our December episode, we look back at the seven most significant design trends of the year.
This time, Liz and Mark are joined by some special guests, as they discuss growing movements ranging from vibecoding to ragebait advertising. They ask questions like, is craft dead in the age of AI? And, when did everything in design become so political?
Tune in for the best analysis of our year that was from some of the sharpest minds in the industry, and stay for hints to what’s coming next in 2026.
