280. CFOs CFO | with How to Delegate Like a CFO: Strengths, Ownership & Fractional Support with Sara Daw

0:00Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary, and with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition, to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

0:48Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host, Hannah Monroe, and with me today is a returning guest, Sarah Dorff, who is the CEO of the CFO Center. Welcome, Sarah. It's great to have you with me today. And great to be back. Thanks so much for inviting me. So we're going to talk today about almost how to build that team around you in order to live the objectives that you have as a CFO. And sometimes it can be a lot broader than maybe that traditional CFO role. So let's just talk about, you know, how do you build a team around you as a CFO that really plays to your strengths, but also enables you to meet the goals of the business?

1:31Yeah, so I think you hit the nail on the head there with your intro around the question around playing to your strengths. So I think that's important, obviously, for the CFO and understanding yourself and knowing how you operate best. But also, I think it goes further than that and it goes towards your team and playing to the strengths of the team. So I'm a really big believer in this. It's a team game and having the right people in the right roles at the right time in organization, whether that's full-time, part-time, fractional, or flexible. Yet it's really important, I think, that you understand the strengths of all the individuals in the team.

2:18Because what I see as a bit of a pitfall sometimes is that we tend to focus on people's deficit, their weakness, and bring them up to a mediocre level. Whereas I'd rather flip that completely on its head and play to everyone's strengths. And then, so then we have the specialness of everyone. We have their passion. We have normally their excitement around those elements of the roles. And then in a collective way, looking at the gaps that that might show up between those strengths and understanding then how to fill those gaps in a team environment. Because then I think you get really high performance if you do it that way.

2:59And we talked about playing to our strengths, but there are some elements where I guess we need to make an assessment as an individual as to, should that be something I need to work on because it forms part of my role as CFO versus what can I outsource because it's not an area of passion or interest for me personally. And so I could push working? Are there any particular things that a CFO shouldn't outsource or delegate to others versus, you know, what they could or, you know, should keep just for them, for themselves to master it, potentially, even if it's not their area of strength? Yes. And I think this works for your team members and for you as a CFO as well.

3:44I think it's, so I said that point upfront about knowing yourself. So normally, our strengths are areas where we have an interest, where we have some passion, we have some training and expertise. And obviously, we're in an area of the business where we're in a business that allows us to operate in that area. And I think it's so it's important to know what those are, but align those then with the business needs. And it's really important, I think, that you stay within those tram lines and deliver yourself as the CFO the things that are very, very valuable to the business and your strength at the same time.

4:29So, for instance, if you are a public organization and you need to do a lot of investor relations, that may be absolutely the thing that only the CFO can do. And that should be what they should do. And then they should look at the non-core activities that fall within their remit that they could potentially outsource either to their team or bring in specialist expertise. So I think it's a matrix of understanding yourself and where you want to play and where you can play or where you want to develop yourself to play. And secondly, then understand what the business needs and match up the high priority areas with your strengths and then outsource the rest that are non-core.

5:19And I think you can do that individually with your team members and yourself. And for your team members, it's about knowing them individually, deeply, understanding where they excel and giving them the relevant distinctive work that would enable them to operate in that area of expertise and then build complementary skill sets around that within the team. And you can do it for yourself and obviously for your team as well. And obviously, as a CFO, like the volume of what needs to be done and all sits within your remit is massive. How do you balance, you know, delegating activities that perhaps are outside of your strength and or interest or priority list with maintaining oversight of those things?

6:11What's your advice for maybe for that side of things? I think it's really important to delegate well. And I think there's quite a lot of, I guess, misunderstanding around delegating well, because delegation is not abdication, because that creates more work. Delegation is a huge skill, actually. I mean, and one of the skills that I think is absolutely critical for a CFO of today, given we've just talked about all the tasks they've got to do. So if they're not doing all of them, you're very questioned, how do you delegate well and it not create extra work for you to either go back and redo things that aren't done well, or just spend a lot of time in oversight.

6:56So I think the key thing is to delegate outcomes, not tasks, to be really clear on what the outcome is. So it's not, can you look at this? It is, I need a cash flow ready board report on the cash flow with three scenarios by Friday. And then be really clear around what the individual you're delegating to is in control of, what might need to escalate and what needs to be signed off, and then have checkpoints along the way to make sure that you're supporting as they go. And there's a little bit of a safety net there so you don't get to the end point and realise it's completely gone off track. And obviously, if you play to their strengths within that, you have more chance of it being done correctly as well.

7:49So maybe it's delegating not by hierarchy, but by delegating to people by their strengths. So I think you're absolutely right to pick on delegation as an absolutely key skill here for the CFO in order to be able to keep on top of everything. and where you know where a task isn't completed well right what should you be thinking about as CFO and because I think that can be the challenge I you know speak for somebody that has a team right that the hardest bit is once if something doesn't go well what you delegated is that well why why was it well you know is digging into that so what are the key questions you need to ask yourself when perhaps a delegation hasn't gone to plan?

8:39Yeah, so I guess I think you've got to look at yourself to a degree. Like, did I delegate well? So did I follow that framework up front that we just spoke around? Because it could just be that I chose the wrong person, I wasn't clear, I didn't support them along the way, we didn't have the checkpoints and the milestones, we didn't have one owner. So I think that's another key way to delegate well, is no ambiguity around the ownership of that delegated outcome. It is very clear who owns it, the person you've delegated to with support. So I think first I would be going to that framework and saying, did we execute that well?

9:20And I think potentially it's a we conversation. It's not a you and it's not a me. Do it together because then you can, with that team member, you can then smooth that forward for the next time and create a collaborative, moving forward, positive environment around it, rather around learning as opposed to blame. And then I think it's also being really clear around the gaps in the first place. So it could be that we delegate, I delegated to someone that actually didn't have the full skill set in the first place and needed development into that skill set. So it wasn't their strength. It could be they were in the wrong seat and I assumed.

10:04It could be actually we don't even have that skill set in the organization and we need to bring a specialist in. So it could be I delegated well, but that individual, you know, just didn't have the skills and I need to fill those gaps. So I think it's almost it's almost critical at the front end to understand the skills matrix of my team up front to then place the delegation piece across that so then you know where your gaps are and then you'll see that you know you're getting to a point where you may have need of a new role or more development opportunities in an organization obviously if things continue if you if you put all that in place and things don't go well, then you're looking at performance review and all those sorts of things.

10:53And does your delegation style or approach change depending on the level of the individual? Or how would it change, I guess, probably more? Yes. So, I think this is interesting because I've spoken a lot around delegation in the sort of team context there around the CFO is the senior member of the team and they have more junior members of the team working with them who all report in. There is another role in organizations that we're seeing more and more of, where you bring specialists in to do specialist roles that may actually sit more alongside in a peer-type context, alongside the CFO. And the beauty of bringing them in is, so this could be fractional C-suite, for example, a fractional CFO.

11:43The beauty of bringing those individuals in a peer context is it's another one of me because they've sat in my seat before, which is really nice. They know what it feels like so they can sympathize and empathize. And yet they have perhaps complementary skills to me because they're non-core to the organization, but I have a volume of work that I need to get done. Now, what I would say in those types of situations is typically those individuals do not necessarily need to have the same level of oversight because they've got the skills that I've got. And that's the beauty of bringing them in. So they're less draining on my time.

12:20I understand that they can do the work. So it's more around, that would be for me, more around communication to the team around who's doing what. So there's no ambiguity around that. It would be more around communication around timelines and expectations and outcomes, But probably less, less draining on my time around the checkpoints along the way necessarily around how the work gets done. It's probably at just what level you're at at each stage. Are you on time? Because you would expect that specialist to be able to deliver and be able to do the how themselves. Yeah. And what scenarios have you seen, obviously, within your line of work?

13:06You're working with a team of fractional CFOs. What scenarios have you seen that really work for that kind of fractional piece to support an existing CFO, the CFO's CFO, as it were? Yes. Yeah. The CFO, CFO. So it's really, it's quite broad, actually. What we've seen is where there's, so I'll give you some examples. So where there's a volume of work to get done. So recently, a business that needed to do 44 acquisitions very, very quickly. And, you know, there's probably no human CFO that could get that done in the timescale that on their own that they were looking for and keep the business running and do BAU.

13:48So then it's a choice point is, do I bring in specialist CFO, fractional CFO to be a CFO CFO alongside me and they do the acquisitions and I do BAU or do we switch that around? So then that goes to probably the strengths of the incumbent CFO. Which do I want to do? Where's my best value add for this piece? In the situation we had, We did the acquisitions and reported into the CFO and ticked them off as we got going, and they carried on running BAU. But it could be the other way around. And we've seen that as well, where, you know, a CFO that we've helped wanted to do an acquisition, but needed someone to keep a steady hand on the ship for the BAU.

14:34So that's perfect. That can work. Um, other scenarios are where, um, I'm new to the CFO role. So I, I, perhaps this is my first CFO role and I don't have, you know, years and years of experience. And actually I would like someone to be a bit of a safety net for me, for the organization and develop me and be a sounding ball for me. So that's more of a generic role, more of a mentoring role that a CFO, CFO can do. We also have it where it isn't M &A, but maybe it's systems. So you bring in a specialist who can move ahead with your systems integration, or perhaps AI enablement. So it can be functional, it can be sector, it can be structural, it can be mentoring.

15:33And quite frankly, you know, all of those are on the table. The key thing is there are some ground rules a little bit about how it works and how you make sure that the organisation gets the best of it and both parties deliver value. And that's obviously, I guess, a piece around working with somebody of of a diff of a similar level or a similar level mate they might have more experience in an area but they're used to working at that sort of that more senior c-suite level so you know how do you work with somebody at that level to both give them the I guess the freedom that they they used to and they expect with but also making sure that you've got your hand on the rudder as to what's going on what you know what's what's important to make sure that you get the value from those kind of relationships.

16:27Yes. Yeah. And I think there are these ground rules. And I think it's really important to position this well, both to the organisation internally and nextly and with the individuals themselves. So firstly, I think everyone must be willing. I think that's really important. So this is a positive step forward. And it's not seen as a negative. This is scaling capability, it's accelerating growth, it's delivering on the business priorities. So it's a positive step forward. That means that everyone benefits both the individual receiving the support or the extra skill sets, and the business and the team.

17:13So firstly, they're willing, I think it's, you need to be clear why you're doing it. So it could be that there's complementary skills and capabilities, like I just said, around I've never done this before. I'd like to learn from you or can you do it for me? Or equally, it could just be extra bandwidth. You know, I could do it, but quite frankly, you know, I just don't have the time. I think the personalities, the key thing is I think these two people need to get on. They really need to be able to get on. And don't underestimate that because it's just a non-starter. So I think they need to, you know, and that needs to be two-way, mutual respect.

17:58Communication between the two individuals is vital. So they need to be clear on who owns what, what are the responsibilities of each of them, and then how is that communicated to the organisation internally and externally for the relevant people to know. Because the last thing you want is muddled reporting lines and, you know, not really supporting each other in unity to the organization. So being one voice to the organization and having clear roles, I think, is so important. and if there are any conflicts, doing them behind closed doors. So it's always one voice to the team and the organisation and having a mechanism for conflict resolution.

18:46And I mean, conflict resolution sounds quite serious, but I guess there will be times where there could be disagreement about the way to do things or what to do. And that's healthy. So in a healthy way of debating, having ways to understand, having ways to work out how they're going to work through perhaps those difficulties. And I actually think shared values is probably something that we may not talk about, but I think that's very important to talk about in how they go around things. And maybe even an understanding what is the timeline on this? I'm here to do this for this amount of time and being really clear around what that is.

19:29And there may be something, and there may be the next thing and the next thing, but really getting time-bounded projects that we all understand when we started them, when we're on the way and when we finish them and what a good outcome is. Yeah. And do you know what? It's really interesting because obviously a lot of this plays into consulting as well. So I'm a big believer. I think your point about you need to get on. I think people underestimate the importance of that because it's not, it's, and I, I have a thing where I try and match customer personalities and organization personalities to the, to the consultants that they work with.

20:06Cause I feel it's not when things are going well, that, that, that matters. You can kind of cope when things are going smoothly with somebody that maybe is a little, you don't get on with well, but as soon as you hit a challenging situation or a, like you said a conflict that's where it really comes into play and I find that's where you know that having somebody that I guess is on the same level as you and I like your concept about shared values is really important at that stage yes and I think it's really important for the incoming peer CFO CFO to have the back I've got your back of the individual there the CFO that they're reporting into, it's all about making them look good and developing them or easing the burden on them, developing their knowledge of the organization, or just making sure they get everything done that they need so that they can then, they're well-equipped to take that to the board and to move things forward.

21:08I really feel it is, it's so vital that that's one unit and we're there or whoever's there as a CFO, CFO to make them look good. Because most of these CFO, CFOs, they don't want that role. They have stepped away from that role, the main CFO's role, and they've chosen to work in a fractional CFO way. But the important bit is they know what it feels like and they know that everything often stops at their door. So they can be very empathetic and they can share strategies around, you know, around the project they're working on, but just around being that group CFO as well and how to, you know, thrive in that sort of role.

21:56And I think that's an interesting piece I just want to pick up with you. So there's an interesting trend at the moment with people, especially at the latter stages of their career, taking less stressful or less hierarchical roles within an organization, You know, using their experience to go be the number two instead of the number the one because they want the challenge, they want the work, but they don't perhaps want all of the responsibility and accountability that stop, you know, at that top level. How do you, you know, have you got any advice for people that may be working with people that are more experienced than them or have, you know, that are older than them or, you know, what's your advice for working with people where there's a perceived level of experience greater than your own?

22:41How do you access that whilst still being, I guess, in that authority figure within the organisation? Yeah, actually, I feel it's about being vulnerable. But and to do that, you have to feel safe to do that. Yet, I don't think it's so you're not going to get the most out of that individual if you're not open enough to receive the advice that they might be able to give. So it's about the relationship again and the communication. If it's very clear that that individual that's mentoring you or helping you doesn't want your role, you shouldn't feel threatened. They're there to make you look good. So then it's about being prepared to be vulnerable and open with that individual.

23:28And that's where I think the magic can really happen because then you can get a real transfer of knowledge, of experience. experience they're on the end of the phone you've always got someone that you could call and I actually think that's so liberating and nothing feels quite so bad or quite so stressful when you've got that outlet and someone there who can empathize and understand and give you practical real strategies that have worked in the past but you're never going to get to that point if you don't get to that level of relationship between the two that enables you to put the whole your whole cards on the table because if you're not open enough, you're not going to get the value.

24:08So, and I think there's real strength in being vulnerable. And the thing is, the beauty of this is that you can be vulnerable in that relationship and then show up with strength and confidence to the organization that you're working in, which I think enables them to feel confident around following you as that leader. So, let's just talk about the organization perception, right because you know and i'm you know i think i can speak for most cfos especially if you're a new cfo saying actually i want to bring another cfo in to help me do my job you know that that that in itself is a difficult conversation as a brave person let's be open to do to do that and to read to be willing to talk about where they feel like they either haven't got capacity or gaps because i think i think i don't know whether it's a cfo piece but we you know they don't like to show weakness.

25:03They like to be that voice of authority, that safe pair of hands for the organization. So how do you balance that with going, actually here we need a resource? Yes. So I think there's a couple of scenarios. There's some scenarios where the workload is so vast that it is completely understandable to bring extra resource in. And I think that's an easier case because, as I said, 44 acquisitions. Well, I don't think anyone is going to get that done. So that's an easy step into it. However, if it's not so obvious like that, yet the CFO feels they need support because either they feel they've got too much to do or perhaps they don't have those skills and they're feeling a bit vulnerable in that space.

25:48I think potentially framing it, not as that you can't cope because I don't think that's going to instill confidence in the organization, but more around strategic scaling in the organization. So it's the business complexity has outgrown the capacity of just a single lens, or perhaps this is about bringing in more capability to accelerate delivery. So it's selling it as, which exactly is, something beneficial to the organization rather than I can't cope. What I have seen incidentally is that there have been COOs and CEOs that have come forward to say that they think their CFO needs help. So it's maybe, and then it's a delicate conversation, but then again, I guess they're beframing it in, there's so much to do, let's make sure.

26:44I think we've got to get away from, and I think it's a bigger issue, I think we've got to get away from expecting one individual whatever role they're in, CEO, CEO, C-suite level, one individual to hold everything. And we're seeing more co-CEOs coming into organizations. If you look at a lot of the big tech players, Spotify, Netflix, Oracle, they've all got co-CEOs or have had co-CEOs because I think they're beginning to realize that with clear division of duties, two heads are better than one more lenses better perspective wider perspectives more capability etc so I feel the team approach is actually something that the future of executive work will demand in the future so I think we're at the bleeding edge of that now and it is a bit you know it can be a bit scary or to to broach that conversation but I think the way to do it is through the added value that it can bring to everyone.

27:52And I think that's the way to go while it's still new to do it that way. But I do understand, put forward the wrong way, it can look like, you know, you're not good enough, which, you know, is always what us as humans feel, you know, is something that holds us back. yeah and I think like with all of these things you know I think when you you know you when you're clear about the objectives and what it's going to take to achieve something you know ultimately the business wants you to achieve a goal and and I think that's the really key piece if you're saying I think being clear that what you're asking for is because of the the challenge that the business is put in front of you versus, like you say, a weakness in them as an individual.

28:46It's, this is what you've given me. This is, you know, I'm determined to deliver on this and this is how we're going to do it. I think it's really important and interesting piece. You know, I think we get so worried about sometimes about how we're perceived that we move away from that focus on what we're trying to achieve, which is always interesting. Absolutely. And I think, you know, look, the best top athletes all have coaches. You know, it's absolutely a learning mindset, a development mindset. Most top C-suite individuals in large organizations will have executive coaches. And that is becoming more and more normalized.

29:26Where what I see as the the slight difference with a CFO's CFO is they're not just, they may do some coaching if you need that development, but they're also going to do some delivery. And I think that's quite important because we are asking a lot of our CFOs going forward. The CFO's role now today has expanded hugely in the last 5, 10, 15 years. And we're still operating that old model of one individual sitting in one seat to hold a whole function and expecting them to be the technical master expert on the function and be a communicator, a storyteller, a narrative, someone who holds the narrative around investment and manage a team and be an expert on all the different technology advancements that we've made.

30:24I mean, the roles just expanded beyond our, you know, beyond our knowledge and what we would have foreseen back then. So, and it's incredibly risky, I think, from an organization's point of view to expect one individual to hold absolutely everything. So I think it's a whole mindset shift, change around how we run our C-suite. And this is just a, you know, one facet of that. of a way to help us. And certainly some of the CFOs I've spoken to recently as well, they've been bought in normally for a particular purpose. You kind of get like those project-based CFOs, you get those that are steadying the ship, those that are running a already steady ship, and those that are, like you say, expecting to come on board to own an M &A strategy or something else.

31:13So there's always going to be a reason that you were chosen. But like you say, there's always the day job behind that as well. So finding that balance is so important. And I know I am really genuinely excited to say for all of our listeners that this is part of an initial series. So Sarah and the team at the CFO Centre have been very kind enough to share some of their CFOs and their experience with us. So we're actually going to be doing a series of specialist interviews with individuals that have done a particular skill set or a particular area of focus so that everyone can can learn and benefit from some of those skills.

31:48So that's, that's part of our CFO, CFO series, which will be coming shortly on the CFO 4.0 podcast. So, so just to, to wrap it up, Sarah, you know, I guess let's, let's go back to where we started and let's, let's give our top, your top tips for, you know, knowing what to delegate and how to delegate it well. Yes. So firstly, I would be thinking, you know, the CFO is the orchestrator. They need to be staying ahead of the numbers and creating clear ownership around the deliverability of the outcomes that will feed into those numbers. So it's one owner. I think that's so important around the team.

32:30Using strengths intentionally and knowing where your gaps are. So to expand the team or bring in specialists or develop the team, escalate early because, you know, we'd much rather know if something wasn't going to get delivered, wouldn't we, beforehand rather than after the event. And I guess it's about, you know, making finance the voice of foresight in the organization. So, So, you know, CFOs are about seeing what's coming, not about what's just happened. So I would say is proactively partnering with the rest of the organization through that structure. Fantastic. Of course. So if any of our CFOs listening would like to learn more about, obviously, yourself and the concept of a CFO, CFO, where is the best place to sort of learn more about that?

33:30So I think if you connect on LinkedIn through the website of thecfocenter.com or myself, just come and find me. We're always happy to have a conversation. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today on the CFO 4.0 podcast. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please do reach out to me on LinkedIn or leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. because the more you share, the more people get to benefit from the podcast. And that also gives me a great way to decide on which topics to focus on for the future. So thank you so much, Sarah, for joining.

34:11And we'll see you next time on the CFO 4.2 podcast. Thank you.

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