281. CFO Stories | with The UK's Youngest CFO on Building Trust, Not Just Teams with Sophia Levell FCCA

0:00Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary, and with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition, to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

0:47Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. With me today is a special guest. I think what we think one of the youngest CFOs in the UK. I'm really excited to say we've got Sophia Lavelle, who is the CFO of Access Fertility, joining me on today's show. So welcome, Sophia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to being here. So you've got the title of the UK's youngest CFO. So let's just start with what was your journey into the role? so I think I always knew I wanted to be an accountant from a really young age um basically this one day I went to pwc offices when I was at college and I remember walking through the door I'm thinking I'm going to run this office one day um so I actually dropped out of college and just started working and did my um finance studies um and I was just so desperate to do it as fast as I could I would sit like two exams every quarter um all first time passes and then I would move jobs quite quick as well if I felt like I wasn't progressing so in summary that was sort of the journey to get there was just like determination to be the best CFO and accountant I could be and then before I knew it I was 28 and a CFO and I was like wow okay what now and tell me a little bit about you know that transition I guess from like finance operator to CFO how did you see that transition I think one of the main things was also my environment at the time so I grew up originally in Birmingham I'm London based now but in Birmingham and in Birmingham I would say commerciality isn't really taught or entrepreneurial like it isn't really talk spoke about but I was very lucky I had an opportunity just after I became sort of like a finance director to work in a firm where I worked alongside the CEO and the founder and they really opened my eyes up to the strategic parts of a business more and it was from there I saw a CFO is where I'm meant to be because I obviously have the commercial financial knowledge behind me and this is the route I need to go down.

3:04And it was that role that allowed me to transition from that. I think if you don't have exposure to the board and almost like the brain of the people running the business, it's quite hard to transition because it's like self-learning, but you learn so much from other people. I would definitely recommend a mentor or someone like that who sits at that level to teach you how to transition. tell us a little bit about those key learnings during that time what I guess how how did it change how you operate and how you think about things having that exposure to that sort of top level c-suite strategy piece I think for me uh sort of the main lessons were you know I think when you're an operator it's easy to think that oh my gosh this is like a really big deal and it's change everything but it doesn't you have to see things from a much bigger view so it's almost like don't sweat the small stuff um but you need it made me think that you do need operators so i have always known i'm not a really good operator like i've got adhd my admin is really bad so i was always very like creative um and it taught me that the biggest asset is the staff you have below you to then be able to do that work for you.

4:25And just other things, I guess. It's like you're not looking tomorrow. You're looking five years ahead and how you're going to get there. And the biggest thing is probably like mitigating risk, the risk around things as a business, whether that be authoritative risk or market risk. They're things you don't see or think about as an operator. So they're probably not the biggest lessons as being transitioning across. And tell me a little bit about, I guess, that team aspect to it, because you obviously mentioned that you find a team that is complementary, I guess, to your skills. How do you think about building out that team?

5:05Well, I would definitely say I learned the hard way. When I first started managing staff, I would hire staff that were exactly like me. It was almost like the personality hires. I'd be like, oh my gosh, you got on with this person so well. We're going to have such a good time. We're going to bounce off each other. But really, I wasn't very good at micromanaging those people that probably needed micromanaging. I was always a bit more step back because that's how I'd always sort of been managed. And then I found that things got messy and things got missed. And obviously, I'm completely accountable for that.

5:38So then when I stepped into teams where I had operators, even if they weren't the biggest personality, they got the job done and made my life easier. easier. And obviously, I then brought them a different perspective of how they can view things. So that's sort of what I really look for now is someone who can actually just do the job. Obviously, and a nice person. I think that's probably the main thing when building out a team. And that's an interesting piece about management style. So when you're bringing people on, has it changed? Has that changed how you evaluate how they like to be managed?

6:14Because it's an interesting piece isn't it everyone manages slightly differently so how much of that actually do you talk about in your recruitment process um a lot because it's very very important i i wouldn't say i'm very good at micromanaging because one of my weaknesses is organization um so i'm good at what they do i do but obviously it's quite or it can be quite organized chaos It's like I need someone to manage me in that way and say, this is like we need to get this ticked off or this tax paid or whatnot. So if I'm going to hire someone who I know I'm going to have to micromanage, it just isn't a good fit.

6:55So it's just, yeah, I definitely am. And I'm open about that on interviews, but I've done so many interviews, you can sort of tell. It's usually the people who need to micromanage are usually the big personalities. So that's sort of what I've found so far. Yeah. And what else, you know, when you're evaluating, I guess, cultural fit for you in the team? What are some of the things that you think about? Someone who is going to get on with the team. I think different roles require different skill sets and different personalities. I would never hire maybe people with an ego just because I think that might rub off wrong on other people.

7:35I mean, we've all got an ego, but I'm just very careful. and then but obviously an ego works brilliant if you're in sales but it's like it's just managing yeah that personalities really and if I have a team who is going to fit in the team because you don't want someone to come into the team and completely disrupt them um so yeah it's sort of managing managing that as well and obviously stepping up into managing a team like I always you know very often the conversations I have on the podcast is like actually managing a team can be incredibly difficult whilst trying to step into your new role as a CFO at FD.

8:13You know, how do you think, you know, why do you think you've been successful in terms of managing the team? What lessons do you learn along the way? I would create almost a door to you. So what I mean by that is you have a team leader of the team because it's very hard if you have 10 staff and do your 20 staff directly and do you your full-time job is managing people managing holidays managing sickness which isn't really a part of your role and can take so much time so my what I always try and do is bring in the people one level below me who can deal with that and manage that stuff and it's usually really good because it also creates a pathway for progression within the different teams because you never want people to think they've hit a ceiling and then move on.

9:02So it's just creating structure in those teams to make your life easier. And, you know, there's people who are better at managing individual teams like that than I am because I don't have the time to. So, but always make sure you're still always available to people. If they will need to come and ask you questions, that's obviously non-negotiable. But yeah, that's probably the way I found it best to do it for me. And in terms of, you know, So what do you think one of the, you know, when it comes to what you've achieved, what do you say are your biggest successes? What are you most proud of? I think just becoming a CFO so young.

9:38I always knew I was ahead of the curve when I was studying, when I was progressing through my career. Like I remember looking at my friends around me and none of them were even working by the time I was sort of becoming like a finance manager and stuff like that. So I'm really proud of that. And it probably wasn't until I actually became a CFO that I realized how well I'd done. Because when you're in the journey, you're just pushing for the next thing. Next thing, you don't look back. And it was actually other people who would say to me, oh, my gosh, you're so young. Oh, my gosh, you're so young.

10:10But obviously, it's your normality, I guess. When I look back, I am really proud of that. And then my ACCA journey, I did it really, really fast. And like with all first-time passes, I mean, I worked very, very hard. came up a social life for 18 months but very proud of that as well and to us I'm just very proud about the relationships I've made and I wouldn't say there's probably anyone in business that I've never not gone with um and I would hope that I've left a really good reputation everywhere I've gone so that's always something to be proud of that people would talk highly of you in rooms that you're not in.

10:45Tell me a little bit about how you see the CFO role what what do you think is important when assessing whether somebody's doing a good job as a CFO? I think the first thing is if you talk to the CEO and what they know about the business and what if what they think they know is true because if they've got it slightly wrong then you know that the communication between the CFO and the CEO isn't that great. I think the pressure on being a CFO is really hard because if the business isn't going well you're the first person that gets looked at and is like what what you know what is really going on what the hell is going on here what are you doing and it's funny because obviously it's not your fault personally if things are happening um so that's probably the first thing I look at is how do the other SLT or SMT see the business um and then also just the people then below them what do they feel is going on do they know what the CFO is doing because I've gone into roles where CFOs have exited prior to me and the staff will say, well, we didn't know what they did.

11:51And I think that's not good either because then your team doesn't know what they're working towards. So I think they're the telltale signs of someone who isn't doing the job as best they can. So let's explore that a little bit more because there's two really good points in there. So firstly, that relationship with the CEO, how much visibility do they have into how well the organization's performing and then the second piece is that comms piece within the team so we're going to start with the second bit first and then we'll roll back around so tell me a little bit about what good comms is with your finance team how do you make sure that that information is flowing in the right direction what what how do you approach that so I in practical terms will sit down with my team uh once or twice a week and tell them one what I'm working on and ask them what they're working on as a team, even though I have individual chats as well.

12:46Because I think it's important that they know what you're doing, because there can sometimes be this perception of people on a C-suite, nobody knows what they do. They just might see them going out often or doing things. And you don't want to create that resentment where the team think that you're not working as hard as what they are. And it's also important, one, for their progression, to know what you're working on so they could aspire to do it or whatnot and they also know what to help you with if I tell the team I'm working on x y and z usually I then have the team will randomly send me messages or come and see me and say oh I was looking into this and it might help you with this so it's just things like that that really yeah and and I guess in terms of that piece does that is it you know how do you structure those meetings so that you get the relevant information across you know have you got a particular format that you use for those regular updates um I think it's the way I do it is I just sort of go in list what I'm working on ask questions to the team oh has this been done has that been done and then open the floor to them and say what are you doing what do you need my help with and we sort of go around and talk about it but I also find on those calls as well the team will talk to each other um and I they I know they talk to each other anyway but sometimes they're like oh actually I need to ask about this I need to ask about that um so it's that sort of yeah I would say how I structure the call yeah and you know when you think about how you prioritize what the team because it's working on because that can be one of the challenges working at that c-suite level is there's always a billion things that need to be worked on um how do you priority decide on what should be the priorities for this week how do you balance i guess the strategic piece and moving that forwards with making sure that the day job is getting done um well from the day job perspective i'm very very lucky i have a very very good team um so i know that the day job is getting done i'm probably almost the issue there where they're emailing me like sphere can you just sign this up and then chase that so then when we get on those calls they're like yeah I'm waiting for you actually um but the the day-to-day is um I'd like like to say if you hire well um you are you are going to be blessed you're going to be fine from the strategic perspective I would say well who's asking one who's asking for the work and what's the result of the work it's always good to look at quick wins so what could I change right now or do right now that's not going to take me too long but it's going to just move the business forward or help the board understand something more at that point in time but I guess it is just sort of what is the board after or any immediate threats are quite obvious obviously get rid of those as fast as you can but yeah but I find it's constant with strategic work it's sort of like a project after a project after a project that's sort of how it seems to roll unless obviously things just throw themselves up um and i find with finance when you tell someone something like the c-suite or the board oh i've just found out this it's it's like oh my gosh oh my gosh we need to do something on it right now people are very reactive to finance it doesn't always have to be like that and then you find that everything seems to rush straight away then it settles down um so i would say it's sort of managing that as well and sort of reiterating with the board of the c-suite we don't have to act on this right now i'm just letting you know sort of what's going on um but yeah but the main thing i would say is don't start a new project or the old one's finished or don't start something new until you finish something else you will have like 80 projects done across everything and that's uh that's not great and that's an interesting piece about almost managing the board reaction right um tell us a little bit about how you approach communicating bad news into the ceo and the board you know something comes up you find something how do you i guess de-escalate to give yourself that time to address the issue um so first of all i find out what the issue is and how it has become an issue because no matter if it's a certain individual's fault within my team or within the business I'm accountable and I expect that to be on me as a C-suite member that I take the brunt of what's happening in the team.

17:33I would say honesty is key it is and it is scary because sometimes I've had to go to the board and be like, I've made a mistake or I've missed this. And obviously you're sitting there thinking, oh my God, this is the worst thing in the world. I'm going to get fired. Nobody's going to want to talk, like communicate with me anymore. They're going to think I'm not good at my job. But it isn't like that at all. Like from day one, if you are constantly being honest with what is going on, what you're seeing, when these problems come up, because they know you care, because you've been managing problems and being honest about hard things since the day you started, they take it a lot better.

18:11I think it's the, they don't really know what you're doing. They think you're doing a good job. You're sort of giving them like wishy-washy answers or telling them what they want to hear. And then something really bad hits the fan. Then they're like, well, what have you been doing this whole time to miss that? But if you're constantly in communication, then I think you just can't go wrong. I mean, I communicate to my COO and CEO over the tiniest, tiniest little things. we'll just talk about it so it's everyone across the c-suite knows what's going on all the time and then if there is something major that comes up it's sort of major to all of us not just one knew about it and was hiding it I think as long as you've got trust in a business or in any relationship you you're absolutely fine.

18:55And is there a way that you communicate that have you found I guess different boards need information given in different ways you know how do you find the balance between waiting for a board meeting versus maybe ad hoc communications in between um so honestly I've worked in quite a few businesses at that level and they're all different um right now I have a really really good relationship with our CEO and COO so we're constantly the three of us constantly talking um and I found that really beneficial I enjoy it more and also it makes them if they think of something that could potentially be finance related and I might have to look into they communicate it with me straight away as well rather sitting on it or trying to do it themselves but I've also worked in in boards where or c-suites where I haven't had great communication or the c-suite will talk without myself and then that's really hard then um so yeah i would say that's sort of like it's just trying to balance the different relationships across different boards and but my advice from learning all that would be just to get the relationship going straight away and and almost insert yourself into conversations because you need to tell them how important it is but you know uh everything that's going on because a lot of people don't think things are relative or relevant sorry to finance but of course everything is relevant to finance because I'm going to see it wash for the numbers eventually no matter what decision you make so it's just um yeah being a bit bossy being a bit assertive and being like no I need to be in this room and have these conversations you mentioned you had a challenge with a particular you know c-suite where they weren't they were having conversations outside of finance did you manage to resolve that or did that did you manage to get to a point where they were bringing you in and if so how did you do it yes I did it was um that just happened to be quite a young c-suite they're all relatively young so they were probably inexperienced in being the c-suite themselves as well um which is completely fair enough that they they were in that situation um I think it's just constant communication and it's also you can't just have one line into the c-suite as in one um one person you keep going through you need to build the relationships with all of them it's almost like chip at them away at all of them individually and then they'll bring you in but it is um it's sort of showing them the consequences of what happens when you're not involved because when you're saying well this is happening but I didn't know it was happening but you knew it was happening like two months ago then it ultimately everyone should be looking at themselves and at the cc as a whole as how best to to do it um but I think like for me like self-reflection and self-teaching is very important like you should always look at your weaknesses and you know things aren't going right in a relationship well aren't they going right um it should fall on everyone as a as a c-suite and to be honest just sit them all down and say look what is going on here we need to fix this um so yeah just being assertive again and direct to the point i think is how i did some of that and i think sometimes that could be hard though you know and I would say what's amazing is obviously you've done that at such a young age as well so you know where did that confidence come from is that always is that just who you are underneath or is that something you've had to develop that assertiveness and that directness um to be honest I think I remember my dad just always described me as a child as someone who couldn't be penned in um so like I grew up racing professional motocross so I had motocross coaches and they were telling what to do and I'd be like I'm not doing that like my dad used to say you were absolutely crazy um but ultimately I did do it in the end and then I think when that sort of transitioned into business it was probably sort of like a naivety that helped as well for a blessing or a curse in the way of I would back chat people as it as because I started working when I was 16 and 17 that you cannot talk to people like that but I would be like you're why are you telling me to do that and now I'm the c-suite and I'm like an accounts assistant and I think it was that naivety that helped me be assertive and then I just sort of managed to define it and tidy it up as I got older to help benefit me because I got into quite a bit of trouble when I was younger working in firms I mean never to the point of being sacked but you know people would say Sophia you can't talk to people like that but it is that naivety of actually not understanding how office culture works but then I think the benefit was because I was good at my job I'm pushing to be better I could get away with it in the way of being like well she's being honest she's giving us her thoughts and you know she's really intelligent and we should sort of listen but you're trying to sort of build that up at the same time as sort of getting respect and and whatnot um but yeah that's sort of how I would say it just started with me being a naive 17 year old thinking oh I can just talk to people how I want and then just having to fine-tune it to actually be in a respectable way.

24:12So it sounds like some of that is just part of who you are but actually the interesting is a bit about you tidying you use the phrase tidying that up so tell me I guess about your journey of almost developing yourself to the you know to to have those conversations but in the right way so tell me a little bit about how you approach that. I guess the stories behind it are almost like you obviously learn when they haven't worked when you've approached someone a certain way and they've always been like whoa you can't talk to me like that even even as I have got older um there are no times when you quite clash with someone and it's and it's easy when you're you're younger to be or when you have an ego to be quite defensive and be like well no I'm right because I think if you think you're you've got a good heart but you think, well, it doesn't matter how I'm asking you the question because I know I've got no bad intention behind it.

25:04But actually, I think as I just became, I maybe clashed with people more or not as much. I just hated that idea. I'd go home on an evening and think, oh, my gosh, that was a really bad conversation. Like, why doesn't this person like me and want to talk to me? I was like, it's actually on me to change. And it is sort of, and I do think that comes naturally as you get older as well. like when you get into your later 20s, you are much better at managing other people's emotions because, you know, you're also dealing with people that can be like you who might have a bit of an ego. And then it's like, well, if they were talking to me like that, how would I react?

25:43So it's sort of letting people do their way and just sort of working around it because ultimately, as much as I hate this, there is a game that you have to play. um and if it means um backing down for a moment you have to you have to do it um so that's sort of what I would what I would say is how I managed to do it and like where that sort of came from yeah and I think it's interesting because yeah it's it's I guess about figuring out where your strengths are and not taking that strength into overdrive figuring out like you say when to back off when to push when to when when to do so let's talk about that in context of the CEO role because obviously you said you know we talked about it's so important to have that great comms and that relationship with the the CEO have you always had great relationships with the CEO or is that taking work to develop over time to be honest I've always had great relationships with CEOs um it was just that that one contract I was in where I really struggled and it's because and I think it's because they were they were young um and I so we probably all had egos in the room and we all we were all sort of like young and didn't know what we were doing well I mean I probably had more experience on the C-suite of knew what I was doing but it was just that's probably the only time I actually ever struggled with it um no and like I'm you know I'm very open about that like these aren't things on I didn't have a perfect linear career but it was definitely important to find the businesses that worked for me as much as I worked for them it's I guess in like personal relationships where you don't get on with everyone that's just natural um but yeah I've always gone very well with the CEOs I honestly think with any sort of founder or CEOs or board if they can see you care that is the most important thing like if they can see that you know if something did hit the fan that you would put in the time to help fix it I think that is all that people want and need um because I if I was a you know a founder and a CEO that's all if that's all I would want as well just someone who would put the time into and you see that you really care about your business yeah and tell me a bit about I guess how you build that relationship when you go into a new organization because obviously you like to think that you've aced the interview and so there's a there's a good starting point but how do you get to that really strong CEO relationship quickly um I would definitely outline within the first you know almost in your first week sit down with the CEO and say what do you want out of me in this amount of time and then set expectations that way um I know when I came into this role um originally it was it was on a contract and I'm permanent now because we just we did actually get on so well but it was very much like when we've got six months this is what we think we can achieve to do it and and you know if things change you think actually we're not going to hit that just communicate with that I just think it's all about managing expectations from both ends and you have to be honest you know on day one if they say we want this doing if it's going to take longer than anticipated or it's not that easy you have to say okay that's fine but these are the obstacles you might face along the way you have to cover your own back and it's just about having the honest honest conversation but like I say if you can do the quick wins though at the same time the things that don't take long but they just help fix things And that might be just having better sight of data or things like that or helping them understand the business a little bit more.

29:26Little things like that will help go a long way because at least they see you're doing something, even if you're not right now being able to tick off the big tasks they need you to do. And what does that, you know, how much, what do you think about when you're first going into role? Like how much due diligence do you do on a new organisation before you step into it? a lot especially now as I've got older because I've obviously been in businesses where I haven't enjoyed or haven't quite gone with them or industries I'm very lucky because I started contracting very young and I jumped around a lot at the start of my career I've seen a lot of different industries so I sort of know which industries I like and want to go into so that's sort of like the first step is would I want to work in this industry then it's like how is the business performing um what what are the c-suite like when you're on calls with them um that to me because you're when anyone is going for an interview never forget that you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you if you don't like something or something feels off don't go for the role because they if they like you they will sell you to get on board and the reality is very very different when you get in to the role i like i remember this one time I had an interview and I went for the role and I thought this is great and then on my first day the CEO came and sat next to me and looked over my shoulder at what I was doing and I personally hate something like that I think oh gosh like get off my back it's a micromanager you have to trust me and but on the obviously in the interview they never came across that they would be like that so it's just being aware of just being able to spot things in people's personalities and characters um one thing i love to want interviews ask them what they do in like their spare time or what they enjoy doing outside of work or why they've got to where they've got to because then you start being able to put them together as a person and think do i want to spend you know nine hours a day with this person because ultimately you probably spend more time with them than you do anyone else so it's just important to make sure you're gonna get on with them well and you know what advice do you have for for somebody maybe stepping up from either a finance an FD or an FC role, and they're looking for that first CFO role, what advice would you give them?

31:41I would say, even if you don't feel ready, just do it. I think we are our own worst sort of critics. I remember I've gone into roles thinking, I don't know if I can do this role. This is way too advanced for what I am right now. But just do it and learn on the job. And don't be scared to ask questions. And, you know, if you go into a role and you don't know something, do not be scared to ask the CEO, well, how does this work? I don't quite understand. I mean, like when I first go into a team and a C-suite, I'm asking usually my team who I manage, well, how does this work? How do you do this? And it's dropping the ego and being like, I'm going to push myself to do this and not be scared to ask questions and saying, oh, I don't know, but I'm going to look into that for you.

32:29Brilliant. and so well thank you so much Sophia it's been great to understand your challenges if you want to learn more about you and your journey where is the best place to find you um definitely LinkedIn I am yeah I'm probably most social on LinkedIn than any other social platform because I'm a complete business nerd so yeah definitely definitely LinkedIn brilliant and I just want to say a massive thank you Sophia for taking the time to come on the podcast and share your journey and hopefully it'll be an inspiration to others looking to take up that CFO role young as well. So thank you so much.

33:06No, no, thank you. I've really, really enjoyed it. And like you said, I hope it helps other people progress in their careers and get to where they want to. Brilliant. So if you've enjoyed this episode, then of course, please do like, share or leave us a comment on your podcast platform of choice. And if you've got further questions or follow ups that you feel like I should have asked, then please do message me on LinkedIn. I'm always looking for inspiration and advice for the next podcast episode we do. So thanks so much for listening, guys. And we'll see you next time on the CFO for Pluto podcast.

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