440 | Past Failure Does Not Define Future Success | Amy Minkley

25:14And then they paid us each$10 ,000 a year. So I did that. And my roommate was awesome. I mean, she was one of my best friends. And we had a four bedroom, four bath place with marble floors, really big. So it was nice to be able to house hack essentially for 10 years and not only have rent free, but somehow benefit also beyond that. Right. That's so cool. Yeah. I think for the many, many teachers out there listening to this podcast, if you're looking for an adventure, these international schools can be a real, real way to go about that. So go back and listen to episode 109. I think that's, that's a good way.

25:48But Amy, do you have any other like just super quick tips on like how somebody could even get the ball rolling? Like what would be the first step someone would want to take if they were thinking about international teaching? Yeah, I would recommend that they go to a search associates job fair. And there's a couple of different job fairs, but that's kind of the biggest one. And I think there's one in Boston every year. There's one in Bangkok every year. There's several all throughout the world. But I think the Boston one's the main one in the U.S. Okay. Yeah. And beyond just international school teachers, I'd recommend listeners, if they are interested in working abroad, and if that is something that they can look into for their own profession, it may be that there is an expat contract somewhere in the world that would pay better, even if you're not a teacher.

26:32So, you know, I met a lot of cool people in India working at the UN or embassies or, you know, aid organizations in Singapore, a lot of finance people. So it's worth looking into if it's something that interests your listener. Like, could this job be abroad or could I find a way for my company to send me abroad or work for another company? Because those expat packages can be very nice. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I know my brother-in-law has a finance job at a massive corporation and he does that. They've gone abroad multiple times to Venezuela, to South Africa, to England, and gone for a couple of years at a time.

27:05It's just so cool. And then not to mention, nowadays, with work from home and remote working, well, you're not really geolocated anymore. It truly doesn't matter. So maybe you could make your own travel abroad plan in the confines of your current job. Obviously, this is something you have to do research on. But I think what you're painting the picture of is just start thinking about it. Start asking, how can you do this? This is an adventure. And it's like you said, being true to yourself. And I do want to get back to that because I think being true to yourself for you ultimately took you back to Bali.

27:38And that's where your life predominantly is now. But before we get there, you said something very much in passing that I'd heard one other time, but I don't know if it's the same thing we're talking about here, but you said fear setting. I'd love if you could dive into that because I suspect that piqued the interest of a bunch of people. Yeah, I think for so much of my life, I've been dominated by what if this happens? What if that happens? And just imagining all the worst case scenarios. And, you know, actually sitting down and allowing myself to go into that fear and journaling through that process.

28:12And, you know, just the same thing with when I quit my job, you know, what if the market crashed, and inflation goes really sky high, and I have a health issue, and my partner has a health issue. And, you know, what if all of these things happened and what if they all happened at the same time, you know, and allowing yourself to kind of sit in that, you know, because it's highly unlikely that all of those things would happen at the same time. But what if they did, you know, what would I do, you know, now that I don't work at international schools anymore? Well, I would probably maybe go back and get another international school job again, which I could do.

28:47I have the community, I have the network, and I do like teaching. And I did finally figure out how to balance it more at the end of Bangkok. I could do that, or I could build a business, or I could find ways to support myself. I have the skills, I have the network, I have the motivation to do that. And then it's fun to allow myself, once I've done that fierce setting and really allow myself to journal through that and think through all the worst case scenarios to think about, what if it's actually better than I imagined? Of course, I could handle one or two things bad going wrong, but what if it's better than I could envision?

29:23And opening myself up to possibility and opportunity. And often I find all the things I fear never happen. And in fact, it turns out better than what I imagined. So it's allowing myself to sit with that discomfort and then see the other side of it too. Yeah, that is beautiful. And it's so important. And I think a lot of us aren't even aware of this as a concept, but I know I've heard it also in the realm of stoic philosophy where these fear setting of, hey, what is the worst that could happen? And it's something to the effect of, I'm paraphrasing horribly here, but like Marcus Aurelius, the most powerful person in the world and imagining himself as, okay, if I've lost everything, what would it actually be like?

30:03What would it be like to walk the streets and just actually picturing yourself? And again, I'm paraphrasing almost certainly incorrectly there, but that's the concept of what if that thing that I fear the worst actually isn't all that bad? Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I mean, Seneca talks about this too, you know, about negative visualizations. And, you know, the Stoic philosophers also talk about really visualizing, you know, losing, like you said, like losing everything and even your own death, you know, visualizing your own death and doing, I mean, I did a lot of death meditations in the past too, but there is something about that, that kind of brings into your awareness, like what you have to be grateful for.

30:42Yes. And the things that we just, they fade into the background of our lives of abundance. And you're not grateful really on a conscious level of all the remarkable things you have in your life. Most of us aren't right. I mean, who is consciously grateful for the hundreds, thousands of conveniences and remarkable advances that we benefit from every single day. You think about if you could be placed at any time in human history, you'd be placed now, Almost undoubtedly. And yet, when you turn on the news, it's doom and gloom. People thinking the world's going to end, complaining about the Fed and taxes and all this other nonsense.

31:20But you do the look outside test, which is kind of something I've coined. You look outside and the world is pretty wonderful. You look through your regular day. The world is pretty wonderful for most of us, right? That's not to say there's not suffering. That's not to say there's not bad things going on in the world. I'm not a fool. I'm not naive. But for the vast majority of us, this is quite literally the best time in human history to be living. Hard stop, end of story, no question about it. And yet we lose sight of that. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I feel like, you know, there is so much value in actually contemplating the gratitude, but also contemplating like the end of our life, you know, and I know that sounds scary to some people.

32:00But like when we contemplate the end of our life, it helps us to get really clear about our values. You think about Doc G, right? And earn and invest and his work as a hospice doctor and talking to people who are dying. And I just love hearing, you know, all of his wisdom about, you know, what do people really reflect on and value at the end of their life? And if I can think about that now and then live more intentionally, I am really living with more gratitude, like you said, and looking outside and appreciating all the things that I have, I have in my life. It is a wonderful time to be alive.

32:32Yeah. And then even kind of bringing it back to the micro of FI, which is, okay, again, using the same concept of the fear setting, what's the worst that would happen? And I'm going to go two for two on my paraphrasing horribly here and hopefully remembering who said this, but I believe it was Joel from FI 180 way back in 2017 on our podcast. And he talked about what's the absolute worst thing that could happen if you reach FI or you proclaim that you've reached FI and you even stop working, right? You're bringing in no income and things go horribly wrong. And I'm using that dripping with sarcasm in air quotes, horribly wrong.

33:10Well, you go back to work. And as he said, paraphrase, your worst case scenario is everybody else's every day. Right. Right. So that's if it goes horribly awry. And even in that ridiculous scenario that is so unlikely, you still are so much better off than you would have been had you not pursued financial independence. Because undoubtedly, things going catastrophically wrong still means you're probably at 80 % of your fine number or 90%. That's what's so silly about this is you're still wildly wealthy in that scenario. You have so much power and autonomy that you simply would not have had if you were living paycheck to paycheck all those years, right?

33:51So it is unquestionably the right path. And this is what I say to people who ask me, is five for everybody? I think my answer clearly is yes, with the caveat that I, again, am not naive enough to say that it is not any harder for someone making$20 ,000 or$30 ,000 a year than someone making a million dollars a year. Obviously, it's easier for somebody making a million dollars a year. But I think all of us, no matter who we are, where we are, can benefit from pursuing financial independence because any little bit of power that we can reclaim in our lives by saving money, by not having like Amy, we're talking about, both of us have experienced significant stress because of finances, obviously in different ways, but we've all experienced it in different ways.

34:39And to any stress mitigation of having that first$500 saved up,$1 ,000 saved up, your life is dramatically better. And I think that it's very easy to lose sight of these things because we think only about what's that perfect success story with the perfect 4 % safe withdrawal and nothing went wrong. But that's not real life. It just isn't. But yet you're still a success. And I think that's what I'd love for us to each internalize in our own heads and to get across to the audience and the community at large is you start accruing benefit on your path to financial independence on day one. Yeah, you do.

35:19You have so many more choices. The minute you pay off your debt, you have a lot more options. The minute you have your emergency funds saved up, more options. By the time you've got your first hundred thousand, more options. So it's nice to have these little milestones along the path to FI. And all along the way, you are buying yourself more choices and more freedom. So, you know, I just encourage listeners to no matter where they are in their journey, you know, for listeners who feel like, you know, and I know I have friends like this and people in my family like this who feel like I didn't start.

35:51I waited too late. And they have this story about that. But no matter where you are starting today, just letting that go and looking at what can I do now? And you can't control what happened in the past, but you You can change your future and what that looks like. And so, you know, I'm excited because I feel like this community is about so much more than money. It's about time freedom and, you know, life freedom and optimization and really living our one life well. Oh, I love that. Living our one life well. That is, man. I mean, it sounds trite. No, it doesn't sound trite, Amy. You know, I guess I feel like I've lived that, you know, because for most of my life and what I realized in that period of time when I was in Bangkok and having a lot of depression and anxiety.

36:33And I started listening to Chooseify and then I learned about Your Money or Your Life. And that book was kind of an aha moment for me because I realized my whole life, I've been choosing money. I haven't been choosing my life. If someone actually held a gun to my head and asked me that question, Your Money or Your Life, I would choose my life. But obviously, I'd never really done that in a lot of ways. So really, when we think about that one life and allow ourselves to kind of reflect on how do I want to live it? You know, and imagine that as if we're going back to what we're talking about earlier, you know, it is shorter than we realize.

37:08And I think as we age, we realize like, okay, you know, and I'm seeing my parents age right now. My dad just turned 83. So, you know, it's very fresh to me about living that one life intentionally. Yeah. And you talk about making that choice, your money or your life. And while it sounds like for many years, because of this scarcity mindset, you chose money from what I'm hearing. It sounds like you chose your life recently. And that goes back to the being true to yourself and ultimately ending back in Bali. And it's an amazing thing to see, to see that change, right? To see that dramatic shift and that realization that I was doing this for money.

37:52Even the leaving Bali, right? You left this place that you love so much to go to Bangkok, to break your contract, to finish it out, to all this stuff, and then to go back. And it's wild. And I'd love to hear you talk about maybe just about Bali, about being true to yourself, about how you knew that was the place for you. Yeah, I didn't really initially know that it was the place for me. I'd been there a dozen times. I lived in Singapore for six years. And even when I was living in Japan, I used to go down there. So I've been there a lot as a tourist and I had only seen the touristy things. And, you know, I was going to take that sabbatical year.

38:30I left India in 2017 and I was just passing through Bali and I was going to do this transformational course and it was only 10 days long. And that's really where I healed my relationship with my father and realized that I was ready to call in a partner. And I met my partner four days later, which was wild. So it's funny how you can be single for 16 years and then, you know, call in a partner. pretty quickly after. So yeah, it was once I decided to stay there and really sunk into the community of people that live there, the entrepreneurs, the digital nomads, the people who are there long term, and I stopped doing kind of the touristy things, I really found the community, I really realized, I don't want to travel fast anymore.

39:14And, you know, I was going to go to Africa and see the whole continent, you know, check places off my list. And really, what I love is a routine and I love community and I love deep conversations and that's hard to do on the road. And so I ended up staying and one year turned into two and I was super happy there. And so when, you know, after I went back to Bangkok, I was ready to go back and my partner and I, he's lived there for many years and he was also fired, but didn't know what fire was. So we have a beautiful life, you know, place in the rice fields, little ducks waddling through cranes flying across the rice fields.

39:48And I have a luxurious life. Like it's very affordable. I go to yoga every day. I go to lots of classes. I have lots of friends around me and a lot of really inspiring people. So it's, yeah, there's a lot of professional and personal growth opportunities every day. So I feel like, you know, my day is really full and it feels really meaningful. And there's a lot of people with a flexible schedule. So I don't feel lonely. Whereas I think maybe if I was fired in some suburban the U S I might feel like everybody's working around me. So I love that. I love that there's a lot of people that have time.

40:18And I got the idea, you know, when I was in Bangkok, because I knew I love Bali, and I was hearing about I was listening to choose if I and hearing about economy and camp by and all of those things. And so, you know, during that time in Bangkok, I got the idea of I want to hold a fire event on this side of the world, Asia's my home, and I want to create some kind of event for people who live over here, people who want to come over here and visit. So Bali's been a special place for me for a while, but I didn't always know how special it was until I experienced the community there. Yeah. And maybe until after you left, right?

40:50Like you said, this was such a special place for me. And then it's dot, dot, dot. And then I left for two years. Yes. Yes. But then, right. Obviously that's, I mean, you found your way back and that's a wonderful thing. And yeah, it's just, it's an interesting observation, certainly like you're saying of, yeah, it's one thing to be fi in some random suburb in the US, like me, where everybody else is working to a large degree. But it sounds like a really intentional community of people who have maybe come from all across the globe, including, I assume, local Balinese people who have formed this really vibrant community.

41:31And it's obvious, you can hear it in your voice, just the vibrancy of A, the community and what it means to you. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm an introvert. But when I get around people that are like minded, and that are really inspiring, I could sit and talk for hours and listen to other people and learn from them. And that's what I felt, both with the fire community, because I found my tribe in the US with this community, I love it. And I went to eight fire events. And I've got a mustache at the end of the month. So, you know, that'll be my ninth. But I've been to a lot of fire events in the US.

42:04And my tribe, you know, is in Bali, too. And I feel like it's a very similar kind of tribe, you know, that people who are living intentionally, they've chosen kind of a non-traditional path thinking about how would I really value and how do I align my life with those values? And they're very driven, inspiring, motivated people. And so I feel like I learn a lot from them. And so I love the community in Bali as well. Yeah, that's cool. And like you, you kind of mentioned here and I mentioned at the beginning is you have started your own FI event. So it's the five freedom retreat, but right. It's at five freedom retreats, plural retreats.com.

42:41And you sold this thing out instantly. So we're not talking about this to sell tickets by any means. Like it was astonishing how fast it sold out. I know I mentioned in my five weekly newsletter and you're like, oh, it had already sold out long before then, which is amazing. And it just shows really the desire for these type of meetups all across the globe, because at least from what I recollect you telling me, it wasn't a lot of Americans who signed up. It was people from Australia and Asia and again, all across the globe. And that's just such a cool thing. And nothing like that has existed before.

43:16Obviously the Chautauqua event is probably the most similar to what you're creating, but I know the majority of people who attended Chautauqua, at least in my experience, were American. And of course, nothing wrong with that clearly, but it's really neat that you've created something that, that there was such a desire for. Did you know there was such a desire for it? Was it like a pleasant surprise when it sold out essentially instantly? Yeah, no, I didn't fully know. And you know, it's hard to know in the beginning, right? I just, I know that I love Bali and I want to bring people here and expose them because I felt like Bali opened my eyes.

43:49You know, I loved international school teaching, but then when I went to Bali and stayed there and saw the expats living there, it opened my eyes to a whole new world and a whole new possibility. So, you know, I wanted to bring people to Bali and show them that life. And I do feel like there's something special about going international that opens a new realm of what could be created, you know, and to meet people are doing really cool things in the world. So I wanted to bring people to Bali, but I didn't really know, you know, if it was going to be something that people would be that interested in.

44:19And so I felt really touched. And I felt so supported by this community. And, you know, again, and again, and I, like you said earlier, there is something about an in person event, and I have gained so much from these in person events, because the community is sat down and talked to me about my money fears, logged on to Vanguard with me looked at my asset allocation, looked at my spreadsheet and my numbers, you know, people have shown up for me again and again. And then when I put on this event, I'm just, I feel so supported. And I do feel like in life, when you're choosing something that's really aligned with your values and your where your heart is calling you, then life does find a way to show up and support you and the right people show up.

44:59So I do feel really honored that so many people want to come and I don't take it lightly, you know, that they're all going to fly to Bali. And so I'm working to put on the best event for them. And it's going to be phenomenal. I mean, we're going to have amazing speakers. And the quality participants is incredible. So there's so many super money savvy people that are very supportive and generous with their time and helpful. And so, you know, just like when I go to economy or campfire or fin talks, any of these events or camp mustache, you know, I learn a lot from the speakers, but I learned just as much from the participants.

45:31And then we're going to have adventures in Bali together and do lots of cultural stuff. And then we're going to hang out afterwards and have some fun time, you know, at the beach, even after it ends, just hanging out, getting to know each other. So there is a lot of value in those small conversations that we'll have and that we have at all of these events. So if your listeners haven't gone to a campfire economy or a fin talks or a camp mustache, you know, or they want to come to Bali by freedom, I would recommend it. There's something special, especially about a multi-day event. The second day, something special really happens.

46:02And those relationships go really deep. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. Would echo that significantly. I think I've been to probably six or seven, not quite as many as you, but I'm getting close. Yeah, there's just something really special about it. So we'll have all of those links to all the events that you mentioned in the show notes. But I guess for people, you're going to have this in all likelihood every single year. So it looks like I'm on your website now. If you go way to the bottom, bottom right, you can sign up for a mailing list. So I'm assuming those people will be the first to find out about the 2024 event.

46:36Yeah. And I would recommend to get on the mailing list because it will, I anticipate we'll sell out fast again. So that way they can be the first to know. And I would love to welcome them to Bali. Yeah. That sounds so cool. And yeah, maybe I can convince my wife and we can join you in 2024. That'd be awesome. Oh, I would love it. I would love it. Yeah, that'd be great. So just one last thing I wanted to talk about it since We mentioned very much in passing a couple of these gap years that you took. And I know you've mentioned before that it's something you really believe in and that you think a lot more people should consider.

47:12Now, we've talked about a lot of these important kind of, hey, maybe have this aha moment. And I think a gap year is something that most people don't really consider because they think about what is it going to look like on my resume or all these other ridiculous these things like, which I mean, they're not ridiculous, of course, but how would you respond to that to somebody who has these normal fears? And I don't mean to make light of them, of course, but these very normal fears about taking that time off about having like you said, you even had imposter syndrome, right from taking two years off of teaching.

47:43So I mean, you very viscerally know what that's like to have these legitimate fears. And again, I was kidding before, but talk me through that and the power and value of gap years. I think it speaks to what we were saying before, about, you know, what if it's better? You know, you just never know what could happen in a gap here. You know, you don't know what you don't know. So I took my first gap here in 2005 when I left Japan and I traveled around Southeast Asia and India and Europe. And in that year, I met someone who was an international school teacher and I wasn't actually sure I was going to go to international school teaching.

48:16And that was a life changing moment for me. And then coming to Bali and, you know, healing, I would have never anticipated like healing my relationship with my father and being able to meet someone in Bali. I didn't even want to live in Bali because I didn't imagine that would be a good place to meet someone, but I was wrong, you know, and then I started a business in Bali with someone I met there. So, you know, you just never know when you take time to really deeply reflect on your life and get clear about your values in a way that's hard to do if you only have, you know, a couple of weeks off a year, you know, on the weekends, you're just doing life admin.

48:49I am at least taking some time for yourself and really getting clear about your values. And I would recommend, honestly, slow travel and being, because you can gap year and you can go a lot of places really quickly. And you're just constantly trying to figure out how do I get to the next place where I'm going to stay logistics. But if you allow yourself to kind of use that time, I would say intentionally to reflect, to do some meditation retreats, maybe do a 10 day silent retreat or stay in one place, have routine, meeting people, going deep with people, the community that you will meet and the opportunities that you have, it's something that you can't even anticipate.

49:28And it may save you years on your life because you may have some realizations that it would have, at least for me, it would have taken me years and years to figure out. And maybe I wouldn't have never, never figured them out until, you know, I'm on my deathbed with some regrets or something like that. But I would highly recommend. And I guess if listeners don't feel like they can take a full year, you know, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. You know, there is a lot of value even taking six months or two months, but taking some time to really reflect and doing it in an intentional way.

49:57Yeah. It's amazing how these themes keep recurring on shoes of I across so many of our guests of slow travel, of having a routine of not try. I mean, it sounds obvious when you, when you hear it, like not traveling to check boxes, right. But that's easy to say now, But I think that's how so many of us travel, right? Is, oh, I visited Italy, I visited France. And yeah, maybe I was there for a day or two, but is that really visiting? Is that really experiencing the culture? Is that really getting to know the city, the town, the country, the people? Probably not, if you're honest. And that's the kind of travel that I've done to a large degree.

50:35And I think really living somewhere of getting to feel the heartbeat of that city or that town and understanding how people live, there's just so much value to that. And I think that has become just so much more appealing to me as I've learned more about myself, about the world, and what I value from my day-to-day life. And yeah, it's an interesting, interesting thing. And I love the intersection there, as you're describing, of this gap year and slow travel. And I think people, that's yet another thing that I hope people are leaving from this episode with just being mindful of. It's something to consider.

51:12And like you just said, because so many of us do fall back into our old type A, oh, I have to check boxes. It doesn't have to be a year. It's called a gap year, but it doesn't have to be a year, right? It can be a gap month or a gap two months. I mean, of course, in theory, the longer the better, but don't beat yourself up. I think that's, Amy, if I could put words in your mouth, I think that's what we both would say to people is don't beat yourself up about something that you can't control. You're trying to do the best you can. You're trying to learn and you're trying to grow. Yeah, I guess the other thing I would say about a gap year or a gap six months or whatever is it allows you to try on your retirement.

51:49So I wouldn't have realized, like I said, I went to Bali a dozen times as a tourist and maybe I spent there 10 days at a time max each time, but it wasn't really till I lived there that I saw their whole different side of it. So if listeners have an idea of what their ideal post-fi life looks like, try that out for a little a while and see how much they like it. And, you know, that may give them other ideas or they may meet someone and it may lead them on a whole other path. But definitely there's a lot of learning through that process. Indeed, indeed. Amy, thank you so very much for coming on.

52:22It was lovely to talk to you. I think I can certainly say with confidence that people enjoy this episode. I'd love to have you back on someday for certain. And maybe I'll see you in Bali in 2024. But if people are looking to get in touch with you, find out more, how can they reach out to you? Sure. They can go to the footer on my contact page, get on the mailing list, but they can reach out to me directly if they click on the contact page and there's a form there that they can fill out and reach out to me directly. And they're welcome to ask any questions that they've got questions about Bali or Southeast Asia.

52:53I've lived in the region since 2001. So I'm happy to give advice about other places as well. And, you know, I will be at Camp Fi in January and March next year and economy again. So I hope to meet people in person at those events as well. And thank you so much for having me on. Your podcast made such a difference in my life. And I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing and for creating financial literacy and freedom for people in the world. It's transformational. It was for me. That's incredible. Thank you so much, Amy. I really appreciate it. And yeah, it's been wonderful getting to know you.

53:25And again, thanks for coming on. So right, if people are looking to reach out. So it's five freedom retreats, plural.com five freedom retreats.com. Yes. Thank you. You got it. All right, Amy. Thanks again. Thank you. Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose by community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player and just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com slash subscribe.

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55:12just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.