477 | The Hot Seat: Community Edition

25:41So I've really been appreciating that podcast. And Flection Point in my life that was memorable, I mean, most recently was qualifying for PSLF, Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and being able to be done with my student loans was a major, I couldn't believe that it had been 10 years. Favorite life hack, just automating as much as I can, automating bills has been very helpful knowing that those will be taken out without me having to do anything. and I still try to check at least every other week or once a month, but automation has been helpful. Biggest financial mistake, I would say, just not knowing early on in my student loans how it worked.

26:24And so there was two years where I didn't realize I was on the wrong plan for public service loan forgiveness and I thought I was on the right plan and it just led to accruing interest and two more years, which fortunately the review of the PSLF plan during COVID kind of saved me or was very helpful to me. Advice I would give my younger self, I think just budgeting really, it wasn't until my mid twenties that I really thought about budgets or that I knew anything regarding retirement or kind of thinking about that. So I think even just that, just kind of pointing myself to being able to learn about that would be helpful.

27:05And the last year, what purchases added value in my life, I would say our e-bike. My spouse and I have been considering a second car and decided to purchase an e-bike in the spring. And that's been a really great way for us to get to know the town in a different way for if one of us has the car, the other person, you know, can bike to the grocery store, can bike downtown. And we just happen to live in a town where those things are accessible. So that's definitely added value. And we've gotten to share that experience with anybody that's come visit us. So that's been great. Thank you. Brad, have you got an e-bike yet?

27:42You know, I have not got an e-bike yet. And it was interesting because I went to the economy conference. So that's actually, this year's one is coming up March 15th in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is, I know it's kind of last minute at this point when the episode's going out, it's about a month in the future, but economy is fantastic. And I'm going back again this year. So Kevin from financialpanther.com actually had one of the main stage talks. And it was so interesting. He spent the entire talk talking about e-bikes and he called it the best investment you'll ever make. And I thought it was really peculiar at the time, but as I was going through it, I'm like, well, this is really interesting.

28:23I mean, it's such a compelling case for it. So we'll link that up in the show notes. I think it's just financialpanther.com slash e-bikes. And it has a link to that 15 or 20 minute talk. But yeah, it hasn't really risen to the point yet where I purchased one. But what about you? Yeah, we got one last year and I completely understand people's enthusiasm about it because it has been a great purchase for us and changed the way that we've done a lot of things. Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's very cool. Further, I don't know anyone who has regretted getting an e-bike. Do you know anyone who said, Hey, I don't use this as much as I thought I would?

28:57No. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting way to look at, uh, an issue, right? Like that's funny because I never would have went there, but yeah, I've never heard anybody do anything but rave about how wonderful they are. So, okay. Uh, it's a, I I'm not going to promise like you promised the password manager, but I will think about it. I promise to think about it, Brad. So yeah, Caesar had a lot of good things in there. So first the PSLF, that's incredible. Huge congrats. I know we've had Travis Hornsby from student loan planner on so many times on the podcast. The most recent, I think was about a year ago, episode 437.

29:32Basically his company, student loan planner does one-on-one consults with people who have student loans and they are really pretty remarkable at finding different ways for forgiveness of these based on all the various government programs that exist. So that's one of those things. I'll put this link in the show notes. It's just studentloanplanner.com slash choose FI. And I think if you go through that, they offer a hundred dollars off the custom consult. So, you know, that's not nothing, obviously. So if you have student loans, listen to an episode of choose FI with Travis, and then think about reaching out.

30:06I guess the other thing that I wanted to mention from Cesar was automating his, his life hack. So like automating your financial life, I think this is one of those critical things. Like unless you're somebody who just really wants to be hands-on for some reason, like that's how you desperately need to control your financial life. I think automating is the best thing you could possibly do. It's just set up everything on autopilot, auto pay, all your credit cards, super simple, pay the full statement balance on auto pay, set up automatic transfers, all of your bills should be auto pay. There should not be a point where you're manually paying anything at this point, unless you really desperately want to.

30:44That's kind of how I approach it. But Ginger, how do you think about automation with your finances? Yeah, I think that's the kind of the key to all our success. It's sort of essential. Yeah. All right, Ginger, let's move on. So we have one from Aaron here. Hello, this is Aaron, and I'm honored to have a crack at the Choose FI hot seat. As for a podcast or book that I've read recently, I'd have to say never split the difference. And it's not specifically a financial book, and I do read quite a few of those. But this book, I wanted to squeeze every last little bit of information out of. I thought it had a lot to offer with negotiation in general.

31:25But of course, in the community here, we're probably most interested in negotiating better salaries. And there's a whole outline of how to go about that. And I thought that was very interesting. An inflection point in my life, I'd say recently I just bought my first property for a house hack. And with the markets as they are right now, everywhere you look, the market's terrible, it's going to crash. No, it's going up. It's this, it's that. And I had decided that I can give myself any excuse that I wanted so I could avoid taking that leap. and then of course you realize that if you continue to give yourself excuses it's never going to happen so I went I took that leap and it's given me a lot of experience in a very very short amount of time as for my favorite life hack I definitely have to say DIY I'm a very hands-on person and I practically refuse to pay anyone else to do something that I think I can learn and do in a reasonable amount of time with little money invested.

32:35So I would definitely say that's one of my biggest life hacks, especially with the new house. I have to learn how to do new things. And as for my biggest financial mistake, I'm pretty young, so I can't say that there are any that jump out in my mind right now. So hopefully it stays that way. And the advice, I would just say, continue what you're doing. and I've always had a plan and it's always worked out for me. So definitely stick to that advice, I would tell myself. And as for the latest purchase, I'm not a big shopper. So I would say the last thing that I bought was a new to me phone through back market.

33:16I used my previous phone until the day it died. I used it until it could not serve me anymore. And then I went and I got a Reverbist phone for a fraction of the price of a new one. So I would say that's probably my most beneficial purchase in the past 12 months. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be featured on the hot seat. All right, Aaron, I like this. This is a very old school Fi in the best possible way, right? So we have, you used your phone until it absolutely died, which is cool, I think what gets lost sometimes in today's FI world is frugality is still important. I think it's easy to say, oh, die with zero and oh, I'm going to spend based on my values.

34:04And listen, I'm the biggest proponent of this. I think I've largely moved the narrative on this over the last seven years on this podcast. And I'm very proud of that. But I don't want anybody to lose sight of for one second that frugality still has a place in the financial independence community. And I think that's what value-based spending is all about. It's for me, I'm frugal in certain areas of my life because I just don't, I don't value certain things. But then I spend significantly in other areas based on my values. So Aaron really hit on a bunch of these things, right? So use something until it dies.

34:39There's great value in that. and actually utilizing something. So many things just get thrown away, half used at this point. That's pretty cool. The DIY. I mean, Ginger, at this point in life with YouTube and Google and now AI, there is no excuse to not be able to at least try to fix something or do something on your own at this point. Like, I mean, listen, there are some things outside of your expertise. Like I'm not doing electrical work or plumbing in my house, but I mean, there's lots of things that the old Brad would have given up on or not even tried. And now, hey, why don't I at least start on YouTube and see what I can figure out?

35:18Because you know what? It feels pretty darn good to learn something new in a 30-minute span and fix something in your house. It doesn't have to just be limited to fixing, obviously, but you can DIY a whole heck of a lot of things. Yeah, that's exactly the point that I was going to pick up on, which is that the DIY, why the value of that is not just I'm saving some money. I think there are huge advantages that come out of that. And part of that you hit on like, hey, now I've learned something and this has changed how I think about myself and what I'm capable of. And, you know, it's incredible. Yeah, indeed, indeed.

35:52And then, yeah, for me, the last thing on Aaron's is just taking action where he said, look, I bought a house hack and it was really easy to not take action and come up with just a litany of excuses. and it sounds like he's a pretty young guy, but I mean, even over months or years, just excuse after excuse. And it sounds like you pulled the trigger. I mean, goodness, if you, I don't know exactly how old Aaron is, but if you in your 20s could get a house hack and reduce your living expenses down to minimal or potentially zero, I mean, goodness, Ginger, you are so far ahead of the game, right? For most people, that is by far their biggest expense.

36:28It's 30 plus percent of your total budget and maybe potentially 30 to 50 plus percent. If you can get that down to zero by, hey, what's a house hack? I purchased a place, whatever it is, let's say a four bedroom house. I just got out of college. I've been living in a dorm. I've been living with friends in an apartment. Is it so bad to share a house with friends? No. I rent out the other three bedrooms or you rent them on Craigslist or whatever it may be. And if that can cover most or all of your mortgage, you're living for essentially zero. And that is just, I mean, fantastic. That is a life changer.

37:03So I mean, huge, huge congrats to Aaron. Yeah. I think the takeaway there is what he's saying is don't let the uncomfortable feeling be the thing that stops you from taking action. You know, when we're uncomfortable, that's when we grow. Yeah. I love it. All right, Ginger, why don't we actually do our own hot seats here? So you and I both prepared. So do you want to, you want to start first or me? Sure. I'll go first. Okay, then let's do it. Let's do it old school. We won't put in the intro music, but I'll actually ask you the question. So all right. What's a podcast blog or book that you've enjoyed recently?

37:37Okay, this month, I finished the book flow by Six Cent Mihail. And we talked about him before and his book finding flow, which I've read several times and I'm very familiar with it's kind of the more accessible short version. So if you just kind of want to taste, go read Finding Flow. But before I read it the fourth time, I was like, hey, maybe you should go actually read the original research. So I did that. And it was so good. And I think it is so good for this community. And I even wanted to pull out a little bit in terms of if you are at that stage where you are retiring or about to retire, I think that retirement transition is so interesting, right?

38:19Because it's a chance that you get to rethink, like, what is your life going to be like? And Flo, this book is all about how do we direct our psychic energy so that we have the best lives that we can have. And we really have to, so much of that is done through our work for us. And when we don't have that kind of paid work structure anymore, we have to think about how we're going to do that for ourselves. So I'm just going to throw out a quote here from him where he says, unless a person knows how to give order to his or her thoughts, attention will be attracted to whatever is most problematic at the moment.

38:53It will focus on some real or imaginary pain, or recent grudges or long term frustrations. Entropy is the normal state of consciousness, a condition that is neither useful nor enjoyable. And so if we think about like, naturally, we are going to go to this disorganized mental place that we have to really put the effort towards getting to the contented place. Like, I think that's a different way to think about it. And I know in this community, there's been a lot of talk about like, oh, you can't just go to the beach and, you know, sip your pina colada. But this is sort of the details of how that works.

39:30And he talks about, I'll just pull out another quote here, the growth of the self occurs only if the interaction is an enjoyable one. That is if it offers non-trivial opportunities for action and requires a constant perfection of skills. And so as you think about leaving the workforce, you know, so often I think we think of goals and skills, we conflate them with this idea of paid work. And instead, we need to think about them in terms of this is how we actually live an optimal experience is to put in that effort, is to perfect our skills. And the skill doesn't have to be like making a product for someone, you know, or giving a service to someone that they're going to pay us for.

40:14It can be things like, I'm going to grow the very best carrot. It can be, I am going to be the absolute best at de-escalating conflicts between toddlers, whatever that is, but it's that those experiences are what help us to enjoy our life. So I'm kind of going on a rambling now, but to me, it's so important just for everyone, right? What we give our attention to is what our life is, but especially for those people who are thinking, what is my life going to be like when I step away from that structure of paid work? Wow. Okay. That was not rambling at all. That was fantastic, first off. And I think that's something I need to almost go back and listen to what you just said over the last minute or two, because there was, there's so much there.

40:58And I think the only thing I wanted to focus on right now is just the entropy, right? So like this inexorable slide into a state of disorder, right? And like, I think that is the way the world and our own minds seem to work. And I think what you're saying is like, it's just yet another thing you need to be aware of. And when you're aware of in, you can maybe take steps to mitigate or circumvent that from happening to a large degree. So, right. Like, where can you focus? I think that's so important. I love how you said that at the end. Like, all right, look, a lot of your life is going to be based on where you focus your energy and your thoughts and just to be cognizant of that.

41:40In fact, that's entirely your life. All of your life is a subjective experience. And so that's why this is like the stakes are so high. And I think the key point in what you were just talking about is that the entropy is the natural state. So our minds are going to do that. It's not like if we're a certain kind of person. And I think most people have felt this where they're really looking forward to a day off to do nothing. And then by 11 o 'clock, they're like, oh, I feel so blue or I feel so terrible. And it's my special day off. But it's this thing of like the disorder of our mind. And so we have to make the effort.

42:17That's his point is like to have a good life and to enjoy your life. We have to make effort in order to get our minds to that organized place. Wow. Okay. We could do a whole episode on that. So let's, I think we're going to punt that. That was incredible. So, right. That is about the best case ever for, uh, Chiksenmiha's books. So that's, uh, yeah, incredible. All right. Let's move on to the second question of many here. So an inflection point in your life that was especially memorable or meaningful. Okay. I'm going to pull out two here that are related. I think this can be the hour-long ginger.

42:53Yeah, yeah, the dinner show. I love it. I was thinking about when I was 22 years old and sitting on my bed in my studio apartment reading personal finance books. And I was trying to remember who was it that originally came up with the latte effect that everyone was talking about. Was that David Bach? David Bach, yeah, yeah. Okay. So that was one of them that I read. Like I was reading a lot of Susie Orman and I read some David Bach and this idea, you know, the reason they talk about the whole, oh, a coffee every day is to introduce the idea of compound interest, really. Right. But as I was starting to sort of think about these things, that was really compelling to me to say, OK, if I think about as now I'm 22 years old and I think about my daily little expenses and what those could add up to.

43:39it did change my life in the sense that even if we just talk about coffee, right, it did change how I thought about how I spent on little purchases. And then when I think about a few years ago, I read Ramit's book and he's like, buy the effing coffee, you know, like think about what you value and that's way more important. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna buy the coffee. Right. And so at both times, I guess you could say the takeaway is like Ginger just does whatever someone in a book tells her to. But really, it's about like, where are you at in your life that you are open to those ideas, I guess.

44:16Because at both times, I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm not going to buy the coffee. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to buy the coffee. But I think the takeaway is like, we have to be open to changing, we have to be open to thinking about how are these lessons going to tie into who I am right now? And what are my goals right now? So now I'm buying the coffee more, but you know, stay tuned. I like it. And it really is important. And I think that's why I said a couple of minutes ago about like where different people are in their fly journey, right? Like the frugality is an important part. And just like maybe the framework of die with zero is an important part.

44:50Maybe as you approach five or you get to fat five certainly. And in the spectrum of five, those both have their place. And I think it's very simplistic to say, oh, being frugal is not important anymore. That's ridiculous. Of course, it's important. It's always going to be important. That doesn't mean to be cheap or deprive yourself, but there is some aspect of frugality that is always going to be important in the five community. Hard stop. End of story. And I think it's important that we know that. And it's funny you mentioned David Bach because his book, Smart Couples Finish Rich, I just recollected was the book, the very first personal finance book that I think Laura and I ever read.

45:28And we certainly we read it together or essentially together. And that was just a really good book. So he doesn't get a lot of credit in modern personal finance, but David Bach has some real good stuff. All right, let's move on your favorite life hack. Okay, I was thinking I can't remember if anyone has mentioned this, but grayscaling your phone, and specifically doing the shortcut for grayscaling your phone. Okay. Is this on iOS? Yeah. So if you just Google, you know, how to grayscale your phone or how to do a shortcut, it's not like, it's not intuitive. You have to look up what the steps are.

46:03But then once you do it, every time I triple click my little button, my phone goes to grayscale. And so that can be a better way to do it to someone who's like, oh, I don't want to just have it like this all the time. You essentially opt in by triple clicking. You can do that at any point. Yeah. You can do that at any point. So if you're like, you know what, I just need to really love my phone right now. It's okay. You don't need to do it. But if you haven't done grayscale on your phone, and that's the kind of thing that's important to you to be able to step away, it is incredible how unappealing your phone is when you have it in grayscale.

46:36Have you ever played around with it? I have not. No, I still have an old school Android. So I'm not sure. I'll have to figure out what's comparable here on the Android. I'm sure there's something. Yeah. So just if you want your phone to be a little less compelling, give it a try. Yeah. So right. Any way to add friction, right? I think that's the heart of the matter is turn off your notifications, turn on grayscale, like, because our brains just, you like reflexively, you open your phone, you go to your email app. Like you don't even think about it. Your brain just, just happens. But if you can add any little bit of friction in, that's the way to, to succeed so that you're not constantly overloaded with that.

47:16What really is an addiction, frankly. So I like that. I like it a lot. So, all right. Biggest financial mistake. Okay. Biggest financial mistake is very easy for me to pinpoint and I feel embarrassed about it, but I think that's the value of this question is like, if we can be honest about those mistakes that we've made, right, then we can help each other out. But mine is, so back when I started investing in my twenties, after I had read those books, I opened a brokerage account. I was like, I got, you know, I'm going to start my Roth. I had read Susie Orman stuff about dollar cost averaging. And I was like, great.

47:55Okay. So I just took a part of my paycheck and I sent it to the brokerage. And for years and years and years, I did this. And then I realized, because of course they didn't make it clear that every time I was purchasing my mutual fund, they were taking a$50 fee. And I'll just give the numbers here just to make it clear how horrible it was. At that time, I was putting$350 in. And every time of that$350, $50 was the fee for the trade. Oh my God. So 14%, a one-seventh. That's insane. Incredible math, Brad. Yes. Yes. For years I did that. And then for some reason, I don't even know how I figured this out.

48:43But once I did, then it's like, oh, wait, I think it was through them. It's like, oh, if you get a exchange traded fund instead of a mutual fund, oh, there's no fee. Oh my gosh. you know but kind of the takeaway there is like i said that fee was not obvious anywhere unless you were looking for it unless you had a little bit more knowledge about how this stuff worked and i was freaking 25 i didn't know you know now how could you know ginger that's incredible okay this has actually come across my plate this is the third time in the last 72 hours that this exact same issue has crossed my world and really yeah so we're recording this at the beginning but essentially the beginning of January, my next newsletter, I'm including a section about this because I think it's so important.

49:29And now it's funny that we're recording this and this is now the third time I already made that decision. So for anybody who is not on my newsletter, I put these really important little, little things that I come across every week and then plus a lot of our 1 % wins from people from the community get on the newsletter. Honestly, it's really worth your while choose a bit.com slash subscribe. So ginger. Yeah. I think you hit on that is I think where a lot of people get in trouble is with buying mutual funds. And I think like we've talked about so many times here on the podcast. So VTSAX, right? Vanguard's total stock market index fund has almost become, has taken on a life of itself in the fight community.

50:07And, you know, it's obviously this wonderful thing that JL Collins has talked about in the simple path to wealth and the stock series, but it's almost become this like sacrosanct, like it has to be VTSAX. And nobody was ever saying that. I think that's the most important thing to get across here is a lot of people, I fear are paying a lot of fees because they're trying to invest in VTSAX in places where they shouldn't be. And it like breaks my heart. Not quite as much as hearing that 14 % of your contributions went to essentially a fee or commission. But I mean, this is astonishing. And basically, so the way to circumvent this is as far as I've been able to figure out and Frank Vasquez, who is been on the podcast, he's going to be on in the next couple of months.

50:57And he has a podcast, an amazing podcast called risk parody radio. This is an incredible show. And Frank is one of the most prolific members of our Facebook group. He's just the most helpful human being you can imagine. Basically. He told me that this is true at Fidelity Schwab and Vanguard, that they no longer have commissions on stocks or ETFs purchased at their site, regardless of which financial institutions, let's say ETF it is. So the succinct way of putting this is, let's say you have a Fidelity account, okay? And for some reason, you are desperate to invest in Vanguard funds, all right?

51:34You've heard JL talk about VTSAX, but you just heard Brad say, all right, you're going to get clobbered with fees if you try to buy mutual funds at another firm. So buying a mutual fund, which is what VTSAX is, at Fidelity is going to get you hit with, I believe it's a$75 fee every time you try to purchase. Don't do that. Do not do that. If you are desperate to buy a Vanguard fund in some way, and I'm putting fund in quotes, but you have a Fidelity account, let's say, or Schwab, you can buy the ETF. Now the ETF version of VTSAX is just called VTI. All right. So that is the total stock market ETF.

52:15And because those financial institutions have$0 commission on ETFs and stocks, you should, you should, and again, I have to check this out. I can't check it out with every financial institution, but you should see a$0 commission or fee when you make that purchase. So contrast that VTSAX,$75 fee, VTI,$0 fee for essentially the exact same thing. It's total stock market. It's from Vanguard. One's a mutual fund. One's an ETF. But for all intents and purposes, it's the exact same thing. So just keep that in mind. You can buy those ETFs. And frankly, if you're at Fidelity, you could buy their, I think it's FZROX.

52:55That's their mutual fund that has zero fees. Or I think, you know, there's a whole bunch of funds or ETFs from that financial institution that is total stock market or S &P 500. Just please don't pay fees. Please don't pay commissions. This is really, really important. All right, Ginger. So soapbox over, but I think that was important. So I'm glad I was able to talk about that. So advice you would give your younger self? Start lifting weight sooner and stop drinking sooner. I think both those had really big effects on my health and my sleep and how I was feeling. And yeah, I just wish I'd done it sooner.

53:32All right. Well, those are two important ones. I'm glad you figured it out because, yeah, they're both really important. It is amazing. It's almost like it's a blessing and a curse when you start tracking your health. Yeah. And I have an aura ring, which is O-U-R-A, and it tracks my sleep and some other stats and such. And I have basically mostly given up drinking alcohol. I mean, 99 plus percent. I might have a stray like cider or something every once a month or once every other month. But when I do, it raises my resting heart rate overnight almost 10 % from one drink. And Ginger, that's usually at six o 'clock at night and I'll go to sleep at 930 or 10.

54:15So we're talking hours upon hours later. invariably my heart rate goes up three, four, five, six beats per minute for, I mean, that's crazy time for one alcoholic drink. And then you think about how many tens upon tens of millions of people in the U S are drinking a whole lot more than that on a regular basis. Like, I don't know. I don't know how we did it. I don't know how people do it now. It's just, it's hard to believe. Yeah. Did you read the sleep book or have you guys talked about that on the podcast though? Why We Sleep? Oh, by Matthew Walker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have read portions of it.

54:48I've heard him. He has a podcast. I think it's the Matt Walker podcast or something like that. You can find it. But I've done a lot of research on sleep. But yeah, I've read some of his books. Oh, yeah. I mean, he talks a little bit about the one drink, you know, going through what are the different things that happen to your sleep. And it's kind of mind blowing. So mind blowing. Yeah. Yeah. It's not easy in our culture to step away from alcohol for a bunch of different reasons, but boy, it pays dividends. So yeah, it does. And certainly lifting weights is another thing that pays dividends. I mean, I think like, as we talked about with entropy being the natural state of things and with our bodies, the natural state of things is something called sarcopenia, which is like the natural loss of a breakdown of muscle.

55:34And this is just yet another long, inexorable slide to essentially having no muscle. Like by the time I forget what the exact age is, but it's something like after age, pretty young, like 35 or something, you start losing X percent of muscle every single year, unless you actively try to sustain or grow. So, I mean, imagine what that compounds into negatively over not when you're 35 or 45, 55, 65, 70, think about that all the way through your life. You need to very actively make a concerted effort to sustain and grow muscle because it's not just for vanity's sake. It's, hey, what do I want to do?

56:15I think a lot of us have been following Dr. Peter Atiyah for a long time. And he had that incredible book, Outlive. And he talks about his, he's called it multiple different things. So I think it's the centenarian Olympics at this point, which is basically like, What are the things that I want to do, as he calls it, in my marginal decade, my last decade alive, whether that's in your 80s, 90s, or maybe beyond if you're lucky. But, hey, I want to be able to still lift a suitcase into an overhead bin. Well, I mean, if you can't do that at 45, well, there's no way on earth you're going to be able to do that at 85 unless you make a massive effort.

56:50But what if that's, I mean, even if you can do that at 45, unless you do something, you're going to lose that. And that's just one simple example. But even just the normal course of life, walking up and down stairs, picking up a grandchild or a great grandchild when you're 85 or 95, you need to work at this. And you need to start when you're a whole lot younger because you know that that muscle reduction is happening as just a natural state of things. Weightlifting is the e-bike of health, right? Like no one's like, oh, I regret that I started really consistently lifting weights. Yeah. Yeah. I like it.

57:28I like it. And I said, you know, not for vanity sake, but I mean, let's be honest with ourselves. Part of exercising is about looking good, right? Like nobody's going to lie about that. And the way that you get that fit tone body is by lifting weights. It's not running endlessly. And for all my running lovers out there, please don't send me hate mail. That's already happened once or twice over the, over the seven years. Nobody's saying running's bad. Running's wonderful, but you have to lift weights. It's plain and simple. And the running community has come to that conclusion also. I think you're seeing a lot more runners realize, oh, wow, this is further causing that breakdown of muscle.

58:02I need to really redouble my efforts. So yeah, I think lifting weights is pretty much a universal good. So I like that, Ginger. All right, Ginger. So last question is, what purchase have you made in the last 12 months or so that's added the most value to your life? Flannel sheets, luxury flannel sheets. Yes, I bought some expensive flannel sheets. They're from LL Bean. They're the ones that everyone loves. You made a face. You know about them. I do know about them. I actually, it's funny. I purchased them and then I like, I had a crisis and I blew like confidence. I'm like, oh, I can't spend this much money on sheets.

58:38And I returned them before I opened them. But okay. I think I should get them again. Oh my gosh. I think about how much I love them every single night. They're so great. I also had a really hard time purchasing them and kind of why I did is beside the point, but it wasn't an easy purchase for me. No. And oh my gosh, no regrets. I'm so, so happy. Yeah. Ginger, that is awesome. Actually, it's funny. I just in the last 30 seconds, I called up my order. I don't know if the ones that I got were the flannel because these are, but it's got to be the same because like you said, everybody talks about it.

59:14These are the 280 thread count Pima cotton percale sheet set. This is rated like the number one sheet set in the world, but it sounds like it's a slightly different one than you bought. So when you find the one that you purchase, we're going to put that in the show notes. So stay tuned. Okay. Okay, Brad, are you ready? It's your turn. Oh boy. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So first question, what is a podcast blog or book that you have enjoyed recently? Okay. Okay. So, and I guess what's interesting about these six questions is I have done the hot seat before on the podcast is all the way back. I forget exactly what episode it's probably somewhere around episode 10.

59:52So it'll be interesting. I'm going to go back and listen and see how similar some of my answers were, but okay. Blogs. I don't really read that many blogs. So podcast, I'm a big fan of, uh, well, I've mentioned my first million a bunch of times. That's a favorite one of mine. I think my favorite show at this point might be the Prof G pod. So it's this guy, Scott Galloway. He's a professor actually of marketing at NYU, but he's just like a really interesting, insightful guy. And I just eat up anything he produces. So Prof G pod, he's also on the podcast pivot with Kara Swisher. So I probably at this point, listen to four podcasts a week from Scott Galloway.

1:00:33What is the subject or content of the... Yeah, honestly, it's a little bit of everything. And that's not a very satisfying answer. I guess a lot of business, it's a lot of... I mean, I guess there is some aspect of marketing, but they talk a bunch of politics, though not in a negative kind of way that I don't want to deal with. It's just like goings on in the world. It's like how I get my news, essentially. And he's always bringing on really insightful guests that I just like on topics that I have little to no knowledge. And I just find the guests he brings on really fascinating. And I just, I like his take on life really.

1:01:13I think he is just a good person to follow. So I think he's just a really good person to follow in essence. Okay. So the next question, an inflection point in your life that was especially memorable or meaningful. And of course, I think this is so interesting because you've already answered this question. It sort of highlights how memories are not videos of what has happened in our mind, but instead where we are influences how meaningful we find something from our past. So I guess it doesn't really matter if you remember your last answer because the question is about Brad today. So Brad today, what is an inflection point in your life that was memorable?

1:01:55Yeah, that's a great setup. I mean, I think it has to be choose a fire at this point. I think it has to be meeting Jonathan in the middle of 2016, just randomly and just serendipity taking over and it just really radically transforming my life. I mean, like I never could have imagined my life as the co-founder of this platform that really has, has made like a dent in the world. I mean, I think it's still hard for me to wrap my mind around sometimes, Ginger, but like, I mean, this podcast has been downloaded, I think somewhere in the vicinity of 65 million times. Like it's, I think, and I know I said this before, but I really believe that like we've helped subtly shift the narrative on what financial independence is.

1:02:43And I think it's very subtle. I think frankly, a lot of people, like I'm not looking for credit, but like we don't really get that much credit about it because I think it has been a very subtle shift. But when this place has been the beating heart of the five community for seven years, and it's just been really gratifying to like, to take in the best ideas and synthesize them and come up with a worldview that I think is really empowering. And I think has made a positive difference in a lot of people's lives. And frankly, when I was working in a random, no name office in Richmond, Virginia, doing corporate state tax returns nine years ago, I never could have imagined that I'd have the ability to do this.

1:03:22So I think without question, meeting Jonathan and starting Choose a Vi is the one that's on my mind now. Yeah. You use that word serendipity, and certainly we can see some of that, but also there had to be so many small actions that you made in a direction. And I wonder if you can even remember back then, were there moments of fear or like great hesitation about going forward in that direction? And if so, how did you sort of overcome those or what did that look like for you? Yeah, that is what a great insightful question. Fear. I don't feel in my mind's eye. And again, memory is not like taking a picture, certainly, like you said.

1:04:03And fear doesn't seem to come across my mind in terms of like the beginning of Chuzoi because it felt like this wide open space. And I think that's actually one of the things that I would recommend to people is like, if you can build something where like the downside, like the potential opportunity costs, what you're giving up is like so minimal. It's almost like going back to Annie Duke. It's almost like a free roll as people in the poker community call it. When you have essentially no downside, but maybe unlimited upside or, or it's a vast likelihood of upside. There's nothing to fear. And again, this might be rose colored glasses or like just looking back with, with imprecise memory, but like, I mean, ginger, it costs us nothing to start choose a vibe.

1:04:49Like it was just me and Jonathan recording podcasts from his spare office in Richmond. And like at that point, I think, cause I have listened to some of the early episodes recently. I'm like, you know, without patting ourselves on the back, like we were pretty good at this at the beginning. Like it was actually a pretty good listen. And I think we just hit on the right notes of like making this seem accessible, fi, this really life-changing superpower that seemed impossible for people. It seemed like it was only for some other them that could do it or you needed to have the exact right job or be a certain person.

1:05:24And like we said, that's not the case. Like this can be for anybody. So, I mean, I hear you when you say that the cost was really low, you know, financially, but there was a cost. There was a price that you paid. And part of that is you had to make yourself vulnerable and the price was potentially public humiliation, right? And so as we think about taking those risks, I think it's good to acknowledge. And I kind of wonder, do you remember any fears around, hey, I'm going to be a little bit more public or I'm going to say what I think about things and people might not agree with me or have thoughts about that?

1:05:58Yeah, you know, that's interesting. saying. I guess the fear was maybe that I always conceptualize myself as like an introvert or that I was not great at public speaking. And what's so funny, Ginger, is I always felt like I had so much to say. And I always felt like I had this really interesting take on the world and that time and again, I'd proven to myself like, oh, you have a pretty good read on things. And yet I had no outlet to talk about it. So like in this weird, again, using serendipity, like this weird alchemy and serendipity of like this podcasting medium, I think I've found the thing that like allows me to express myself in a way that no other aspect of my life has.

1:06:45So I think there was initial fear of, am I going to be able to overcome maybe some shyness or whatever word you want to use to describe it? But I think I very quickly realized that I could, and you know, going back to the Scott Galloway thing, I think maybe what I like so much about Professor Galloway is like, he speaks his mind on every topic. And I think like, maybe in my own head, like I've kind of jokingly called him my like spirit animal. Like, I think like, there's a lot of things that he says that like, maybe I don't have the guts to say even now on choose a buy, because frankly, like this is not the platform for Brad to talk about the random goings on in his head on things of politics or how the world's working or this and that.

1:07:28And like, obviously I have thoughts on those things. Right. And like, I think professor Galloway does a masterful job of saying what's on his mind while being pretty respectful. And I think pretty middle of the road, even though, you know, where he, where he's coming from. And do I ever fully express that on choose of? I know I don't because it's not the platform for it. We've from the very beginning said like, this is it completely politics and any of those third rails. Like we're not talking about that here because this is like an inclusive environment where we just want to compel you to take action to make your life better.

1:08:02And I don't want it to become like a sideshow of like, this is Brad's opinion or Jonathan's opinion or Ginger's opinion on some topic that frankly has nothing to do with your advice. So I don't know, maybe that's a limiting belief, Ginger, maybe people would be interested, but that's how I've always kind of taken this. I think it can be interesting too, to look back on what stopped you or didn't stop you in terms of thinking about how we're moving forward. And so I hear you saying, okay, well, the thing that really helped me was I had some confidence in my own abilities. I had high self-efficacy.

1:08:34I had confidence in my own that I had something to say. And so then you listener, you know, whatever that strength is for you, then you get to say, oh, I wonder what that will mean for me next year, because I have that strength. And I do have that belief that I can do what, what I want to do, you know? Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Okay. Moving on to our next question. We're going to lighten it up a little here. Um, your favorite life hack. Okay. There are way too many. And I think I actually probably littered in five to 10 in this episode alone. I'm pretty sure this is the same one I answered way back when is Todoist.

1:09:11So that's T-O-D-O-I-S-T. It's essentially just a task manager, but this is the thing that's probably made my life easier than anything else. Like I have offloaded 100 % of my tasks in life into Todoist and I don't have to remember anything anymore. Great. I'm going to cut you off. We need a new one. Oh no. Okay. All right, Ginger, you put me on the spot. But the most recent thing, I always think of myself as like a voracious reader. And I probably have not read as much in the last couple of years as I would like to believe. I recently started listening to audiobooks and I've found that this is the perfect complement to my regular tangible book reading.

1:09:58Because it allows me to quote unquote read in times where I otherwise wouldn't. So I go on a lot of walks and obviously can't read a book without taking your life into your hands. So I'm able to use audiobooks in that way. And I guess really the larger hack is just the library generally. I think this is one of those just wonderful ways our tax dollars are spent is at the public library. I think I probably saved tens of thousands of dollars at the library and you can get ebooks, audiobooks and regular old school books there. So, uh, yeah, I guess it's kind of two rolled into one, but I think at the end of the day, it just comes back to, uh, I want to read more and I'm doing everything I can to make that happen.

1:10:41Your biggest financial mistake. Okay. This I know is the exact same one because nothing even comes close. And so this was in my twenties. I purchased some speculative real estate, quote unquote investments, which would basically just land in these golf course or country club type communities down in North Carolina. and they turned into a total debacle. It was like the land that time forgot in essence, even after all these years, almost 20 years, they're still down like 70, 80 plus percent. And I wound up, I mean, the total cost of these things to me compounded over two decades is almost incalculable.

1:11:18I don't want to calculate it because it would make me cry. So that remains and will probably always remain my biggest financial listing. So I'm going to put you on the spot here so you don't have to answer it if you don't want. What if we change the question to what is the biggest financial mistake you've made in the last five years? Ooh, okay. Or take the pressure off and just say, what is a financial mistake? Yeah, I think I probably didn't 100 % follow through on my overall investor's policy statement. And probably the most distinct way of putting it was over allocated to cash, just timing the market when I know I shouldn't time the market.

1:11:55And granted, this wasn't with a massive portion of my portfolio or net worth, but I think by any definition, my investment returns have been dragged down by letting my silly little brain get involved in decisions. And that might mean thinking about selling or potentially selling a small amount when the world went to hell in March of 2020 and staying over allocated in cash. Because again, just trying to outsmart the market and nobody can outsmart the market. I know that. I know that in every fiber of my being. And yet I still made the mistake. So luckily this wasn't like a catastrophic mistake, but a mistake nevertheless.

1:12:36Yeah. I love that one because it gets back to what we were talking about at the beginning where you said, you know, we're not machines. And so it highlights how important it is to think of how big that mindset piece can be. Indeed. Okay. Let's see. So we're going to change this question a little bit again since you've done the hot seat before. So I'm going to say, what advice would you give to your 38-year-old self? 38-year-old self. You know, something that's changed in the last few years. Yeah. Okay. So that puts us about six years ago, give or take. So it's kind of the beginning of Chooseify.

1:13:11Maybe even go back even a couple of years before that, somewhere in the 35 to 38 year. I'm going to hijack your question. I think, like I said earlier, there is a massive place for frugality in a five journey, but there's also a massive place for letting loose a little bit. And I think I have come to that realization in the last year or two. And I wish that I had come to that realization years before that. And I think it would just have been marginal, but I think at the margins, it would have, it would have made my life slightly better. And it would have made, you know, family and relationships.

1:13:47It just, it would have, would have made life, like I said, just a little bit better and focusing on the frugality and the savings rate. When I had long since passed a point of certainly coast fi at, you know, by some definitions of fi, I had businesses that were making income, like there was no concern here, but yet it was the same mindset as when I was 28. And I don't think having not updated that, I don't think that made sense. I think every, I mean, really every year you should think about this, but certainly if 10 years go by and you haven't updated your mindset or where you are in life, I think you're probably missing something.

1:14:25So I was maybe asleep at the wheel a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Final question. What purchase have you made in the last 12 months that added the most value to your life? Okay. I'm going to do this kind of a weird one because it's a recurring purchase, but I hired a personal trainer. So I'm paying this monthly and it is not inexpensive by any means, but this is probably the best purchase I've ever made for my health period, hard stop, end of story. I've mentioned this on the episode with Chris Hutchins that came out at the beginning of the year, but I hired this guy named Dean Turner and he has a website.

1:15:00I think it's Dean Turner training.com. He's a Dean T training on Twitter. And that's where he's most active. he is just amazing. And I mean, Ginger, I was always at least the last 10 years ish. I've always been pretty fit and this has revolutionized my health and fitness. And I've put on an incredible amount of strength and muscle. Like we talked about, you know, earlier with like, it's only going one way unless you really work at it. And I've really worked at it. And I think his accountability is amazing. The programming that he gives, it's just like, it's cutting to the essence of strength training.

1:15:37And it's just the smartest thing. I mean, I've searched far and wide. I've done a lot of research on health over the last 10 years, like a lot crazy amount. And this is like the answer as far as I'm concerned. And it's just been better than I could have imagined because it was a leap. Like there was still that essence of frugality, man, to spend a couple hundred dollars a month on online personal training for somebody who is, I'm not meeting in person. That was a big leap, but man, it is just the best money I've ever spent. So So yeah, there's probably lots of like little one-off things that I can mention, but that's the slam dunk for sure.

1:16:10Yeah. I love the best money I've ever spent. That should be the title. Ha. I love it. The hot seat colon the best money I've ever spent. All right. Well, Ginger, this episode went way longer than we anticipated, which is great. This is so much fun. I promise more voicemails. There's no way that we can make this a multiple hour podcast. So we're going to stop there. We are. I had fun. I know you had fun. We're going to do this again. So I'm going to save the voicemails that we didn't play. And I'm going to ask for, if you're out there and you're listening to this episode and you want to send me a voicemail, just go to choose that by.com slash voicemail and just answer those six questions.

1:16:48You've heard them over and over and over again on this episode. Really the best way is to get on my newsletter. Like I said, choose that by.com slash subscribe. And I'll put out a call for these voicemails again, but just send it to me now. I'll save it. And Ginger, when we do this again in a couple of months, we'll hopefully have a whole bunch of them to go through. Yeah. looking forward to it. Awesome. All right. Well, everyone, thank you for being here. This was a lot of fun until next time. Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the choose a fight community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast.

1:17:19So you're listening to this on a podcast player and just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choose a fight.com slash subscribe. And it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsource personal finance show.

1:17:53And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a by local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to chooseify.com slash local and you'll find a list of all of those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. And if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Chooseify episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence?

1:18:29What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then Choose a Vi created a Financial Independence 101 course. That's entirely free. Just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.

1:18:57Thank you.