512 | Getting Personal with Personal Finance | Ginger & Anne

29:20Like I can act now and I might not be able to act in 20 years. And so I'm doing it. Speaking of that, like you did this other really big thing of not just getting rid of half of your possessions, but also leaving like the family home, right? You said you were there, was it 26 years? And that seems like that feels emotional to me to think about doing that. What was that like for you? Or were there things that helped you to make that transition? So that was hard. And there's also all of the reactions of friends and family. You can't leave. You host Thanksgiving. You host Christmas. Where are we going to go?

30:07You know, and all the memories in that home. And again, that whole thing of a reason, a season or a lifetime, I came back to a space of feeling joy and appreciation of what this home gave me. And yes, all the memories that now what we're looking forward to is new memories, new memories and new adventure. We still get to keep all those memories. We still get to keep all that joy. It's not going away because we sold the house. Oh, I love it. Right? Yeah. You know? And so it was funny because I would say that my grieving and my transition probably lasted about six months. And sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm using the mixer for the last time or I'm baking cookies in this house for the last time.

31:00I'm doing this for the last. there were all of these lasts and I just kind of spent time with that. And sometimes I cried. And then once we got to the closing of the house and all the flurry of all that activity and cleaning, I was feeling really pretty okay. And then we did the final walkthrough and we met the new owners. And again, I was not feeling emotional. I was good. We'd done a good job. We'd cleaned every corner. And the wife got out of her car and shook my hand and she said, thank you for selling us your beautiful home. I lost it. I just started crying. I was like, oh, I thought I was good.

31:39I thought I'd done this for six months. But what I reflected on and what I also, I shared this on Facebook, on a Facebook post, and again, it was part of my process of closure was the first night that we did not spend in our home after we had handed over the keys and stuff is I closed my eyes and I thought of each room in the house. And I thought, what story would this room tell? What secrets does the downstairs bathroom have to share? With the teenagers doing their makeup or talking about boys, or what does this closet have to share when it was a fort and the kids slept in it versus, and I just kind of went through each room and savored.

32:24I savored each of those memories and those stories. And it helped. It really helped. And I think the telling of stories helps you move through the letting go and the honoring of those things. And again, just because the thing is gone doesn't mean the memories and the experiences are gone. You get to keep those with you. So again, moving to a place where I don't want to live in regret and sadness and sorrow. I want to celebrate those things. And I want to be excited about the present and the future. And I want to have space for that. And if you have too much guilt and, and, and grieving, there's not as much room, right?

33:08You need to make room for the joy and welcome those new things. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, I asked this question earlier where I said something about like, can you tell us how you have done this with so much joy? And I think I've solved it, which was hearing you talk in the last few minutes and you being so willing to like share your emotion with us and some of it being hard and having that be at the surface. Like, I think that's part of it where you can kind of feel all of those emotions and you can recognize that leaving the family house is hard. Parting with some of your possessions is hard.

33:48and yet by acknowledging that like you can also really access the joy and so that thank you so much and do I have that right I mean I think that's it yes absolutely I think it's kind of like when you have a memorial or a funeral or something else and you you take a moment to remember and honor and appreciate the person, the deceased pet, the moving on, those ceremonies where we spend time and appreciate. And so sometimes that's with things. This is the doll that I played with when I was a child and my mom made outfits for that matched me and how wonderful that was. And I'm so grateful. I'm really grateful for that.

34:42And I'm going to donate this lovely doll to another child to whom that's going to bring joy. And so I guess there ends up being sort of a continuity that instead of me holding onto this and keeping it under the stairs in a box, I get to bring this thing out and it's going to serve in the world and help somebody else. I guess that helps with my letting go, but it's that remembering and being grateful and then giving it up and giving it away. Yeah. I think there's something so powerful about gratitude and it's something I'm really trying to get better at. And yet I, what I notice is how often I fail and how, if I really look at like what my life is like now versus say 10 years ago, there's so many things that are better now, but because they're just woven into my life, I don't really appreciate them.

35:33And it's something that as I get older, I value more and more. And yet I really struggle with is that, you know, you've said that word gratitude a few times. And I wonder if there is anything you can share about like how you have cultivated that. I would say a lot of readings and podcasts and wisdom from different religions and philosophies that keep coming back to gratitude as a practice, right? And if what your life really is, is your thoughts, right? If all we are is our thoughts, what percentage of the time are your thoughts in joy and gratitude and appreciation and curiosity and discovery and problem solving?

36:26And what percentage of the time are they in resentment and anger and frustration and jealousy? And I think when I first read this idea of you are your thoughts, your thoughts are your life. And therefore, if you can have some agency around your thoughts and feelings and direct them, and it's not repress them. It's, Oh, I'm feeling jealous right now. Let's get curious about that. Why am I feeling jealous? What's going on with me? And not beat myself up for feeling jealous or regret or sadness or loss, but dive into that feeling and be curious about it and then let it go. Right? Okay. I've spent some time with you.

37:17I'm not going to let you jealousy on the conversation, we're going to talk and then I'm going to let you go and I'm going to move on to joy, curiosity, celebration, you know, but that just like with your finances, right? Who's in control? Is the credit card, is the debt monster in control of your life and driving your decisions or are you? The same thing with the presence of mind. And again, a lot of this comes from Eastern philosophy. And that was something my dad was also really into, even though he was raised Catholic, but the, of being open and receiving, acknowledging, and then letting it go and it passed through and that you can be intentional about your thoughts, just like with your actions and that that ends up being your life, you know?

38:01And so when I find myself in a place of negativity or whatever, it's like, oh no, I don't want my life to be like this. Stop it. Distract, do something else, you know? So, yeah, I guess that has helped. Oh, my gosh, what a great answer. Here I am asking you this, like, really hard question. I gave you no, like, prep of like, we're going to talk about this. And you just nailed it, right? It was like, so simple and such a takeaway there of like, oh, how do I cultivate gratitude? And it's this framework of, well, think about what your life is. It's your thinking. And that's something that you can control, right?

38:40Like there's such a great takeaway from that. Okay, so let's go back to the story. You've just hit 2 million, your coast by number. You're having this conversation with your husband, like, what does this mean for us? What happened next? We had a vacation planned in Hawaii in January. And we took that week to really kind of so it happened in December. We didn't expect it to happen December. We thought it might happen in January or February. We didn't know when that number was going to do its thing, but it had been kind of sitting there saying this happened, but we, you know, it's December. It's the end of the school semester because we were educators and it's busy and then it's Christmas.

39:23And so we really didn't have time to think about what that meant. And so we were like, okay, once we get to Hawaii and we have this week off, we're going to just spend some time in conversation. We're going to open up the space to think about what this means and what we want to do. And so we had a lot of walks and conversations and a lot of what ifs scenarios, because again, you're removing the structure, you're removing your job and your income and your daily schedule and your house, You're taking away all this structure. So you're going to be in free fall. Right. And, and, and so we're at the precipice of making this decision that, yeah, we're, are we going to do this?

40:05Are we going to wait another year? Are we going to wait six months? You know? And, and so we decided that we were, we were at that place and that, that my husband was also feeling, you know, really satisfied with his career and ready to let go. Sometimes you're not ready to let go. You're in a building process or you're in a training spot. You want to get to a place where you're at peace with letting go and handing things off. And so we felt like we could be there. And so then I think it was in February that he gave his notice. And then in March, I gave my notice. And I think I emailed you. I was like, I'm about to go in and talk to my boss.

40:46I'm so nervous. That was awesome. You did it. Yes, yes. And so here's another snippet, other than a reason, a season or a lifetime for stuff and people. The other little mantra that I've had in my head that I got from The Artist's Way, it's a book called The Artist's Way, and she says, jump and the net will appear. and I have said that to myself more times in the last year the net will appear the net will appear you will figure stuff out you you have always landed on your feet right and and even when you fell sideways you rolled and you got back up again and so we have jumped and we now have a place to stay so that's really good um but the next part the next phase of what is life going to look like next.

41:43We don't know that chapter yet. So that's sort of where I leave you. I have some ideas, but we made the leap. And then a lot of it was kind of like, well, you have to do these things to get ready to sell your house. And again, from the Choose FI community and other people, we decided to sell our house on our own instead of using a realtor. And so that was a big learning process and we did it. Yeah. You know, and so that's another empowering thing we figured out. And also the other people told us that, oh, you guys can do this. You can do this. Yeah. My question was, is it, was it as stressful as we all hear?

42:27Like, was it, it sounds like it was worth it to you. It was worth it. I won't say it wasn't stressful. and because the market is so hot, we were receiving full price offers on our house before we had even listed our house. It's kind of like when people show up at the party and you're still in your bathrobe and curlers and you're not ready. We had people making us offers and we're like, we're still getting the trim on the doors. Come back next month. Go away. I'm not ready to show yet. So it was stressful, but we just knew that it was going to be an intense couple month process and that we would get through it.

43:05And then we had some time to wrap things up with the house, with the stuff, with saying all our goodbyes. So it was good. But we're now, as soon as we get settled, then it's that next question of now what? And I will tell you in January where my brain was, was Tim's going to retire. We're going to move. I'm going to find a job because I'm only 53 and that's what I do. And I will apply with school district. I had already gotten certified in the state of Washington. And so that's just what we do, you know? And so I actually started applying for jobs in the spring, flew down here to Puyallup and interviewed for a job.

43:49And I was really excited about, and then when I flew back and I started thinking about getting the job, I was like panicking because it was all going to happen at the same time in August with us moving, us going back and moving my mom down here and then start of the school year. And I thought, oh my God, oh my God, what have I done by going after this job? And then, you know, my husband and I talked and we looked at some numbers and thought, you know what, if I don't work for six months, that's going to be okay. And we're going to just buy some time to move and get settled leisurely. And rather than jump into the first thing or the first job, give myself the space to find out what I want to do or what the right opportunity is.

44:41And is it full-time or is it just part-time? Or do I take on contract work? That's part of that. what is this new opportunity look like now? Or do I take the whole year off? Right? And then it's like, all of a sudden, these things that I'd never thought, because what I always do is I find a job in the fall, because I'm a teacher. And so you just do that. And so I realized that for last six months, I was kind of thinking on autopilot. And then I did, I was a second runner up. And the reason why I didn't get the position was because I was not available to come in two weeks early in August because of my move, I did full disclosure with the move.

45:19And they said, this other person is not. And I said, thank you. Thank you. It was such a privilege to come talk to you and learn about your team and your district. I don't regret doing it, but I also learned a lot in the moment of, I'm not ready for this right now. And that's okay. And so then we reprioritized and looked at our finances and said, we've got some room to breathe and we're just going to do this. We're going to embrace this transition and figuring this out. And we're not going to jump into anything too quickly, so that we make the right step. And we take time to explore. So that's where we're at right now.

45:54We'll have an address, we'll have a place to sleep. And then comes the exploration. And what will you do next? Oh, my gosh, so exciting. So the idea is you've got this rental for the year. And that gives you time to figure out what you want to do? And is it also about like figuring out if you want to buy a house? Is that something you're thinking about? Yeah. Yeah. Do we want to buy? Does it make sense to buy? Because I've also listened to some wonderful podcasts, again, given how high interest rates are, you know, of talking through the rent versus buy, does it actually make sense? We are in a position having sold our home of 26 years that we think we should be able to buy something outright.

46:39But still, there's cost involved with all of that. I mean, we just saw how much it costs to sell our house. And because the other thing is that if we don't like it here, we're not going to stay. That's the other sort of open thing is what if we don't like it? Well, if we don't like it, we can change. Oh, wow. Because we are writing the story as we go. We all are. And I guess that's what's, it's like we all have been all along, but we have been duty bound and responsibility bound to our families and our children and our parents. And it's not that we've let all of that go, but we're just at a different stage that allows us to do this and experiment.

47:24And I'm grateful. I'm grateful to be able to do that and say that. And yeah, so I don't know what the next chapter is, Ginger. Yeah. What's the thing that you are most nervous about, about having done this transition? Because I could see a lot of different things coming up, you know, for people in this position where it's like, I don't have like my community. I don't quite know what I'm doing for work. If I'm taking off from work, I don't know how I'm going to fill my days. Like for you, what is the thing that is feels like it has the most anxious energy around? So I would say community. And if I'm not working, how am I going to fill my days?

48:06Those are two. Community is really important. And you can't wait for community to come to you. You have to go out and seek it. And so I will say to help us in this transition, one of the things we did where I asked my husband to do a crazy thing is they said, there's this conference called Economy in Cincinnati. Do you want to go meet other people that are doing what we're doing and just talk to them? And he said, yeah, a little skeptical at first. So taking that plunge and again, diving into that community of people that are doing things differently and they don't talk to you like you're crazy.

48:51They're like, wow, that's really cool. Tell me your story. Oh, that sounds neat. We could try that because back home in the structure of everybody else's lives and routines, when you deviate, that's disruptive. And some people don't know what to think about that. And maybe they think you're crazy or that you are disrespectful or that you're, I don't know. I've kind of run up against a variety of different feelings around what you're doing by retiring or coasting sooner than is normal, right? You talk to older people, that's not no, no, you need to go find a job. So in going to economy and talking with all these people that are doing stuff differently, it's just very refreshing and you don't feel that judgment, you just feel open to share.

49:40So I have plugged in to the Tacoma, Olympia and Kitsap FI groups here with Chris and Kristen Young, whom I met at Economy. And they said, you're coming to Washington. We'll hook you up. And so, because I know how important community is. And so I haven't met them yet, but we've corresponded and they've looped me into some groups. We also have friends down here. They were Alaska friends who moved down here about four years ago and have been dropping hints about us coming down here too. So we have them and they've invited us to their church, which has been delightful and wonderful. So finding a church community.

50:21And then I'm a singer. I've always been in choirs my whole life. So one of my main things is I've got to find a choir. And so I reached out immediately because this is audition season. If you're going to be in a choir for the season, you audition in August or September. So that's, again, sort of my go-tos for starting to get into something, things that bring me joy is I'm auditioning on Monday for a choir. And I don't know that that means I'll get in, but I'm just, I'm like, I'm just gonna do it, right? Yeah. I'm just gonna go do it. I'm just gonna show up. Waste of nothing. That's right. It's that experiment.

50:57Just keep putting yourself out there because you don't know what else is gonna happen. And then there's these Choose FI groups and then there's the church group. I saw that my alumni group from the University of Redlands is doing an alumni thing in the greater Seattle area. And I was like, I could actually go to one of those. Up in Alaska, we don't, that almost never happens, right? Because it's too far away. And so I'm like, there's just things that I could go to and be curious and meet people. And I don't know where these opportunities are going to go yet. But unless I put myself out there and find what I'm resonating with now, then I'm not going to be able to plug into that.

51:42I will also share that at this time in my life, part of what has given me courage to do this is since our younger two have just launched, right? And they're out in the world doing their things. And of course, as the parent, you're busy coaching them saying, apply for that internship, go for that scholarship. You should present at that conference. Absolutely. I mean, you're their coach. And it's like, I kind of thought I need to take my own medicine. They're doing it. We can do it too. So it's kind of fun, a totally different season of life, but to be like this week, our son is moving into a new apartment and he was apartment hunting and shopping in Madison, Wisconsin while we're doing it here in Tacoma.

52:28What did you find? How much are you paying? Are utilities included? And so like we're having those same conversations, but we're in a totally different space in our lives. And I would also say, I feel spoiled in a way because with our older kids, we have gotten to do the grandparent thing. We've gotten to do the grandparent thing for over 10 years and luxuriate in that and have those relationships and build those relationships. And so I guess part of what's scary, you know, building community, I feel like I have some clues about starting to build community. But part of what's going to be hard is maintaining those relationships from home, from Alaska, still making space to welcome people in your life, being intentional about whether you set up FaceTime or Zoom or what does that look like now that we have stepped away so that we can still maintain relationship and not just when you're here for a long weekend, but how do you maintain relationship?

53:29And we're learning that. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's end on talking about recommendations broadly conceived. So first of all, I'll say a while back, you had mentioned that it was helpful to hear about other people experimenting and doing the mini sabbaticals or the sabbaticals, the mini retirements. And I think you were referring to Jillian Johns Rood's podcast. Yeah, called Retire Often. That's what it is. Yes. It's really good. It's a short series. I think it's only like eight episodes. But if you haven't listened to it, it's really fun to hear people sort of at different stages of their life with different incomes, their experience with taking three week breaks or three month breaks.

54:18So thank you for reminding us about that. And you also mentioned that The Artist's Way was a book that has been helpful for you. Are there other books or podcasts that they could be money related or not that you have read in the last year or listened to in the last year that you thought were helpful? I will say that, so not finance, but Ozan Barol and Famous Failures podcast. Okay. and Think Like a Rocket Scientist. And what I was attracted to with Think Like a Rocket Scientist and Famous Failures is doing things differently, challenging the status quo, questioning your presumptions the way you've always done things, going back to first principles, the ideas in his book and the disruption that is caused when you question what you've always done and you try something new and how that leads to such tremendous growth.

55:29We as humans, we like safety, right? We're geared for safety and comfort. And the thing is though, when you get too comfortable, you actually get bored. And so finding that space between where I have enough comfort, and I have enough challenge to make things interesting, right? And then you can make things really interesting by quitting your job and selling all your house, all your possessions, right? And we can survive that for short periods of time, that kind of disruption. but he interviews amazing people from all over about things they tried and experimented businesses, inventions, moving, traveling, and they just have fascinating stories.

56:20And again, their stories in the Famous Failures podcast gave me courage to try. Because we get, I feel like when you're a kid, You try all this different stuff. You have no fear. And then something happens as you get more settled and you get more secure and more protective of your stuff and of your lifestyle that you don't want discomfort. I don't know. And so we sometimes get stuck holding on to where we are because we don't want to step out of our comfort zone. And listening to these stories of people who tried and failed and then got back up on their feet again. And what they learned about it, it gives you the courage to disrupt yourself, disrupt the status quo, to step out of your comfort zone and go, this is good for me.

57:11This is good for me. This is good for me. It's like those people that do the cold plunges and stuff, which I'm not, I like the sauna part, but the cold flinch. But I would say that was starting with Ozan Varol. And that actually got me through the first winter of the pandemic, because I needed to distract myself from the pandemic. I needed to learn, I needed to travel, I needed to get my brain out of being stuck in my house and on Zoom. And to think that there was going to be a day when we could have dinner together and birthday parties together again, you know, all those things we took for granted.

57:49So I got through his whole season and then wrote to him when it was over. And I was like, no, what am I going to listen to? What am I going to do to, you know, help me get through? And, and that's when I shifted to Whitney Johnson's Disrupt Yourself podcast. And so those, those were two really great ones to get me thinking differently and to give me the courage to think outside the box and experiment and have the courage to try stuff. And so I started trying stuff at work. I started trying stuff in the kitchen. I started, you know, I was like, I think I've sort of gotten stagnant and I don't want to be stagnant.

58:33So what am I going to do to shift things up? And then I found shoes up high and then we just kind of turned. And now we're here. And now we're here. Yeah, I love those recommendations. I think one of the most interesting things about people, about us humans, is that we're really bad at knowing what will make us happy. And so like, even as we're having this conversation about like, people don't like uncomfortable things, you know, yeah, I don't want to be uncomfortable. And yet I've had that experience that you described where it's too much comfort. Like this thing that you think that you want to, you know, be on the couch and have absolutely no responsibilities feels really good for about two minutes.

59:18And, you know, we have to find a challenge. It reminds me of I hope I don't get this name wrong. Alex Honnold, the guy who did the free solo ascent on Yosemite, he's this famous climber who does these crazy, crazy climbs. And I saw this clip of him the other day where he was talking about how important it is to do physically dangerous things. I don't want to do physically dangerous things, but he had this really interesting perspective where he said, it changes how you view stress in the rest of your life. And, you know, he said, I go to the airport and I see people freaking out because shoot, their flight got canceled.

59:59And what are they going to do? They're going to be three hours late, you know, but him having this experience of real danger means that in his daily life, he experiences those things at a completely different level. And that's sort of like what you're talking about too. And that's the kind of thing that helps move me towards risk. You know, I think in a positive way in terms of, yeah, like we're designed to do these things. And if we kind of can take some of these risks, it can sort of reset the measure by which we understand the stress in the rest of our lives. And to understand as both you and Brad have mentioned that we are fighting our amygdala, right?

1:00:43We are fighting our reptilian brain that looks for signs of danger. and we amplify that. And so we do all these things to protect, protect, protect. And so when you have those adventures, when you have those momentous things where physically, or maybe it's emotionally, you survived a social dinner party that you were dreading and you came out of the other end, like, you know, I actually had a good time. When you do that, you can talk back to your reptilian brain that goes, I'd rather stay home and watch Netflix. Go, you say that, but really remember last time when you went rock climbing and it was terrifying and exhilarating, you got, you have to talk back to yourself, right?

1:01:33And then push yourself to take action. And even if it's just baby steps, right? But then you feel proud of yourself that I know what Netflix is. I know what, and it's not, you can do Netflix as well. It's fine. But if you decide that what you want out of your life, that you don't want to be stagnant, that you want to, then you have to make yourself do these other things. And so again, putting yourself out in situations that cause you fear and having it turn out. Okay. Again, like you were saying, helps bring down your anxiety about other things where you're like, Oh, you know, that's nothing compared to the time of, we're going to just chillax here.

1:02:14And then I think that also helps you be that rock for other people who get spun up around you. And you can just kind of take it in perspective and kind of breathe. And I know I appreciate those people in my life too. And I've had my spun up moments. I'm certainly sometimes the person that needs to be talked down, but I feel that the more you take risks and you come out on the other side that it just gives you that perspective of, I got this, I can figure it out. You know, I love that about engineers because that's like all they do is problem solve, problem solve, problem solve. And so they just know there's almost no problem I can't figure out or that I can't Google or that I can't ask somebody.

1:02:57And so they're just pretty unflappable. So unless of course the structure is going to collapse, then they get a little upset. And so anyway, I appreciate all of these readings to understand my programming as a human and be able to take steps to overcome that and embrace risk to live the life I want to live. Because living with regret, that is the greatest fear. I don't want to live with regret. I want to say I did the things or I did most of the things. And I want to be able to look back in those moments at the end and feel satisfied. You know, not like I still have this itch that I never scratched.

1:03:39Yeah. Sounds like you're doing a pretty good job. Trying. Okay. I'm going to end with two recommendations. One is specifically for Anne and anyone else, I guess. But you have to watch Free Solo. Okay. You're going to write that down. Yeah, that's really, really good. And then my other recommendation is not about finances at all, but it's for the people out there who connected with what Anne was saying about seasonal affect disorder and how disruptive that can be, especially to people in our neck of the woods where we have these really, really dark winters. And so I just wanted to share this because a lot of people don't know it.

1:04:17A lot of people have heard of the happy lamps or sometimes they're called sad lamps, right? I have one. Yep, yep. I have one as well. But what a lot of people don't know, they don't actually like read the directions on them. And so they get these small lamps that are like the size of a book. And then they set them back so far that they aren't actually effective. And if you look at what you're actually supposed to do with those small ones, it's something like six inches from your face, which is just like really awkward. And so if you're going to give this a try, go on Amazon and get one of the big ones, right?

1:04:54The ones that are like 24 inches. I don't know if that's right, but something like that, right? And then you can just have it sitting there while you're doing your computer work or having your breakfast or whatever, and you'll have a way different experience. So that's our tip for today. Get your giant happy lamp. We ordered ours from Canada because the Canadians wrestle with this too. And again, it's big. You have it between six and 12 inches from your face. You use it at the same time every day because it sets your circadian rhythm. And I'm a believer. Yeah, they definitely work. Yeah. Okay.

1:05:29Well, thank you so much, Anne, for being willing to have this conversation and not just being willing to be on the show, but to tell us so much about who you are and being vulnerable with us about what this experience has been like for you. I think it's really helpful to hear from someone who is doing the things, like doing the things right now and hearing about what that's like. And even just hearing you talking through some of those things that are hard, it gives me more courage just thinking about, gosh, she can do it and I can do it too. So I think it's really helpful for people to hear that.

1:06:07And so thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. And thank you all. I hope you're still with us and we will see you next time on ChooseFI.

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1:07:17And if you're just getting started with FI, or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Chooseify episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple of years old at this point, it still stands up. And it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence? What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life? And then Choose a Vi created a financial independence 101 course that's entirely free.

1:07:52Just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.

1:08:05Thank you.