607 | Other Mountains I Want to Climb | Diania Merriam

29:13Just financial planning or goal setting, the purpose of it is that when you reach that milestone or that target that you've been aiming towards, you make some kind of change. So you're saving for a house, you reach that goal, you buy the house. You're saving for financial independence, you reach that goal, you quit your job, and something changes about your life. But my path has been that FI set the trajectory and then the journey has made the goal irrelevant. I'm not FI now. And I'm not poo-pooing the goal of FI. I would not change anything about my life if I reached financial independence. And so what's the purpose of that goal?

29:59It's almost like I don't even care anymore. The investments are quietly compounding in the background and I will reach it eventually. But if I'm not going to make any big shifts when I get there, then why does it even matter? I'm already living the life that I would want if I had this FI status. That whole switch in perspective has made me much more willing to spend because I don't have a date when I'm going to start drawing down on my portfolio. I literally don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea when I'll stop making money. I have no idea when I'll start drawing down. It's kind of made me more open to just taking risks and trying things.

30:41I feel a lot more of a comfort level around spending. I've recognized that my risk has flipped from running out of money to running out of time. Because of that, I am much more willing to waste money than to waste time. Man, that's another good one. That risk has flipped. Yeah. There's no way you're going to run out of money. We're all going to run out of time. Right. But it's how you use that time. Right. And I have a lot of experience in wasting time. And so that now at this point in my financial journey, that feels worse than wasting money. When we were getting married a couple years ago, I had in my head, I could never imagine spending 20 grand on a wedding.

31:30And in this day and age, it's just nothing, right? When I first started looking around, I thought I was going to have a really lame wedding and I was going to be spending like 50 grand and that really bothered me. I think we netted out at like 30 grand or something like that. That whole experience and spending that money and I thought that it was going to be like hard to spend. But then at the end of the day, it made like no difference in my life or our net worth. I just dropped$29 ,000 on a car. And I feel nothing. I mean, I really love the car. I'm really glad that I bought it. But I don't feel any kind of scarcity around it.

32:12I just feel abundance that we have all of the resources that we need to do what we want. With our time, We have an abundance of time, energy, and money. And so what does that say about us if we're so unwilling to enjoy that? What's the point of it if I'm going to be tied in knots over spending money? I love the psychological safety of it because I think so many of us in the fight community have a natural scarcity mindset. there are so many things in life that serve you well until they don't that doesn't necessarily mean it was the optimal strategy but for whatever weird alchemy of what makes up you that was the strategy that worked for you until it doesn't i think that's where i think about this skill of spending when it comes to frugality is being frugal has served me really well in life and I think I've lived a great life, but I have now transitioned to a point where I don't think there's any world where I could possibly run out of money.

33:25I still have that scarcity mindset. I really honestly do, which is kind of silly. It's gotten a lot better, but I still haven't gotten over. So like when you said you don't really think about money, you don't think about spending. I'm like, I'm not there yet. I've gotten so much better, but I'm trying to celebrate these little wins and really lean into things to see like, is there discomfort? And if there's not discomfort, because I know it's not going to make any material difference on my actual finances. Like I know ordering my$90 grocery order from Wegmans and having it delivered and it being$105 instead of 90 is not going to make any material difference.

34:00I'm not an idiot, obviously, but yet that was something that I needed to challenge myself. I went up to New Jersey to visit a couple of friends from my mastermind group. these guys are both spenders and they're both quite wealthy. They just don't think about dropping money. You know, like we went to Whole Foods and bought dinner for the night and bought steaks and it was like$120. And I'm like, there was no, like, that's like a week of groceries for me normally, you know, like there was just no thought. There was no thought to the price of something, which again, if taken too far is not, I'm not arguing that this is the ideal way to live.

34:34It's just, it was so interesting to look at someone who's just living their life and they're not, they're not worried about the price of something all the time. And there was some aspect of liberation there for me. So again, I'm always looking for like little clues, little lessons that I could take away. It doesn't mean I'm going to go out tomorrow and buy$50 steaks every night. That's not the lesson I'm trying to take for myself or trying to impart here, but you really can try to look at those areas where maybe you think you want to make a change in your life and take little lessons, even from more extreme lessons that you see.

35:07So talk to me about not really thinking about money. And so you're telling me like you go into a restaurant and you order a hundred times out of a hundred, exactly what you want, irrespective of the price. Absolutely. Because I have these times of in the morning getting lost in the recesses of my own mind, right? Like I ponder this stuff a lot of like, how am I using my money to create a good life? And how am I using all of my resources in a way that is life-affirming? And stressing about money when there's little utility to that just seems like a waste of energy. I also think about how FI attracts a scarcity-minded person because it gives this promise of certainty.

35:52When you reach your FI number, you can be certain that you'll always have enough money. A lot of people don't feel that emotional benefit when they get there because they're stuck in the kind of scarcity and like tracking every dollar. But also the promise of certainty is never there. You know, like I had to get comfortable with the fact that like financial modeling is built on assumptions and my life is really dynamic and there's a lot of unknowns. And that's not to like create a lot of fear. I think there is a fearful aspect of saying that. I can imagine people listening to this having, you know, tightening of their chests like, what do you mean my financial planning is uncertain?

36:33But it's also like a good thing that life is uncertain. Like you can't possibly anticipate now the opportunities that present themselves tomorrow. And so becoming more comfortable with uncertainty and saying like, you know what, like a black swan event could wipe me out. Economy could go under tomorrow. and that's like what's funding our lifestyle right now. I mean, my biggest fear is like a health scare. And so I sit with those fears and the uncertainty around that and my scarcity type A brain says, let's plan for it. Let's pad the numbers. Let's go into the spreadsheets and do all these what if models.

37:15But the abundant side of me says I can handle anything life throws at me. I think that helps me just relax. It just helps me relax. We're in a financial position right now that we just don't have to worry. And as things present themselves, we're going to figure it out. You are a very quotable person. You have these really deep, pithy quotes that I've been actually featuring you. I don't even know if you know in my newsletter. Well, here's another quote from Diana. And yeah, a couple of them that I really like tie in here, which is to me, success with money is that I don't think about it anymore.

37:54Yeah. And you know, we just had the economy conference in March and we had this incredible presentation from Roger who has no last name. He's our Oprah. He's just Roger. And you guys will see his video coming out soon. But when we were talking about what he was going to talk about on stage. One of the things he posed to me, it still irks me a little bit. He asked, are we using FI as an excuse to have a smaller life? And I've really thought about how that might apply to me in like sneaky ways that I didn't realize. And so it made me think about this interview that I had where someone had asked me, they were asking me about the trajectory of economy.

38:40And I took this big 40 grand loss the first year. But what enabled me to do that is that I had a six-figure income at the time I was working. That 40 grand loss essentially was what I was going to put into my after-tax brokerage that year. So instead, I invested it in my business. That's the way it worked out in the long run. But at the time, it felt like maybe I'll never earn this back. I mean, it took me three events to earn that back. And so there was a lot of uncertainty of like, is that money just gone or not? And I think I found comfort in this income that I had coming in that was able to shoulder that.

39:17When someone was asking me like, okay, well, like what about today? Would you start economy today where you don't have that income coming in from your corporate career? And at the time I answered like, I don't know if I'd be willing to take that risk because I don't have that income coming in. It's not like I'm going to sell investments to pursue my dreams. And I would say in recent months, I've even shifted on that. I think I could take another 40 grand loss on pursuing something that I really wanted to do, especially because, again, I don't have this timeline of hitting a goal and drawing down or a timeline on when I'm never going to earn money again.

39:57I think that's a scary thought too. people feel like they have to plan around that. But when you quit your job really young, to say it's not a blood oath that you're never going to make any income again, right? And so I think I've really shifted my position on that. And I've thought a lot about the way that I have set myself up now. Is there any kind of restriction that makes me feel like I can't pursue the things that I want to do because maybe they cost more than I anticipated? it. It's not in the plan. It's not in my long-term financial plan. And that's really shifted for me. And I think it's this embracing abundance, embracing the fact that money creates options.

40:41And I want to explore those options. Like what a waste of this privilege if I don't use these resources to explore my interests. To kind of paraphrase, pursuing FI, is it, are we intentionally living a smaller life or are we living smaller lives than we could have otherwise? Right. It's an uncomfortable question to sit with. But does that mean by reaching FI and stopping working and stopping having income or just pursuing FI from the very beginning? What's his contention? Or the restrictions around your financial planning or the way that you live out your FI plans. So the example that he gave was, we were talking in the context of FI is almost can be a tool to like help you realize more of who you already are.

41:32And so someone who is maybe an introvert or a little bit of a recluse, they quit their job and then they just don't see anyone anymore. is that a good thing for them or is that okay they reached this goal and now they've isolated themselves is that really them living their best life that was kind of the the example that he gave in his speech because you are who you are whether you have money or you don't right i view fi as the epitome of living an intentional life and that it's the lead domino for finding space in your life to actually pursue what's important. I feel like that's a straw man, like the introvert who's just going to sit around and do nothing.

42:23That just seems a little far-fetched. I can't think of anyone who I've met in the fight community who, and no, granted that's self-selecting, let's be clear, because the people I've met in the fight community are people who are coming out to events, but many of them, you know, just by either how they describe themselves or how they carry themselves, like myself included, are introverts. But yet we're still going out of our comfort zone and we're leaning into community. And I think obviously both of us feel that community is essentially important. I don't really agree with Roger there. Like, I think all the good things in FI, in life, frankly, in my life have happened because I've pursued FI.

43:01I think so many people delude themselves into believing that their jobs, that these random jobs, that these randomly picked at 22 years old are somehow their reason to be on this planet. No. That is preposterous. No. The fact that of the tens of billions of items of different things you could do with your time and energy and spirit and brain that you just happened to pick that at 22 or 32 and just fell backwards into the perfect thing. Like it's just ridiculous. It defies any logic. I think a lot of people are looking for excuses to continue doing what they want to do because they're scared of living a bigger life.

43:43They're scared of pursuing FI. They're looking for excuses to keep themselves in these limited little jobs and diluting themselves into thinking, oh, if I just have a little more money, I'm going to be able to do bigger things someday. Someday in the future, that big thing's coming. But nobody's promised tomorrow. Let's be clear. There is no promise. There's no promise. If you stop working at 55, that you're going to live to 95. There's no promise that if you stop working at 25, you're going to live to 27. There's no promise, which is why I think for most of us in the real world who are stressed from our jobs constantly have no space to do anything, to think about anything broadly.

44:26Pursuing FI is the one reliable way. Everything in life is a bet. Yeah, you could win the lottery. Yeah, you could start a startup that's going to make a billion dollars or you could just start saving some money. right what's the most likely path to success there this is obvious it's replicable hitting the lottery that's not replicable people can come up with stories all they want but the most replicable way to living a great life is just saving some money getting some space financially and then be able to do what you want no matter where you are like you said you're not you and brad are not fine no your coast fine is what is is what i'm hearing the definition of but You don't even care what the definition is.

45:09Right. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's like two things can exist at once, right? We can say that five sets the stage to live a big abundant life and do what you want with your time. That is true. And yet you also feel restriction around getting your groceries delivered. Yeah. Those two things are true at the same time. So it's like we're grappling with that. There's always a tension. There's a tension in everything. Oh, yeah. It's like in what ways are you enjoying your freedom and living that full life and spending your money in ways that feel creative and life affirming? And in what ways are you feeling restriction and you're holding yourself back because this decision is potentially not financially optimal or you're afraid of wasting money or you're just so that groove in your brain of I am frugal and I optimize my finances, that groove is so deep that it is hard for you to even take a risk on wasting money.

46:14But I mean, when it comes to spending, here's another framework that I think has really helped me. We all talk about spending money that's aligned with our values, right? I'm very annoyed by that phrase because I think for the most part, most of us don't know what our values are. We either are so wrapped up in our social conditioning that what we think are our values are really just our social programming, or we've never really taken the time to sit down and think deeply about that. What do I value? And how do I know that that's true and it's not just social programming? Or because it sounds good.

46:50Most people wouldn't say, well, I don't value my family. You should say that because you're not going to say I don't value that, but maybe you value other things more. Maybe you value individuality and authenticity more. Who knows? That's a very individual thing and there's no one value is greater than the other. This idea that I'm okay with spending money as long as I know it's going to be worth it. There's no way to know that. No, you can't. There's so many times where I spend money on something and I think it's a good decision. I've been thoughtful about it. I've been intentional about that spending.

47:26And afterwards, I'm like, damn it, that was a waste. You will not know until afterwards. And so I think there's also that tension of like, I'm afraid to make a mistake or like spend my money in a way that like isn't worth it in the end. And I'm going to feel bad about that. But wasting money is not the same as wasting time. Because wasting time, you'll never get that time back. But when you waste money, you can always make more. Yeah. What you just described is also like, a major mental model that people need to figure out in life that would make their decision making so much better. It's like the concept that the poker player, Annie Duke has talked about on this podcast and many others called resulting, which is looking at the result.

48:10And then if it was a positive result, then therefore it was a good decision. If it was a negative result, then therefore it was a bad decision. And very simply, life doesn't work that way. You make the best decision you have and you can at the time, with the information you have available. And sometimes it turns out great. Sometimes it turns out poorly, but that doesn't reflect on the decision. This to me is one of the most important mental models. And it's so hard to understand because we're just used to, Hey, that turned out great. Of course it was a good decision. Or you can make what you know is a terrible decision.

48:43Like people who get in the car and drive under the influence just because they didn't get in an accident that time. Was that a good decision? No, it was a horrific decision. Horrific. On a long enough timeline, there's only one way that's ending. Let's be clear. You need to think about on a long enough timeline, if I ran this scenario 10 ,000 times, did I do everything I could to make this the right outcome? Sometimes it's probabilistic. Sometimes it comes out good. Sometimes it comes out poorly. But if you make the best decision and you try to constantly update your decision making, that leads to a better life, I think.

49:17But it also, I will say the time that I know I spend and I'm sure listeners spend on grappling with these decisions can drive you nuts and it can be an energy drain. So I'll give you a good example around spending. I talked about dropping$29 ,000 on this car last month. I had wanted this car for a long time. The 2023 CX-9, they stopped making it in 2023. Okay. Now it's the CX-90 and that was too big for me. I didn't like that. I knew that I wanted this car, but my 2010 Mazda 3 had 120 ,000 miles on it. It still had a lot of life left in it. And my stepson is 13. I thought, well, I should just keep this until he's driving and then I can give him this car and then get the other car.

50:04That just felt like practically, that made more sense to me. And I think I have this identity around I'm not a materialistic person. And that is true. I have a lot of pride in the fact that I'm not a materialistic person. So what does it say about me to buy a newer car, even though it's used, a newer car before I actually really need it? I think the discrepancy with my identity was hard for me to move forward with that decision. But I had identified the car. There were a lot of practical reasons why that car worked for my family better than my current car. I had researched it. I identified exactly the price I wanted to pay.

50:49I set up alerts. I made a very thought, like I was settled on this car and I was just kind of like hemming and hawing on this for over a year. Okay. And then I went to the Slow Fire Retreat with the Pioneers in May. The people at this retreat, it was all about lifestyle design. I highly recommend it. I already bought my ticket for 2027 because it was a phenomenal event. And I'll be there in October, actually. It's so good. It's so good. And the people at this event are grappling with really big life decisions. Should I quit my job? Should I start this business? All of this stuff. And I'm sitting there grappling with, should I buy this car?

51:29You know what I mean? It just felt such a small thing in comparison to the other people at this event. Because I had already done the big things. I already quit my job. I already started the business. My husband had already quit his job. It just feels like we should be desensitized to these kinds of decisions by now since we've already made the big ones. The event just really shifted my mindset to become even more of an abundance mindset. And it's funny. We made these commitments on what experiments are we going to have at the end of this? And like, what things are we going to test and what things are, you know, they actually had us like come up with experiments and action plans around like big goals and around life design stuff.

52:13This wasn't even like one of my big goals. This was just like something that has been bothering me for a long time that I have been way overthinking this decision. And so I just decided when I was there, like, I'm going to go home and buy the damn car. and then 48 hours later I had the car. I just went home and immediately did it and it's like the amount of relief that I felt that like it's just it's done. I don't have to think about this anymore. I don't have to hem and haw about this car. It's just done. There was a lot of relief in that and yeah I spent$29 ,000 and like same thing like with the wedding.

52:49I just I don't even notice it in the grand scale of our net worth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much there. And so first Jess from the finance was on our episode 472 in an episode, the cure for the boring middle for anybody who's looking for, for an insight into her process on lifestyle design and, and how circular and iterative it is. That was a really, really good episode. So definitely go back and listen to that one. I mean, Diana, this reminds me of like, there is attention in everything. I have a couple of your quotes. Somebody who's not listening critically could think that Diana is being a fraud here.

53:31I don't think that at all. And I don't think you're a fraud for buying the car, obviously, or even for wanting the car. A, there's attention in everything. And B, there's a practical reality of life that it was time for this car yeah and that's why you're listening to this diane and i are going through these aspects of our lives because what this exact thing might not be applicable to you the grocery delivery the whatever like the broader meta concepts are you felt like your decisions were small at this slow fight retreat because you didn't work through the other ones but it wasn't small because it wasn't small to you.

54:11It's where you are in your life. And that's really important. And so these quotes are, it's not enough to not buy the Tesla. In this case, Tesla, I want to not want the Tesla. Yeah. And then the second one, which is really interesting, is the less materialistic I am, the more idealistic I get to be. Yeah. I've been saying that quote for years. I think what it represents is this reorientation away from materialism and appreciating what you already have versus like always looking for the next thing I think is a cure for wanting more is like the appreciation of what you already have. And when you don't want things, you don't have to negotiate with yourself to not do them or not buy them in pursuit of whatever your financial goal is.

55:00And I think that applies maybe much more towards the beginning of your journey where you do have this hypervigilance on spending and like, how do you deal with that when you want things, but you also want financial independence. And so you're having to make choices there. That framework can be really useful in navigating desires. Just change your desires, right? And you could do that in a variety of ways. Like you can think about what is influencing you? What content are you ingesting? Who are you surrounding yourself with and how that influences what you want? I still maintain that. I sat for a long time with why I wanted this car.

55:41I wouldn't say that it was out of like unappreciation for my current car because it was kind of a beater. It was this 2010 Mazda 3. When cell phones became more advanced, the Bluetooth wouldn't work anymore. So I couldn't listen to podcasts when I was driving. And it had this sticky dashboard that felt trashy to me. No one would look at my car and think I was a millionaire, which I actually really like that. I like the self-wealth aspect of it. But also, I have a dog who's 130 pounds that I was squeezing into the backseat. And when we would drive around as a family, whether we were in my car or my husband's car, it's like the dog is all over the kid.

56:22Everyone's upset in the backseat. So practically speaking, there was a lot of reasons for us to get a bigger car. But I also think the other practical aspect of it was being able to control the timing of big purchases really appeals to me. I was a little uneasy about like, yes, I wanted to run my car into the ground. But if I did that, then that could put me in a position where I'm scrambling to make a financial decision on a big purchase because it's a necessity now. I mean, we did the same thing with our water heater and our HVAC. We replaced them before it was like a thousand percent necessary to avoid that scramble.

57:00So there are practical things outside of the fact that I've had that car for eight years. It served me really well. There were practical reasons, but it was like, it is really nice driving this car right now. I mean, it feels like a spaceship. I'm operating a spaceship in comparison to my 2010 Mazda 3. I don't think that it's a problem at this stage of my financial journey to maybe enjoy some luxuries that I wouldn't allow myself before. And the only reason why this is possible, that I spent$29 ,000 last month on a car, is because I bought my first car for$7 ,000 when I was 17. And I bought my last car at 31 years old for$6 ,000 cash.

57:45that is what set me up to be able to enjoy this now without having a lot of ramifications on my financial journey. Yeah. That's a lot of five, right? You're front loading. I used to call it front loading the sacrifice. I don't love that anymore because there's no sacrifice in this, but it's just you're front loading the harder decisions and that enables you to have much more freedom. And that doesn't mean spending money necessarily. It might mean something else Because again, the less materialistic I am, the more idealistic I get to be. Regardless of whether you buy the car, that's the framework.

58:19It's the mental framework. There is a cost to everything. Even things you own. Space. Seeing it around. Having to store things. Just having a big enough house for something. Time, attention, cleaning things. There's a cost to all of this. And frankly, the fewer possessions you organize your life around, the more you can actually organize your life around the important things. relationships, ideas, deep thinking purpose. And that's not to say, be a minimalist for everybody. That's kind of the kick that I'm on now, but it goes back to something else we were talking about before where, where my mind went to, for me, I want to get down to my essence in terms of like, you talked about scheduling.

59:03I don't want to be a hermit. I don't want to not do anything, but I want to subtract now and then add back intentionally. And I think that's also what I'm thinking about in terms of, of owning things, because where I think of idealistic is I get freedom. I have options. I am at the point where probably when my younger daughter goes to college in four years, I can live anywhere. We're renting this beautiful three bedroom, four story condo here in Richmond and a walkable community. It's great. But I actually go through Diana, every room, there was nothing that I would keep. I'm not attached to any of these things.

59:42They're not holding me back. Yeah. There's a nice bed that we spent money on or this table, but like, I would just leave it here. I don't, I don't, you know, I'm going to, I'll donate it or sell it, whatever. But like, realistically, I don't care about leaving this stuff here. I'm at the point where I need a passport, a credit card, and one suitcase worth of clothes. And that's it. that feels really liberating to me. That's where my mind goes with your quote, but I'd be curious where your mind goes today with that quote. This word idealistic, it almost has a negative connotation, right? Like a dreamer lost in the crowd, like that's their heads lost in the clouds kind of thing.

1:00:22Like, oh yeah, it must be nice that you have all this time to do all this deep thinking, right? But like for most of us, we have the practical realities of life. We've got kids and we've got jobs and we've got, you know, we've got to be realistic versus idealistic. So I think there's almost like a dismissive connotation to that word. Why that quote is meaningful to me is it's almost reclaiming that word. On the one hand, it means you're oriented towards what's ideal, but it's also like what's most meaningful, what's most true, what's most alive. When you're not so materialistic and your time and energy and money isn't wrapped up in acquiring stuff, you again have that space in your life to question what your values are.

1:01:08Question things like, who am I without all of this stuff? What does success look like if I don't have external markers of it? It just, I think, helps you become a little bit more self-directed and kind of rooted in your authenticity versus a shallow external marker, if that makes sense. It does make sense. Being financially intentional is like the mechanism that makes idealism practical. Yeah. I think when we sit back and think about all these aspects of our lives, there's an evolution. I am someone who looks at that as as just a huge positive. I think, again, going to how mental models for how to approach life.

1:01:54And I think we need to constantly be updating how we view the world because you get new information all the time, right? I always think back to that preposterous, the political hit job of, oh, that person's a flip-flopper as if that's something negative. Wow, you mean this person got new information and they change their mind? And you're trying to tell me that's bad? That's exactly what we want in friends, in family, in leaders, in everything. If you are not changing your mind when you get new information, there's something dramatically wrong with your brain functioning. That's not the way to approach life.

1:02:32Then you're just going on faith or worse, just blindly picking something. That's not a winning approach to life. So I don't know how I'm going to come down on some of this stuff a day from now or an hour from now or six months from now. You talked 45 minutes ago about having time to think and how important that is to you. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I feel like the theme almost is this conversation is evolving frameworks and thinking about money and spending and how this stuff changes. And at the beginning of my journey, I think I was so rigid around thoughts around spending, what was an appropriate thing to spend on.

1:03:11And there was almost like a moral high ground around it that I no longer have. Everybody has different preferences and circumstances and skills that drive them to use money in different ways. Who am I to judge? That's not my life. And that also, it doesn't affect me at all. And what I do, where I spend money on doesn't affect anyone at all. I bought this car and it's like, was I worried that people would judge me and that I'm materialistic now because I spent$29 ,000 on a car, even though I have a lot of good justification for it? Even if they did, does that change my satisfaction with this car?

1:03:52No. But I think a lot of freedom has come for me just holding the goals lightly. right? Like using the goal to set the trajectory and then loosening the grip some. There's this quote that I sent you from Mark Maron. He has a great newsletter. They're usually pretty short, but he's just like, he's another deep thinker. He wrote that book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F***. I just really enjoy his newsletter, but he had this one quote, what most people don't realize is that the value of goals does not come from achieving them. It comes from what the goal teaches us about what is actually valuable and not valuable in our lives.

1:04:40So set goals, but treat them as experiments, not destiny. The point isn't to achieve your goals. The point is to outgrow them. I mean, that really exemplifies what you're talking about with like the flip-flopping. Maybe it's not flip-flopping. Maybe it's outgrowing your original mental model. And that's a good thing. And just this, it kind of points back to our conversation about values too and like how hard it is to know what your values actually are. By experimenting with goals is another way for it to be revealed to you. Because we all have a lot of assumptions when we set goals and we say, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z, and I'm going to feel this certain way when I get there.

1:05:21And it could be a rude awakening when you realize like, oh, that isn't actually what I wanted. That's what I thought that I wanted. And maybe I didn't have complete information around that. My friend Keith had this quote from 2017 when I first met him and it was, I never dreamed past here. When I was younger and I had these limited thoughts, like limited aspirations. It was, I never dreamed past this aspect. And for him, it was, Hey, I have the house. I have a business I have married and I have kids. I never dreamed past here, but yet there's so much. And actually to see how much he's grown in the last 10 years has been remarkable.

1:06:05And like, who knows 10 years from now? And I think that's a really fun aspect of life is like, yeah, you keep surpassing these things and, and whatever way that is, it's, it doesn't have to be metrics. It doesn't have to be something that would impress somebody else. It's what works for you. This is not an external game. Almost everything in life is an internal game. Oh yeah. What do you feel about yourself when you're sitting in a dark room alone? Because that's really hard. I think a lot of us distract ourselves. And this kind of segues into something else I wanted to talk about. We talk about buying back time, but attention is so critical too.

1:06:42Oh yeah. Yeah. What's stealing your attention these days in ways that you don't necessarily love? That's not your ideal state. I would say maybe interpersonal conflict in certain aspects of my life can be a huge distraction. And that can be hard. I try to reorient by saying I don't seek to be understood by those who seek not to understand. I want to shift my attention and my focus on people that I'm compatible with versus maybe forcing something that isn't working. It doesn't mean someone else is necessarily wrong. It could just be like a compatibility issue and that's fine. But I think our brains are kind of wired to focus our attention on what we feel is threatening versus what we feel is working well.

1:07:38I am the most fortunate person that I know. Like I really am. Like I have so much to be grateful for. I have so many good people in my life. I really love the work that I'm doing. I love the way that I'm spending my time. I find it very distracting when my brain wants to focus on perceived threats that aren't a big problem in the grand scheme of things. I think it's a natural tendency that we have to have that negativity bias. So to answer your question like that is what I find really distracting. Yeah. I find I've been really good with digital distraction for a long time. I've made my phone as inert as I possibly can.

1:08:20I've shut off essentially all notifications. I don't even have Facebook or Messenger on my phone at all. It's insidious sometimes. I went to Reddit a couple of times. I'm a big English football fan, soccer fan. I end up just getting on like the arsenal of subreddit and now the world cup's here. And I find myself just like, Oh, I'm just going to look at Reddit for a couple of minutes. And that turns into 20 or 30. And it's insidious if you're not intentional, just applying some intentionality on like how you want to spend your days is part of my great day. Like is part of my great day spending two 25 minute chunks scrolling on Reddit.

1:08:58It's not, it never will be. Okay. Now Now that I'm aware of that, maybe that reflexive, because it's just two clicks. I even don't have it on my home screen. So it is two clicks, but still it happens. That's like a little example. Yours is a much bigger example, but it's still, there are these ways that we do get distracted with those kinds of things. Talking about intentionality, something I know you've been focusing on for a long time and I have as well as is health. Oh yeah. I know you're in the midst of a health challenge in the best way, not a health negative challenge, Right, right, yeah.

1:09:32What would be the advice you would give yourself five years ago? I wish that I would have prioritized it and kept experimenting with like, okay, if this type of fitness doesn't work for me, then what does? That kind of keep seeking if something doesn't work. my history with even just working out or like health in general, just eating right. Or like, like I think the longest I went without drinking any alcohol was like nine months. I loved that experience and I've never gone back to like any kind of heavy drinking after that. It just kind of like totally reset me. But I like, I enjoy, you know, a glass of wine here and there.

1:10:12And I don't think that's problematic at all. You know, there's that theory of like, it takes 30 days to build a habit. That is not true in my experience. I almost think that you have to have a very extended period of time in order to change. Because I don't, I mean, habits sound great, but like what I'm looking for is an actual lifestyle where this is just a no brainer and it's how I live. That's what this better body challenge that I'm doing is really helping me with that because it's a six month challenge. We're like over halfway through now and it is just completely reoriented me. First of all, doing it in community is huge.

1:10:51There's 26 people in this group that are always talking in the chat. There are certain key things that we have to hit every week. We've got to do five workouts a week, three have to be weightlifting, 30-minute workouts, which mine are typically much longer than that. We've got to walk 70 ,000 steps a week. So that could be 10 ,000 a day or break it up where it's five one day, 15 the next day, that kind of thing. you got to hit a protein goal every day or six out of the seven days. And then you've got to upload your data. So we all use fitness trackers and MyFitnessPlanner to track the protein that we're eating.

1:11:27And then we take screenshots and upload our data. That accountability and structure that was not self-imposed, right? I got this resource of having some externally imposed structure and guidelines to work towards has been extremely helpful. And then there's monetary consequences if you don't hit those. So it's$100 a week if you don't hit those things. And you get like one free week in the six months, which I had to use because I got sick one week. You pay like a fine? Yeah,$100 fine every week if you don't hit them. And it's funny, like talk about abundance. So I I did the rough math in my head and I'm like, okay, I paid$1 ,000 to be in the challenge.

1:12:10So that money is just gone. And then I paid another$1 ,000 that sits in escrow that they can pull from so that they're not like asking you for the money every time you get a fine. Technically, I can get that money back if I don't incur any fines at the end of the challenge. If you quit the challenge, it's like a$500 quit fee. There's financial consequences to not following through. But in the grand scheme of things, I thought, okay, let's say I lost$2 ,000 on this challenge. That does not feel punitive enough for me to hold me accountable. Okay. Because again,$2 ,000 in the grand scheme of my net worth is not much.

1:12:50Now, to risk that for the opportunity to do something that really intimidated me, and I genuinely believed I did not have the physical ability to do it. and now to watch me prove myself wrong and rise to the occasion in a way that I was terrified of, I have reason to believe I could win this thing. I really do. And that is shifting my identity in a way that is going to be very helpful for me long-term. This stopped being something that I was challenging myself to do. And it's like, this is something I really want to do. I've gotten to the place where I want to go to the gym. Of course, there are days where I have to push myself a little bit, but it's never insurmountable the way it has been in the past.

1:13:37So I think it's teaching me to show up in a way that I've never experienced for an extended period of time. I cannot recommend it enough. I will be signing up for the next round. I'm turning 40 next year and I started this like right after my 39th birthday or like right before it and so I'm imagining being in the best shape of my life on my 40th birthday that is very exciting to me so it is about prioritizing it and it's it's just like with money like it's it's reminding me of the excitement that I felt when I found financial independence I'm in the beginning stages of my fitness journey, just like when I was in the beginning stages of my finance journey, and I was hypervigilant about tracking every dollar.

1:14:26Right now, I'm hypervigilant about tracking every calorie and my workouts. I'm in the spreadsheets, but it's for my workout planning versus my financial planning. Again, your ambition doesn't go away when you reach fire, you reach financial milestones. I think you can reorient that ambition to things like your health and your relationships. That to me matters way more than money. And so it makes a lot of sense for me to spend my money in pursuit of those things that are more valuable than money. Oh, that is beautiful. Yeah. And I guess my quick follow-up on that is just simply, and this is a quote that you had said, but I guess you attributed to Carl Jensen.

1:15:08It's the easiest way to not keep up with the Joneses is to not hang out with the Joneses. it's who you're spending time with. We talk about that with money and the FI community and building community. And obviously we have Choose It by Local groups. You have this incredible economy conference. This is essentially an accountability group for health. Oh yeah. And it's crazy to me because even the people in this group intimidated me. And I thought, oh man, it's like, because a lot of them are in the FI community, but they're just impressive. It just felt like the cool kids of fire letting me sit with them.

1:15:44And this community is also incredibly welcoming and accessible and all of that. So it's just my own hangups. Physical fitness has always been a big insecurity of mine. And so to put myself in this group of people that are really prioritizing it, that is influencing me. That is me changing who the Joneses are so that I'm letting them influence me in the best way. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like environment beats willpower. You always knew that you wanted to go to the gym or work out or whatever, fill in the blank, but that took a lot of willpower. Yeah. If you were like me, I didn't know what to do with the gym.

1:16:27I had no idea. And it felt intimidating. And then you get in the right environment. Could be the FI community. You're in the right environment for people who want to be intentional with their money and their lives. you want to be intentional about your fitness my trainer was dean turner he had a group of people and just being with him was the environment that i needed in your case it's this accountability group it's easy yeah there's very little in life that's actually hard to take that next step literally the next step we build these things up as if they're these massive insurmountable things.

1:17:04It's just one step. Try to think of any aspect of your life where that next step was so hard that it couldn't happen. It's just when you zoom out and you say, oh, I have to get from here to super healthy or super fit. That seems insurmountable. But is it that hard to get 10 ,000 steps that very next day or go to the gym for 30 minutes five times that next week? No, it's not. It's just we get overwhelmed. We allow ourselves to get overwhelmed. Right. Well, and I think that also the other helpful thing for this is just being in tune with what actually motivates you. People talk about discipline, you need discipline, go to the gym every day, which I feel like I've solved for that by like having this accountability group that does a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of discipline.

1:17:52But I also recognize that the financial consequence wasn't punitive enough to actually motivate me. But you know what is potentially motivating is this idea of public shame. And so that feels more consequential than a monetary consequence. And I think about this like when I walked the Camino, I posted every day on Facebook how many miles I walked and just updates on my Camino journey. And when I had moments that I really wanted to quit, I thought about, am I really going to go online and be like, oops, sorry, guys, I changed my mind. I went home. There was no way in hell I was going to do that.

1:18:35The idea of not following through after I made such a big stink about it was like, there's no way. I very intentionally backed myself into a corner in terms of sharing so publicly. And I'm doing the same thing with this challenge now. So instead of thinking about the financial consequence, I am posting on my stories every single day. Today is day 95. Today's a rest day. So I'll be posting about, oh, it's a rest day today. But doing it every day and knowing that these people are watching because you can see who sees your story. And then I'm getting all these nice notes from people and people encouraging me and cheering me on and all of that.

1:19:15So yeah, I think knowing yourself, knowing what's going to motivate you and for like a worthy goal, it could be good to consider what would it look like to back yourself into a corner? I like that. Yeah. That is a fun way to end the conversation there. So, okay. I want to ask obviously where people can find you, but of course, economyconference.com. So that's economyconference.com. I know it's already sold out for 2027, which is amazing. I know you have a waitlist. People can just go to that homepage and click on the waitlist. And I assume if they're on the waitlist, they'll join a newsletter or an email.

1:19:56So they'll get told of next year of 2028 tickets when they go on sale. You will eventually get added to the newsletter, but if you want to just join the newsletter now, same on the website, there's a link for the newsletter. You can just sign up and that'll just keep you updated on what's going on with the event. With the waitlist, you will get an email when a ticket comes available and you have 24 hours to purchase. So it is important to jump on that. Last year, the waitlist was like a thousand people. And I think a lot of people have this idea of like, oh, it's so unlikely that I'll get an offer.

1:20:24But I really encourage you to go on there because I'm telling you, for me to resell the refunded tickets, I had to offer to every single person on that waitlist. Every single of those thousand people had an opportunity to buy a ticket and only 170 of them did. So if you're serious and you jump on it and buy within 24 hours. I am convinced that anyone who really wants to come to economy is going to get there. Okay, Diana. Well, as we said, community is so important. You see it in your community. We see it in ours. And again, to join your community, it's economyconference.com, economeconference.com.

1:21:04And to join ours, as always, it's choosetvite.com slash login. Or you could go almost anywhere on our site. just choose the vita com you'll see register or log in but yeah if you want a nice quick way choose the vita com slash login and as always take action join the community get involved and keep moving forward on your path to fight thanks for being here