Buy What You Love Without Going Broke | Frugal Friends | Ep 527

27:27So I think that 90 day transaction inventory, avoiding those why questions, but trying to get to, Hey, where was I when this was happening for everybody listening? That is a massive takeaway. I think that can dramatically improve your life. If you do that now, I want to really, cause I think stories make the world go round, honestly. And that's why I do try to dive into, into my own personal example pretty often, because I think sometimes people can take away just those little like, oh, I would have never thought about that unless Brad said it or Jill or Jen. Are there any things that each of you have found in your own experimentation that you've been surprised by that has added value to your life?

28:09So not in my life, but there's a story from the book that I really like telling that is a really good example. So our friend Paige, she started a new job right out of college. And she was so excited. As she started and she started making money, she started buying new clothes for this new job. She was changing out her college wardrobe for her adult wardrobe, which was great. And then after a few months, realized she hates this job. And now she doesn't need to buy clothes anymore, but she continues to go on her lunch break and buy clothes, shoes, handbags, makeup, all this stuff, just to escape the job, just to get away.

28:49And she didn't realize what she was doing until a year in. And she was living with her parents, eating their food. She realized she had spent her entire$60 ,000 salary on stuff just without realizing it. And so at the end, there was a little inventory of transactions, right? Where did all this money go? And she was able to pinpoint that it's these lunch breaks shopping trips. So then comes a lot of you guys will be familiar with Atomic Habits and all of the... Yeah. So what we're really looking at is cues, right? Proceeding event, person, place, time, stuff like that. So she identified two cues.

29:34The main one was her job, the location. So she immediately started looking for a new job, but she didn't find one overnight. So she had to find an alternative that was... She wanted to just get out on her lunch break. She couldn't leave altogether, so she could get out for an hour. That was really what she was after. And she just found herself at the mall. So instead, she started going to a park. She just brought her lunch and she took it to a park. So she was still able to escape for that hour a day, but she wasn't tempted to spend money. And so one day, and I love this part of the story, but she was like, one day I was just sitting under a tree at this park and the sun was shining and birds were chirping and it was this picturesque beautiful scene.

30:18And she's like, what was I doing? Spending an hour a day inside a dingy mall wasting my money when this is truly beautiful and fulfilling. And so eventually she did leave and she got to the major cue trigger. But she forced herself to get creative after she identified all these habits. And she wasn't even thinking about values-based spending at the time, but it was just looking at these tangible habits and getting creative with what she could change. For me, I think similarly, shopping as an activity is one of the draws for impulse spending. For me, I am accustomed to just on the weekends. It's how I grew up.

30:58My mom and I would go to the mall as teenagers. We would meet up at the mall. There wasn't a lot going on. So you just shop around and hope you had 20 bucks in your pocket. How are we dating ourselves? Yeah, exactly. And I still love it getting out of the house and kind of paired with the thrill of the hunt a little bit. I love digging even at a thrift store. I love just digging through piles of stuff and finding the hidden gem. But it got to a point where I don't need this stuff though, especially when I lived in a vehicle. essentially. I couldn't have more stuff. It was I needed to deal with the four bowls and the two forks that I had and move on with my life.

31:43And I think it has propelled me into this even continual years later, identifying new things to try. I think I'm a person who needs a decently high level of stimulation. I've learned about myself. And so I need different activity, but it doesn't mean that I have to go shopping. That now has become a little boring to me. I want something different. And so even just in the past year, I have engaged in new things that I have now found I really enjoy. I took up sourdough baking a little bit late to the party. I know everyone was doing it in 2020, but I did it in 2024. Yeah. I've been going with friends to trivia night and I joined a book club.

32:26I used to love reading and just detached from it for so long. And now with other people, kind of getting together, chatting about something, identifying what we're going to read next gave me not just an activity to do through the month to engage in new resources, but people, connection that I can get together with then monthly. And so I'm trying out all of these new things. None of it's costing me money, thanks to the library. And I'm learning so much about myself and really actually fulfilling those higher needs in ways that actually hit the target rather than just trying to throw money to solve my problems.

33:03I love that so very much. I think that is the kind of experimentation that we should all, we should all be doing. It's just trying to understand ourselves a little bit more and being creative, right? Like that's actually one of the backgrounds of FI in general. Like we're living just this slightly different life. Hopefully you don't feel deprived. Like that's how I've always thought of it as like this fun game that I get to play. Creativity is really the subtext of it. I rarely use that word, but that is the subtext is I'm living the same middle or even upper middle-class life as everybody around me.

33:36And I'm getting wildly wealthy at the same time. Like that's, that's the fun stuff about five, right? Like it's crazy. For me, I think some of the joy is in identifying that it's the simple luxuries of life that are actually the most fulfilling, that it is not this extravagant lifestyle that I have to find because like you said, it's not deprivation. it's really identifying, oh, it's not these lavish things that bring me joy, contentment, peace. It's these simple pleasures that I identify work for me and bring me joy. Yeah. It's not wanting less. It's wanting different and really targeting your want.

34:14Oh, it's wanting different. Damn. We can just close up shop right now. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I've found it's connection. That is the biggest point of differentiation in my life now compared with 10 years ago, let's say. But that's me. And you both have mentioned values-based spending a couple of times now. And in your book, you highlight something, the four Fs as key values. And I think this is the perfect time to tie into that because frankly, there might be somebody listening who, okay, yeah, they've heard us talk about creativity and figuring this out and experimenting and 90-day transaction inventory and all this stuff.

34:54But what if they're just kind of adrift right now and they don't know even where to start in terms of values-based spending? Yeah, that's why we kind of coined the four Fs because values-based spending and figuring out what you value can feel like this really big, daunting task. And while it is a lifelong journey, it shouldn't feel like an overwhelming task. It's why we start with a one-month no-spend challenge, why we do a 90-day transaction inventory. I was actually talking with my husband last night and we're about to do one. And he's like, well, we should do a one year. We should just do the full year.

35:28And I was like, Travis, aside from the fact that I wrote a book on this, the goal is to get it done, not for it to be all-encompassing and perfect. But he didn't listen to me because I'm his wife, not his personal finance author. So we start with manageable size tasks, right? And so the four Fs are family, friends, faith, and fulfilling work. And they are derived from that Maslow's hierarchy of needs I was talking about. So if you are not familiar with the hierarchy of needs, it's five levels. The first is food, water, shelter. Above it, we've got safety, consistency. So those are our basic needs.

36:12And in personal finance, we focus on those a lot. But our hired needs, which is what we like to focus on, are things that you're going to be pursuing even if your basic needs are not 100 % met. Obviously, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you're not going to be focusing on these higher needs. But if you're hungry and you know you can eat later and a friend asks you to go get a drink or something, you can put off dinner for a while to go get that connection. So our next level is belonging, friendship, romantic relationships. Above that, we have self-esteem, respect, and that's where a lot of overspending, if we don't feel self-confident, then we will overspend on beauty, skincare, fitness, clothes, all these things to make ourselves feel better when really we need to be pursuing these other things on the hierarchy.

37:07And then at the very top, again, self-actualization, fulfillment, creativity, the feeling like you are living into your full human potential. That's a lot, right? So it can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But we found in studies, when Americans at least are pursuing a quote unquote fulfilling life, the things that they mean in that tend to be relationships with family, relationships with friends and belonging, some kind of faith or spirituality practice. And that's where a lot of that self-actualization and passion come in. And then fulfilling work. And they actually said work and money.

37:45So we just combined those because we believe your fulfilling work shouldn't make you broke or poor, right? Your fulfilling work should pay you, but it should also make you feel like you're living into your full potential. So those are where to start. If you can base the way you're spending your money and your time and the way your fiscal spaces are set up, if you can arrange them to pursue those things first, then you have a much better chance of getting that dream life that you're picturing. And as you go on, you'll find different things that fall into there. but the four Fs are really, it's like that 80-20 principle, like 80 % of the time it's going to be one of those four.

38:32And with this context, I think it can be helpful in doing that 90 day transaction inventory with some of those questions of what was this purchase trying to get at? Was I trying to meet one of my four Fs in buying this thing? I was just talking with somebody on the podcast recently who was describing that her online shopping, it was a very vulnerable moment for her to realize, oh my, I did just spend this week a lot of money on clothing that I saw people wearing on Instagram. I thought it looked so cute. They are kind of representing this lifestyle that I want. And all these friends are wearing this style of thing.

39:14She's like, I think I bought that to fit in, to try and belong and to maybe hopefully be a part of this group or this club that how is that actually going to happen between these like digital Instagram influencers? Yeah. And I think a lot of it can be very subconscious like that. But when we give ourselves the opportunity to ask these questions, it can feel vulnerable, but there is action that can be taken from there. And there's self-understanding that we can walk away with to know, okay, some of my spending might be to reach some of these esteem needs, these friendship and family and faith needs.

39:55Are there other ways that I could meet that that actually meets the need rather than circumvents it? And then I feel bummed about the amount of money that I spent on it and wishing that I hadn't have bought that or shaming myself for it. But instead, how can this help me choose differently? I love that as a starting point. So these four F's and I think looking at the hierarchy of needs is such an interesting exercise. I feel like because this to me is one of maybe the, I don't know if paradoxes of five might be the way to term this, but I feel like most people, and this is not to denigrate a wide swath of society, but like most people are just like trying to get through the day.

40:36Whereas one of the really fortunate aspects of those of us in the five community who have some financial space, who aren't at that fight or flight stress every day of, do I have enough money to pay the bills? And that is not to minimize that. That is an ever present stress for a significant portion of society. Right. But those of us in the five community, most of us are beyond that point. And then we get to move from those bottom two levels of the hierarchy up towards the top and even up towards self-actualization. Right. And, and this to me is where the paradox comes in. It's like, sometimes you can be more stressed because like, you're so close to maybe what you see as like a perfection, if you will.

41:19And it reminds me of this book that I've read recently called the gap and the gain. So it's as opposed to focusing on the negative aspect of the gap between where you are and perfection, you miss the gain from where you started to where you are today. And I feel like this is a fundamental shift for me, but nevertheless, I think a lot of us, because we have these lives, a buddy of mine who I quoted on the podcast in 2017, it was, I never dreamed past here. Okay. And for a lot of us, right, we've never dreamed past where we are today. I think this would be kind of a fun launching point for a conversation because, right, like we're so fortunate, but yet a lot of us focus on what we're missing.

42:06And I just feel like we can do better. And maybe, maybe we can help kind of lead that conversation. I feel this so deeply. I have hit this point where I'm realizing, okay, life is short. Yes. but sometimes it feels really long. And to recognize, oh my, I got to a certain point in my social work career that I thought was going to take me 20 years. And really it took me five. And then it's like, well, now what? Because I didn't think beyond that. And I know Jen and I have talked about debt payoff. Okay. We're just going hard at this thing. And it's the only thing that we can see in front of us and then we reach it and it's not the nirvana that was promised to us.

42:51It's great. I'm really glad I accomplished it, but it doesn't solve all of my other problems. And in fact, now I've got to really hunker down and understand money in a real way to know what comes next after this. And I think this then is that call to the radical middle. I think it fits in a lot of context here of, okay, we've got a goal in mind, but let's also look at the bigger picture of our lives as well. And how can we still fulfill some of our needs in the here and now, honor the season that we're in while we're working towards this goal and not give every ounce of our time, energy, and attention to this one singular thing that we could find ourselves depleted on the other side of or completely miss all of these other aspects of living a really beautiful life because we were so head down in the sand, so extreme on this one thing, but taking the holistic approach to it and identifying how can I weave in all these aspects of my personhood, all these aspects of the four F's and really find a lifestyle that fits for me now that I'm also willing to be fluid with in the future.

44:04Here's how it looks today, but I'm willing to make changes too in years down the road if need be. And there is something to be said for singularity of focus, right? I love the one thing by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan, like what's one thing you can do now, which by accomplishing will make everything else easier or unnecessary in the future. And that is a route that we say, you know, this is an important way to look at goals. But with that, that is a very seasonal approach and a short-term approach to things. And even that begs us to consider the future. We have to look at how our goal now in the short term impacts our future before we just blindly go accomplishing it.

44:49We always have to be checking back in as we are singularly focused on each of our goals. And again, realizing that it's the ends never justify the means. All we have are the ends, right? So that's a lot of the justification for people like paying off debt or trying to retire early very quickly. The ends, they justify the means, whatever means necessary, but they don't because really all we have is the journey. And so if your mindset is there, then you can have that singularity of focus with goals and not become isolated by them. Yeah, I think this ties into so many things we've talked about, right?

45:33So Jill said before, we are dynamic beings. I think that's so important to remember is things change. Things are constantly changing. If you think you're gonna set a plan in motion and it's going to be the exact same plan 15 years from now, that's just not the reality of life, right? It just isn't. And Jill, you also said like, it's not the nirvana I was promised, right? Whether this is debt-free, reaching five, reaching some number on a spreadsheet, I don't know, becoming CEO. Going to Bali. Going to Bali. Oh, poor Bali. Bali was really great. Getting your business to seven fingers or whatever it is.

46:10There's no world. The three of us are here to tell you that is not the secret. It's just, it isn't the answer. That's not the lived reality of life. It just simply isn't. life is a constant iterative process of trying to figure out, Hey, what lights me up maybe in this season of life and you're trying to get more directionally accurate, maybe holistically, but there are seasons of life and we have to be okay with that. But if somebody thinks this again is another maybe paradox, right? It's like, if you think your life is going to be this wonderful unicorns and rainbows Shangri-La, when you hit your fine number, I am here to tell you that is not the way the world works.

46:51It just is not. Now, are you in a dramatically better spot when you've reached FI or when you're on the path to FI than when you started? Very obviously you are, right? Like there is no world where I'm going to say to anybody that following the path to FI isn't going to put you in a better spot. It is. But if you think that's the sole answer, it is not. It just isn't. And if you think you can figure it out when you get there and ignore it on the way there, you can't. Yeah. There is a research study that we referenced in the book about the amount of money that people think is going to make them happy.

47:27And what they did discover is, yes, as incomes increased to a certain extent, it did cause people greater levels of satisfaction. The previous study was at about like$60 ,000, but now they've redone it. And it's actually at like about a half a million and then you plateau, which does make a lot more sense to me now. However, it only increases satisfaction to the degree that people were already satisfied and had these practices in place already. So the more money didn't make unsatisfied people satisfied. It's the practice of contentment, gratitude, finding what brings you joy along the way that can follow with you and carry on to, yeah, this is, I'm finding my enough.

48:18And so I think that that call, like what you're describing here is to say, while we are focused on goals, how can we also find these simple pleasures, these little luxuries of life that we can be engaging in that go with us, whatever season of life that we find ourselves in these ways of identifying, here's how I care for myself. Here's how I value myself. Here's how I engage in family, friends, faith, and fulfilling work, because that number in the bank account will shift. Hopefully it goes up. Sometimes it'll go down. But the things that are the constant that we have control over, I do think it's worth cultivating that for the long term.

48:59It's truly that Adam Sandler SNL skit where he's the Italian tour guide. And he's like, if you are not happy, Italy will not make you happy. If you are sad in America, you will be sad in Italy. If you are happy in America, you will be happy in Italy. And that is truly what it is with money. Good summary, Chad. That is amazing. Okay. We're going to need to dig that up and put that in the show notes. I love that skit. It's so life-giving. You're going to help me find that. Okay. Absolutely. Okay. So this has been essentially the most important conversation we can have in our community. So thank you both for having it with me.

49:38I think this is so critical. As you know, of course, we always like to leave on actionable tips, right? So while the theory I think is so critical, like the hallmark of choose a buy has always been the actionable. So you talk in the book about saving smarter, not harder and high impact strategies for saving on essential items and maybe even other things. So why don't we kind of land the plane here in terms of, are there specific tips that you could give somebody like, Hey, I want to make a change in my life tomorrow. Just one thing, like where can they think about maybe making that high impact change?

50:15So if you're thinking about a high impact change to actually like saving money again, I love the 80, 20 rule. So we've really tried to change frugality to be defined as good stewardship of your resources. That's money, time, natural resources, physical space, all of that, mental energy. And then in the traditional sense of frugality, the ways that you save money, we like to take an 80-20 approach. And so this can be really freeing, especially for a lot of people in the FI community who really want to hold money close in everything and realizing that Americans, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, spend most of their money in just three categories.

51:02It's 80 % if you include four, but the fourth category is investing. So we don't want to lower that. So we'll look at the top three, which is about, I would say like 60, 70. It is housing, transportation, and food. So if you focused on just those three things and keeping those three things in check, you wouldn't have to worry about any other expense. No coupon, no rebate apps, no BOGO sales. Nobody cares. It's fine. You could buy all the sustainable and local everything and it would be fine if you just kept those three areas in check and realize no expense is quote unquote fixed. Everything can be creatively reworked.

51:49I like the sound of that. You may not be able to change your housing situation tomorrow, but it could be something worth looking at. We don't want to assume, well, that's fixed. So what else can I do? Let's look at it. And it may be that you decide, yeah, I'm going to stay here. This makes the most sense for me. But there's also people who, when they give themselves the opportunity to question it, can realize, actually, I don't think I want to be a homeowner anymore. It's not the nirvana that was promised to me. And it actually costs so much more than I ever would have thought that it would have cost.

52:22And maybe, oh, I really love living in this area, but I don't actually have to live in this neighborhood. Or what if I did take that job in another state and try out another area with possibly a lower cost of living? So that is possible. And also looking at, if you are looking at buying a house, the price point that you are looking at purchasing that house at. Eric and I I bought our house off of my salary alone, a pre-approval off of my salary. So very conservatively for the two of us. And so it's these types of decisions that can help us in the long term rather than, okay, yeah, I like the houses that are$300 ,000, but then we get talked into a$350 ,000 home and just that extra$50 ,000 over the life of the loan, depending on our interest rate could mean hundreds of thousands of dollars that we are then not able to invest and grow our money.

53:17So really being strategic about a housing decision. And then of course, like Jen said, with transportation, do we have to have the cars that we have? Do we have to have multiple vehicles? My husband and I now granted we work from home, but we only have one vehicle. Well, we have one car, we have two scooters and that's very fun talking about simple pleasures of life, riding that scooter around downtown. And that works for us because we live in kind of a metro area. So we're able to, if even both of us need to go different directions, one can take the scooter, the other can take the car. And then of course, food.

53:53And there's all sorts of things you can do with that for meal planning, meal prep. That is a whole other episode. But that is something you could start tomorrow. These other decisions are made every five to 15 years, but food decisions are made daily. So if you're looking for something actionable in the immediate, looking at your food purchases and ways that you can decrease costs there would be ideal. Yeah, totally agree. That's the low hanging fruit of the big three expenses. You can start in that tomorrow with meal planning, start cooking at home a little bit, just be intentional, I think would be my biggest advice.

54:28I think most people are reflexively, Hey, it's five 45. We're driving home and what do we do now? Right. That's when you make poor decisions. So it's just like anything in life. It's long-term thinking. It's just looking a little bit down the field to making a positive decision. And Jill, I love, it's not the nirvana that was promised to me. That's the takeaway from American society at large, right? It's like, that's a total random aside. I'm so sorry. That's the takeaway. No, that's the tongue-in-cheek takeaway. We're all a little jaded at this point in our decades of life. Yep. 2024. Yeah. The year of being jaded.

55:09No. Yeah. I don't think I'll ever own a home again. As you were describing that, I'm like, oh, it just doesn't appeal to me. It's just not the thing. I was thinking the same. Even if you do want to own a home, maybe owning a second or third or maybe being a landlord is not for you. Like I am finding out. So I'm a naturally. That was a big one in our personal finance community. You know, get your duplex, get your quadplex. I experimented and. It works for some people. Works for some people. And it is not for everybody. It is not. And that's okay. I think maybe that's where the takeaway we leave with is it's okay to experiment and just find out something isn't for you.

55:50You've learned something. That's not a failure. It means you've learned something about yourself. It means you've learned something about the world. And that is a win. As far as I'm concerned, life is a series of experiments, hundreds and thousands of them. And you're just learning a little bit more about yourself every single time. Jen, Jill, you too rock. I love chatting with you. Love, love, love. Thank you so much for coming on. So, okay. I'm going to try to fill in the blanks. People can find you obviously at the frugal friends podcast. They're listening to a podcast now on a podcast player.

56:19Just search for frugal friends. They're amazing. And the book is coming out January 7th. Everywhere books are found. So buy what you love without going broke. And we will obviously have a link in the show notes. Is there anything else that you want to send people to? Are those the two spots? Well, I think I would just add like, yes, if you feel like you want to improve how you spend money, the book will be great. But even if you don't feel like that's where you're at, we're hoping to usher in this new perspective in personal finance. It's exactly what you've been listening to for the last hour that we feel like a lot of this conversation is missing from the business and investing bookshelf.

56:59We want to usher in that conversation. And the only way more writers with similar voices will get heard is if this book does well. So I would encourage you to buy a copy and give it to a friend that wants to buy what they love without going broke. and yeah, let's further this conversation for decades to come through not just our voices, but a lot more diverse voices. I love that. Absolutely love that. Thank you both again for coming on and to everyone get this book. It's really great. It's genuinely great. I read it and really enjoyed it. So until next time, thanks for listening and being part of the Chooseify community.

57:42Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Chooseify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player and just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com slash subscribe. And it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there. And I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox.

58:18So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and how we keep this the ultimate crowdsourced personal finance show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in real life community, we have choose a local groups in 300 plus cities all around the world. So head to choose a by dot com slash local and you'll find a list of all of those cities in 20 plus countries all across the world. and if you're just getting started with FI or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Choose a FI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community and even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up and it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence, what are we doing here, why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life And then Choose a Vi created a Financial Independence 101 course that's entirely free.

59:15Just head to choosefi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.