EP 12 - Behind the scenes of "Big Yellow", + Dr Powell Returns to Discuss Job Loss and Mental Health

30:39Dr. Powell, it's great to have you back again. Yeah, thank you for having me. Well, I wish it wasn't under these terms. We were always going to have you back again to continue the conversation that we had. It was such a great episode having you on. And it's just we could have spent a lot more time. So we said, God, you know, we're definitely going to have you back. And here you are. But I thought it was important to have you back at this moment. You know, you've probably seen all of the Spirit Airlines stuff that Nomadic's been involved in and, well, just the Spirit Airlines closure in general, you know, through all of the press.

31:20Yeah, well, thank you for inviting me. I know that it's a sensitive topic for so many. while, you know, there's so many jobs that are lost. I really hope that the, you know, this episode is going to give some people hope. Well, yeah, that's why we're doing it. So there's a lot to pack in here just on this one subject. You know, I feel close to this subject. I've been in that same position of airlines closing over the years. I think I've had four or five. I mean, I had so many, I can't even remember them, how many I've had throughout my career of the doors closing like this. So, but it's a, yeah, it's a very emotional experience, very, very difficult in a lot of ways.

32:09I think people outside of aviation maybe look at that situation as, you know, they just lost a job, just go get another job. But why do you think it's like emotionally different for pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, people that are part of, you know, an airline? Well, even growing up in the aviation industry, I had come to realize from an early age that aviation isn't just a job because really it's a lifestyle, an identity that is consistently building and often a lifelong dream. You know, you talk to little kids who are going to aviation camps and such, and all of them are saying that they want to become a pilot.

32:53They want to fly. They want to be involved in something. Because, I mean, when going on their first airplane ride, many of them remember that feeling of kind of going up in the air. And that feeling sticks with them. There's something in their brain that it just clicks and says, this is right for me. And so people sacrifice years, money, so many relationships and even their own stability in so many different aspects just to get there. So when it's lost, it's not really the income that they're thinking about. It's that meaning that they have, that structure, the belonging as well, because the aviation industry, the second that you step into it, it's like a whole new world opens up.

33:34All of that is disappearing at once. Yeah. So, you know, with with that identity tied to your career so closely related, you know, in aviation, you know, I know, especially with pilots, because, you know, I know I've been there. You know, what happens, you know, psychologically when when that identity identity disappears? For sure. So it's that immediate question of who am I without this and almost that feeling of something being stripped. When your identity is tied to being a pilot, a flight attendant, a mechanic, even someone in airport operations, losing that role can feel like losing that sense of self that you have.

34:18It can cause disorientation, that loss of purpose, and maybe even shame that kind of comes with it. Because now you have to go and face everybody that you had probably told and insert job title here. Yeah. So what, you know, what, what emotions, you know, do people in that situation typically feel? You know, I mean, you got shock, you know, obviously fear, maybe even embarrassment. I mean, you know, people that lose their jobs sometimes feel embarrassed. for sure well a lot of the yes the shock the this can't be real if we want to talk about a classic grief cycle because this is this is grief um this this can't be real moment is 100 % happening that fear and you immediately go to what happens next immediately that fight or flight is going to kick in and you're saying who am I without this and then very likely anger and frustration can follow Maybe it's anger at the company and the way that things were handled.

35:24Maybe it's anger at yourself for choosing this different role. But for many, that embarrassment and that shame often comes with it, even though it's completely outside of their control. So in order to minimize this distress, because I'm sure so many people are sitting there maybe watching this going, yes, I'm feeling this, but what am I supposed to do about it? I also, I just want to mention that the aviation culture, it really pushes you to just kind of get through it. And so it's going to reward that resilience with it. So even though it rewards composure and problem solving under pressure, you're trained to override that emotion and to continuously compartmentalize.

36:09So that can translate into minimizing distress instead of processing it. So I really encourage people to take that time To take that moment and say, okay, right now I feel like I'm in panic mode Why? Because I have no idea what I am supposed to do next Maybe I didn't have a backup plan Maybe I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment having to come home to a family And so knowing that it's not just me that's impacted There's a lot of extra pressure that is weighing on me So I would encourage those people, take a moment, allow themselves to process instead of minimizing it. That distress you need to get through instead of compartmentalizing or it's all going to blow up in unhealthy ways.

36:55Right. I mean, it's like losing a family member. It's like a death in a family when this happens. And you go through this mourning period and, you know, you not only are dealing with that mourning part of it, But all of these other things that you just mentioned, you know, are on top of that. You know, part of what we wanted to do in this spirit situation was, you know, give as many of those spirit employees, the pilots in particular, you know, some, you know, a way to have some amount of closure to like not just wake up and, you know, have the carpet pulled out from under you and say, you know, you no longer have a job or, you know, it's just all gone.

37:45But a way to have, you know, to create some kind of fun finality in flying that last flight of that airplane to, you know, to where they took it, which, you know, most people called it the graveyard. I did see that. I did see that. I was going, oh, wow, that's either really morbid or, you know, I kind of respect it. Okay, give yourself that closure. And yeah, I'm sure so many people did have that closure and it almost kind of gave them a moment to feel a little bit of peace with it. For sure. Absolutely. And I definitely commend you all for for stepping right into action, because a lot of us when when faced with uncertainty, mind you, uncertainty is probably one of the hardest things for our brain to tolerate, especially because as pilots, you're used to feeling like you're in control or at least that illusion of control.

38:41You're used to planning. You're used to predictability. That's what you need. And that's what you thrive on. So when that's gone, that anxiety spikes. And then there's usually no timeline or clear timeline or outcome when it comes to this. So y 'all took what was in your control and said, OK, well, how can we maximize this? What resources do we have to at least give these employees a moment for themselves? And also it gives them a great story. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. It is a good, you know, way to, you know, talk about the end of that period of your life that, you know, I was able to, you know, go fly these last flights and kind of put that, put spirit to bed, you know, of sorts.

39:29But, you know, you do talk about the anger part of it. And, you know, in just a week's time, we had a lot of time with these spirit pilots. And they were just this great group of pilots. You know, you talk about having a tribe. And they were just great people. And they just had this great thing. and you could see what that loss was to them. But at the same time, I mean, I was happy to be able to be a part of it in some way to help them through it and hopefully help them in the future for that matter. We made some, you know, really, really good friends in that short amount of time. But, and I'm still in contact with them.

40:16But is what I am seeing now is, you know, after a few weeks, is this like kind of anger thing kind of coming to the surface. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you're suddenly out of the job, you suddenly have a lot more time to think about things. And a lot of the time as pilots, especially because y 'all enjoy the strategizing, you may enjoy your mind kind of running at a million miles per hour. So now that you have nothing to think about when it comes to flying, you're then going to, okay, one, what's the next step? And two, what did I do wrong? And how could I have fixed this? With that anger, it's mainly, I think, rooted in that uncertainty.

41:02And so you're kind of maybe projecting onto the airline because really it's like, what can they do about it? But you need somewhere to put that anger. So we're going to throw it at the airline. We're going to throw it at maybe the media for the way that they put it out there before telling the employees. You're going to throw it at sometimes projecting to your family and stuff. And so the families are going to feel the brunt of that as well. And so I think a lot of it is just a lot of that uncertainty, that loss of control. What we can do with that, though, is just notice it first. When we're calling something out, saying, OK, I'm really angry because I feel like I can't control this situation, a situation that I once felt very safe in.

41:53We almost kind of lose the power with that. But when you say that you're angry about something, then we kind of notice that those words aren't nearly as scary. When you say, okay, well, I don't know where to turn next, the next solution to that answer is, all right, we'll find a path. You don't know where to turn? All right, well, let's start looking. Right. So, you know, you mentioned the families, the spouses, children. And, you know, what what ripple effects does all this have on on on these people's family? Yeah, well, first off, I definitely want to give so much credit to the families. I mean, growing up in one, I didn't really understand how much of the brunt of it that my mom took to support my dad through his career and how many things that my dad had missed and wishing that he had been there.

42:50So the families are definitely taking so much sacrifice. And so they're feeling this very deeply. The spouse is often absorbed that emotional and that financial stress as well. So what once felt very stable is often now there's that questioning for them, too. It's okay, well, what steps can I take as a spouse to help support my pilot now? And then the kids can often pick up on that tension. So, I mean, kids are very observant, even just small movements within the house. If somebody's not speaking like they typically would, kids often notice it. So there can be a shift in roles and then that identity within the household as well.

43:37Maybe a spouse goes back to work. That can add a whole other layer. Now that we're recording this, summer's out for the majority of the country. And so now kids are around a lot more. And so pilots, flight attendants, just all those aviation professionals, now that they're home a lot more, they are going to have a lot more pressure on them to be in that good mood. And so what I would really encourage, there are studies that show that gratitude, especially in times of uncertainty, when you're over here going, okay, well, what do I have to be grateful for? I just lost my job. But finding those small things to be grateful for, because now with this loss of a job, yes, it does bring a lot of really negative feelings, but it also brings a moment of repair for the family.

44:28Now that summer's here, maybe that is a time to sit outside with your kids and to really watch them and see how they've grown. Not think about, oh, the time that I've lost with them, but I have this time now. If we're spending all of our time focusing on what's next, then we're going to be missing out on what is right in front of us. And so being grateful for even just that small window that has opened up, I would really encourage that. I know that it's hard at this time. Yeah. Easier said than done, right? So much easier said than done. But even just like five minutes without the phone, because I know that, you know, we're being blasted with this news of, okay, well, what's next for spirit?

45:13Look at all of these people trying to save them. It's no stop just for five minutes. Yeah. Sit, look at what's around you. Look at your community that you have. and just allow your mind to be grateful for that. Yeah, that's great advice. And looking back on my own past, in those situations, I was full of anxiety, stress, and I couldn't enjoy the moment of having some time off. And looking back, I realized everything was going to be okay. Everything turned out fine. And I had those moments then that I wasted in stress that I could have just enjoyed like a summer. Yeah, you know, the financial hardship and stress is something that is definitely overwhelming in those situations, though.

46:16So I know what you're saying, and I hope people actually listen and put that to good use. But yeah, it's, but I also understand how difficult it is. Right. And fortunately, gratitude is free. You don't need to go and take a trip to find something that you're grateful for. You could honestly just be grateful for the clothes that you have on your back. You can be grateful for another day and another chance to find a new experience. Yeah. You know, a story I'll relate really quick was Eastern Airlines. I was 24 years old working for Eastern Airlines, and they closed the doors. So in about a three-month period of time, my father passed away.

47:05I got divorced, and now I lost, like, this dream job. And I remember sitting in my house that the furniture was now all gone. I'm in this empty house and I'm sitting there on the floor just like going, my life is over. I've lost everything that I care about. And there's no hope for the future. And I remember just sitting there sobbing and my doorbell rang. And I answered the door and it was a mailman. and he's looking at me and he goes, is everything okay? Can I help in any way? I said, no, you know, it's fine, you know. And he says, well, you got to sign for this letter. So we had a registered letter.

48:00I signed it and I opened it up and it's a check for two cents. It's a check. It's my pension from Eastern Airlines. What a slap in the face. Oh, my gosh. but the moment was was just so crazy to me that somebody had probably spent three or four dollars on a registered letter to send me a two dollar or two cent check the absurdity of that just it it created this clarity that suddenly i realized that this is all so absurd and the reality of it is I am completely free in life of, I don't have to, my identity is no longer attached to being this airline pilot. That died. My whatever psychological things a son has with his father in terms of, you know, I'm sure we could go into this and I don't want to turn it into my therapy session, but that was all gone.

49:11I'm this single guy and I'm able to go do anything in the world that I now please. It was like this freeing moment. And that was easy to do as a 24-year-old person without a family and all of these financial stresses. I had nothing in life and didn't need anything at that point. But I guess the point of all of that is, is there there there was this like defining moment because of of this, you know, airline failure and these these other things in my life that turned into just a great pathway for me in life. And, you know, I tell everybody that, you know, these failures happen, but the end result is always better than than what you had previously.

50:04It typically is because a lot of what you can do is take the lessons that you've learned throughout your time. So a lot of times people see the uniform as that identity. And so it's not that you've lost flying. It's not that you've lost aviation. But instead, maybe we take away parts of that uniform. Maybe we, you know, keep a sticker that kind of shows who we are. If you want to put a sticker on your water bottle, laptop case, something like something that helps you identify, like, this is what I've been through. There's so many people that will look at that and say, oh, my gosh, I know what that means.

50:41And so, yes, it can feel really ridiculous when I say, oh, a sticker. People are like, OK, cool, whatever. But it's it's the it's not the uniform. It's not the title. It's not the seat that you sit in. it's a symbolic of worth that competence that you have and that identity that you're carrying losing that often can feel like losing value as a person it's like if i'm not if i'm not doing this then what value do i have even though that's not really true what you're grieving is not just a job it's that version of your life your future trajectory that you thought that you had or that you thought that you were in even sometimes that childhood dream that you thought that you had But in reality, it's actually another opportunity.

51:27And so, yes, again, easier said than done. I am not speaking as somebody who had just lost my career trajectory. But I want to definitely instill some hope that you can carry on those life lessons. You can work on different things that you want to improve on. And now, now that you are in the job market, if maybe there was something that you wanted to improve upon then or do differently, then you can look at the different careers that you have. A lot of people when starting their pilot career will think, OK, the airline's basically it. It's like airlines or cargo, right? Or unless you want to do military.

52:05But there's so many different ways that you can make an impact using your certificates, using your experience. So many different things that you can find purpose in. You could be saving lives as a pilot. And really, it's up to you. Exactly. That's exactly what happened to me. I mean, it was like I was able, it gave me the freedom to not be attached to this, like, identity of what I always thought I was going to be. And truthfully, looking back, I wasn't happy in that doing what I was doing. It was just, you know, that's what I always wanted to be. So, you know, I should be happy doing this. But the truth be known, I was not happy being an airline pilot.

52:54And it set me free in so many different ways to where I could eventually become who I was supposed to be. Well, I was thinking that, you know, before we even just started recording, like the opportunities that these people have now, even just scrolling through my aviation therapist Instagram, I constantly seen, even now, weeks after this has been announced, people going, hey, Spirit employees, we're doing a free resume building class. Hey Spirit employees, Justin FYI, we have 500 spots open for you. We are now prioritizing your resume. So not only is this a chance for you to have a new experience, but this is a chance for you to possibly move up.

53:52This is a chance for you to feel like you're in power. So take it. Take that opportunity. Not asking for help is just your pride getting in the way. Because the aviation community wants to help. I have not seen one account that has not wanted to do something. Yeah, absolutely. And so this is a tremendous opportunity for the younger pilots. My perspective on this and where my empathy really lies are the guys who are my age. Yeah. I'm almost 60. If I was in that position 60 years old and I just spent the last 20 some odd years at Spirit Airlines, and the thought of starting over at an airline, going to the bottom of the seniority list, the lower pay, all of these things would be very depressing to me if I was in that position.

54:51And I would probably be looking elsewhere, but also thinking, well, what else elsewhere is there? I only know how to fly airplanes. What am I going to do at this age? And, you know, from that perspective, I don't think they're having the same positive outlook on new opportunities that a younger pilot would. No, of course not. I mean, you're set in your ways. You enjoyed that. That was comfort to you. But the older pilots, especially, maybe the pilots that were going, hmm, maybe I can retire at 62. Maybe I can retire early. Typically, especially when you reach that big six number in front, you're already thinking about that.

55:40What do I want to do in my retirement? So I'm not saying start retirement early, but know that there's so many other paths that you can take that don't that doesn't have a 65 year cutoff. Exactly. So there's the part, the part 135, you know, you can you can go and, you know, as long as your medical is is good. Well, I mean, yeah, there's lots of there is lots of opportunities regardless of what age you are. But I think it's important not to, you know, for people that age, not to think of themselves as an airline pilot. I have to be this person I was for the last, you know, 20, 30 years. Well, also, when you retire, you need to have purpose outside of your job.

56:29That's with any career, especially aviation, when there's so much purpose tied into it. There's so much identity tied into it. So I would encourage you to start building those hobbies, building the things that you enjoy. Is there something that you find purpose in? There's so many people that have so many lessons that they've learned throughout their time in the aviation industry. Is this a time for mentorship? Is this a time to take that power back? I mean, for you, you decided to start building something like Kitty Hawk. And you really wanted to bring in that community. This is something that you can definitely, that so many pilots can take advantage of.

57:16That sense of community, that sense of finding something. Because you know what? Some people do want those 60-year-old pilots. Some people want to say, hey, you have been around. You know how the aviation industry is changing. Help mentor these people. So instead of going back down in the seniority list, maybe you're not flying as many hours, but you are able to support that next generation. Sure. Yeah, that's a great way to give back. That's great advice there. And, yeah, there's so many just great experienced pilots out there that were at Spirit. I hope that they are able to give back that experience and mentor some people.

58:01For the people who don't accept it well, what are some bad ways do you think that pilots deal with things? Yeah. So like the negative coping mechanisms. So usually, I mean, we've got whole programs for this, but typically a lot of people will turn to alcohol. that usually it is, it's kind of a step-by-step process. So it first starts out as avoidance. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to, I don't want to even mention this because it makes me feel uncomfortable. It gives me negative emotions. So of course, I don't want, I don't even want to process this. Then there comes the isolation because why you're getting random texts from people going, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry this happened.

58:57And you're like, no, I'm a strong person. I don't want your pity. I don't want to, you know, start dwelling on this. So then there comes to, okay, well, what can I cope with now? And it's substance use and then over-identifying with those worst-case scenarios. So then I want to say while we are kind of in a substance loop, alcohol is a depressant. And so it's going to keep our mind in a depressive state. not only that but it's going to impair our recovery as we sleep and um very typically certain types of alcohol it can contain ingredients that increase anxiety so we're just going to be kind of staying in a loop um along with not allowing ourselves to be productive get our, I would say, get our head on straight.

59:54So process exactly what happened. And then we're just going to start scrolling our phone while drinking because we are isolated. We need to feel like we are around people. And so sitting on our phone is going to give us that pseudo feeling. And then we're going to start comparing ourselves to others. And with that comparison starts the cognitive distortions. So the messed up thinking where we're going, I should be doing better. Those shoulds, I think every single person has a cognitive distortion of the, I should be doing this. Then you add on with the predictive thinking. So for a lot of people, especially the pilots with tens of thousands of hours, they're going, no one's going to want me.

1:00:40Like, no one's going to want me. I'm in my 50s. I'm in my 60s. Okay, well, you're making that choice for them. Right. You are taking away their ability to say yes or no. It's only you that have said that to yourself. Nobody else has told you that. You are already rejecting yourself by your predictive thinking. But then you're saying, I should have, I should have gone with this airline instead. They're doing so much better. Well, that wasn't the opportunity that was presented to you at that moment. Yeah, I hear that a lot. The regret of like, I made a bad decision by going here when I should have gone X, Y, or Z.

1:01:19And that is literally the crapshoot of aviation careers right there. And it's always been that way. I don't think I've heard one pilot that has not given me a, I should have done this differently in my career, whether it's a checkride failure, whether it is a different route for time building. we're all going to pay our dues at some point in whatever career it is it is really just a matter of when are we going to do it yeah and and from the pilot perspective it doesn't matter what happened in the past what happens right now are the decisions that you make going forward you know and that's that's how you're you know taught to fly if if they if the airplane ends up having an engine failure, it is what it is.

1:02:11And now you just deal with it and plan for a future better outcome. For sure. And I mean, in that moment, yes, you have to compartmentalize what you are going through, where maybe at first your brain goes, oh, shoot, there's an engine failure. And then the brain that you have been trained on, where it's like, wait, we thrive on this. Wait, I know how to do this because this situation has been thrown on me. You know, when you're doing your training, your consistent check rides, especially when in the airlines, they're gonna make sure that they throw the worst of the worst at you. And so you're like, wait a minute, I've dealt with worse in the sim.

1:02:53So I know how to do this now and I'm going to click it on. I'm going to turn on my logical side of my thinking in my brain and I'm going to, I'm going to hone in everything that I know. When it comes to this uncertainty, a lot of the time we need to stabilize before we strategize. Because immediately in the scenario that you threw out, you can easily strategize. Because you stabilized immediately like that. That's easy radical acceptance. Okay, this is the situation I've been thrown. Awesome. Let's get it done. When it comes to this uncertainty, it's, oh wait, I didn't have a checklist for this.

1:03:34Hold on a minute. We need to stabilize ourself, especially within that first 30 days, emotionally and mentally, after we have lost this position in the airline. We need to focus on sleep. We need to focus on routine. We need to focus on connection, especially with other humans. And we need to process what just happened before making any major life decisions, or else we are going to end up making a very impulsive decision that's not going to support our family and the values that we have. Instead, we're going to be making it in fight or flight. Yeah, that's a very good point. And the checklist part is the one thing that was missing from what I said in terms of relating that to a real life situation, you know, of losing your job and being in this position.

1:04:22It's in our airplane training, we have very defined procedures and checklists to follow that get us to that safe place when there's adversity or whatever. But in our lives, we don't have that. We have that failure that happens to us personally, and there's no guideline there. And I think that's what people are missing. But I also think that's where the importance of community comes in because there's people like me. I've been through it. I know the playbook to this. And I'm happy to try to help, you know, people follow that same playbook and get to the other side. But you can't do that if you go into this isolation mode.

1:05:22Right. And I mean, connecting with our community, it's critical. Isolation amplifies distress, even though it feels comforting in the moment. I think that last time we had chatted, I talked about the anxiety avoidance combination. The more we avoid, it may feel okay in that moment. But in reality, it's actually going to build our anxiety. Isolation is going to build that distress. Why? Because a week's going to go on and you're going to say, nope, I'm just going to ignore this problem, just like avoiding. And then you come back into reality and you're going, wait a minute, all of my colleagues have taken advantage of this and I avoided the opportunity to have a resume builder.

1:06:04You can process while still moving on to the next step. Those two things can be there at once. Duality can't exist. It actually exists in the majority of our life. So we can still grieve the person that we are while being excited about what's yet to come. So definitely no isolation because somebody knows somebody else. Somebody who's second cousin at this major airline knows the chief pilot for XYZ. You know what? You're gonna be best friends with them. Awesome. But connection normalizes that stress. staying in touch with others in aviation makes somebody feel less alone and it makes you feel more grounded because they're going through the exact same thing or they know somebody who is and they can connect you with them right and that's you know i know i've talked to you about you know having having some resources on kitty hawk or for just the things that we're talking about and uh You know, I wish I was further along with that right now, but it just, you know, all of this conversation just is really motivating me to get that out there for people to use those resources and to develop, you know, that community, to have something there if they don't have it elsewhere.

1:07:27Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's growing. It's not growing at the rate that you want it to, but I'm on it now. And so I'm over here seeing that it's growing. I'm seeing that, you know, there are jobs here and there that are posted. Who knows? Maybe somebody's going to find it. And maybe somebody's going to say, oh, maybe it's not that job, but it's a job like that that I want. And so it's going to be a path to lead them to that right position. And so, yeah, it's really great. I think that, you know, we want to be everything for everyone, but in reality, we can't. And so we're going to have to band together with our connections.

1:08:03So I'm sure if somebody who has flown with you is saying, hey, I need a change in lifestyle, I need a change in work-life balance, something like that, then you're going to say, let me think about who I know. Or someone who says, hey, I'm interested in starting a company. You're going to be like, awesome. Let me support you in whatever way. Right. No, absolutely. And, you know, when we do talk about the people who aren't able to handle these situations well, that do end up in these isolated times, maybe turn to alcohol, where they're having these negative thoughts. When we do talk about, we always talk about you need to talk to somebody.

1:08:55so we've talked about this before we talked about this on the last episode when when pilots start thinking about that i should be talking to somebody i need to talk to somebody they immediately think about their medical and is this going to affect my medical and my ability to fly situations like this you know if somebody is having a difficult time and and they come and and talk to to somebody like you what position does that put them in with the faa first off i do want to bring up that this is a real invalid concern for so many people not because not because therapy is going to take away their medical.

1:09:43That is not true at all. Therapy alone will not take away your medical. That was only since June of 2024. So it's only been two years. When somebody just straight up announces, congrats, guys, y 'all can get help going ahead. As long as you have these certain diagnoses, you're fine. That's going to take decades to get around to everyone. And still the stigma will be there until all of the people holding that stigma are gone. And so 100%, I understand being nervous and being scared. Really, it's the diagnosis that matters. When you have lost your job and when you are trying to process something in regards to that, especially when it is so sudden, you should not have a diagnosis.

1:10:30This, if anything, would be called something like an adjustment disorder. And so an adjustment disorder, it is on the disposition table that all AMEs use. I have it on my website as a resource, so it is very easily accessible. If anyone goes to my website, they can find it where it says adjustment disorder. You can fast track it. The FAA does not need your notes. The FAA doesn't need anything when it comes to a diagnosis. For me, as somebody who owns a practice specifically for aviation professionals, I wouldn't see that as long as it's not impairing your functioning in too many different aspects, so personal, professional, academic, if you want to go back to school, things like that, social, then I really don't see a need for you to have a diagnosis for that because you don't need that label on you.

1:11:25Yeah, so when you're talking about these things, therapy, and like what is the difference between just normal grief and a situation where you should be seeking professional help? You know, how do you kind of like define that line? Yeah, I mean, anyone can seek therapy. The number one thing that I hear from a lot of pilots is I'm just so happy that I have somebody to talk this through. Even at the intake, they're going, whoa, I feel so much better. And it's not because I'm waving a magic wand by any means, but it's somebody that says, hey, you're safe over here. you can say whatever you need to say and get out your frustrations about the FAA.

1:12:05You can get out your frustrations about the job. It's not that you're going to leave the job. It's just that you're really upset about it. And you're still safe to say that. So the major difference is, first off, that grief. You want to make sure that you're kind of going through those motions. Yes, we can get stuck in the, I can't believe that this is happening. I'm really angry at this. But until it's impacting our functioning, I would say leaning on your support system as long as they're still there and open and ready to have you, then that could be sufficient enough. Every single person is different.

1:12:38If they start thinking I have no one to talk to, reach out. Absolutely, 100 % just to say, I need some direction in getting through this. I need somebody to help me find a solution. Or I feel like I'm having 15 million thoughts going through my brain. No, this isn't an anxiety disorder, but I feel very uncertain and I need some comfort here. I'm not going to tell you these magic words, but I'm going to say, here's what we can do. Here's the solution that we can find. So making sure that it's not impacting our functionality. When we notice that we are not having strong coping mechanisms, such as turning to the bottle, making sure that, you know, we are staying in bed longer than we should be.

1:13:23Yes, it's really great to prioritize sleep, but how much is too much sleep? When we're noticing that, you know, we're being snappier with our family and friends. Listen, when your spouse is over here telling you, oh, you're different. I don't, I don't appreciate this. When you see more conflict, that's maybe when we should talk to somebody and you have an hour a week, an hour every other week, even sometimes once a month where you're able to get all of these thoughts out and come to somebody who's able to organize them for you. Now, if you are going to reach out to somebody, I highly recommend that you reach out to somebody who is knowledgeable on the aviation lifestyle because I don't want you wasting your time, you know, like having to explain something to them.

1:14:09So if somebody knows the aviation lifestyle, that's really great. One little caveat is that if somebody uses insurance, they need to be very, very particular about those sorts of diagnoses because insurance is what requires a diagnosis. It's not the FAA that requires a diagnosis. Insurance is the big one. I'm a completely private pay practice because I don't believe that anyone needs to know your business. Insurance has every right to steal those files. And I don't feel like, you know, anyone should know what's going on in your life. If you're able to function at work, great. Yeah. Yeah. Those conversations should be private.

1:14:49And, you know, that's a whole other subject. Absolutely. You know, you mentioned like warning signs. What are some of the warning signs that if you're a spouse or a child of somebody in that situation? What kind of things should you be looking for and be willing to speak up when you see them? Right. So typically when we're talking about warning signs, somebody is going to be like, okay, well, it has to be the person saying that they don't have any motivation to live. No one's going to be completely outright like that immediately. It's going to be the pervasive negative thinking. So we've kind of already talked about on last episode how pilots are kind of prone to that because there has been so much criticism throughout their training.

1:15:39So when we see it amplified in some way of like nothing's going right right now, that all or nothing thinking of, man, I can't do anything right. that's starting some automatic beliefs about ourself. So when we're starting to like outwardly speak those automatic negative thoughts, those ants, and we're not able to swish them and tell them to go away that they don't have any weight. That's when as a spouse, I would say, hey, I've noticed a little different. When somebody is getting a little snappier for a prolonged period of time, we all have our days, sometimes weeks of frustration. But if somebody is getting a little more irritable, snapping, if somebody is not being as productive as they typically would.

1:16:27Now, when you lose your job, a lot of the time you lose a lot of that structure that's there. But if they are like if we talk about missed showers, if we talk about the thought of or them saying like, what's the point? We're starting to see some hopelessness. And that's when it's kind of past the time where it's, hey, like, I think that maybe you should talk to someone. It's you really need to talk to somebody right now because this needs to stop before it gets any worse. When we talk about anxiety, a lot of people can be high functioning. And so they're almost I'm not going to say manic because typically with mania, we will see somebody not sleeping ever for just days at a time or just running on two or three hours of sleep in a manic episode.

1:17:12But when somebody is over-functioning saying, wait, I need to prove my worth. Now that I don't have a job, I need to prove that I'm worthwhile in this household, that I am pulling my weight. And it's no, you don't need proof that you're a valuable member of this household. But a lot of the time it'll be them trying to have a spotless house, especially when there are multiple kids involved. Like, good luck. and then when that house is not clean, then it's almost like a big blow up. They might start trying to micromanage and to control different things that may be out of their control. So when it does come to children, when it does come to, you know, random schedule changes, you might see a little more irritability with that.

1:18:02But that's definitely a time where you say, hey, I think that we need to talk to somebody. I think that we need to set aside just one hour. for you to take care of yourself so you are able to get through this and process it. Right. So, you know, for the people that are going through this right now, what tools out there can they utilize to help, you know, rebuild their identity? Yeah. Yeah. So, first off, I would say definitely stay connected to others in aviation. that could mean talking to people about what they're planning on doing after they've also lost their job. So stay connected with those, maybe people that you have flown with that you feel like you're really connected with.

1:18:46Create structure within your day as well. So that means that we are not laying in bed all day. We need to get up. We need to find a time to exercise. Please, please, please get some movement in. When we are getting our movement in, that is when we are already taking care of our mind and our body. So create that structure, create something to look forward to every day. It doesn't have to be a vacation. It doesn't have to be, you know, a big outing. It can just be like spending 20 minutes with your significant other and sitting down and talking with them. And allow yourself to feel that loss without bypassing it.

1:19:28A lot of the time, again, we've talked about that avoidance, creating more distress, we need to actually be upset over this. It's okay to be upset. We don't want to push this down because when we do, it's going to come out in other ways. Focus on what is in your control. As pilots, we love to be in control. So focus on what you do have. And lastly, I always really want to focus on gratitude again. so when we start with gratitude it's going to be like okay i'm thankful for my parents i'm thankful for my kids i'm thankful for my spouse okay those are the big things i'm thankful i have a roof over my head awesome car drive then we're going to get much smaller after you're like okay i've been through this repetition but laying your head on the pillow and saying what am i truly grateful for you're going to start noticing that throughout the day you're going to say oh i can add that to my gratitude list.

1:20:22Like it could be really stupid. Like at Costco, there's always a line for gas. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so thankful that there was not a line for me to get gas today. So that is like what went right today. I was able to get in and get out at Costco. What went right? I'm so thankful that my kids were in a good mood today because we were able to have true presence there. It's the little things. And those little things are going to make more positive neurological connections and then your life satisfaction is going to increase as well when really nothing has changed but you're going to feel much more hopeful right i mean that's just great advice for everyday living for for everybody across all spectrums right i mean that's just great advice i love it so yeah yeah i i really appreciate you coming on here and uh you know providing, you know, the advice that you do, the insights, and especially the tools out there for people that, you know, are struggling out there.

1:21:28And I know there's a lot of people that are. And, you know, in closing, if a spirit pilot or flight attendant called you, what, you know, what, is there some advice that you would provide to them in that first call? Yeah, absolutely. The main thing, and I feel like I might be a broken record, was it's okay, that you need to be in it for a moment. But we need to make sure that we are regulated before we make major life decisions. I mean, I have had many people who may be in similar positions. I won't say whether it is Spirit, whether it's another company, but somebody that's woken up and suddenly they've lost their job.

1:22:07But I want to tell them that that loss is worth grieving. It's not something silly. I constantly hear people in the aviation community, not just pilots, but crew and then airport operators and ATC as well, that will minimize a lot of what they're going through. Especially I hear, well, at least I have a job. No, that doesn't mean that you still aren't frustrated. It's okay to be frustrated. It's okay to be grateful. It's okay to be really upset that something was just thrown at you when you thought that you were finally getting it right. But what just happened, that loss, it doesn't define your future or your value within this world.

1:22:48You are still so much more. And so you're still the same skilled, capable person that you were 24 hours ago. You've just lost the environment that you were able to express it. And now you have the opportunity to make an impact in a new environment. Yeah, fantastic advice. And I'm glad that's been reiterated throughout this. And I truly hope that it gets through to, you know, the people that are struggling. And, you know, they do seek help if they need it through you or, you know, whatever other means that that is. and uh so i appreciate you being here um we'll we'll keep doing this i mean i can sit here and talk for hours with you um about all of these things and there's there's just so much to pack in every time so we'll we'll leave this part of it with this episode and uh and uh go on to the next one.

1:23:54Amazing. Yep. So thank you so much for being here again, and we'll see you next time. Of course, yeah. Thanks for having me.

1:24:23Thank you.