EP7 - The Aviation Therapist, Selling the Westwind, and What Comes Next

20:44So, anyway, TBM 700C2, some of those are, like, kind of mid, like, million, one five, like, for a good one. I mean, you could probably find one with a more run-out engine and maybe the older Avidyne system avionics for, like, you know, the lower millions.

21:04Bob:Yeah. What is the difference between those Avidynes and the Garmins? So, the Garmin is just simple, right? The Garmin is intuitive. It's simple. It's fast. I've flown a little bit of G1000 in the Cirrus. They're all going to be a little bit of a learning curve. The Avidyne has more button presses. It's just an older, more kind of, I mean, I don't want to say it's an archaic system because it's not, not compared to what we're used to. There's more, it's less integrated, right? So with the Garmin, everything is connected, whether it's the radios, you know, the GPS, the flight management, the pitostatic engine management.

21:41In the Garmin, everything is in the Garmin ecosystem. And it's just seamless, which is really, really nice. You don't have any lag on the screens when you push buttons. I don't know that the, I mean, I haven't operated that Avidyne. We had an Avidyne in the Citation, if you remember.

22:01Bob:It wasn't a PFD, but we had an Avidyne, like, display, GPS display. Right, yeah, I remember that. Yeah. So, I mean, it's imperfect, but it's certainly, I mean, I wouldn't kick one out of bed. You know what I mean?

22:20I mean, I would definitely, I mean, look, if it comes to us buying an airplane that has an Avidyne, I'm not going to say no. If it's got good times on the motor and it's been well cared for and operated pretty regularly, not a hanger queen, I'll go Avidyne.

22:36Bob:Yeah. So every time I mention the single engine turboprop and bring up the Piper turboprops, everybody starts kind of dogging them. They shouldn't. I don't even understand what the difference is between the TBM and like those M-series Pipers. They look similar. The TBM is a better looking airplane. I mean, and it's more of a real airplane. Like the Piper is more of a GA aircraft, like, you know, everything from like panel switches and buttons like that. It's it feels more like like a Cherokee six. No, but yeah, it's more like it's like more like a GA airplane. Right. It's not a pro. It's like it's the kind of airplane that doesn't feel like it needs to it should fly every day.

23:24Like you feel like you wear stuff out. Whereas, you know, I mean, it's like the West Wind versus the Citation. right? You get into Citation and everything is flimsy switches. And then you get into the West Wind and it's like a DC-9. So it's kind of, I think there's that difference. The TBM is larger physically, but the real difference is in speed and payload.

23:44Bob:Yeah. I know payload is a big, big thing with it. Yeah. You're not going to fly four passengers plus a pilot, five people with full fuel in the Piper. You're not. But then you have variants of that as well. So you have the M 600 and seven like there's the newer ones which forget about those they're very expensive yeah so you go back to the meridian which uh i don't even know when they ended the meridian and started the those m series numbers yeah there's there's overlap so there's actually overlap between the two we so our price range i would say and you know based on the business and and and our use Like our sweet spot is going to be somewhere in like the 1.2, 1.4 range maybe.

24:30And in that range, you're looking at older, early M500s or later model, newer, lower time Meridians. And then maybe really, really nice jet props. So the Piper jet prop, which is the Malibu Mirage with a conversion, a turbine conversion. So it came out of the factory with a piston engine in it, pressurized.

24:57Bob:I didn't know that they had conversion airplanes too. Yeah, the jet prop. So you get a Malibu Mirage, put a PT-6 on it. They actually extend the nose section. So there's an extra cargo compartment between the engine and the firewall, which is kind of cool. Or maybe it's behind the firewall, between the firewall and the panel. and um but but again with that airplane it's also worth looking at you can find some for 700 800 maybe even a million like for like really really nicer ones but because they're a modified airplane they're a little bit more limited and you know the the it's just i don't know exactly what the difference is, but there's a speed difference for sure.

25:47The Meridian and the M500, they're really like 250 knot airplanes, which fine, you know, I'm good with it. Most of the time it's me and you and our, you know, me or you and our wives, maybe one kid, maybe a grandkid in your case, you know, maybe a couple of dogs in mine. The only trade-off is that you're going to have to make fuel stops if you have a full load.

26:13Bob:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I probably would have like one, one, maybe two, three passengers. But for the most part, I mean, it might even just be myself going back and forth between Kentucky and Arizona. How are you going to stay awake? He's got an autopilot, right?

26:38I mean, so does your Mercedes.

26:42Bob:i know i need a tesla with the self-driving no you don't you can't close your eyes man and like it'll wake you up and stop and stuff yeah that's my mercedes will actually do that i can actually it'll stay in the lane and it will you know turn and it kind of self-drives but you got to keep your hands on the steering wheel and if it senses that you don't after like 10 seconds yeah it starts beeping and flashing and then it we'll come into an emergency stop right in the middle of the road. Kind of like the Waymos do when I'm in the back of them. Those things feel like they stop all the time in the middle of traffic for me, man.

27:21So anyway, I feel like our, I think that we're going to end up going like Meridian, M500. Like, I think we're going to go, I think we're going to go Piper because I think at the end of the day, unless the right deal comes along with a TBM 700 C2, I think the Piper is adequate. And I think we'll run it for five years maybe, and then hopefully be in a position to trade up.

27:48Bob:Yeah, exactly. I mean, it kind of makes sense. It'd be a good starting point. I mean, if it doesn't work out, I always sell it and upgrade to the TBM or whatever. Yeah, exactly, man. Get the Vision Jet. Like, everybody's going to ask us why we're not talking about the Vision Jet. I like the Vision Jet. I mean, honestly, the only real reason, it's a numbers game. It's cost. And it is inferior to a lot of the single engine turboprops as far as the mission. But look, if my mission was just Nantucket and an occasional Florida hop, okay, the Vision Jet makes sense if it was in the budget. For you, it's kind of a pain.

28:27Yeah. Yeah. You're going to stop. I mean, it does have like, it is like hands-off autopilot, like, perfection.

28:35Bob:It is a cool airplane. I do like it. But, you know, I started looking at the numbers and everything. It's just, you know, cost-wise, you know, if you look at it from the financial side, you know, yeah. I mean, I think for our mission and what we're doing, the Piper's looking pretty good. It's quiet. A big part of it is also the wives. My wife and your wife have very similar, you know, standards. Don't get us in trouble here. Look, Avery is a trooper. She's gotten in the Cherokee once, and she used to get in the Aerostar all the time. Now, she would have to take a Xanax to do it, but she definitely spent a fair bit of time in the Aerostar going up to Nantucket and up to Boston and stuff.

29:21So she is a trooper, but she wants something that's cabin class. I mean, she wants something that's pressurized and air conditioned. I mean, so do I. Yeah.

29:30Bob:And frankly, I want something that I'm not like scared of. Yeah. Well, you know, yeah. I want something that it's just you don't have to be out there like flying it every week to feel comfortable in it. Exactly, man. Well, listen, we've we've rambled for 30 minutes. We got an hour long interview to go. Let's let's cut to that interview. And then next week, hopefully we'll have something a little better visually than we have this week. It's just talking heads this week, but I am going to get that Westwind thing sealed up. And, hey, maybe we'll have good news. We also have potentially a pretty interesting trip to fly next week.

30:09Bob:Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk more about that next week. We'll see what happens. Yeah, we may be doing it from the road, actually. We might be doing a pod from the road. I think we might have to go to Joburg. That would be pretty cool in itself. It would be, man. All right. Cool airplane, too. Enjoy Dr. Powell and we will see you next week. We'll see y 'all.

30:39Bob:All right. Well, on today's episode, it's about a subject that honestly I wish was talked about a lot more now. We talk a lot about, you know, performance, training, flying airplanes, you know, in aviation. But we don't talk a whole lot about what goes on upstairs in our brains. In aviation, I don't think that's accidental. I think it's more of a cultural thing. We're really trained to compartmentalize and not talk about things, keep it outside of the cockpit. Unfortunately, it overflows into our personal lives. So today I've got Dr. Abigail Powell. She's known as the aviation therapist. She works specifically with pilots and, well, everybody in aviation for that matter, about anxiety, ADHD.

31:32Bob:I mean, you name it. But the important part is how do we deal with all of that stuff without wrecking our careers? So welcome to the pod, Dr. Powell. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to have you here. I've followed along on Instagram and seen your website, and it's an area that's very interesting to me, and it hits on some personal levels. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been, like you said, I'm a licensed psychologist. So I have my doctorate in clinical psychology. I also have a certification in basically food as medicine. So it's called, I'm a certified mental health and nutrition clinical specialist.

32:19So basically, I'm trying to do everything to avoid adding medications when unnecessary. Because when just growing up in general, I mean, I come from a long line of pilots, a long line of flight attendants as well. With my grandparents meeting while my grandmother was a flight attendant, my grandfather was a pilot. If you all know Braniff. Oh, yeah.

32:47Bob:Know Braniff well. Bob's old enough to know. That's very cool. Yeah. And then my father, he's still, he's a pilot for major. And then I have three siblings that are pilots. And I guess, gosh, about four years ago, my husband came home. He was working as a SEAL. And we were on the East Coast. And he kind of sets down his bag and he goes, what about aviation for my next career? And I was like, are you kidding me? What is the family business? And so now the person, the licensed psychologist is now left out. And I've kind of noticed a lot of patterns just with people that I had worked with who happened to be pilots.

33:33And just even in my own family, going through the training, there was an increase in hypervigilance, increase in anxiety, which is a natural emotion. It doesn't have to be a disorder, but an increase in that pressure. I mean, rightfully so, you're carrying hundreds of passengers, possibly. That's what you're training to do. And so not realizing that there was really a need for this, especially now that there have been so many changes that the FAA has made that has not gotten around to people, where there still is the mindset of you are weak if you seek therapy or that you may lose your entire career, what you've built your entire identity over.

34:14if you do seek some support, which you rightfully deserve. Sure. Yeah. Let me jump back just a little bit because I want to frame this properly. But first, I do want to kind of digress slightly and say, Dr. Powell, I have the opposite experience as you. I'm the only pilot in my family, and both of my parents are therapists. That is so funny. Yeah, my mother is semi-retired at this point. She was in private practice for many, many years in Pennsylvania. And my stepfather, for all intents and purposes, my father growing up was a psychologist in the New Jersey State Maximum Security Prison System.

34:57You know, better than me. So dealing with pilots and maximum security inmates, there's probably some parallels there. You and my father would have a good talk. But anyway, on a more serious note, I've been somewhat vocal on social media about this and in the cockpit with Bob due to some circumstances. We lost a friend of ours to suicide who was a pilot not long ago. We could potentially get into that later. But mental health and aviation is such a topic that needs to be discussed more. I am very much behind this whole concept getting out there, and I'm very excited to have you on for this purpose.

35:42In my opinion, and, you know, this is strictly my observation, aviation is one of those, you know, being a pilot, I will say being a pilot, is one of those jobs that is high stress and high pressure, right, which that creates an environment of anxiety, you know, between check rides. You know, these are jeopardy events, they call them. Your job is on the line before a check ride, you know, every six months if you're a captain at the airlines. And and then, of course, you know, the pressure of trips delaying and passengers and flight attendants and gate agents and all these outside pressures, they create a very high stress environment.

36:18But I think the bigger issue, especially as it relates to airline pilots, is especially for those pilots that have loved ones, family, you know, wives, children at home. It's a job that takes you away from your family. And that in itself creates a dynamic where, you know, there could be trust issues. There could be different things that happen in a relationship when the two people aren't around. And so that compounds things. So so all together, you know, you have this high stress environment. You're you're not with the people that you're closest with. You're separated from them, removed from them from periods of time.

36:57And you're operating in an environment where mental health is stigmatized and and medication is completely not a solution that's that's possible. So it's like the worst of every world how pilots, speaking for pilots, just they can't get the support that they need. And most pilots need some sort of therapy support. They need to talk. They need to get things out there in the open. So it's just such an underrated thing that isn't talked about. And I'm really glad to have you on. And with that said.

37:33Bob:You can tell we're very passionate about this whole subject. So I love that. I love that. I really think that I mean, when when working with pilots, it's very rarely actually the job. It's more so what's going on at home, that inability to switch from being hyper vigilant, from having to make sure that you have everything together, even when you're walking around the airport. I mean, this could be your first time in Orlando, and then you have somebody coming up going, hey, where is this terminal? Hey, where's this gate? And you're like, I don't know. I just flew overnight here. And this is my first time, too.

38:13But you can't say that. You're expected to represent, even if you are running on very little sleep, even if you are trying to decompress from maybe a very high turbulence flight. And so you can't really talk to your loved ones about that. And they're going to say, but you have the coolest job in the world. And I mean, probably every session a pilot's going, I know my job's really cool. I get it. And I'm going, OK, well, I never said that your job was really cool. I mean, sure.

38:43Bob:Every pilot has it in his own head. I am cool. I'm cool, I swear. They're going, I know this job is really cool. And it almost is a, wow, you should be lucky. You shouldn't be complaining. And then that just minimizes and invalidates everything that they're going through. And so it's, yeah, your spouse or your child could have gone through something extremely traumatic, whether it be a miscarriage, a death in the family. And then you're supposed to carry on like there's nothing, nothing wrong because you're expected to provide. Well, that's where the compartmentalization thing comes in, you know, that's, you know, because that's.

39:24Bob:I mean, look, I've lived that life. You know, I worked overseas and I was like, you know, gone for six weeks at a time. All kinds of family things would happen in the meantime, you know, that I felt guilty about. I wanted to be there, but I couldn't. And I had to just block it off. You kind of build barriers to separate your two worlds. You have your work life and you have your home life. And in most cases, that's the one thing that that is nice about being a line pilot, you know, for an airline or a charter company is when you leave work, you're able to kind of separate. But but whether pilots, whether people do or not, most pilots that I know, their colleagues are their friends outside as well, because it's also one of those jobs where there's not a lot of situational commonality.

40:16Right. With with Earthlings, as we call them, we non pilots, non aviation people. I've heard them referred to as earthlings. And so there's not there's not a lot of similarity in, you know, in a nine to five job and an airline pilot's job. And so we tend to gravitate towards other people that are experiencing the same things. Right. A lot of it is that that it's the expectation to be hypervigilant, being very type A, but then also the expectation of being very flexible. And you don't really get that in other careers. So the constant changing, the constant need to switch around the, hey, are you working?

40:58And they're on reserve and they're going, I don't know. OK, well, do you want to go out to dinner? Well, I mean, I might get called in an hour or two and then I have about two hours to be at the airport. So yes and no is the answer. So it's that you can't really be consistent. You can't really make consistent plans over that time. But also, I mean, how many jobs can you think of that expect you to be both perfect in everything that you do? Because if you make a mistake, it can cost lives. While also you have to be flexible with everything. And so you have to immediately switch because those two seconds could cost lives.

41:38Bob:Yeah. So we have determined that aviation is uniquely bad for your mental health. Well, not inherently. So it just has its unique risk factors. So we're talking about irregular sleep schedules. We're talking about that chronic fatigue, that time away from home. So you're less access to even nutritious food options while away because we all have the things that we like at home. You have that meal that's really not the best for you, especially when we talk about how we are what we eat. If we're not eating very nutritious, high-protein foods, then how are we supposed to feel our best? My God, you should see our catering.

42:20So it's interesting. So you mentioned food and then you mentioned, well, previous prior to that, you mentioned fatigue. And I want to cover that real quick because we operate on some pretty tiring, exhausting trips, long hauls across the planet, you know, sometimes 15, 20 hours in the cockpit. And then, you know, and then we're at a level by the time we get back to reality and make that call to the, you know, to our spouses when we land, we're coming from a point of fatigue. So one thing that I've noticed from my early 20s all the way, I'm 48 years old now, my entire career is once I am at a level where I'm fatigued emotionally, I find that my emotions are very, very heightened.

43:02And I'm very, I'm a lot more impatient and I'm a lot more prone to arguing with my wife. and really on the front end of a trip before I go, great. I could deal with any situation. But like after being awake for a long time or in a different time zone and I get on the phone, something that would normally would just roll right off my back.

43:27Bob:That's the way you are with me, Steve. Well, yeah, because I'm always fatigued near you. But I mean, there's a definite correlation between heightened emotional states and fatigue. Would you agree? Absolutely. I mean, if we talk about the limbic system, which is it includes the amygdala, so it's in charge of our fight or flight. And so I'll kind of focus more so on that. And so it can activate our sympathetic nervous system. So that fight or flight, that heightened emotion, it's more easily activated when we are fatigued because we're already using so much mental energy, maybe not so much physical energy.

44:05But when we're flying a plane, it does take a lot of mental load. That's what you've been trained to do. And so you are going to be more exhausted. You are going to be possibly a bit more jumpy, a bit more willing to get in arguments because you don't have your frontal lobe that's really more in charge of emotional regulation, the complex thinking. You don't really have that working in your favor at that moment. It's when you're constantly fatigued, you're not going to be making those neurological connections nearly as fast. Right. And, you know, when Bob and I are both fatigued and we're conversing, we're coming from a similar place.

44:47And and I think that there's definitely a disconnect between, you know, myself in China at 6 a.m. versus 6 p.m. Right. You know, I'm fatigued at at at 6 p.m. and I'm ready to go to bed and it's 6 a.m. and she's awake and about to go to the gym. And we're coming from very different places. There's a there's a disconnect between her frame of mind and my frame of mind, which is kind of not a good idea to to talk about serious, important things in those states. And like, right, we might be coming off of 20 hours of not speaking and there may be some important things to cover. One way that I know that I've found to deal with that, that in those type of situations, we generally text and maybe save the phone call for the next day.

45:37Yeah, that's I mean, that's a big thing. I know that you said earlier something very specific about like when you're at work, you're at work. When you're at home, you're at home. And then you said, well, when I land, I call my wife. Well, I think a lot of people forget that pilots often may not do that because they're at work in their head. They're like, oops, my bad. But they're at work. And so I've always encouraged a lot of pilots, if they're thinking about it, if they even have Wi-Fi, if they know when they're going to land, schedule a text to be sent. Hey, thinking of you about to land. I mean, I don't know if they have access to tracking tail number or anything like that.

46:15I know some wives do. Some wives don't. Some people like it. Some people don't. If that's what makes them comfortable, great. As long as it doesn't heighten anxiety, go on ahead. But I've found that scheduling texts for when they land, so that text won't be sent unless you do have some sort of cellular service. So it'll send when you're safe and on the ground. So scheduling that's going to be really beneficial because it's going to make your spouse feel like you're thinking of them in that moment. That's a great one. Yeah, of course, you know, over the years I can think of so many times where, well, you've been on the ground for four hours and why haven't you, you know, called?

47:03Well, you know, story of my life. There's a lot going on. I have no excuse, you know. And that can lead to an argument and then it just compounds over the course of a trip. I know that I'm primarily dealing with like the relationship aspect and that's, of course, only one, but I think major aspect of the relationship. So, yeah.

47:25Bob:So, Steve, you bring up a good point with the fatigue thing. And this is going to lead me into kind of this FAA medical kind of a questionnaire kind of a thing. So, you know, I notice, you know, from fatigue, especially the long international stuff coming back, the jet lag, it kind of throws you into a state of depression for about a week or so. and you know it I kind of have to just you know I I've I've realized what's happening you know over the years and and I've found you know ways to to deal with it which is usually just you know all right I've just got to you know plot get through this and you know do my normal things and uh you know my head's gonna clear and yeah I'm not gonna have this foggy brain in a week.

48:24Bob:But I think just from personal experience, I think it kind of causes some depression. And I kind of wonder how that's affected some pilots with some of the mental issues, with substance abuse, those type of things. So, and again, now from a pilot's point of view, you go, wow, I kind of have these feelings, but I can't talk to anybody about it. What, you know, what if I talk to a therapist, even an airline pilot who has, you know, these things available to them? Yeah. I mean, heaven forbid we talk to somebody and ask for some sort of support because, I mean, essentially support, it looks different than what it did 20, 30 years ago.

49:15And so therapy, yes, it is more popular now. I mean, mainly because one, we talk about it more. So when we talk about social media, I mean, you've got everyone under the face of the earth trying to be some sort of therapist and say something that may be clever in that moment that may resonate with an audience. But in a nutshell, seeing a therapist is not going to equal the loss of your medical. So it's a lot of the time, poor documentation by the therapist not being prepared for your medical. Because if somebody's taking a proactive approach, meaning knowing that they are seeking assistance before something escalates, there's a chance that they may not even have a diagnosis.

50:07Bob:So with that, and sorry to interrupt you, but so the diagnosis part is something that we always hear. Oh, well, you can get therapy without a diagnosis and you don't have to report it type of a thing. And so that brings me to the question of therapy versus coaching. I see that you are a licensed therapist and you do therapy in Texas, but you also offer coaching. What is the difference there? Yeah, so huge thing. So when seeking therapy, first off, if they do have a diagnosis, which a licensed therapist is able to give, any skilled therapist would say, hey, you don't qualify for this. So a lot of the times when using insurance, because a lot of people say don't go, don't go with your insurance, mainly because insurance does require a diagnosis when sending in claims.

51:09And so you are almost required to, if you take insurance, to send in some sort of diagnosis. Some insurance will give you like three sessions in order to make a diagnosis, but basically they're taking a very reactive approach to it. for me because I am out of network, I do not give a diagnosis unless a diagnosis criteria is met. And then we will talk about that from there. But pilots do need to disclose a diagnosis, any medications that they may be prescribed, as well as certain treatments, if any. But that does not mean an automatic denial. So with therapy, therapy has the ability to treat diagnosable mental health conditions or even just anxiety trauma or depressive symptoms because we say depression but in reality a major depressive a major depressive disorder is going to it's going to mean a prolonged state of depression not just a couple weeks not even just a month but it is very prolonged you have to meet certain criteria and anybody trained in in something like mental health diagnosis is going to know that.

52:24So being proactive, a lot of the time they won't even qualify for a diagnosis and they're just getting tools in order to prevent and then increase distress tolerance. So with therapy. Yeah.

52:37Bob:So I think the question is the pilots have is like, okay, well, if I seek any of that, do I have to report it on my medical? And I'm not asking you for legal advice or anything. Yeah, I was going to actually interject on that same note, Bob. So when you're filling out a medical form, there's a question that says, have you visited any health professionals? Mm-hmm. Right? You know, every time I go in for a medical, every year I rack my brain to think about any possible visit I've had to any type of health professional. The expectation is that a mental health professional counts as a reportable item on that.

53:17Is that correct? Yeah. And when not reporting it, if you are especially disclosing a diagnosis and treatments, especially medication, there can be some major consequences to that. When reporting something like that, you can easily just circle yes. And then your AME can go, hey, I noticed this change. And you said, yeah, my dog died. We had a death in the family. We went through a miscarriage. Or I had just switched airplanes and the training was really exhausting. And so I decided to talk to someone, but there was no diagnosis with it. Or they diagnosed me with adjustment disorder. That's an approved diagnosis from the FAA.

54:02And the AME can easily just say, great, there's a decision tool that they use that as long as everything says no on it, you're good to go. They're not even going to converse with the FAA on it. It really is that simple. But with coaching... So it's like the gateway, the gatekeeper there is the AME in that case, the aviation medical examiner. Yes. And on my Instagram, I have a lot of information when it comes to their disposition table, their decision tools, what they should use. So I always encourage my clients to look those up and print them out because sometimes AMEs are not informed. They do have annual trainings they need to do, but sometimes they don't.

54:47And so I'm huge on advocating for yourself in that sort of medical setting. So if you need to seek some help, then I'm like, I basically spoon feed you here the tools that you need to bring. And you say, the answer to all of these should be no. This is what you're supposed to do. So fast track me right along. And it should be simple.

55:09Bob:Yeah. I always recommend to people that ask if they're looking for an AME to get, you know, to get their medical, to establish a relationship with your AME, because over the course of your career, there will be things. There will be things. And you want to be able to go to somebody and have them have a greater understanding of who you are. Medically, maybe that includes mentally as well. And I'll give one example. I had shoulder surgery in December. And leading up to that, my thought is, how will this affect my FAA medical? I know that I'm going to be reporting this. What can I do? At what point can I go back to work?

55:53If they prescribe me medication, can I take it? Do I tell my doctor not to prescribe any medication? My AME in my case said, there's not a hard and fast rule to when you can go back to work. It's when you feel like you're capable as long as you're not taking any type of psychoactive pain medications. And I ended up never taking a single pain med, like not even Tylenol because I didn't need it. In my situation, I was lucky. But in the case, he said to me that, you know, if you are on pain medication, you have to disclose that. And then a period of time has to pass, weeks, maybe even a month from the last time you took that medication before you can return to work.

56:31But that's a conversation that I was very comfortable having with my AME because I've known the guy for 12 years and he knows me and he asks about my kids. And, you know, having that relationship, I think, is important. So if possible, my recommendation is always find an AME you like, stick with that AME. Would you concur with that? Oh, I would agree 100%. And typically those AMEs know other AMEs that they have met at conferences, trainings. So eventually when they do retire, they will have somebody else that they would encourage you to go to. And usually just kind of name dropping, yes, I came from this person, they're retiring now.

57:07And then usually that already sets a strong relationship of trust. If you have a trustworthy AME that knows others, then you're going to create other very positive relationships with your next AME.

57:21Bob:Yeah. So along those same lines, a question I get a lot from younger pilots is, look, I was an ADHD kid. They prescribed me Ritalin or whatever, and I got this diagnosis. And now it's asking me on this medical to start pilot training, did I ever have a diagnosis of ADHD? And should I lie? Or can they find out? I get this question all the time. Well, this is a real thing. This is a really important thing. And if any. Yeah. I'm sure you've run across this numerous times. So there are two different tracks that you can take if I mean, there's so many people and I could go on about the education system.

58:08There's a reason why I'm homeschooling my three kids. And so I mean, the education system was not meant for six year olds who want to run around when you're expected to sit down. And so a lot of the times it is looking for how can we make this child comply? And so it's, oh, this child, they have a lot of energy. We did a battery of tests and they qualify for an ADHD diagnosis without looking at different lifestyle factors or other things that may be impacting behavior. So, yes, it comes up all the time. And having a past diagnosis doesn't automatically disqualify you from what you need. So if you have that clear documentation, always encourage parents to keep that documentation.

58:55If you have taken medication or have sought treatment for that ADHD within, let's say, about two years, I believe it actually is four years, but for medication specifically, then you can take an ADHD fast track route where you don't even go through the FAA. So if you have had no treatment whatsoever, if you have basically been clean managing your symptoms and haven't taken a single simulant or medication for ADHD, you can go and you can get an evaluation by any psychologist or neuropsychologist. So it's basically a clinical interview. Then they'll look over your records and make sure that there's nothing that might stand out.

59:44I'm qualified to do this. And so we would look at, okay, well, I see here that you're coming in 2026, but I noticed that your pharmacy records say that you picked up your Ritalin in 2024. Unfortunately, this is going to raise a red flag and this wouldn't even establish trust with someone like me. But it would say, okay, well, let's take now the standard track, which means You have sought treatment, you have had medication, and you would seek an evaluation from what is called a HIMSS neuropsychologist. So that HIMSS neuropsychologist would then do an eval and state whether or not you are able to function.

1:00:27And they would just perform a battery of tests to state if that ADHD is actually impacting you. But the biggest mistake is truly ignoring it and just hoping it doesn't come up because sometimes it really creeps up. And it's just it's so much better to approach it strategically.

1:00:43Bob:Yeah, it's I mean, that's great advice and that's great information. There's so much misinformation about that one particular thing, ADHD out there, especially with this younger generation. Would you say that ADHD tends to be overdiagnosed? I feel like it was a long time ago. Has that improved? What are your thoughts on that? Criteria is definitely changing constantly. So every several years we get a new diagnostic manual, they're constantly looking over different ways to diagnose, especially children. So it really depends on the training from the psychologist that is doing the assessments. I would agree that in a lot of cases, ADHD can be misdiagnosed.

1:01:33So we typically see a group of symptoms as a diagnosis, when in reality, that's actually not what is happening in the brain. And the majority of the time, a diagnosis does not have anything to do with a brain scan. And so you might see children that are given Pop-Tarts as the first meal of the day, limited water, limited sunlight and exercise, constantly being expected to be on screens. All of that can mimic ADHD symptoms. For us personally, I mean, having three young kids, we notice drastic improvement when we cut off screen time, cut out sugar, cut out food dyes, and increase protein in their diet.

1:02:16So it is a huge change. And I not only want to avoid medicating, not just because my four-year-old is planning on one day being a pilot with his little plastic simulator, but because I don't know how that might affect him in the long run. And so it can be extremely helpful for those who do need it. However, the majority of kids without those lifestyle changes, you won't really know. Interesting.

1:02:48Bob:Yeah. Steve, I think you need more protein in your diet. I certainly do. Well, let's talk about the nutritional angle and not just, you know, for children. I mean, what about for pilots? What about for air traffic controllers, people that are in this high stress situation? How important is diet when it comes to mental health and performing someone's job? And what things can people do proactively with their diet to combat that? Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, diet is extremely important, mostly because it really is something that it feels like it's a bit out of our control. but really it is one of those things that we do have a lot more control of.

1:03:32It just means that we might have to put a little more effort in and prioritize it a bit. So there is access to healthy food for a lot of pilots, and there is access to things that may allow you to prioritize protein. Yes, it's going to take some research. So it's probably not going to taste as good as the sugary snacks or the fried food. Bob. But in reality, it is going to impact your sleep dramatically. When we talk about something that's so important for brain health, I always stress omega-3s. Anyone that I talk to who says, you know, I might be dealing with low mood and we're not really dealing with maybe a depressive disorder situation, I'm asking how they're getting their omega-3s because we don't really take a lot of fish into our diet.

1:04:27However, there have been studies that have shown that omega-3s can have tremendous mental health benefits. So it might improve focus in some people. It might improve mood. It's not going to be like a medication where suddenly you are feeling like you have more serotonin in your body. However, it is almost like a supplement where you can improve your maybe ability or your motivation to do something. So if we have the motivation to begin with, we want to do something, we just kind of need the proper diet, the proper tools, then it can make a world of difference. Sugar, my feeling is that sugar is one of those things that's probably even more than a lack of nutrition.

1:05:18like the sugar causes those blood sugar spikes right and and and that's really difficult with managing your energy like a big part of long haul flying is is getting is managing that burn that energy burn from fresh till the end you know you've got to you've got to prolong it so you have that right and i find personally that sugar is is like spikes it right and then drops it so You get like the spikes and the troughs and the spikes and the troughs. Yeah, so you have the - I thought that's the only way to we fly. I didn't know any difference. I was wondering if the shape is being grown. I was wondering if they were being a little - Big shape.

1:05:59Bob:I've got a - Here, I've got a giant bag of M &M's as well. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Bob is notorious, mostly through cockpit casual videos, Bob is notorious for his sugar consumption. It's hilarious. Definitely a junk pizza. Pizza and sugar. It won't be passive-aggressive in any way. But yes, so when we have those refined sugars or just carbohydrates in general, so what it's going to do is it's going to spike our glucose. And what we need is we need those fats to kind of carry that spike over. And then after the fats are done, then the protein is going to take more control. So then it's going to slowly go down.

1:06:39But that protein should hold you up until it's time to eat again. and with with flying in general especially those long hauls it's so hard to stay and keep a routine and so even just having small snacks and being able to just slowly give yourself little glucose bumps it's going to make a world of difference when you are on those long haul flights and so you're not going to feel that major crash but instead if you are having something i mean you had peanut m &m so in my head i'm trying to say okay well at least there are peanuts in there so you have some fats it's healthy the beacon of health right there so you have that glucose that's going to spike and then the peanuts are going to carry it forward and so now all you got to do maybe have a chomps meat stick or something uh to really carry it through until your next time to eat yeah we've usually got beef

1:07:36Bob:jerky. We're good. Let's go through like a hypothetical trip. Let's say we're starting in the U.S., so we're coming off of our home time zone, haven't flown a trip in a week, coming off of eight to 10 hours of good sleep, show up at the airplane at 10 o 'clock in the morning, and we've got 15 hours of flying ahead of us. What would be a good strategy a good meal strategy to approach a 15-hour flying day, a 20-hour duty day with 15 hours of flying in it, coming off of good sleep? Yeah. So, I mean, if you're able to meal prep at all, that would be amazing. I'm a huge supporter of overnight oats.

1:08:24If my husband's listening to this, that is like his daily meal. And so it's very high in fiber, so it's going to keep you full and it's going to carry that energy throughout many hours. So overnight oats, it's got a decent amount of protein, like I said, fiber, yogurt. So if you're able to bring some sort of cooler or something, that is amazing and it's very filling, especially in the morning. So I don't want people to think of breakfast foods as breakfast foods, dinner foods as dinner foods, as if they almost have a category. But instead thinking, okay, well, what's going to sustain this energy?

1:08:59So if we have the ability to microwave something, then even meal prepping something like a casserole, I usually try to limit dairy because it can be inflammatory. However, for a lot of these cases, I'm really just a big proponent of finding anything where you can get some sort of protein in, some sort of fat, instead of just carbohydrates. Because carbohydrates are so much easier to get. You're not going to worry about what your carb is going to be. So instead of giving you a direct plan because everybody's eating habits are different, I would encourage you to say plan your protein first, then plan the fat, and then find the carbohydrate because the carbohydrate is the easiest one.

1:09:44Okay. So prioritize that protein overall. And rather than having specific times where you eat and get full. So my personal strategy usually, and this is probably completely wrong. I try to fill myself up at breakfast. I try to eat as much as I can. Protein, I'll get eggs. I'll eat some fruit. I usually eat a yogurt because I get blocked up when I'm on trips. I get very, very blocked up very easily. So and it's either like the opposite direction or that direction. It's never just right on a trip. So I try to, you know, I try to get some yogurt in early, but I do try to eat protein. But I generally that also means a lot of fat.

1:10:27So a lot of times my trip starts at a hotel breakfast buffet. So there's every option in the world. Right. So I'll get a bunch of bacon, a bunch of eggs. I'll get, you know, a croissant. I'll get a chocolate croissant. I'll get potatoes and I'll eat as much as I possibly can, thinking that this will get me through the first six to eight hours and then I'll eat another meal and then I'll eat another meal. I don't really snack, but I've heard like it's probably better to portion it out more over a longer period of time. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, so I like having more snacks because the more you eat at once, it'll possibly be like the faster your glucose will spike.

1:11:12And then you're also first thing in the morning giving your digestive system a lot of work. So your cortisol is often highest in the morning because when we wake up, we immediately have kind of a cortisol increase. That's how we open our eyes. It's almost like our body is giving us a, hey, we're turning on the on button. So we're saying, okay, I'm awake. What am I supposed to do now? And then our digestive system is going to slowly start running. So instead of grabbing the coffee first, wait until after you have protein for the coffee. It's not only going to help you absorb it, but it's going to make the caffeine last longer.

1:11:48Instead, have some water first. Typically, it's recommended 30 ounces, but I know that people are like, come on. Seriously? 30 ounces before caffeine? These days I force feed water into my body because hydration is so important in that. And I actually get like those little LMNTs. I've been on a huge LMNT tear. Just I'll use like a quarter of a packet over the course of four bottles of water. Right. So there's a little flavor. It's not too salty. It's not too sweet. It's kind of salty. You know, the LMNTs.

1:12:20Bob:Those have helped me with fatigue on these long trips. That's because you're drinking more water, Bob, I think is what it is. The hydration is huge. You're absolutely right. Yeah, it's a huge aspect. Just staying hydrated, it's massive. But something that you kind of mentioned was that you were noticing that you kind of get stopped up. So a lot of the time, increased cortisol can be due to almost kind of keeping that emotion in, so keeping that stress in. Of course, we're supposed to be hypervigilant. We're probably a little more anxious when we are flying because a moderate amount of anxiety is helpful.

1:12:57It's good for us. It keeps us safe and alert. It's how we're not going to fall asleep while flying the plane. So a moderate amount of anxiety is great. However, when our cortisol, so our stress hormone, is spiked a little too high and we're compartmentalizing all of it, then our body is going to do the same because of that mind-body connection.

1:13:18Bob:And so here's something that I wonder as I age, I'm almost 60 years old. You know, what's the long-term effects on those cortisol spikes? Does that have anything to do with, you know, the, you know, burnout? I mean, burnout, heart palpitations. So people are going to their cardiologist going, I have no idea what's going on. And the cardiologist is like, you're just stressed. Well, if we did some vagus nerve work, which that vagus nerve is the it's basically the passageway from our brain to our body. It's that mind body connection. We did some vagus nerve work and toned it up a bit using some mindfulness strategies.

1:14:04Then we actually might not have those heart palpitations. We might not feel nauseated. We might not have symptoms such as IBS. So a lot of these people who are having increased blood pressure and possible weight gain because they feel like they're holding so much stress in, a lot of it can be solved through vagus nerve work and decreasing those cortisol levels naturally. That's interesting. My wife actually, she's completely up on all this stuff. She's in the healthcare side of things as well. But she actually bought a stimulator that electrically stimulates the vagus nerve. Very aware of these kind of things.

1:14:51Yeah. Is that something that we should give a try? Actually, I'm not 100 % sure if, because it's called vagus nerve stimulation, you actually might have to report that to the FAA. Really? Wow. Mm-hmm. When used professionally, yeah. So that might be reportable. So what I usually focus on is something called progressive muscle relaxation, a lot of mindfulness. So progressive muscle relaxation, it's the activity of breathing in, tightening certain parts of your body and then relaxing them as you're breathing out. We don't really notice that we are holding so much stress in our feet at that time.

1:15:34If you think about it, especially those who have to wear a uniform with specific shoes, they're not really the most supportive. So if we're not wearing supportive shoes, then our feet are going to hold a lot of our stress. And then it's going to rise up into our ankles and our calves and just keep going. So progressive muscle relaxation is really great. A lot of people use box breathing. It's kind of, I would jokingly say, trademarked by the Navy SEALs. But in reality, I mean, my husband personally, he doesn't use it. He would rather do something. It's similar, but it's when you hold your breath, you breathe in for six.

1:16:12you yeah you hold but the big kicker is you need to breathe out longer than you're breathing in

1:16:20Bob:so if you breathe in snakes yeah so yeah can you can you walk walk me through it i'm sitting here trying to do it as you yeah i i actually like i haven't heard i'll listen to huberman you know the huberman pod um he's got some i'm going to send this to you it's good to listen to a lot of breathing techniques for all different situations to relax, to pump yourself up. Like breathing is extremely important. My daughter is a yoga instructor and she does these breathing techniques and she's telling me about them all the time. I'm just like, yeah, what, you know, what is it? Hippie stuff. I don't know.

1:16:54I know. I'm always like, okay, just, just let me put my tinfoil hat on while, while I humor you. And if you're doing this for two weeks, you are going to come back and feel really silly for ever doubting me. But yeah, I can, I'm happy to walk you through something like it. Let me explain it first. So y 'all are not trying to do it and be like, why, why did this work? So what you're going to do is I'm going to, I'm going to do four seconds in six seconds out mainly because, uh, we're, we're working with different people. And so it's kind of the basic, um, number, but what we're attempting to do is control our breathing.

1:17:28So we can visualize a box. So think about what a square looks like and think about a dot at the bottom corner of that box. As you're going to breathe in the four seconds, you're going to get that dot up to the next corner during those four seconds. Then we're going to hold for four seconds and you're going to get the dot to the next corner. then as you breathe out for six seconds you're going to i can see that y 'all are slowly trying to do it yeah i can picture it i've seen the meme yeah so you're going to picture the dot more slowly and more controlled going down to the next corner and then you're going to hold for another four seconds okay yeah like uh let me try to do it here so like you know i'm trying to find the corner of my screen here is, you know, the inhale, the hold, the exhale, right?

1:18:27The hold. Inhale, hold, exhale, hold, but over time. Yep. Yep. So just make sure that your feet are flat and that we're actually breathing from our diaphragm. It's very easy to kind of lift our shoulders, but when we're breathing from our diaphragm, which is right in between our ribcage, it, you can even feel it. It's going to go up and then that's when you're really getting that full breath in. Okay. Are y 'all ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. Okay. So we're going to breathe in for one, two, three, four. Hold one, two, three, four. Out two, three, four, five, six, and hold two three four so i would expect that repetition but what it's supposed to do is activate that parasympathetic nervous system so when we're talking parasympathetic we're talking parachute so bringing down so we're trying to calm ourselves in that moment so it might take a few times a lot of people do it while on the way to the airport if they're dealing with a stressful situation at home if they're feeling a little bit of that burnout and they're feeling like flying is really just kind of becoming a job and not a career or a hobby that they once saw it as.

1:19:46So they'll practice that box breathing, but try to do it at home first, because some people who have their sympathetic nervous system really activated, they might get lightheaded during that. Interesting.

1:19:57Bob:Yeah. Well, yeah. Before a check ride, I mean, that would be a great thing to, you know, sit there in a room and just and do that breathing before you go in and going into all that stress. Yeah. And you know what, Bob, actually on the opposite end of the spectrum, and this is one of the things that I picked up from Huberman. So in aviation, especially on long haul flying, you're in cruise for a very, very long time. There's nothing going on. You're very relaxed, tired even. And then you add the fatigue and maybe the food fatigue and the stress and all the other things. And then the most critical part of the entire trip happens in the last few moments, you know, maybe shooting an ILS approach or an RNAV approach to minimums at some unfamiliar airport with somebody with a barely understandable accent.

1:20:41And so you need to kind of, you know, caffeine has always been my go to. But one of the things is like you can actually use breathing to boost your body as well, like to, you know, breathe in, pause and then like a hard breathe in. Right. And like maximize like a blast of oxygen into your body. Is that talk to talk to us about that? Well, 100 percent. So think about when we we start getting that adrenaline kick. Typically, our breathing will get more shallow and we'll start breathing a bit faster. So it's saying, okay, well, we need to pump ourselves up. So it's going to go out, in, out, in, out, in constantly instead of when we are trying to be at our lowest where we're slowly in and out.

1:21:29So, I mean, just think when you're getting really pumped up or hyped, you're going to start jumping up and down. You're going to increase your heart rate just like a landing, especially a high-risk landing. you're going to be doing the same thing right and so it's really important though because once once everyone lands i mean out here where where i'm sitting not in the cockpit i hear just like a ding okay so we're all kind of holding our breath and then you hear a ding where the seat belt sign is off and we're like okay good okay fine and then we all get up and we go but nobody actually kind of decompressed from from what just happened especially not in the cockpit they're like okay we landed we're just going to taxi back okay cool saying bye to everybody on to the next instead of okay maybe it's not something that you need to emotionally process but fact of the matter is that your anxiety and your hyper hyper vigilance needed to be heightened it had to be in order for you to do it accurately and to make sure that everyone was safe.

1:22:36So not thinking about anxiety is a bad thing. We're thinking of it as a tool. But if we're not decompressing from that heightened anxiety, then we're not going to feel like we're able to move on with our day. Interesting. You know, I have like the perfect segue to another question I wanted to get to here. And I don't know how I'm going to articulate it, but it's the perfect segue in my mind. So thinking about sitting in one seat, looking over at the guy next to me, and the guy next to me is doing box breathing techniques, or we're about to shoot an ILS to minimum somewhere, and the guy is going, like me, like I just try to force feed himself oxygen.

1:23:20And you're thinking, wow, this guy is a psychopath. What's wrong with him? The segue here is we have no choice but to interact with the person sitting next to us locked in a cockpit for long periods of time every day at the airlines. It may be a different person every day, but it's still a person. A lot of our interactions are with a stranger, a familiar stranger. I think that there really lies a responsibility. So, like I said earlier, we have a friend that that committed suicide. And it wasn't obvious that he was going through things to us. But I think it's sometimes that's the case. I think other times it is more obvious to people when somebody is really reaching the end of their tether.

1:24:05And I think that in the aviation business, we have a responsibility to some degree for the person sitting next to us. And I think that it's something because it's so stigmatized. I think that we should be alert to maybe the mental state of the person that's sitting next to us. What are some what are some things that we can look for, you know, throughout the course of getting to know somebody that you're in the cockpit? Right. And then if you feel like there may be something that that that this person is struggling with, what would be a good way to maybe help, you know, through talking? Yeah, looking out for your buddy.

1:24:51Yeah, especially in a field with so much stigma, it's an awkward conversation to have because you never know who's going to react in a negative way or even somebody who says, oh, wow, thank you. That is exactly what I needed. So for the guy doing box breathing, first off, if you're good enough and you're confident enough to do it in the cockpit, you shouldn't be able to see it at all unless you're looking at their diaphragm. So that's one very positive thing about box breathing. But if we notice something, then calling it out and being respectful about it. I think a lot of the time, because aviation is such a male-dominated field, we do thrive on directness.

1:25:39And sometimes being direct doesn't always mean being blunt or harsh. And so remembering that those two things don't always have to exist at the same time. So saying, hey, I noticed that you have been clutching a little bit. Like you've noticed like you've been a bit tense. Usually we can see if shoulders are a bit high, if there's a pretty junior FO or even a pretty junior captain, you know, someone that is just upgraded, then they're probably going to have a little bit of imposter syndrome. So common, so normalized. It is important to normalize that, especially if we are senior to them. I say we as if I've ever landed a plane and I am very transparent that I have it, I just help those that do.

1:26:28So with that being said, if you are a senior, know that there is that power dynamic that is there. And it is your responsibility to use that power with respect. So saying, hey, I noticed that you were maybe a little tense. I want to reassure you that you did a really good job on XYZ. However, I noticed that you stayed tense. And how has this job been treating you? Something like that. If somebody is rambling their words, maybe talking a little bit too much, there's a possibility that, yeah, maybe they are a little bit anxious.

1:27:12Bob:Steve, didn't Nathan Fielder in season two of the rehearsal teach you everything you need to know? Mostly everything I need to know. Mostly. Now, it is interesting. I mean, I don't know if you watched that series. You should if you didn't. It's interesting. It's funny. Kind of the underlying message is a serious conversation about how pilots interact with each other and that interaction potentially being blocked, stunted, so on and so forth. Is it leading to less safe, you know, situations in the cockpit? It's a fascinating conversation, really. I mean, it was satirical, but there was definitely truth mixed into that message as well.

1:28:00Percent. I'll need to check it out.

1:28:02Bob:Yeah. I know we're getting towards the end and you've got to go. I would love to continue this conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Again, we'd love to have you back. I mean, it was a fascinating, great conversation. It was. You know, in closing, you know, if there is a pilot out there listening to it or anybody listening to this out there right now who is feeling off, struggling with something, what do you suggest that they do? If you're feeling off about something, listen to that. Normalize it. Because just because you're a pilot does not mean that you're not human. you that's an expectation that's already been established if you even just seek out a consultation with someone and see if you feel comfortable speaking to them that can just make the world of difference there are more people like me maybe not people that only work with pilots but there are people who have training who know what the faa need yeah yeah they're more than welcome to reach out.

1:29:11A lot of therapists offer free consultations just to talk for a minute, see if you feel comfortable because you're not going to lose your medical for seeking support.

1:29:23Bob:And what's the best way to get a hold of you? Yeah. So my Instagram is at the aviation therapist and my website is the aviation therapist.com. Straightforward. I'll put that in the show notes. So if you want to go to the show notes on your pod or on the YouTube description. It will be there as well. If you want to reach out to Dr. Powell or see what she has online, I think it's important. Honestly, this has been an awesome interview. This is such an important topic. It affects probably the vast majority of our listeners. And I hope you come back. And yeah, look, if I just want to second that it's just so important to take care of yourself.

1:30:11Mental health is just so critical. Like it's it affects everything. It affects your physical health. Even if there's slight changes, you know, nip them in the bud before it turns into something bigger. There's nothing wrong with a tool. Right. Absolutely.

1:30:26Bob:Absolutely. Dr. Powell, many, many thanks for the coming on here short notice. It was a fascinating interview. I absolutely loved it. I can't wait till we talk again. Agreed. All right. Take care, everybody.

1:31:01Altyazı M.K.