An honest conversation about sex and gender | with Tonia Antoniazzi

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0:59Noa Hoffman: Hello and welcome to Coffee House. I'm Noah Hoffman and today I'm really excited to be joined by the Labour MP, Tonya Antoniazzi. Tonya has been an outspoken critic of extreme transgender ideology, even when it was quite unpopular within some left-wing circles and within sections of the PLP to do so. She very bravely spoke up for the rights of women and girls based on biological sex, biological reality, even when some of the pushback from extremists within the transgender lobby was very, very vicious and you could effectively be cancelled for speaking out. Tonya was very much bravely pushing back against that alongside a lot of other feminists, the likes of J.K.

1:46Noa Hoffman: Rowling. And now you've all been very much vindicated within the public discourse, I would say. But there does seem to be now another hurdle in this struggle. And that is the conversion therapy bill that is coming up. And what the bill effectively does is it says parents could be criminalised for questioning whether their child actually is transgender if they are identifying as such. Tonya, could you go through your position on this bill as a Labour MP, as a, you know, outspoken woman on the left? Why, from a left-wing perspective, is this wrong and why do you think this bill should change? Look, when you talk about conversion practices, we know that they are all wrong.

2:34I think what we want to highlight is very much kind of like what is not captured already in legislation, and that needs to be pursued. This bill seeks to do it, and it's a draft bill at this stage. It's under pre-legislative scrutiny. What it seeks to do is find practices that are still going on, that is not covered, but nobody can identify one. So that's an issue. The other thing that concerns me, because as a parent, as a teacher, as I used to be for 20 years, it's kind of like those conversations that you would have as a mum and those conversations you'd have as a form teacher, which most teachers are, have that kind of like pastoral role.

3:16it's that kind of those conversations that if you're not using an affirmative model in the way you are speaking to to the child then you can actually you know come under the scope of this bill now we're at this pre-legislative stage so all of these things are being aired I've seen it firsthand as a teacher where you know okay I left teaching 10 years ago but it was after where we were seeing kind of girls questioning their gender and then kind of like literally over the summer They'd be coming back to school, changing name, you know, short hair. And these were children with adverse childhood experiences, maybe looked after.

3:55And then there'd be other friends that would kind of like jump on the bandwagon because it's sort of a thing. If you can't have those conversations with these young people going through puberty, then we have a problem. And this is how I kind of got into the sex and gender debate. It was kind of like, well, how does that work then? I was representing trans constituents about not getting the right health care as an MP. And, you know, that was an issue. Yet, at the same time, I wasn't able to say, actually, trans women aren't women because biologically they aren't. Now, if you want to be a trans woman, that's absolutely, absolutely fine by me.

4:33It's not a case of trans people don't exist. but what we've seen resulting from that is and we saw it unfold in Scotland where we had a prisoner change their identity their gender and then was put in a women's prison and it was like but that's you can see what they've done they've used trans people for their own gain to be near women and that's not saying that all trans people do that or are sexual predators absolutely not at all but we have to be able to have that conversation and that back in the day you know when Rosie Duffield was very outspoken and I was doing a lot of questioning and a lot of policy work to try and flesh this out and working with sex matters working with NBN that was a stage when we were kind of like going well why can't we say a woman is a biological woman and a trans woman is is a man or a trans woman is a trans woman and find a way through this and that's what shocked me most about being an MP because obviously that wasn't my background.

5:34I don't have a political background. I like to think I bring a common sense approach to and also a strength as a woman to want to look after and prioritise women and girls.

5:46Noa Hoffman: So we have had this Supreme Court ruling. It's already banned very and it's a great thing that it's gay and lesbian conversion therapy is bad it's a horrific um and immoral practice and as you said no one can point to this in-between spot of so-called trans conversion therapy given all of that why is this built even a debate and who is pushing it well it was a manifesto commitment so um as it is a manifesto commitment it is something that i know bridget phillipson has been you know leading on it and she has been mostly a sensible voice in this space and being able to find how do we achieve a manifesto commitment and how do we work it out, which is why it is a draft bill, which is why it is where it is.

6:33Now, obviously, I have my concerns and I've expressed my concerns quite openly and other MPs are as well. And so we need the right people to be in front of that committee and to be able to flesh out why it's not okay. We really want to hear from detransitioners. It's really important that we hear about the journey that they've been on and the time that they needed to realise that they were potentially making a mistake. And it's not just something that you can pull back on. And again, the women and girls that choose to transition or are led into transitioning, they are the ones that can't pull back because the testosterone has a bigger impact on their lives when you remove your breasts very difficult to get them put back on or any kind of you know your fertility is damaged and you see that men that become trans women can actually get back to that place if they've made a mistake easier you only have to see Keira Bell to understand that you know it's had a direct impact on her voice her appearance her hair growth and it's just and again that makes me upset because we should take these gender questioning young people seriously and make sure they get the right mental health support and support into making that decision alongside their parents but as you said so this is such a serious issue you just gave

8:04Noa Hoffman: the example of Kirabel, often these are medical procedures that you can't reverse. It can have a huge impact on mental health, given it is so serious. And given that Andy Burnham is comfortable to reset the conversation for instance on Brexit, on a whole range of policies, Burnham wants, he wants to do things very differently from Keir Starmer. Surely this is an issue worth spending political capital on to say, I know it was in the manifesto, but clearly that was perhaps a misguided commitment. You know, we support if a man wants to wear a dress, that's fine. If they want to be, have a different name, that's fine.

8:38Noa Hoffman: But we've had the Supreme Court ruling, clearly, this is not a big issue. Let's focus our attention elsewhere. Can't he just do that? I think that's why it is a draft bill. And that is why it is in pre-legislative now. And that is what is key, that the evidence is seen and it is actually thrown out. That's my opinion. So you would like to see the bill thrown out? Yes, absolutely. I don't see why we should be spending precious government time discussing something that doesn't really need addressing. Yes. This committee is hearing a wide range of voices and hopefully it will come to that conclusion.

9:18Noa Hoffman: How reflective is your position within the PLP? Are you a lone voice or how much support do you have pushing back against this? Look, I mean, there are a lot of us in the PLP, a lot of new Scottish MPs who saw how the gender recognition bill really, you know, absolutely caused such division in Scotland. They've lived through that as prominent women politicians and they just know that it's just damaging. It's damaging to the brand, you know, that the party, it's damaging to politics. we don't want things to become identity politics we have to like talk about the rights of women and girls the rights of trans people the gay and lesbian and bisexual community and have that conversation if parliamentarians cannot have an open and honest conversation about issues such as sex and gender then where are we?

10:16Noa Hoffman: Are the voices who are in favour of this bill unamended sort of as it stands using the sort of bullying tactics that we saw in the peak of transgender extremism or are they having this debate with you respectfully? I think the debate is being, it's not actually being had one-to-one. It's being had perhaps in silos, which is not helpful. Obviously it's not on the floor of the house, so we can't have those conversations on the floor of the House. And obviously, the committee is dealing with it, and they have various views on the committee. But I think when you see how legislation cannot work, and it cannot kind of like uphold the Supreme Court judgment, and it cannot, you know, uphold the fact that gender critical beliefs are valid, then I don't see how it can go through.

11:10Noa Hoffman: And where would you say the Labour Party is at the moment in terms of having a settled position on this whole debate? Do you think there's still more argument to come or is the PLP united in the idea that a woman is a woman based on their biology? Look, I think there are different voices in the PLP, but the government, you know, Bridget Phillipson has said it, Steph Peacock said it last week around sport. The law is the law. We respect the law. The NHS guidance in England has gone out on single sex spaces. That has been, you know, I know that the ministers working on that have done a really good job to get that through.

11:51So that guidance is there. And then you get people like the BMA saying, oh, we don't accept this. Well, it's the law. So you kind of have to and you have to make it work so that everybody in a hospital setting or in any other medical setting is safe and has their rights respected.

12:12Noa Hoffman: I was wondering, in case our viewers don't know, you are quite an accomplished rugby player. I was wondering whether your experience of women's sports played a part in making you so passionate about this topic and taking on this fight. Well, I think the sport debate came up after, not long into being a parliamentarian. And I love sport. I think young women and girls should be playing sport. I'm playing it for as long as you like, as long as you can. I'm 55 now. My knees are struggling. But it is really important that, well, I would never play rugby, full contact rugby with a biological male. I just wouldn't do it.

12:56And we had seen that happen in Wales. And I was having lots of conversations with the RFU, the WRU to discuss how their policy should fit. And it is imperative that women's sport is women's sport. It's single sex women's sport. If you want to be inclusive, and I'm not saying that, I heard the way people say trans women are banned from sport. No, please, no, you are not. Because I would have absolutely no problem, and in fact, I still do, play mixed non-contact rugby, you know, for the Commons and Lords rugby team. that's still really really important that you are active and you are participating if that happens to be an open category of sport then that's great or if it happens to be a non-contact sport everybody should be as active as they can

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14:23Noa Hoffman: Profits calculated after fees and costs, eligibility and offer price may vary.

14:30Noa Hoffman: I want to move on briefly to the new pornography laws that have been introduced because they have sparked some debates. It's definitely not been a mainstream discourse. I guess it's sometimes an awkward conversation to talk about. But we've had these new changes and it is now a criminal offence in England and Wales to possess or publish pornographic images that explicitly and realistically depict sexual activity with someone who appears or is pretending to be under 16, between penetrative sex, between certain relatives or pretending to be related, and strangulation or suffocation. Now, the porn industry, I would argue, has been devastating in terms of its impact on women and girls and what it's doing to men, let's be honest, in terms of how they view sex, how they view relationships.

15:28Noa Hoffman: It's been horrific. So it's very clear to see that something needed to be done. and what pornography companies were allowed to get away with as well was quite horrifying. There's been some backlash to, in particular, one issue, which is this issue of strangulation or suffocation. Now, this is quite technical, so I'll have to try and explain it to you and the listeners. But basically, sex workers came out and said that depictions of strangulation or suffocation are not clearly defined and could effectively criminalise depicting oral sex, which is legal, obviously, in real life. And Alex Davies Jones, the victim's minister, I know she cares very, very deeply about violence against women and girls.

16:18Noa Hoffman: She really, really does. She's very genuine and has cared about this for a long time. But she did say that it will be up to a court to determine where the line is. There's been some backlash to that because should it be up to a court or should it not be up to MPs and the legislation to clearly define what is and isn't illegal when it comes to this topic? Well, she's the minister. She delivered the news and the changes. I think that if that's the current stance of the government, then that is the current stance of the government. I think there could be a little bit. No, I don't think, but there is more work that needs to be done in this space.

16:56I mean, I've signed amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill, you know, against pimping websites and looking at pornography as well, because this needed to happen. If there is underage kind of girls being exploited online in any form of pornography, then that is wrong. Strangulation. Yeah. OK. If there's going to be that kind of like debate around what is strangulation? is it oral sex, is it this, then maybe clarification can be sought around that within legislation. That's a conversation I can pick up with Alex Davis-Jones, who's a very good friend and colleague. But I think that, you know, I've been chair of the all-party parliamentary group on commercial sexual exploitation.

17:40I've also spoken on a BBC documentary about only fans managers. Legislation has not kept up and is not agile enough to keep up with the online industry because it always seems to be growing so quickly it's one head of the step ahead of the game every single time so we've been flagging we've had a recent report on webcamming and the dangers of that and how it kind of like keeps women and trapped in into kind of like coercive control and and abusive relationships and i think again this is something we have to talk about because it's it's not it's gone from the days when i'd be down the station and be meeting up and supporting women in prostitution who maybe didn't have a tooth in the head and were looking for their next heroin fix it's moved on from that now this is any woman and girl is a potential victim if they need a bit of money if they they're a single mum they see something like only fans as being empowering and being able to boost their their kind of like income then that's what we've got to be worried about because that's when they fall into a trap of having a manager being exploited and then they end up doing what we've seen and the evidence we've taken is that they'll end up doing sex acts that are non-consensual and that they're being bullied and harassed into doing.

19:06Noa Hoffman: But we do have some influences the likes of Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips who come out very very strongly and very forthrightly to say I love my job I love having trying to have sex with a thousand men in one day it empowers me I'm a tough independent woman and if I want to have sex with a thousand men in a day I can do so these women are making a lot of money on OnlyFans and they say they're doing it in the name of feminism how do we even go about telling you know vulnerable and impressionable girls that this is not something they want to follow it's hard it's a hard but it's also a hard message coming from a 55 year old woman like myself yeah but people forget you know we've been young and vulnerable yeah and we see but always look to as a politician and as a as a parent i've always looked to the most vulnerable women and girls in society they may be empowering and be seen, but it's all about stereotypes.

20:12It's about stereotypes of what a woman should do. You know, you see the stuff about trad wives now, you know, it's all of this stereotyping. What you need to do as a young woman growing up is find the best version of you. I mean, I've got short hair because actually I look really bad with long hair. it's you know and it's it's it's a choice and but people might want to paint me as a kind of like old-fashioned bigoted kind of lesbian which I am not people put you into boxes where you just want to be the best version of yourself and to be empowering to young women is to say you know take every opportunity that you have in life try something you know I'm not saying try being bonnie blue no i'm not saying that but find your way to be successful healthy and live your best life now that's a choice that bonnie blue has made for herself but that's not one that is available to everybody and not one that i would encourage people to go into because that's not what being a woman is is all about do you think it degrades womanhood and it degrades so much of what

21:27Noa Hoffman: feminist thought for. But it degrades our sexuality and our sex is why we are different, it's why we are different to men. Our sex is really important. The life experiences that we have from puberty to periods to menopause, which I'm very familiar with, life as a woman is a journey and it's not an easy journey. And I think that putting yourself out there to be public, to be fodder basically for the pornography industry is not empowering. It's not the best thing that you can do. But they're making a lot of money out of it. But it's the men that are also sleeping with these women. Yeah, and paying subscriptions.

22:08Paying subscriptions, but also paying for the sex to be one of the thousand that she's going to sleep with in 24 hours or whatever it was. That's somebody's son. That's somebody's brother. That's somebody's... What does that say about them? I mean, I'm, you know, I'm kind of like really supportive of the Nordic model where actually we should be looking at the people buying the sex that are actually the problem, that are feeding this industry. Yeah. And that is 100 % what we are seeing, that it's the men using these women and getting caught up in these acts that are feeding the industry. And that's a real concern of mine.

22:43Noa Hoffman: Has your APPG or has the Women in Equality Select Committee, as far as you're aware, ever sort of hauled in OnlyFans to answer some of these difficult questions? Well, they've refused to come in front of the APPG. And also as part of the OnlyFans managers piece that we did with the BBC, they refused to meet me, but they did agree to meet Eleanor Lyons. So she's the anti-slavery commissioner. Okay. So I don't know if that meeting has happened, but also I know that they are very keen to meet ministers, which I believe is happening. And, you know, I'm hoping that our ministers in DCMS and in the MOJ will hold them to account.

23:30because if it's behind a paywall, what happens to that material afterwards? That is something that could ruin your career, ruin your life. And that material being spread around and shared widely, that is kind of like the impact on starting off on OnlyFans, thinking that it's going to be empowering. The impact is that never goes away. That material, you do not own it. You know, the person that buys that owns it and could absolutely ruin your future career. So if you are a young woman, You think about the impact that's going to have on you, your relationships, your future relationships and on your children, because the Internet is there to stay.

24:09Noa Hoffman: And finally, I think it's very important to ask you for your reflections on the sentencing of Russell Brand. I mean, people are describing it as Britain's new Me Too movement. What are your reflections on the past week? Well, particularly Russell Brand's behaviour was absolutely disgusting. And I remember being a lot younger and him, you know, being on the airwaves and being on the TV and you think, oh, you know. Seedy. Really, really, really seedy. But never held to account that kind of like continuation of bad behaviour in plain sight, as we know. I think the women, the victims, coming out and speaking out and being brave enough to go to court are just the most wonderful, strong women.

25:01I mean, I haven't met them, but I just think they're incredible. And this should carry on. We should do this and we should believe women. And I think, call it a Me Too movement, call it, you know, it's not OK.

25:16Noa Hoffman: brand was very good at constantly reinventing himself in order to find new audiences to appeal to when he became rejected by others and and towards the end of his career he found a home very much in this bizarre podcast extreme right-wing uh faction there was a bit of sort of weird evangelical Christian something going on there. But before he found a home there, he was embraced by some on the left, even after he'd made comments that were clearly a big, glaring red flag. Obviously, he was interviewed by Ed Miliband and Lucy Powell's been interviewed about that. Do you think that elements of the left turned a blind eye to him because he was speaking their language on other topics at all?

26:11Yeah, potentially. Look, I feel that, you know, when people have had longer political careers and they see somebody as being a bit of a character and yet maybe hadn't done their homework on the individual in question, then I think it's the right thing to say, that was a mistake. You know, that was a mistake. I regret it deeply. And, you know, let's move the conversation on because those mistakes have been made. they're there the evidence is there the podcasts are there and learn from them learn from it

26:40Noa Hoffman: he targeted every side for sure yeah I mean learn from it you know we've seen it historically with Jimmy Savile we've just got to do better and not make all same mistakes again it doesn't matter what political party you were in you've just got to move on Tonya it's been an absolute pleasure to have this very wide-ranging and important conversation with you thank you so much for joining Coffeehouse and thank you all for watching and tuning in. Thank you, Noah.

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