Are you a people pleaser?

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1:16They're simple, intentional practices, tools you can carry with you long after you leave. Because wellness doesn't live in one place. It lives in how you show up again and again. Miraval Resorts, wellness for real life. Learn more at miravalresorts.com. Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a psychologist and this is Complex, the podcast that helps you navigate your way through all the information that's out there about our mental health. Because you know as well as I do that there's a lot of it. In this episode I'm exploring people pleasing. I'm hearing the words people pleasing a lot in my practice.

2:03It seems to be a term that many people identify with. In fact social media videos with the hashtag people pleaser regularly get millions of views. And while it sounds innocent enough, actually people pleasing can get in the way of the things you want and keep you in places that you don't want to be. But we all people please to some extent, don't we? So when does it become a negative thing? And if it's not good for you, what can you do about it? in complex i want to enable you to understand your own mental health and your state of mind to give you information and evidence so you can work out when to worry and most importantly when not to worry and i'll be bringing in leading mental health experts to help me to explore these topics.

3:02So let me be your guide through the gravel of misinformation to the soft white sands of understanding.

3:15For people pleasing and the different ways it shows itself, my guest today is psychiatrist Dr. Sarah Vora. Hi Sarah. Hi. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your expertise. so I'm a consultant psychiatrist I've been a consultant psychiatrist for the last 15 years and for the last 12 years I've specialized in child and adolescent psychiatry are you seeing people pleasing in your work what's your experience I would say daily I see some form of people pleasing being problematic in clinic and I think to an extent I think social media has a lot to answer for in that regard because people pleasing is not necessarily something limited to a young person's immediate community but also their online world as well.

4:02Okay so let's dive in. Great.

4:09Now for everyone listening I'm so glad you're here for this conversation whether you think you're a people pleaser or you're just interested in learning more about the psychology around it. I've got a story about people pleasing that has come in from a listener. We're going to call her Lila. That's not her real name. And I'd like you, Sarah, to tell me what you think about it. Okay. So she says, I've just come back from a hen party weekend. I don't have a lot of spare cash and I don't like big groups. But the bride is a good friend. And so, of course, I went. But now I'm back. I'm feeling really upset.

4:49I spent way over my budget. One night everyone went out for cocktails and even though I hate loud bars and I don't drink much and I was very happy to stay in the hotel by myself, my friend made me go. And to cap it all off, at the end of the weekend, everyone signed up for another get-together after the wedding. I felt I had to agree to it because I didn't want to offend her why do I always end up in situations like this and how can I stop it wow and I think so many people can probably relate to being in similar situations like that it's a classic case of people pleasing you know putting her friends desires and needs at the expense of her own mental well-being and at the end she's left feeling kind of flat and disappointing I think that's one of the really difficult things because with any big event like this the thing that stays with you is the feeling you had while you were there then that's a real shame absolutely and I just think there's something about not feeling confident to communicate what your own needs are because often the need to say yes and particularly in this case the need to say yes is to avoid appearing difficult because if the majority of the hen party can go then I'm going to be the odd one out or I may be perceived as being a party pooper because everyone's going out and I just want to stay in my hotel room It makes me think that there's almost this kind of zero-sum quality about it.

6:19One person's needs get met at the expense of somebody else's. It can't be that both our needs get met in some way. We can't meet in some middle ground, but we have to, you know, exchange our own well-being for the benefit of another person. And I know in this example, there's a hen party and there are ways in which perhaps we extend ourselves a little bit more. But what Lila says is, I always end up in situations like this. So this maybe tells us something much more about a general way that she engages with the world and with her relationships. Yeah, absolutely. Let's dive into the complexity.

6:54So, Sarah, what does people pleasing mean to you? so from my perspective people pleasing is putting the needs or desires of someone else before your own and often that can be at the expense of your own mental well-being and I think there can be a connotation that all people pleasing is bad and that's not the case actually some people pleasing can be really helpful you know it indicates that you're very cooperative perhaps you're in a situation where you don't necessarily need to communicate what your own need is because it doesn't matter so for instance imagine three friends and they are caught up on what to have for a takeaway okay and you've got two friends who have very strong views you've got one who wants a chinese takeaway that's me someone who wants an italian takeaway that's actually that's myself and then you've got a third person who really doesn't mind either way but actually what they're seeing play out in front of them is two friends disagreeing over fundamentally what to have for dinner so to try and people please and to intervene rather than put in their two pence worth they say actually why don't we get a Chinese takeaway and I'll nip out to the corner shop and get an Italian ice cream and that way no one's needs are not being met they've reduced the conflict in that situation and everyone's happy I can see I feel like I might be a people-pleasing absolutist because in there and I suppose it's worth saying that people-pleasing isn't a diagnosis It's not something that you can go and be diagnosed with.

8:23But even in that example, I'm thinking, why does it matter to you so much that everyone is happy? Why can't we have just a little bit of friction? What is so intolerable about it? So I think my tendency is to be like, let's get in under there. Yes, we'll have a lovely Chinese meal and some delicious ice cream afterwards, but actually what's going on with you? But maybe we should just kind of get into some characteristics and find out maybe what's potentially going on for this person. Yeah. Yeah. So what would you say are the top four or five key indicators that someone might have a tendency to people pleasing?

8:58I think the first thing is thinking, are you consistently saying yes, when really you mean no? So again, that idea that you're saying yes to others around you and neglecting your own needs and desires in the process. So a little bit of what Lila was doing. Yeah. I think maybe spreading yourself too thinly. So perhaps you're juggling lots of different plates and you're taking on board everyone's opinion and views, but not listening to your own. So you're double booked on all of your appointments. You're saying yes to work that you can't do and you're exhausted maybe. be i think thinking about how you're left feeling in that situation because it may be that even if you are saying yes to all of these requests that are made of you you may still on the surface appear that you're managing it so people are going to keep coming back to you and making the request to you because on the surface you're calm you're collected and underneath may be a completely different story so after a situation where you are people pleasing are you left feeling wrung out are you left feeling anxious I think that's really important because that's your little signal is emotions are a signal of something that's happening internally for you and so there will be a real material difference between I'm doing something nice for someone and that makes me feel good and I'm doing something nice for someone and I feel compromised I feel tired I feel exhausted or whatever it might be at the other end.

10:31And I would add in a preoccupation with being liked or the flip side of that, like a real, and I would call it a terror of being disliked. Can't bear being disliked. Hate the idea that anyone is upset with me. Was I mean to the barista or did they gave me a funny look? And overanalyzing. Overanalyzing. And yes, I think we should be pro-social, decent human beings, but feeling as though you can't let go of the possibility that the person who sat next to you on the bus felt displeased with you for some unknown reason. And I think people listening might think, oh my goodness, I can relate to quite a few of those.

11:09But I think the key is if you're consistently meeting those characteristics. And it takes me back to Lila's story. And she had so many of those characteristics. There's a real sense that she wasn't just being pro-social. Actually, yes, she was kind of falling into this world of people pleasing in a way that was detrimental to her. Yeah. And the other thing it makes me wonder is around someone's sense of identity in terms of their self-identity. Because I think often saying yes to things, overstretching, is because fundamentally we don't know what we need or what we want. But I think the identity piece is really interesting because our tendencies, you know, whatever our psychological tendencies might be, they're an aspect of those which are inborn constitutional who we are.

11:57But there's an aspect of that which is about our upbringing and our social environment. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm going to bring in a personal example. So I grew up in a Middle Eastern household. And actually, what would happen on a weekend is my parents would invite their friends around. and as the children we were there on hand to be serving teas, coffees, food and essentially all the guests would always remark aren't they helpful, aren't they good children Good children, did you internalise that? Did you struggle with people pleasing as a consequence do you think? Which is interesting, I didn't So interestingly now, I wouldn't say I am a people pleaser but that early childhood experience I suppose made me realise what I didn't want to be, what I didn't want to continue through to my adulthood.

12:42And that makes me think about this YouGov poll that was published in 2022 from the US. And of all the people surveyed, about half of them self-identified as people pleasers. But then there was this kind of further differentiation where, you know, a good proportion of the women said that their people pleasing was not helpful for them. Whereas almost all the men said actually people pleasing was a benefit for them in some way. and so there are questions in there about actually what do these two different sexes mean when they say people pleasing you know do women feel it more of a social burden and an expectation and therefore it's something that they have to comply with against their will yeah if I think about examples in clinical practice I would say the majority of people pleasing difficulties that come through my door the vast majority are female and what does that look like When you're saying problems with people pleasing, how is that manifesting?

13:41Often what will happen is they have all these rules that they have to follow in order to meet the needs of key figures in their life. And it doesn't have to be just people that they grow up with. It can be in the school environment or the college environment, perhaps in their peer group. They're constantly holding in mind all the views of those around them over their own. And actually that's exhausting because that's dynamic. What would that person want me to say in this situation? But that person would want something very different. And you're constantly getting pulled in different directions and that tension can result in mental health distress.

14:21So what are we looking for in our childhoods that might bring about this people pleasing tendency? Because I'm thinking like with Lila, she didn't become a people pleaser overnight, did she? Yeah. If we think about when we are growing up and actually the sorts of households that we grow up in and perhaps even before we're able to speak, you know, we communicate our needs in other ways, but we're constantly monitoring what's going on around us. Yes. And that might be looking at whether someone is pleased with us, whether they're smiling about what we're doing or whether they're kind of frowning and scowling.

14:58I guess we would call it conditioning. Yeah. It does start really early, doesn't it? absolutely and if we're getting that validation so perhaps we are starting to walk for the first time we're getting smiles and cheers and claps and actually we want to do more of that so we can get more smiles and claps because that makes us feel good but then that may then creep into other areas yes um where we don't develop a sense of self or don't develop a sense of what we need because we're constantly seeking out validation. And that does make me consider some of the kind of darker places that people pleasing can come from.

15:37This pattern of people pleasing emerging out of real fear and real tension about how a parent will react or unpredictability. I think I see that quite a lot, that there's for some reason the parent is unpredictable whether it's about alcohol use or some sort of mental health condition or having a very depressed parent I think or caregiver you know the child assumes that the reason that the parent is sad is because they're displeased or disappointed and so all of the child's efforts go into being as pleasing as possible and bringing home the grades and cooking the meals and taking care of the younger siblings or whatever it might be becomes a way of trying to kind of gee up and gather up the parent and I mean there's something obviously deeply sad about that but that the child then becomes burdened with the needs and the expectation of the parent and then that kind of generalizes out into the rest of the world all of my key relationships I manage in this way yeah

16:49all right i feel like i need to bring my lasso in and start herding things together i want to think about a scale you know this kind of mild moderate and severe if we were putting people pleasing on a scale what would we be looking out for what would we be seeing so if we start at the low end the mild end of the scale what might that look like i think that might just be being agreeable, but actually being agreeable such that it's not impacting our own mental well-being. So basically the little things, we might just call it polite society, being pro-social so that we all live in a basically nice place where we know that people are going to be basically kind to us.

17:36Yeah. Okay, so we move up the scale. Where would a kind of moderate people pleasing, what would that look like so i would say that it's constantly asking someone else what they want so before you've even registered what you want out of a situation immediately looking to someone else and asking what do you want where would you like to eat what's important to you it's almost neglecting our own needs and desires i think that at the extreme it can leave you really left at sea like not knowing what you want at all yeah I don't I don't even know what I like yeah I don't know what books I like to read I don't even know if this is the kind of music I like because I've always just gone along with what was popular or what I thought my my friend or my boyfriend or whatever would like me to listen to and it can really be unsettling because everyone else around you knows who they are and you're kind of what you know you feel a bit like a baby walking around not knowing what you want or who you are.

18:39I think the idea of being a chameleon. Yes. And actually, if you think about all the situations where you're constantly have to think or to change how you come across or the things that you like, or even the way you speak, just to fit in to placate other people, it's exhausting. And you do lose all sense of self. Okay, thank you. That's really helpful. So we've gone from mild to extreme. When, though, does it tip over into something really serious, maybe harmful and dangerous? So we've spoken about meeting the needs and desires of another individual. But actually, we haven't spoken about whether or not the needs and desires of that other individual are firstly realistic, but also are they safe?

19:23Yes. Because a lot of people will find themselves in relationships where they're meeting the needs of another individual to avoid that individual lashing out, whether that's verbally, whether that's physically. And so if we think about people pleasing, you're meeting perhaps unrealistic expectations of an abuser. And that is to essentially buy your safety in a relationship. yes and we need to have that experience of saying no and knowing what no feels like and knowing that we can say it and knowing that the environment responds when we say it and I think when people have grown up in these very very controlling hierarchical demanding environments it can absolutely leave them very vulnerable to falling into things going along with things it makes me think of consent actually yeah if an individual is in a sexual relationship with another individual and people pleasing might manifest as them just having sex and they actually do not want to have sex actually are they consenting yes they're pleasing their partner but at what expense so I think you know that is the tipping point where people pleasing can actually have a very detrimental effect on an individual thank you Sarah I think that's really helpful and gives some real clarity.

20:48If you're listening and you're worried that people-pleasing is enabling abuse or harm, I'd really encourage you to get some expert help, either through your GP or perhaps through a specialist helpline. You can find some of those on the BBC Action Line page. I'll share the details of that later on in the episode. But if you're someone whose people-pleasing behaviour is causing you issues in your everyday life but hasn't taken over your life then there are some things that you can do so i think awareness is half the battle always so actually if you're in a place where you recognize a lot of what we've discussed you're halfway there yeah and then i suppose it's getting into the powerful position of doing something about it and a task that i get a lot of people i see to complete is thinking about what's important to them personally socially and from a working perspective as a kind of written exercise as a written exercise so for instance if we go back to lila i'm just going to make an assumption that perhaps she was saving money for a deposit for a house because we all are yeah so if a request is made of lila so in this situation come and spend a second expensive trip with this group of people yes so socially it might be important for lila to spend time with her friends but because she's very clear on what her personal goals are it's important for me in the future that I'm able to buy this house yeah it then feeds into this idea of compromise that there's no shame in being able to communicate to someone I'd love to come to your hen do and I will come to most aspects but I'm perhaps going to knock this night out on the head because I know I'm going to spend a lot of money that simply don't have at the moment because personally it's important that we save for this house yeah And I kind of want to say that friends who love you will be okay with that.

22:40Yeah, absolutely. And that if your friend turns around and says that's really unacceptable, then you should tune into another episode about frenemies. Absolutely. But I think doing something like that for Lila might feel too big. Yes. I think we need for Lila and other people like Lila to start really small. Yes. Because you know when you're deciding what to eat and people are just like, I don't mind. what do you want to eat whatever it's like no that's not true actually tell me what you want to eat yeah and you can use that as a practice so if you're sitting down with your partner you know and your partner knows you have a tendency to people please you say listen i'm trying to practice not being a people pleaser so every friday night when we have dinner please just help me hold the line and decide what i want to eat yeah and so it gets to friday night and your partner says what do you want to eat and you say i don't mind and your partner says no and you have to decide yeah and and I suppose two points about that is starting small is really helpful and building the practice and building the familiarity and the more we do something the easier it becomes and the less stressful it becomes absolutely it holds you accountable but it's also validating in that what you have to say matters to me as well and I think it is absolutely about starting small because actually the more you build evidence that actually it wasn't that scary communicating my need?

24:03And the feared thing didn't actually happen. The more confident you will be to be able to tackle those bigger issues. Absolutely. Awareness, clarity, decisions, confidence. Communicate.

24:21I think that's been really clarifying. And what I think really stands out for me is how people pleasing might actually just be a euphemism for a fear of conflict. And if we were better at dealing with, you know, small conflicts and disagreements instead of just overriding and smoothing them out. So for example, as a Kimberley with two E's in her name, I see people just say, oh no, that's fine, when people misspell or mispronounce their names. And so to just gently correct people and say actually it's pronounced like this or actually it's spelled like this just so that you're getting into that habit of you know dealing with this mild friction yeah but also standing up for yourself that might be an easy way in for for some people absolutely

25:17thank you sarah and to everyone listening i hope you found this episode helpful and illuminating I do want Complex to be your trusted space, a place where you can use the evidence-based information that you hear on the show to understand how to look after yourself better. And so let me know what you'd like me to talk about in future episodes and why. Our email address is complex at bbc.co.uk. We might use what you tell us in the show, but we'll make sure to do it anonymously. Please note that I can't answer you personally. So if you have a concern about a medical or mental health issue, then I'd strongly urge you to seek expert support.

26:01If you want details of help and support with some of the issues raised in the podcast, they're available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line, and you can find the link in the show notes on BBC Sounds. Now, next episode, I'm going to be exploring OCD, and in particular, intrusive thoughts. Now you might have heard people saying something like, oh I'm so OCD when they've organized their spice rack or tidied their room. But what's the difference between being super tidy and organized and OCD? My expert guest will also be bringing her own lived experience of OCD to our discussion. And I want to let you know that we're also looking for stories for some upcoming episodes.

26:45So if you've got a question or experience around burnout, or you want to share your thoughts on gratitude, please email us. And if we use your story, we'll make sure we do so anonymously. As you can hear, I am on a mission. I want to break down some of the myths around mental health to help us understand the difference between an easy label and an actual condition. And I want you to be part of the conversation. So please make sure to subscribe to Complex on BBC Sounds and to turn on your push notifications so you don't miss out on a single episode. And that's it. My thanks again to my guest psychiatrist, Dr.

27:27Sarah Vora and the lovely production team at Loftus Media. Producer, Kirsten Lass. Assistant producer, Katie Chanda-Clark. Researcher, Grace Revel. technical producer Ruben Huxtable, digital editor Richard Berry, science editor Rami Zabar, sound engineer Ruth Rainey, and at BBC Sounds, Assistant Commissioner Izzy Lee Poulton and Commissioning Editor Rhian Roberts. I'm Kimberley Wilson. Thanks for listening. Take care and go gently.

28:03Hello, I'm Emma Barnett. For most of my career, I've been on live radio and I love it. But I've always wondered, what if we'd had more time? How much deeper does the story go? I remember having this very sharp thought that what you do right now, this is it. This defines your life. I'm ready to talk and ready to listen. I'm insulted by how little the medical community is ever bothered with this. Ready to talk with me, Emma Barnard, is my new podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. If modern life feels a little loud, you're not alone. At Miraval Resorts, mindfulness has never been about perfection or performance.

28:47For more than 30 years, it's been about presence and about slowing down enough to listen. At Miraval Berkshires in Lenox, Massachusetts, each season brings its own rhythm. Rolling green hills, quiet forests, and a sense of stillness that feels like a sanctuary. Here, well-being takes many forms. Meditation, yoga, hiking, equine experiences, and time set aside simply to be present. These aren't just experiences for the moment. They're simple, intentional practices, tools you can carry with you long after you leave. Because wellness doesn't live in one place. It lives in how you show up again and again.

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