Are you a perfectionist?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Kimberley Wilson:Whole Foods Market, make your summer sizzle. Is the American dream still possible? I'm Asma Khaled, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. One of the most successful exports the United States has ever sold the world is the American dream, that tantalizing promise of a better, freer, richer life. But is it still attainable? I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well. For more, listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:04Kimberley Wilson:Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a psychologist and this is Complex. Complex is my new podcast and I hope it will help you navigate your way through all the information and misinformation that's out there about our mental health. so you can feel reassured and live a calmer, healthier life. In this episode, I'm exploring perfectionism. Perfectionism is a great topic to start this show with because we tend to treat it like a bit of a badge of honour, right? So you're in a job interview and you're asked what your flaw is and you might say, well, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. But actually, the more I've come to understand it, the more of an issue I have with it.

1:51Kimberley Wilson:because perfectionism does not do what it says on the tin. Does it make you better at work? Not really. Does it make you happier in your life? The research says no. So really, I want to take perfectionism to one side and give it a very stern talking to.

2:10Kimberley Wilson:That's what I want to do with this podcast, to put different conditions under the spotlight so we can see them clearly for what they are. I hope Complex is going to help you to understand your own mental health better and your state of mind so you can work out when to worry but most importantly when not to worry. I'll be hearing stories from listeners about how mental health plays out in their lives and I'll be inviting expert guests to join me to unpick some of the issues that can affect us all. That means there will be psychologists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists in your corner and together we'll pass on some valuable tips to help you manage yourself with more kindness and compassion.

2:54Kimberley Wilson:So let me be your guide through the weeds of misinformation to the blooming rose garden of understanding.

3:05Kimberley Wilson:In the studio today, I've invited Dr Sula Wingassen to help me explore perfectionism and what it does for us and what it does to us. Hello Sula. Hi, thanks for having me. Can you, before we start, just introduce yourself to the listeners, tell me a bit about yourself and your work. Hi, yes, so I'm a health psychologist and psychotherapist, so I work with people who are experiencing chronic stress, burnout and recovering from trauma. I also work a lot with people with chronic illnesses or medically unexplained symptoms. Do you find that perfectionism shows up in your work? Absolutely. You know, one of the things we see in research and the reason that I see it a lot in my clinical practice is that perfectionism has a big impact on our physical health as well as our stress levels.

3:56So it plays a big role in the people that I see.

3:59Kimberley Wilson:Okay. Well, I'm sure we'll hear a lot about that in the rest of the episode. What about in your own life? For sure. I'll give you a good example.

4:10If I come for a podcast like this, I like to get up to date on the research. I know perfectionism quite well from research that I've done from my academic background and from working clinically. And yet I find myself with like 5 ,000 tabs open looking at the latest research and I can't just skim read it. I have to, you know, input it into various file structures and then get into depth in the mechanisms of certain findings and what have you. So essentially for me, my perfectionism manifests as kind of really getting as much information as possible to a standard that really isn't necessary, right?

4:50Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so it sounds like you are the perfect person, both professionally and personally, for us to be talking about perfectionism with.

5:00Kimberley Wilson:Now, for everyone listening, you might experience perfectionism in your own life. It could be in how you push yourself to do more than your best at college or work, a lot like Sula. Or maybe you're constantly striving to have the perfect look or physique. One listener has passed her story on to us. I'm going to call her Jeannie so we can keep her identity private. I'll read her story out because I think it neatly sums up how we might live with perfectionism. And Sula, I'd like to know what you think. so genie says i'm starting to be consistently late handing in my work at my job because i find myself reading it over and over and reworking it until it's perfect but it never feels perfect so i'm always disappointed in myself do i need to start caring less what's your initial response to that?

6:02I mean, just even in that query, that's perfectionism, you know, on the spot, isn't it? And I think one of the difficulties with perfectionism, we see it as a pursuit of perfect, but really it's not. It's a pursuit of our unrelenting standards, which are intangible. You know, we don't know when we've gotten there. So there isn't an objective measure of perfect. And often it goes with this heuristic level of, I'll know when it's perfect, quote unquote, or I know when it's to my own standard when I feel like I've achieved it. But the inherent nature of it is that it's so high and unrelenting. We never feel like we get there.

6:41Kimberley Wilson:That's really interesting that we tell ourselves that it is an objective point that we can reach. But actually, it's a much more amorphous feeling that we hope to, that will kind of fall upon us at some point and that we'll get into. Absolutely. And I think that's perpetuated by moments where we feel like we have gotten there, where I knew that was good enough, that felt good enough because of X, Y and Z. So it perpetuates a sense that I can, if I work hard enough or if I tinker around enough, I'll get there again. But it is a bit of a myth. Okay, I love that. This is the point, I think, where we can really dig in and dive in to what perfectionism is.

7:28Kimberley Wilson:So let's get into the complexity.

7:33Kimberley Wilson:all right so i love a definition and if we could put that into a dictionary style summary what would that sound like so perfectionism is the pursuit of these high unrelenting standards often with negative consequences and i guess it's worth saying here that there isn't such a thing as a clinical diagnosis of perfectionism but it's certainly something that people experience and it can really have an impact on their well-being. That's right. Yeah. In fact, in the research, there's different concepts of what perfectionism is, but there's no formal diagnosis. Yes, because there are other types of perfectionism out there.

8:11Kimberley Wilson:So there are the types of perfectionism where we set impossibly high standards for everybody else. And I'd love to come back to that in another episode. But in today's episode, we'll really be thinking about the very high standards and expectations that we set for ourselves and where they come from and how they influence us in our everyday lives. So Sula, does perfectionism do anything beneficial for us? Because I think a lot of people feel that there's this kind of intuitive sense that there's some benefit is doing us some good. What do you think? Yeah, again, it's interesting to consider the research here and the different perfectionism concepts it tends to be divided up into perfectionistic striving which can be beneficial versus perfectionistic concerns which tends to do us a disservice so perfectionistic striving is the more adaptive standards we might set for ourselves that are achievable feasible gives us a sense of satisfaction makes us feel good.

9:16Kimberley Wilson:So if I, on the last exam I sat, I got a C, but now I'm striving to get a B. Exactly. Exactly. That kind of thing. Knowing this is within my control and, you know, I can do this and it feels good and it's not beyond the pale and it's not going to come at huge detriment to my wellbeing in whatever sense. Whereas negative perfectionistic concerns comes in where it's so intrinsic to your sense of worth and it can be you know again above what's feasible for you to potentially achieve or you can achieve it but it's going to be at significant cost and consequence and to add to that is one of the things that tends to go hand in hand with these negative perfectionistic concerns is high level of self-criticism so you're very harsh on yourself your internal monologue or dialogue might be very mean and cruel an internal mean girl exactly bullying you in your head all the time yeah right and this is this is the reason that I have such a problem with perfectionism because I just I just don't see any of the benefits it's like this constant false promise it's like yes once you reach perfection you will feel good about yourself and people will admire you and you'll be accepted but actually all of the research all of our experience as clinicians says really not um first of all you have set standards that are so high it's impossible to get to so you feel constantly disappointed then also you have this internal harsh critic um and then also i guess you might be looking at other people as competition all of the time as well you know that you're looking at other people and judging their standards and seeing how you can be better than them or how they're better than you and so it actually kind of sets you apart I think it kind of creates this distance between you and other people because you're so your main relationship is with this internal bully and these impossible standards yeah absolutely there's really really interesting research showing that this perfectionism can increase that social disconnection and then it can mean one of the things that we know protects us against stress and the physical effects of stress is social connection.

11:38But that is actually undermined in people who have high levels of perfectionism because of this social disconnection that happens as a result of the internal bully, essentially.

11:48Kimberley Wilson:It's a wholesale nightmare. We've got this way in that it drives your internal stress, It drives disconnection when we know, yes, the biggest set of research outcomes for what is good for well-being and longevity and mental health is social connection. So it gets in the way of the stuff that helps you to feel good. And it leaves you constantly chronically disappointed. And so we see this really strong relationship between perfectionism or perfectionistic concerns in this sense and higher levels of stress, poorer stress resiliency, poorer recovery from stressful events, more anxiety, more depression.

12:27Kimberley Wilson:Exactly. I feel like it needs a rebrand. I feel like perfectionism has had this really, you know, it's got great PR, like I'm a perfectionist and I'm striving for excellence. But actually, when you lay out all of the negative consequences, it's got nothing to say for itself. So ironically, perfectionism is a bit of a failure because it doesn't help us to achieve the things that we think it will or hope it will and the thing is again we see that there's a huge association between high levels of perfectionism and high levels of avoidance coping so you're more likely to be avoidant because of your perfectionism then be empowered to push forward put yourself out there and you know achieve whatever it is you want to achieve because we're so worried that it might result in failure and the vulnerability that comes with that.

13:24So it actually can be this very inhibiting thing that we experience rather than empowering.

13:30Kimberley Wilson:I feel like you're my companion on my takedown of perfectionism. Thank you so much. But for the benefit of the listener, what might we call the four or five key indicators of perfectionism? What does it look like for the individual? There's the high unrelenting standards, but I know that that can also be difficult for people to identify because they think that's not a high standard. These are just normal standards. There's a very all or nothing way of thinking. So, you know, it's either this and then it's just about good enough or not at all. There's no point. Avoidance slash procrastinating, putting things off, is a big identifier or indicator rather of perfectionism.

14:13poor self-esteem tends to go hand in hand with perfectionism because there is this

14:18Kimberley Wilson:fear of failing and it reminds me of what Jeannie was saying right at the top of the episode which is the avoidance coping as you've described it the relentless tinkering and reworking of her work and then not feeling good about it that low self-esteem piece it really feels like Jeannie is caught in this perfectionism trap. Absolutely. Presumably that didn't happen overnight. Where do we think perfectionism starts? So it could be inherent within us, you know, our personality, but it could also be from, you know, where other things come from in childhood, like our environment, our school, our upbringing, our parents, messages that we're given about what's good enough, what's not good enough.

15:04Kimberley Wilson:I'm laughing because I remember taking an exam. It was like a classroom test back to my dad and I got 98 % and I was really proud of myself. And he was like, where's the other 2 %? Do you know what? I hear that a lot though in clinic. I've heard that exact kind of anecdote from so many of my clients. When we're thinking about where perfectionism comes from, a lot of people assume that it does come from experiences where there's a very clear, external, critical voice that's telling you off but that's not always the way you know that's a really good example of the more implicit uh parenting style or feedback that we can get where you might not be told it's not good enough but you are sensing it as a child that oh there's something left to get achieve yeah exactly there's a bit more yes and also it's worth saying there that um even if you do have a parent like that because i don't consider myself to be a perfectionist actually um but i think that's down to my other personality traits, which is I feel like I'm pretty low on conscientiousness and quite rebellious.

16:06Kimberley Wilson:So those aspects of your personality can buffer and augment some of those environmental factors as well. Exactly, yeah. So we have a sense of perfectionism. We have a sense of where it might come from. If we were putting it on a scale of kind of mild to moderate to more severe, and we know it's not a diagnosis, but it does affect people to different intensities. What would things look like at the milder end of the spectrum, do you think? I think a good way of thinking about this is in terms of the consequences. So on the milder end, there are less negative consequences. You might be getting more of a sense of satisfaction from achieving.

16:47There might be some consequences. You know, you stay up later than you should, in my case, opening a lot of tabs and reading and stimulating your own interest. but as we move along the scale there's an increase in negative consequences so other things that you

17:03Kimberley Wilson:care about are being disregarded you have exhausted yourself hurt yourself cut yourself off from family members you know all sorts of things all of these other negative consequences that are happening over here whilst you're looking over here at this impossible goal and then as we go along to the extreme end you know it has a big negative impact on your mental well-being and perhaps even physical well-being as well yes and how would it show up in your physical well-being i mean potentially so many things right because if we do relate it to stress and and that is a big mediator of how perfectionism is going to impact physical health outcomes it might be in you know changing sleep so you could have more difficulties falling asleep you could have insomnia things like that It could be in terms of getting ill more often.

17:52It can interact with your immune system. If you're chronically stressed because you're chronically a perfectionist, then that's going to wear your immune system down and you're more likely to get infections or it's going to take longer to recover from things. So the degree of perfectionism turns up the dial on the degree of stress and then it's the stress that increases the negative outcomes

18:13Kimberley Wilson:of whatever condition someone might be experiencing. Yeah, that's what we think And that's what the research would suggest. Which kind of brings me back to why I have such a problem with perfectionism, which is there are so many negative outcomes. And we kind of throw the word around casually. You know, people sit online and they'll say, you know, I'm a perfectionist. And I mean, if they're thinking about it casually, fine. But if it's actually this kind of core thing that's eating away at them and pushing them to strive for something that they'll never reach, actually they're risking both physical and mental health consequences.

18:45Kimberley Wilson:Absolutely. Yeah. And I guess the other thing to calibrate on that scale of mild to severe perfectionism is that relationship with yourself. If you only feel like you're worthwhile or okay because you're meeting this maybe very arbitrary set of criteria, then that's a very vulnerable foundation, you know, to build a relationship with yourself because there's so many things that can get in the way of you being able to meet those expectations. Yeah. All right, let me gather myself before I start a petition and a march, an anti-perfectionism march. Let's think about some helpful practical solutions for a listener.

19:30Kimberley Wilson:If you're someone who is struggling with perfectionism, you've identified yourself in some of the descriptions. Sula, what sorts of things would you suggest people start with to try to break out of perfectionism? so there's this concept in psychotherapy that you'll be very familiar with behavioral experiments right where we're looking to see can we update our feelings about things as well as like our internal beliefs about things by experimenting doing things slightly differently so with perfectionism you might take you know various different things that you have perfectionistic standards about and pick one that doesn't feel too overwhelming to start with if we think back to genie and she's tirelessly editing these work reports for her boss to get it just right it might be reducing the degree of checking rather than you know not checking at all and so if she's checking 10 times it might be okay i'm only going to check it twice at the end not as I go.

20:33And what you do is you make your predictions. So if I only check two times versus 10 times, I think, and whatever.

20:41Kimberley Wilson:It's going to be terrible. I'm going to be called up and embarrassed. I might, you know, testifying, I might lose my job. Yes. Those kinds of predictions. Exactly. Writing them down and calibrating them as specifically as possible is really great. The other thing that we can do is make percentages of how likely we actually think that is. So you might say okay I don't think I'll lose my job really that's only like a five percent which is still quite a high percentage if you believe that but I do think I'll be called up by my boss and be humiliated so you want to get some kind of calibration of that you do the experiment so check it twice instead of 10 times and then you monitor that outcome so what happened afterwards go back to that list and really you know hold yourself to account did any of those things happen check in for what were the positive things that came from this perhaps well you know i actually went to bed at 10 o 'clock instead of 1 a.m i felt more refreshing myself three hours exactly of the day exactly and what people tend to find is when they do start doing these experiments they see fairly quickly how out of whack the predictions are versus the the reality and that gains momentum very quickly it really does isn't it because we live our lives as if our thoughts and beliefs are facts and we never really challenge them we just go along with them and what I love about this example and this idea is that actually we become quite scientific about our own ideas and our beliefs you write them down you get them down in black and white and then you say is this true or not you become a detective of your own mind and you have a clear outcome absolutely and it's worthwhile knowing that when you do this it's completely natural to feel uncomfortable so allowing yourself some grace to feel uncomfortable as you do it that's not a sign that you shouldn't do it it's a sign that you should do it probably and what I really liked about your example of yourself was having a little bit of humor about it the capacity to kind of look at yourself as as a human who's trying and failing and doing their best having that little bit of compassion is really important as well so you can kind of say here I am again with my 50 tabs all right and just kind of treat yourself like a friend an affectionate friend that you're like okay you're at it again yeah yeah i think that helps so much because yeah in perfectionism we do have that internal bully that's just ready there to point out the shoulds the done wrong the regrets all of that stuff so having or intentionally cultivating that internal ally and humor just really does help with that that that can be a really nice way of offering against this critic because i feel like people feel that you have to completely eliminate that hostile voice in order to be going in the right direction and it's not that at all you just you can hear it but it can be a passenger at the at the back of your bus kind of shouting and you're at the front of your bus still going in the direction that you want to get to so you just leave that passenger at the back and carry on and allow them to talk to themselves.

23:47Yeah, absolutely. I think that's perfectionist in itself, you know, having to get rid of your perfectionism entirely.

23:54Kimberley Wilson:Yes. In order to not be a perfectionist, I have to be perfectly not a perfectionist. Exactly. So I know I came into this conversation with my own bias, but I do think of all the people that I meet and work with, the people who might be listening, who are worried that if they give up their perfectionism, they might lose their edge, you know, that they ascribe some of their success to the perfectionism. That's something that I see a lot, you know, I won't be as successful. But what we have been saying, what the evidence tells us is that actually, that's not the case, that perfectionism creates more problems than it solves.

24:37And so if there's someone out there listening, thinking, can I risk giving up my perfectionism?

24:44Kimberley Wilson:Hopefully this is your invitation to say, actually, let me see if I can try something a bit different. Not only because perfectionism doesn't deliver on its promises, but also because I might be able to make life a little bit easier for myself. Yeah, great summary. I think the question is, what do I gain from letting go of perfectionism? And, you know, that is likely improved mental health, maybe improved physical health. And it might be actually that we find it's easier to get towards our goals without perfectionism. I love that. I feel like that's a revelation. People aren't saying that enough.

25:23Kimberley Wilson:So I hope everyone is listening and hearing that.