In short
Empathy—what it means, how much is “appropriate,” and when too little or too much becomes a problem.
Guest backgrounds
Dr Marta De Roscaedo, clinical psychologist with 20 years’ experience; has worked with children and families and is a mother of two.
Key claims
Empathy is “being with” someone’s feelings (not sympathy, which is “feeling for” them). Empathy has three parts: effective (understanding feelings), compassionate (wanting to help), and cognitive (understanding perspective). Healthy empathy sits in a moderate middle with a “soft barrier” between self and other. Too much empathy can overwhelm people, sometimes via hypervigilance (checking others’ feelings to feel safe). Too little can look like disconnect; extreme cases resemble psychopathy (e.g., walking past someone in distress).
Notable examples
Dr De Roscaedo’s story of not stopping when a woman lay injured at night; she frames her self-questioning as evidence of empathy. Over-empathizing with global news/social media leading to sleeplessness, guilt about normal life, and distress.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Personal Stories of Empathy
2:24 to 4:00
Kimberly shares a personal experience that raises questions about empathy.
“So let me be your guide through the landfill of misinformation to the beautiful, serene landscape of understanding.”
Defining Empathy
4:00 to 6:46
Discussion on the definition of empathy and its various forms.
“Now for anyone listening I'm sure you know people like I do who describe themselves as an empath and you also don't really know what that means.”
Elements of Effective Empathy
6:46 to 12:34
Identifying key elements necessary for understanding and practicing empathy.
“We're going to break this experience of mine down and dig into what it reveals about empathy more generally.”
Development of Empathy from Childhood
12:34 to 14:00
Discussion on how empathy develops from early childhood experiences.
“I feel like we have a good working sense of empathy.”
Understanding Empathy on the Scale
14:00 to 18:05
Explore the concept of empathy and its varying degrees from overwhelm to indifference.
“It might be part of the story, but sometimes it can be, you know, some people are just temperamentally born more able to do this.”
Recognizing and Cultivating Empathy
18:05 to 21:44
Learn how to identify your emotions and develop appropriate empathy skills.
“Any listener can look them up online and you can just download them.”
Listener Engagement and Support Resources
21:44 to 23:03
Find out how listeners can engage with the podcast and access mental health resources.
“It's about that recognition and familiarity and then you can start extending it outwards.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Dr Martha Deiros Collado:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:05Kimberley Wilson:The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever, burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye, grab creamy potato salad and savoury flatbreads from the prepared foods department and round it all out with 365 brand condiments, chips and dips at everyday low prices. Whole Foods Market. Make your summer sizzle.
0:33Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Laminya Mall steps into McDonald's, looks left, sees Pulisic, looks right, sees Jimenez.
0:38Kimberley Wilson:Gives a nod to Ronaldinho in the corner with a FIFA World Cup meal. Ronaldinho sees Son in the booth. Son finds Beckham going for extra Big Mac sauce. He's got Davies at the table just behind him. Davies going for his collectible cup. A steal by Henri, who pulls his own collectible cup. Collect one of nine legendary cups with a FIFA World Cup meal. At participating McDonald's for a limited time, while supplies last. All rights reserved. 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026. Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a psychologist. And this is Complex. The podcast that helps you navigate your way through the information that's out there about mental health.
1:20Kimberley Wilson:In this episode, I'm exploring empathy. Empathy is one of those phrases that's thrown around quite a lot. The term itself is difficult to pin down. What does being empathetic actually mean? What we do know is that if you have too little empathy, it can indicate an underlying mental health disorder. And if you feel you have too much, it can be overwhelming. So what does having the right amount of empathy actually look like?
1:56Kimberley Wilson:In Complex, I want to help you understand your own mental health and your state of mind to give you information and evidence so you can work out when to worry, but most importantly, when not to worry. In this episode, I'll be sharing my own recent story about empathy. And together with my guest, I'll be passing on a few valuable tips for how to manage yourself with more kindness and understanding. So let me be your guide through the landfill of misinformation to the beautiful, serene landscape of understanding.
2:36To help me explore empathy and what it looks like, Dr Marta De Roscaedo is joining me in the studio.
2:44Kimberley Wilson:She's a clinical psychologist with 20 years experience. Hello Marta. Hello. Thank you so much for joining us and being here and being part of the Complex family. Now, tell me a little bit about yourself and your experience.
2:59Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Well, I've worked with children and families my whole career, and I'm also a mum of two children. And I think empathy is actually something I talk about all the time, but I also kind of embody a lot because I think when you're a parent, I was reflecting on this. I think the first kind of thing that you become or you have to do for your children is empathize. Empathize with their experiences and their feelings and just, you know, holding that for them.
3:26Kimberley Wilson:And so outside of yourself and your family, where are you seeing empathy maybe in your clinical practice?
3:33Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think as a clinical psychologist, one of the things that you are kind of trained to do is empathize. It's one of the reasons people come to therapy. and often especially adults they come to the therapy room to be heard to be seen to have their feelings just be sat with rather than fixed and so I think one of the things that I do a lot is just offer empathy in a way that people don't usually receive so I think empathy is something that I come back to over and over again in the therapy room.
4:06Kimberley Wilson:Now for anyone listening I'm sure you know people like I do who describe themselves as an empath and you also don't really know what that means. Empathy isn't something I like to explain in a couple of minutes. It's actually really hard to define but it is important. Empathy or the lack of it affects our lives in many ways. Now I do have my own story about empathy that I want to share with you Marta because I think it throws up some questions around the topic. It's actually something that happened to me the other day. Let's see what you think. So I finished work the other night on Tuesday night and I get home quite late about 10 o 'clock and I was walking up the road and a little bit ahead of me there was someone lying on the floor and there were three people around her.
4:57Kimberley Wilson:She was already in the recovery position. Somebody was saying that they were going to clear her airways. There was somebody else on the phone calling the ambulance. So she had support. And so I slowed down and I took my headphones out and I thought about stopping. But then I thought, you know, I don't think I'm going to be any help here. And so I obviously hoped that she was OK, but I carried on walking. And as I was walking away, I was thinking, do the people watching think I don't care? and does it mean something about how empathic I am that I didn't stop? What do you think?
5:35Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think the fact you even thought about that tells me you are empathic because I think if you're not empathetic, you don't think about it, you just keep walking. You've questioned yourself. That to me is a sign of empathy, you know, that ability of saying, what are those people thinking in that moment about what my choice was because empathy is a choice for me there's something about maybe it was missing something for you and maybe that missing was something like is everything okay are you all right do you need me no okay carry on yes but maybe not having done that which I can understand why you did um because I think it's you know 10 o 'clock at night walking home as a woman with I would be doing something similar to you I think okay and
6:24Kimberley Wilson:these are the questions when we're thinking about how we relate to others in the world and our
6:27Dr Martha Deiros Collado:responsibilities to others in the world and I think you made a thoughtful choice because I think it can be overwhelming for somebody on the floor who is receiving support to have extra people come in there's a sense of voyeurism yes you don't need that extra person watching you in that moment of distress or vulnerability. Yeah. Okay.
6:46Kimberley Wilson:Thank you. We're going to break this experience of mine down and dig into what it reveals about empathy more generally. Hopefully, if you're listening, this will give you a little bit of understanding about yourself and how you might manage yourself or the people around you more effectively. So, Marta, let's get into the complexity.
7:14Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so I love to start with the definition. What do we mean by empathy?
7:20Dr Martha Deiros Collado:What I think about when I think of empathy is that it's about being with somebody in their experience and their feelings rather than kind of feeling for somebody, which is more sympathy, like I feel for you.
7:34Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so if I said, Marta, I've had a terrible day, can you give me the empathic response? versus a sympathetic response?
7:46Dr Martha Deiros Collado:So I think empathy would sound like, oh, that sounds really hard. Tell me more about it. And a sympathetic response might sound like, yeah, it's been a really tough day for me too.
8:03Kimberley Wilson:Okay. So let's break it down further because there are several aspects of empathy. And I diagnosis. We think it's a kind of trait or a way of being, but it does break down into three different types. So there's effective empathy, which is you have a sense of what they're feeling. Compassionate empathy, you want to help. And cognitive empathy, which is you understand where they're coming from. It feels like a slightly more kind of logical, thoughtful, like I can see your point of view.
8:39Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think it's really nice to hear that breakdown, that deconstruction, and just to remember that actually those kind of different bits of empathy develop in different ways. So often little ones develop sympathy first, which a lot of adults think is empathy. But actually it's just that ability to kind of see another little one crying and like either giving them a stroke or like giving them a cuddle, which is sympathizing with them. but it's not full-on empathy because they can't do the compassionate bit you know they can't actually get in their shoes they're just like you're crying so I'm doing what was done to me and then they develop a little bit more of that kind of I want to support you as they get a little bit older usually around the primary school years and then hopefully eventually you get to the cognitive bit which is like and I can see your perspective so it takes time and I think we sometimes feel those three different levels of empathy as well depending on the circumstance.
9:37Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think it can change. Yeah, I imagine the circumstance but also the kind of person you are.
9:42Kimberley Wilson:You know, some people are slightly more cognitive and logical. I had a client describe it as cool empathy and warm empathy. So cool empathy is the more kind of logical, like, oh, I can understand someone's perspective versus the warm empathy, which is I can feel alongside. I really like that. It was lovely. I love when I think one of the things about being a practitioner is that people believe that we're always the ones doing the teaching. But we have this lovely opportunity to learn from the lives and stories of the people we work with. OK, so if we look at empathy, let's say we want to get to the appropriate amount of empathy.
10:18Kimberley Wilson:What would that look like? Can we list four or five key elements so that the listeners can identify it in themselves and understand their own relationship? to empathy? What do you think?
10:32Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think for me, the first thing with empathy is being able to recognize and label emotion in others, as well as in yourself. And it doesn't mean you've experienced it in the same way, but you need to be able to recognize it and have like a name, a label for it. Two, it's perspective taking, that ability to kind of understand what it might feel like to be somebody else. You know, if I was in their shoes, this would be my experience.
10:57Kimberley Wilson:So we're starting to think about where theory of mind might come in, the ability to understand that other people have different minds. They see things from a different point of view from the one that we hold.
11:08Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Yeah, absolutely. Then I think suspending judgment, right?
11:13Kimberley Wilson:That's a tricky one.
11:14Dr Martha Deiros Collado:You know, especially when I do therapy with parents, I think that's a really tricky one. That idea of, oh God, that's a broken breadstick. That's not a big deal. You need to suspend that judgment because to a little one, that is massive.
11:30Kimberley Wilson:But not even to a little one. Like sometimes, you know, you come home from work and your shoes are wet and you're hungry. And the fact that, I don't know, the bin hasn't been taken out is a massive drama. Yeah, it is. And so there's a kind of context to it as well. You know, understanding, no, the fact that the bins haven't been taken out isn't the worst thing in the world to have happened to you. But I can empathize with the bigger part, the bigger story.
11:57Dr Martha Deiros Collado:And I think the fourth one I can think of is about kind of compassion. I think people don't understand that compassion is about making things a little bit better for somebody else. But sometimes that, I mean, often that doesn't mean fixing. You know, it's not so much the words that you use or the things that you do or the advice that you give. It's showing somebody that you can be there for them in that moment. Or even just asking the question, what would help right now? how can I help you? That can be a much more useful question than narrating like 20 things the person can do to like make it better.
12:32Kimberley Wilson:Yes. Okay. Thank you very much for that. I feel like we have a good working sense of empathy. Where do we think that empathy develops? Does it start in childhood?
12:42Dr Martha Deiros Collado:So we think it begins from birth. As soon as you start to be held, picked up by a loving adult and your brain starts to learn that when you're crying or when you're feeling something, it can feel safe. You know, if a safe adult, a caring adult starts to name your feeling like, oh, you're feeling a little bit scared now, you know, I'm right here for you. So I think empathy begins with my feelings are felt by somebody else and understood by somebody else. And that allows children to start to think about how do other people feel when I look at you?
13:19Kimberley Wilson:What does that look like? So if I'm the listener and I'm thinking, actually, I worry that I'm a bit cold. I don't really feel like I understand other people's emotions, that there might be a way in which my emotions weren't really explained very well to me when I was growing up. And so I haven't learned that skill of labeling or understanding what I'm feeling. And if I'm kind of stuck in not knowing what I'm feeling, it's going to be much harder almost to do that translation for the other person and think, oh, OK, you might be feeling such and such emotion.
13:58Dr Martha Deiros Collado:So I think, I mean, I think if you're a listener and you feel like that, there might be lots and lots of reasons. It might not be how you were parented. It might be part of the story, but sometimes it can be, you know, some people are just temperamentally born more able to do this.
14:15Kimberley Wilson:There's also sometimes a relationship with neurodivergence and the ability to label your emotions. So, yes, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was a lack or a failing in your early life, but that there's something about this ability to label and understand your own emotions that is part, like an essential piece of the puzzle of empathy.
14:34Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Yes, I agree.
14:39Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so what we know about empathy so far is that it is helpful for ourselves and our relationships and it's necessary in terms of understanding where we sit in a kind of social world. So if we think about a scale of empathy, how do we work out where we might sit on it? So ideally I think we want to sit somewhere in the middle because the extremes of anything are usually unstable and unsustainable. So this moderate place on the scale is what you spoke about earlier on which is being able to keep a reasonable distance you know feeling compassion understanding seeing the other person's perspective but I know that we are separate people.
Read the full transcript
15:23Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Yeah it's like there's an invisible barrier. A soft a cushioned barrier but a barrier nonetheless. That barrier has to exist because it is about saying, I can be with you in this moment and I can have my own moment at the same time.
15:36Kimberley Wilson:Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely true. And I think most people listening will fall somewhere in this moderate middle part of the scale. But if we start at the top of that scale, what does it mean? How does it feel to have or think you have too much empathy?
15:53Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I think it's overwhelming. I think it can emotionally lead you to distress because you're basically taking on everybody's kind of emotional experiences, baggage. You know, one example of that for me would be when you're watching the news or you're watching these horrors around the world and you take that on. And it has such an impact on how you function in the world.
16:18Kimberley Wilson:I've literally had people say, I feel like it is my moral obligation to feel other people's pain. but what's ended up happening for them is that they stay up till two three four in the morning on social media and they they're utterly exhausted and overwhelmed and tearful and hopeless
16:36Dr Martha Deiros Collado:yes and feeling really guilty about eating or doing kind of everyday things because they're like how can I possibly eat the food in my fridge and I think that's a problem because that's when you're over empathizing when it starts to affect you physically emotionally you know your everyday day.
16:52Kimberley Wilson:I also suspect that for some people who describe themselves as having too much empathy, as in they're really acutely aware of other people's feelings and they take them on. I suspect that for some of those people, actually what they're describing is a hypervigilance. Agree. That they have learned somewhere along the line that in order to survive, they need to know precisely what I suppose the authority or the important person in their environment is feeling and that's extended and generalized into the rest of their life as them paying really acute attention to other people's feelings. A hundred percent.
17:32Dr Martha Deiros Collado:I believe that too, that it's actually hypervigilance and like, I must check in on how everybody in this room is feeling. Otherwise I'm actually under threat.
17:41Kimberley Wilson:Yeah. And I think I feel really moved thinking about that. I can see you do as well. So there's a real sense in which being at this end of the scale, it doesn't quite feel as helpful as a kind of moderate empathy could be. It feels overwhelming. It feels too much. It feels perhaps a bit frightening. And like you can't control or manage how you're functioning kind of day to day. It's not healthy either. but I suppose I want to think about those people who are worried that they don't have quite enough empathy or you know they feel themselves as being a little bit cut off what might that feel like and what might be the difficulties that they experience so I think one of one of the ways is like thinking
18:25Dr Martha Deiros Collado:back at sympathy which I think is already the part of disconnect it's oh I feel for you but I don't understand you you know like seeing somebody cry and being like yeah you're upset you know i sympathize with you oh yeah the end right the empathy bit the warm empathy bit is gone and i think on the extreme i guess it's more psychopathic yes very unlikely but there are a group of people
18:51Kimberley Wilson:in society who are almost characterized by a lack of empathy they don't feel at all so you know
18:58Dr Martha Deiros Collado:you're crying it's not a big deal you know like using your example at the beginning with that young woman on the floor i think a psychopath would just keep walking past go home would not think back at what was wrong did she need help you know especially if there was no one around they would just be like not my problem okay and that is not a soft barrier no that's like a hard
19:20Kimberley Wilson:wall okay so leaving psychopaths to one side we may come back to them in another episode how do we help people feel and experience learn this skill of appropriate empathy let's think
19:35Dr Martha Deiros Collado:about that i think it's never too late to learn it but it starts with just even recognizing emotions and then being able to pinpoint when that feeling makes sense for you i'm always one of those people that thinks you start really really small and basic so maybe look at an emotional wheel, like an emotion wheel.
19:56Kimberley Wilson:Absolutely love a feelings wheel. Any listener can look them up online and you can just download them.
20:01Dr Martha Deiros Collado:It's the language, right? It's about realising, recognising, having language first.
20:08Kimberley Wilson:So we might have a problem that people actually don't know what their feelings are. So we need to start there and solve that problem. So one of the things is about getting into your body, trying to recognise how you're feeling. Is your chest tight? Are your shoulders hunched? What does that mean? Can you learn to check in regularly with where your body is? And then once you're familiar with that, label that emotion, grab a feelings wheel, start to match what's happening in your body with the right name for the emotion.
20:33Dr Martha Deiros Collado:Yeah. And I think if you're doing this and it's new or unfamiliar to you, there's a third step, which is about soothing yourself because that the experience of doing those two things can bring discomfort in people who are trying to build skills on empathy. So one of the ways to do that is physical soothing. I'm quite a physical person so you could do a really simple thing which is just cup your face and hold it for 20 seconds and just breathe and this is also often a kind of physical tactile thing that we've received when we were younger often in childhood so it might connect you back to that and if you've never had that it doesn't matter because you can give it to yourself it's really tender it's really lovely thank you if you're a cognitive person maybe there are some words you can give yourself like it's okay that I feel this way you know like I'm you know I'm practicing you know it's okay to
21:26Kimberley Wilson:find this hard what we're saying is getting to know yourself a little better whether that is about where you are in your body or whether it's about choosing the right word for your emotion and that this is helpful whether you feel like you experience too much empathy or whether you think you feel too little. It's about that recognition and familiarity and then you can start extending it outwards. Oh, I really agree with that.
21:56Kimberley Wilson:My thanks to my lovely empathetic guest, Dr. Marta Diros Collado. And to everyone listening, I hope you found this episode helpful and illuminating. It feels really good to get to the bottom of a word like empathy that's used so much and I think perhaps overused. I love how a little nugget of information like labeling and emotion can actually make quite a big difference in our lives. Now, I want Complex to be your trusted space, a place where you can use the evidence-based information you hear on the show to understand how to look after yourself better. And we want to hear from you. I'd love to know what you'd like me to talk about and why.
22:39Kimberley Wilson:You can email your questions to the show, but please note, I can't answer them personally. So if you have a concern about a medical or mental health issue, then I'd strongly urge you to seek expert support. What we do want to know from you is any questions and observations you have about mental health. We might use what you tell us in our show, but we'll make sure we'll do it anonymously. The email address is complex at bbc.co.uk. And if you want details of help and support with some of the issues raised in the podcast, they're available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. And you can find the link in the show notes on BBC Sounds.
23:19Kimberley Wilson:Next episode, we're looking at lying. Now, of course, none of us like to think that we're liars, but studies repeatedly show that most of us lie once or twice a day. Now, they're probably little white lies and maybe they're fine. But when does lying tip over into becoming an actual problem? And what can we do about it? Well, you can hear I'm on a mission. I want to break down some of the myths around mental health and cut through some of the noise. And you're part of the conversation. So please join us by subscribing to Complex on BBC Sounds and making sure your push notifications are turned on so you don't miss out on a single episode.
24:08Kimberley Wilson:And that's it. Many thanks again to my guest, Dr. Marta Diros-Coyado, and also to the lovely production team at Loftus Media. I'd better say their names because some of them are here in the studio with me. Kirsten Lass is the producer Katie Chana-Clark is the assistant producer technical producer is Reuben Huxtable digital editor is Richard Berry science editor Ramiz Abar and at BBC Sounds assistant commissioner Izzy Lee Poulton and commissioning editor Rhian Roberts I'm Kimberley Wilson thanks for listening take care and go gently
24:49Kimberley Wilson:Hi, it's India here. I'm very excited to bring you the return of child. So we've been on the journey of an embryo all the way to a baby's first birthday. And now we are going to enter the explosive life of the toddler, because this is the perfect place to unpick the very complicated world of emotions, the emotions that affect us all. So come with us as over eight episodes, we fall through the abundant and dizzying world of happiness, descend into the depths of fear and the gendered and dangerous world of anger and then crawl, wobble and bounce our way through awe, love, anxiety and surprise. From BBC Radio 4, this is Child with me, India Rackerson.
25:34Kimberley Wilson:Listen first on BBC Sounds.
25:41Dr Martha Deiros Collado:He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history.
25:45Kimberley Wilson:He's won the prestigious Ballon d 'Or award five times. He's the all-time leading goalscorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right, Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
26:15You
From the publisher
Kimberley Wilson is on a mission to sift through all the information and misinformation that’s out there around our mental health to help create more self-awareness and understanding.
As a chartered psychologist herself, she invites expert guests - trained psychologists, psychiatrists and psychotherapists - to join her and together they share insight and valuable tips.
In this episode, Kimberley explores empathy with clinical psychologist Dr Martha Deiros Collado. Do you have too much empathy or too little, and what does the right amount of empathy look like?
Please get in touch if there’s anything you would like Kimberley to explore. The email address is complex@bbc.co.uk. We might use what you tell us in the show, but we will do so anonymously. If you don’t want your email to be included in the podcast, then please remember to let us know.
Kimberley is not able to answer emails personally. If you are concerned you have a medical or mental health issue, then please contact your GP or seek expert help. Please also take a look on the BBC Actionline page: https://www.bbc.co.uk/actionline/ where you can find details of organisations offering information and support for common issues.
The Complex team: Host: Kimberley Wilson Guest: Dr Martha Deiros Collado Producer: Kirsten Lass Assistant Producer: Katie Chandler Clarke Researcher: Grace Revill Science Editor: Rami Tzabar Tech Producer: Reuben Huxtable Sound Designer: Ruth Rainey Digital Lead: Richard Berry Cover art photography: Darren Skene And for BBC Sounds: Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton Commissioning Editor: Rhian Roberts
Complex is a Loftus Media production for BBC Sounds.