Giving yourself compassion

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1:07Kimberley Wilson:I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a counselling psychologist and this is Complex. The psychology podcast that I hope can help you cut a path through the many peaks and troughs of information around mental health. In today's episode, I'm exploring self-compassion. now regular listeners will know that self-compassion has come up again and again on complex it really does seem to be the thread running through everything from managing perfectionism to being more decisive

1:45Kimberley Wilson:and the thing is most of us are genuinely instinctively kind to the people we love when they're struggling. We tell them their mistakes don't define them. We encourage them. We wrap them in warmth. But when we're the ones struggling, we just can't seem to extend the same compassion to ourselves. Instead, we listen to the harsh inner critic who judges us mercilessly for every shortcoming and every mistake. We know we should be kinder to ourselves, but where do we even start? Well, my dear listener, that is exactly what we're going to be working through today. As usual, I've invited an expert guest to help me unpick the topic and together we'll also be hearing from a listener.

2:35Kimberley Wilson:So let me be your guide from the thorny thicket of misinformation to the spring picnic of understanding.

2:47Kimberley Wilson:I'm joined today by Joshua Munn, a therapist specialising in ADHD and OCD who also has lived experience of both conditions. And we had such a wonderful conversation about ADHD which you can find in the feed on BBC Sounds. But Josh, thank you so much for joining us again. Yeah, privilege. Thank you for having me again. Welcome back to the studio. And can you remind our listeners about your work? I'm a cognitive behavioural psychotherapist. I primarily work with individuals who are experiencing ADHD, anxiety and OCD. So I work in private practice and yeah, I'm big on self-compassion. So hopefully today I can share some of my knowledge and some ways that you can start practising self-compassion.

3:30Kimberley Wilson:And how does self-compassion show up for you personally though, Josh? Yeah, that's a great question, Kimberley. Because for years I used to really struggle with self-compassion. And particularly when I was younger, I came from sort of a sporting background. So I was always very hard on myself, always feeling like I needed to sort of improve and do better. So self-compassion was just something that I never really connected with until I actually started to understand what self-compassion actually is. Okay, so that's what we're going to be digging into. And I think this is going to be a fascinating episode.

4:03Kimberley Wilson:now as a returning guest and listeners will also know that i love to start with a definition so josh what do we mean by self-compassion so self-compassion kimberly when i look at the definition from paul gilbert who is the founder of compassion focused therapy he sort of defines it as a sensitivity towards our own distress within a motivation and commitment to do something to alleviate it in some way so essentially it's learning to relate to our own difficult feelings in a more kinder caring way but then it has a doing part it's a practical part of then what can i do to support myself with that difficult feeling there's also kristen neff's work that built upon that she talks about these additional components so absolutely the self-kindness but also the shared humanity yes you know we are all humans we all struggle we all suffer and so you have to also recognize that you're part of that and then the mindfulness part which is how do we separate ourselves from the judgments that we conjure up in our own minds because that's one of the really difficult things isn't it we hear something incredibly harsh and because it's come from ourselves we believe it and we take it as read that it must be true exactly that and I think that's been one of the barriers for me Kimberly to being more self-compassionate was that sort of being sort of hooked into my own self-critic and naturally not wanting to be with painful feelings or experiences and naturally wanting to avoid those which then really makes it hard to be self-compassionate because we completely missed the mindfulness component there of turning towards our own pain and distress.

5:38Kimberley Wilson:People hear self-compassion or self-kindness and they think slacking off, self-indulgence, just allowing yourself to lie around eating bonbons and not actually doing anything constructive in the world. Well, that's what I used to think, Kimberly, that was one of the reasons why it took me a while to connect with self-compassion. I used to think it's going to make me lazy, unmotivated, I'm not going to reach my goals, I'm not going to improve, but actually it's quite the opposite.

6:05Kimberley Wilson:So we've got this clear understanding of what self-compassion is. Thank you very much. And compassion, as we know, is very hard to give ourselves. You've touched on that already. and we've certainly had lots and lots of emails in from people saying how do I do it what is it all about and so I'm going to read one of those emails out now and I'm going to call this person Celeste to protect her identity. So Celeste says I'm struggling to let go of the sadness guilt and regret that I have been carrying since leaving my wonderful kind ex-husband just over 10 years ago. I have only myself to blame. Sometimes when I try to let go, I remember how much I hurt him and that I don't deserve to get over it.

6:51Kimberley Wilson:And then I'm back to square one. I've decided or tried to decide to stop whining to myself. And this works for a while. But I realise I haven't let go because I believe I don't deserve to. It's high time I got over it. I'm willing to work hard on this, but feel stuck thank you for sharing that with us celeste i'm sure a lot of listeners can really relate to this experience and i think certainly what i can hear josh is the harshness in celeste's internal conversation but what do you make of her email yeah it sounds like she's been through a very hard time with it and it's so natural how she's responded to a very difficult life experience and i think our minds often do this where if we've had to make a difficult life decision or do something very challenging or we feel like we've hurt someone in some way our mind will often ruminate and dwell over it and really beat ourself up for the decision that we've made it sounds really punishing yeah and I think that belief often shows up as well that we don't deserve to move forward I don't deserve to be happy which really keeps us stuck in those really painful feelings and it gives I think a sense of nowness as well even though it's 10 years on when we sort of think about it over and over again it makes it feel like it's happening over and over again which can be very, very difficult.

8:07Kimberley Wilson:Yeah, as if she's in her mind, and this is just a supposition, but she's paying penance by punishing herself for the harm that she feels she's done to her ex. And a lot of people I work with, Kimberly, come in with this idea, I just want to get over it. I just don't want to feel that anymore. And it's not how self-compassion works because actually with self-compassion we're not trying to get rid of emotions and thoughts. We're actually just trying to see if we can hold them more lightly. can we make some room for them whilst we still engage in life so it's not like I should never feel guilty again or I should never feel sad about what happened but can I make some space for that sadness greet that sadness with a bit of humanity whilst I also try to re-engage in what matters in my life and I think what this email shows is that whilst self-compassion you know if we don't kind of understand it if we don't get to grips with it it can sound flimsy it can sound kind of indulgent but the alternative is this kind of very painful internal experience which is really punishing and which can keep people trapped you know in their rumination in their pain in their self-castigation so I think we can hear how important the topic is and also you know how moving it is and so this feels like a good point for us to get into the complexity.

9:28Kimberley Wilson:Yeah, definitely.

9:34Kimberley Wilson:We talk about self-compassion a lot on this podcast and it can really feel like the holy grail. It's always the answer to all of our troubles. And if that's the case, and you've described finding it difficult early on in your career, why is it so hard for us to be self-compassionate? Yeah, I think there's so many reasons involved. And Kim Lee, I think when it comes to other people, I think because naturally we are at a bit of a distance from their emotions and thoughts because we're not in it. I think we can see the full picture. We can see things a bit differently. Whereas when it comes to our own pain and struggles, it often activates our threat system, which can often inject cortisol through the body, which is a stress hormone.

10:15So when we're going through something very difficult, we often get hijacked by this system, which is very powerful because it sort of changes the way we think. We think more negatively. We can get more anxious, which makes it very hard then to access self-compassion because we're very much in our red system.

10:32Kimberley Wilson:So you focus on finding threats. It almost comes this kind of self-reinforcing system where you think something terrible is going to happen and you look for confirmation of that idea. Yeah, which makes it very hard to hear that compassionate voice because we can't really access it in that moment. Yes. So what's the impact on us? The impact, I think, can be everywhere. where it can be from the way we feel about ourselves, having low self-esteem, feeling like we're not good enough. It can often lead to sort of perfectionism. So this need to always like overcompensate and always feel like we need to be working harder.

11:07It can lead to people-pleasing tendencies. So we feel like we always need to put the needs of others before our own. And it can lead to difficulties with our physical health. If we're always being self-critical and activating that threat system, that can also have quite a detrimental impact on our physical well-being as well.

11:22Kimberley Wilson:Yes, and also the ways that we cope, I think. We know that people who are low on self-compassion are more likely to choose these kind of maladaptive coping mechanisms. They might be more likely to drink, smoke, use drugs, gamble, overeat, all sorts of things. Massively. So rather than sitting with that pain, those negative thoughts, we do something to block that out very quickly, which then becomes a problem in itself. So what's the flip side of that then? What are the benefits of self-compassion? What is the impact of being more kind to ourselves? Yeah. Self-compassion can actually change our physiology.

12:02What we know from the research is that when we're kinder to ourself and more compassionate, it can actually trigger oxytocin, which is often referred to as like the bonding or connection hormone, which can really help regulate our emotions. A big part of self-compassion I never knew about when I was much younger is that self-compassion also involves a lot of courage, being courageous to actually do something that makes you feel very uncomfortable or being courageous enough to turn towards a painful memory or experience with then sort of the wisdom to think about how can I support myself with this whereas when we're being self-critical we just cut off from that that's a really lovely

12:38Kimberley Wilson:point because actually also that courage can then become this virtuous circle because if I've demonstrated courage in turning towards something that was difficult or taking a risk then I give myself evidence that I can do that and then I can use that to build up more and more courage and more and more risk-taking or adventurousness going forward. But I suppose we have to take it back a step because there's a question as to where this harsh inner voice comes from. You know, are we born with a little kind of inner tyrant who's horrible to us or does it emerge a bit later on? I think we all have an inner critic, all of us.

13:21Some people's is much louder than others. And I think our critical voice internally is very much shaped through our environment, early life experiences, home life, school life, the messages we essentially receive. Because for a lot of people I work with, Kimberley, who have like a very strong inner critic, a lot of the time that voice will mimic what they've heard growing up, whether that's a critical parent, a teacher, maybe something that's happened in their friendship circles.

13:47Kimberley Wilson:Sometimes religious doctrine as well. Yes. Taking kind of harsh judgments of themselves. Exactly. So we think it's this kind of process of internalising some implicit or explicit message that you've received from the outside world. So it might not have been that your parent did compare you negatively to your sibling, but you might have felt that they did. Absolutely. And I think another point, Kimberley, is that for some people, that self-critical voice at some point in their life might have actually protected them in some way, might have helped them avoid embarrassment, shame. Can you give me an example?

14:20Yeah, so like, for example, myself, when I was growing up, I used to hate public speaking, which is the irony that I can do it now. But I really struggled, particularly at school, like saying my answers out loud or being put on the spot. So my mind would often be quite self-critical and say, Josh, you don't know the answer. You don't know what you're saying. So that I'd keep quiet and not speak up, which then would protect me from that embarrassment and anxiety.

14:44Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so it was the inner critic you experienced at the time as this protective mechanism, stopping you from being humiliated or being embarrassed by saying the wrong thing in a public place. In that case, because here you are now, a returning guest on Complex, how did that shift? How did you learn to conquer it and be like, oh, hey, actually, maybe it won't be such a disaster if I say something? self-compassion and how this helped kimberly was actually starting to not fight with my inner critic but more so understand it and understand that a lot of times in my life the inner critic has shown up when i felt vulnerable or where i felt very anxious and my critic was there to help me avoid that discomfort in some way but recognizing that it doesn't serve me anymore if i want to do things like podcasts and my instagram and do groups i would have to sort of lean into that discomfort in some way.

15:39It doesn't stop my inner critic, Kimberley, like even before I came today, the inner critic was like, are you sure? Are you sure you can do this? But now I greet that critic with compassion, like we've got this, it's all right, thank you for looking out for me, but we're still going to move towards our values today.

15:52Kimberley Wilson:Do you remember what your first public speaking event was or where you really felt like you were taking a big step? It was when I was actually working in the NHS, I was in a talking therapy service and we'd go out and do community workshops And I remember going to, I think it was a college I went to and I was petrified. There's all these sort of teenagers glaring at me and here I was talking about anxiety and my heart was racing. I was sort of trembling. But I was so proud of myself, the fact that I did that. And that really then gave me the confidence to try it again. And then I tried it again and again.

16:22And then here I am.

16:24Kimberley Wilson:gorgeous I love that for you and I love that for that version of you one of the rebuttals that I come across when I'm trying to invite someone to be more self-compassionate is that they will lose their edge that it's the harshness it's the punishment it's the unrelenting criticism that will help them to achieve going forwards what would you say in response to that I think there's different forms of self-criticism we have more like self-improvement or Josh, you could do better. But the one that I think is more harmful is self-loathing, self-attacking. And I think often when we're always self-critical, it translates into more like self-attacking, self-talk that might get you where you need to go in life, but you're not going to feel good in the process.

17:06So I always think to myself, either way, I'm going to try and get to my goal, but why don't we get there being a bit kinder to ourselves? Or at the end of it, I'm going to feel a lot better. An analogy I often use with clients, Kimberly, is imagine you're on like this tough hike or you're doing this really tough walk and you're going up loads of hills and it's really steep and you get to bring one friend with you friend one tells you how far away it is how rubbish you are and you're doing really bad and you're the worst person to ever do this or you can take friend two of you who acknowledges that this is really hard right now but keep going you're doing your best let's keep moving forward you're living your values here be kind to yourself I know which one I'll take with me yes and that's going to be the friend that has snacks in their

17:43Kimberley Wilson:backpack so I'm thinking that people are listening and they're kind of wondering how do I know if I'm self-compassionate and I think one of the easiest ways in is being able to hear how you talk to yourself when you make a small mistake so I'm going to ask you Josh about the before time so if you spill a cup of tea before your training how would you talk to yourself well I can even apply this to like doing DIY Kimberley because I'm terrible at DIY terrible sort of practical stuff it's just something i've never been good at so old version of me would be that you're an idiot what's wrong with you why can't you do this and that would hurt but i'll do that and not even realize that that's why i'm hurting is because of actually how i've just talked to myself so it was automatic very automatic and when it's so automatic you don't even have that awareness that that is your critic you just think that that's the absolute truth yeah and this small mistake then would like take over my whole day it's like all i would think about i'd be in my threat system thinking why did I do that and then it would spill out into other areas of my life where I'd maybe be more like quiet withdrawn because in my head it's like oh I've done this silly mistake and I can't move past it and then it triggers another cycle after because then once you come out of it and you realize oh maybe it was a bit silly there then you feel guilty for how you reacted which sets off another chain of critical thoughts oh yeah I'm sorry that I was so unavailable I'm sorry that I've it's just I mean it's just a disaster isn't it like it's exhausting If listeners take anything away from this, we really want them to hear that it's not about being self-indulgent.

19:15It's really about freeing yourself up to be able to move forward.

19:20Kimberley Wilson:And that punishing voice is really not helping you. No. It's not giving you the thing that you think it is. Yeah. Thank you. That's really helpful.

19:34Kimberley Wilson:so josh as you know and as our regular listeners will know i quite like to put our topic on a scale to help us understand the bigger picture and to see where we fit so if on one side we have a complete absence of self-compassion and at the other end we have what we might think of as self-indulgence because that is the common mistake. What does that look like, that spectrum, but also where does healthy self-compassion sit on that scale? Yeah, I think healthy self-compassion can be sits sort of in the middle where like it's okay to make mistakes. You're a human, Josh. You can carry on your day without punishing yourself.

20:18It's okay. Whereas like the unhealthy side of being self-critical is like I can't move on this is who I am I'm a bad person yes and it becomes

20:26Kimberley Wilson:this kind of not a description of what's happening in the moment but a description of how things will be forever and ever yeah the sense of permanency which I think keeps us stuck in it yeah and at the other end what would a self-indulgent yeah Josh look like yeah self-indulgent would be I guess not living by my values maybe doing things that only I like and not thinking about other people that I care about, like my daughter, my partner, probably quite dismissive of my own feelings as well. Whereas that compassionate part of us is there on the good days, but it's also there on the not so good days.

21:00It's sort of, it's a bit like our umbrella we take out when there's a storm outside.

21:09Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so for everyone listening, let's start to think about how we can begin to quieten our harsh inner critic. It can be incredibly loud sometimes and start extending some kindness to ourselves. So Josh, what are the kinds of things that we can do to start to practice giving ourselves compassion? I often find a good place to start is with the body. To practice self-compassion is just using our breath as like an anchor, particularly if you're feeling very overwhelmed or feeling very like anxious. Just taking a moment to breathe, to breathe quite slowly and deeply, just as a way to ground your nervous system because it's very hard to shift into other ways of thinking and being without first doing something with the body just to settle things down a little.

21:54Kimberley Wilson:Yes, and I think that can feel like a much easier access point. You know, the body taking a breath, taking a moment, sitting down, then trying to slightly interrogate the inner workings of your psyche. Yeah, definitely. Whether that's through like stretching, moving, doing some yoga, doing some exercise just as a way to re-regulate and one that I like as well Kimley is called the kind hand and so it's basically just place a kind hand over your chest or wherever you might be feeling that pain that anxiety and the idea is like bit like giving yourself a mini hug so if I know I have to do something very difficult now I'll take a breath offer myself a bit of a kind hand and then move forward because it sort of just helps ground my my threat system a little that's really nice I think it's always useful to start with a tiny practice one thing is changing that inner nickname so you were talking about with the diy you'd say oh i'm an idiot or i'm silly i'm and just just change it to something that's neutral yeah like if i spill a cup of tea i refer to myself as wilson come on wilson yeah i love that so it's almost like i'm talking to a sitcom character yeah oh wilson's done it again so it's much more neutral rather than this kind of harsh voice yeah that's a great one getting a bit of separation from you and that critic i often imagine mine being like this critical radio station playing i don't have to listen to on loop you can just turn it down yeah i have some choice in how i engage with that but also as well kimberly i think when you're starting new with self-compassion i think trying to make it more of an action is a good starting point because sometimes if we make it too internal it can be very hard especially if you're someone who spent a lifetime avoiding emotions we want to start really small and sometimes behaviors can be a really good way in just like think about self-care what you're eating exercise doing things that you enjoy because that behavior signals to your brain that actually like you have some worth and you do matter yes it's almost as if you say if I loved myself if hypothetically I cared about myself what would be the one thing that I would do and it could be tiny instead of using instant coffee would I have a filter coffee in the morning or would I upgrade my toothbrush you know these tiny little reminders that you're deserving of kindness absolutely and that's how I always start my morning now Kimberley by actually taking my vitamins every morning but I see that as like an act of self-compassion because I'm doing something to look after myself I think it's appropriate here for us to plug therapy because it can be very very hard to catch your own inner critic 100 % Kimberly and a lot of people I work with, they've been so self-critical their whole life that they don't even hear the thought anymore.

24:37They go straight to the feeling. So often when someone's in my clinic and they're feeling highly anxious or there's feelings of shame showing up, I also just check in what's going through your mind right now. And they're like, huh? I said, what was you just saying to yourself? And they're like, I was calling myself an idiot. And I was like, did you see the link there between how you felt and maybe what you said to yourself? And they're like, oh, wow. So it's a bit of a light bulb moment for many people.

24:58Kimberley Wilson:Yeah. Because we all have blind spots. I think for a lot of people when they've been so self-critical their whole life it can be so hard to shift into more kinder inner dialogue so sometimes even externalizing that compassion can be a good start and sometimes people in therapy will like think what will Josh say in this moment and using that as like an external anchor into self-compassion rather than just sort of trying to change their inner dialogue straight away. Yes instead of the harsh voice that they internalized earlier on in their development they start to internalize that kind voice that your therapist ideally has been able to provide a model for you.