How to handle embarrassment

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0:30Kimberley Wilson:haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Who's actually won the Iran war? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Asma Khaled. And together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. The US and Iran say they've struck a deal to end the war. But a key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting. And is the situation better, worse or the same for the region and Iran. For the full story, check out The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a counselling psychologist and this is Complex. The psychology podcast that helps you navigate your way through all the information that's out there about our mental health.

1:19Kimberley Wilson:So hopefully you can live a calmer, happier, healthier life. In today's episode, I'm exploring embarrassment. And, oh dear, we have all been there. The thing about embarrassment is that everybody gets embarrassed, but then we get embarrassed about being embarrassed. So in this episode, I'd love to dig into what's going on for us and whether we can or even should do anything about it. So let me be your guide from the toe-curling cringe of misinformation to the glorious self-acceptance of understanding.

2:13Kimberley Wilson:I'm joined today by psychotherapist Jennifer Cox. Welcome back to the Complex Studio, Jennifer. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited for this. So we've already had some really good conversations about rage and about gaslighting. But for anybody who's new to you, can you just tell us a little bit about your work? So as you said, I'm a psychotherapist. I wrote a book called Women Are Angry. And I love thinking about feelings. It's my favourite thing to do. So when you asked me to come and talk about embarrassment, I was very excited. You left it the chance. Yeah, I did. And I've rolled up my sleeves and I'm ready to go.

2:55Kimberley Wilson:Okay. Well, having said that, when was the last time that you were embarrassed? I think I am embarrassed a lot. All the time, just a baseline state. Baseline embarrassment. Normative embarrassment. But I can't be bothered to engage with it. It would slow me down too much. It would stop me doing pretty much everything. And so I think I've learned over the years, just crack on. Well, that little nugget makes me think that you might be the perfect person for us to be talking to about embarrassment. So I think this is going to be another good one.

3:38Kimberley Wilson:OK, so listeners will know that at this point, I love to start with a definition. So, Jennifer, how would you define embarrassment? I would define it initially as a survival mechanism. It's a pro-social behaviour, which I guess we would say helps us adhere to social norms. Okay, so it's about adhering to social norms. But if I fall over, I might feel really embarrassed. But it's not wrong for someone to trip and fall over. No, you're right. It's not wrong, but it does expose something about our frailty, fragility, vulnerability. I think it's basically a self-conscious emotion. so it makes us kind of more aware of ourselves when all we want is to basically blend in just disappear disappear be the same okay so it's something perhaps about standing out but not in the way that we like to stand out we like to stand we haven't chosen with our accolades and our achievements and our perfect skin and our shiny hair yeah and it's an accident yeah we wouldn't have chosen it.

5:00We didn't plan it. And I think that air of, oh God, I've sort of pants down moment. You've seen something and I didn't want you to see it. I think that's one of the kind of the linchpins of embarrassment.

5:16Kimberley Wilson:Okay. I think one of the things about embarrassment, perhaps almost uniquely to a lot of the other emotions is just how physical it can be. Like you can sometimes feel yourself just like turning inwards, like melting away, like literally shrinking. Your stomach is churning. Your face is hot. Some people will blush. And so it's deeply physical. but then as you're describing our brains will put meaning on top of that and like that's the emotion of embarrassment that we're talking about absolutely i think of it a bit like if we burn ourselves the message to our brain is stop back off that's that's going to do you harm so it's a kind of psychological equivalent of oh that that shouldn't have happened did anyone see and sort of sort yourself out as fast as you can.

6:17Kimberley Wilson:I really feel like we have such a vivid view and idea of embarrassment and actually it feels like the perfect time to bring in a story that's been passed on to us. So this is someone that we're going to call Aaliyah and I'm going to read her story and Jennifer I would love to hear your thoughts. So Aaliyah says, I had a very embarrassing moment at work once. I had a very random adult themed dream about a hot guy at work and then bumped into him the next day. I panicked and had a very visceral response. I went so red, sweaty palms and everyone asked what was wrong. So I spilled. Then I was teased by my colleagues for about five months until he left the organisation.

7:08He was unscathed, but I was mortified.

7:13Kimberley Wilson:I just had to avoid him, even though I'd loved to have gotten to know him better. So thank you, Aliyah, for sharing that. If you could see our faces, we are there with you. Jennifer, what are your thoughts? Oh, poor woman. I mean, I suppose, well, I'm having a few thoughts. One is, what's the problem? You can't help what your brain gives you, what your unconscious gives you. But I think this touches on your point about the kind of meaning and what we think it shows. And people have that thing with dreams, which is we think it means something really fundamental. She might not have even liked him that much.

7:56Kimberley Wilson:But this dream, because it emerges from our own unconscious, we think, oh, it must be really significant. Yeah, I think you're right. So our brain in the dream has kind of unraveled and exposed itself in this way that we wouldn't have necessarily chosen it to. But then also the next day, our body lets us down and sort of reveals this dreadful secret in a way that obviously she felt she couldn't keep a lid on. She couldn't hide. Yeah. So there's something about, I think, loss of control, which I guess, yeah, embarrassment is king of that, isn't it? There is so much for us to get into on this topic.

8:41Kimberley Wilson:So let's get into the complexity.

8:49All right.

8:50Kimberley Wilson:So where does embarrassment begin? Where does it start? Because we're not born embarrassed. No. Quite the opposite often, like little children. Oh, yeah. Up, dancing, singing. Having a great time. Having a great time. It's really sad, isn't it? Because it's society. That's what it does to us. And like we were saying before, the kind of rules around what's appropriate and what isn't, what's a violation of a rule and what isn't, is very specific and kind of encoded to the society, to the community. in which we brought up. To that point in time, you know, there would have been a point in time in British society where a woman showing her ankles was a cause of embarrassment and shame.

9:41Kimberley Wilson:This is very true. Yeah. And I think there are definitely stages of our lives where we are much more prone to feeling embarrassment. And then the kind of rules around, you know, the community that we're specifically in at that point I'm thinking of teenagers are highly particular so you couldn't be seen with your parent whereas in your 40s or 50s who cares if you're seen with your parent but also it can be really arbitrary I certainly remember like these tiny little social cues that had this outsize meaning. Outsize is absolutely the word, isn't it? Because in our brains, what happens to our social standing when something like that, when a glitch like that is apparent, is phenomenal.

10:34So I think it's very person-specific and very kind of time of their life specific and very kind of environment-specific.

10:43Kimberley Wilson:of that situation for sure but when you say it's person specific that's also interesting isn't it because there are some people who will cringe and withdraw and disappear at a tiny thing you know I don't know using the wrong cutlery or something right versus people who just feel or appear to be completely innocuous to embarrassment yeah I know that is fascinating that must be a kind of complex mix of probably some genetics is in there. Some people are constitutionally just a bit more sensitive to the environment. They're much more sensitive to various sensations, what we call proprioception or interoception, the feeling of their body in space.

11:27Kimberley Wilson:And we know that those internal sensations really send strong messages to the brain. That's true. And those people may also be more kind of hypervigilant in the environment they find themselves so what family were you born into what were the rules around etiquette and being polite and you know being socially acceptable um what kind of school did you go to what community did you grow up in which country did you grow up in you know it goes on and on doesn't it layer upon layer of what we're calling these kind of social norms these expectations these rules about standing out versus falling in line, being part of the crowd, the community, you know, the group.

12:11The group. And this is what, it comes back to this idea of it being ultimately a survival mechanism. It is about keeping safe and making sure that the group doesn't reject you and making sure that you get what you need from the group.

12:26Kimberley Wilson:But I feel like there's an ironic effect in there because if you do something embarrassing, right, if you are a model walking on the catwalk and you fall over, there's a difference to the way the audience responds to someone who, you know, goes, oh my God, that's so embarrassing. Oh my God, I can't believe this is someone who goes. Yeah. And I often feel like actually we respond better to people who acknowledge it. The ironic effect is if we accept it in ourselves, other people accept it as well. Agreed. But I think there is something about how we show that what just happened to us, as you say, we've accepted it or we haven't accepted it, but we're kind of clocking them and going, oh, that was embarrassing, wasn't it?

13:15And it puts people at their ease. Yes.

13:17Kimberley Wilson:It's almost as if, if I can accept it in me, then implicitly I'm saying I can accept it in you with kindness and compassion. If I see you fall over, I'm not going to point and laugh. I'm going to go, oh, you too. And that there's a safety in that. Agreed. I'm not assuming that there's a hierarchy between us. Yeah, and that's it. And we can get rid of that sort of brittleness where everyone's a bit sort of uncomfortable around each other. But if it's okay for us all to mess up, then perhaps this society can feel safer. And actually, kind of contrary to popular belief, the research tells us that the people who are more easily embarrassed are actually seen as more likable.

14:12Kimberley Wilson:And maybe that touches on what you were talking about in terms of social signals. Yeah, I think it's right. I think it sort of makes us all more equal, makes us all more equally fallible and puts people at their ease. And I think generally makes for a kind of happier society. and there's different research that also shows that people who are embarrassed very easily do have more pro-social tendencies and I wonder I always wonder whether that's a cause or effect it's kind of like am I pro-social and it shows in my face or because it shows in my face I can't get away with anything so I have to be pro-social yeah I've got no choice my face will give me away Yes.

14:59But then you are generally a more probably approachable person if your face is saying it all. Less threatening, less able to lie in quite the same convincing way. And therefore, yeah, feels like a safer bet if we're going to sort of form a connection. um the other thing i was thinking about was cringe on behalf of others because if i feel embarrassed for myself then maybe if something terrible happens to you and you fall over i'm very likely to feel pretty awful for you and i won't run away i'll come and help you so perhaps there's a kind of another deeper social function to embarrassment in terms of protecting each other at a more at a wider level.

15:49Kimberley Wilson:Yes. I wonder whether that might backfire, right? So let's say you fall over. We don't know each other. You fall over in the street and I go, oh my God, that must be so embarrassing for you. Oh, oh, are you okay? Like, do I make it worse? But if you went, oh, that must feel embarrassing. I'm going to go and sort of subtly help her up and hand her her shoes that I've fallen off. subtle assistance nothing to see here people okay you're right it would be horrendous if if someone had that like because you're already feeling awful yes oh that must feel terrible because i think that plays in to the spotlight effect where we really believe that other people are thinking about us as much as we are thinking about us and i mean we see this in the research you know in studies where they've made people wear an embarrassing t-shirt and walk into a room.

16:44Kimberley Wilson:People have estimated about 50 % of people will notice and they'll judge me. And then actually, when they ask the people in the room, 20, 25 % of them notice. So we really have this egocentric, we call it in psychology, focus on ourselves. We really do. And that's interesting when you think about things like frontal lobe development because of course in our younger years we don't have that capacity to kind of think about ourselves as other people would and to situate ourselves in a group in a room in a community and sort of see ourselves from the outside yes well i mean in very early life the toddlers actually don't see themselves as separate from other people and then it's about developing theory of mind, which is the understanding that other people have different minds to you.

17:34Kimberley Wilson:And it's at that point that you can start to think, what are people thinking of me? And the self-consciousness comes in. Yes, exactly. And then that gets more and more acute as you get into the teen years. And I think what's sad about the teen years is that there isn't the capacity, the sort of executive function yet to go, but calm down, because as you said, 25 % of these people only will, and probably not even that, will notice the t-shirt or the socks worn wrong or whatever it is. So you're kind of at your most vulnerable because of that, I guess. It is also really important to highlight that embarrassment can hold us back.

18:11Kimberley Wilson:So not just braving the stage to be the singer we always wanted to be, but also that embarrassment can stop us from seeking medical advice. A survey from the charity Young Minds found that 33 % of young people suffering from mental health issues felt too embarrassed to seek support. And I suppose this is where it really highlights the association with shame as a self-conscious emotion and why that's the kind of the serious side of embarrassment, isn't it? So I guess we should probably say that embarrassment does serve a function up to a point, but taken too far or felt too much, it can actually end up damaging us or impeding our capacity to do the things we want to do.

19:09Kimberley Wilson:If we assume that embarrassment is basically universal, we all experience it, we all feel it, but we do have different responses to it. And if we were looking at a scale, we might have at one end the kind of person who kind of disappears from social life after an embarrassing event. And then at the other end, you've got people who, even if it was the same scenario, just kind of push on through. And so I think a lot of people listening will be thinking, well, how can I be more like that second group? Do you have any ideas about what might help us to manage our embarrassment? I think, and it's going to sound a bit flippant maybe, but I think we need to learn not to take ourselves too seriously.

19:59Because there are these points in our development where we can't help but be the centre, as you say. And we obviously can never shed our subjectivity fully. but I think we can get better at kind of centering other people a bit more and not in the way of what do they think of me but what is their experience how are they feeling what are they thinking we'll discover that it's probably not anything to do with us for a start but also it shifts our focus away from this very kind of internal gaze which I don't think does us a lot of good.

20:37Kimberley Wilson:I always feel like a good place to start, well, talking personally, if I've done something embarrassing, is to tell myself, I'm not the first person this has ever happened to. You know, if I have to go to the doctor for something, or if I have to, just little things like having to take something back to the shop because it doesn't fit right, you just think, oh God, that's why I should have known. You're not the first person that this person's ever encountered that has this issue. The point about that isn't to dismiss the way that you're feeling, it's to contextualise it. It's to say what you are feeling right now is part of the human condition.

21:15Kimberley Wilson:Right. Which is quite a fun thought in itself, isn't it? So this thing that could have made us feel so isolated and like you say, want to tuck away and hide, actually could be quite a connecting device. like oh god guess what happened to me you'll never guess and then have a conversation with somebody who will then undoubtedly say oh wait until you hear this then honestly and then you're bonded yes yes and again it's that i fall over you fall over we're all gonna fall over it's all fine and i love those threads actually one of the things that social media is really good at is normalizing your embarrassing experiences and you see people say well this is a thing that happened to me and then you have 400 people underneath saying well this happened to me this is exactly the same thing and you know this is what we talk about in therapy when we suggest things like going to a group it's kind of like you need to be around people who have had a similar experience to you so that you can release and unburden yourself of some of the shame that you might be feeling thinking that you are uniquely frail or damaged in some way because of this thing.

22:27Yeah, because it's funny, isn't it? How if embarrassment is meant to kind of bring us back into the fold or make us feel conscious of being outside of it for too long, these points that you're saying here make you realise how joyful it is to be welcomed back in and that probably that's the more likely outcome of any embarrassing or sort of perceived to be embarrassing experience in our lives. So, you know, going to the GP and saying, I'm really embarrassed about this, but I need to ask you, blah, blah, blah. And having them listen with compassion, understand and genuinely kind of transmit the sense that they have seen it all before.

23:11That's what we need.

23:13Kimberley Wilson:We really do. Yeah. But I also think there's something about timelines isn't there I can think about you know embarrassing things I did in school and think oh but I I survived that one true I survived it and I'm here yeah and and stronger because of it maybe maybe or maybe it actually on reflection and with growth and with time wasn't as important or as formative as I thought it would be so can I give myself a little bit of grace that maybe this embarrassing thing might fall into that category too in a short while. Yeah. And I do think there's something about the importance of building our resilience to these moments.

23:55Because if we're saying that shame and embarrassment can stop us, then resilience and feeling like we can cope with lots of things can really help us. So because you're feeling it, walk towards it. I really encourage people a cringe a day. Do it. Run towards it. See what happens.

24:17Kimberley Wilson:Jennifer's prescription, everybody. That's my prescription. A cringe a day. A cringe a day because I think so much of society is trying to hold us back and keep us in little boxes. Screw that. Let's go towards it. Let's see what happens when we do. Okay, wonderful. And what I love about a conversation like this is that I think sometimes with a feeling like embarrassment and I've literally had people say how do I stop feeling it how do I get rid of it and what we're saying is that may or may not be possible but we can stop it from stopping us asking that person out on a date applying for that job.

25:00Kimberley Wilson:Being able to say, well, I can feel embarrassment, but it doesn't mean I have to stop. It's so empowering. Yes. Feel the feeling and do it anyway. That is a great thought.

25:16Kimberley Wilson:Oh, thank you, Jennifer. It has been a pleasure as always. Thank you so much for having me. and thank you to everyone listening as you know i am on a mission to clear up the mental health space so please let me know what you want me to talk about email us your stories in a paragraph to complex at bbc.co.uk please note that i can't answer you personally so if you have a concern about a medical or mental health issue then please please do seek expert help and if you want details of further support with some of the issues raised in the podcast you can find them at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line.