How to set boundaries

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1:00Kimberley Wilson:Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a counseling psychologist and this is Complex. The psychology podcast that helps you to stock up your spice rack of information and advice about our mental health. In today's episode, I'm delighted to be exploring how to set boundaries. Now, boundaries are something that we hear about all the time. Sometimes they are obvious, you know, your boss shouldn't be kissing you and you shouldn't wear your outdoor shoes inside in Japan. But sometimes they're not so obvious and that can be really confusing.

1:52Kimberley Wilson:But what we do know about boundaries is that when they are crossed, they can bring up a lot of strong and often conflicting feelings. But I'll let you into a little secret. It is possible to learn how to recognise and set boundaries clearly and calmly. It just takes a little bit of knowledge and a touch of practice. As usual, I'm inviting an expert guest to help me pick the topic apart and we'll also hear a listener's dilemma. So, a fantastic topic for us as the spring sunshine pokes its way out of the clouds. Let me be your guide from the weed-ridden path of misinformation to the tulip bed of understanding.

2:40Kimberley Wilson:and I am so delighted that my guest today is Dr Fatimata Jatta hello hi Kimberly hello and we have been lucky enough to have you on the podcast a couple of times before but please do remind us of what you do I'm a clinical psychologist I am the clinical lead for a crisis service in West London and also have my own private practice as well. Lovely, thank you. That is really helpful and it sounds like you're going to be the perfect person for us to dive into this topic with. So I'm seeing so, so, so many people on social media talking about their boundaries, their boundaries being crossed, setting boundaries, asserting their boundaries and as happens a lot, what used to be a psychological term is now very very much mainstream but I often see it misused too many times as well so let's kick off with a definition and get some clarity on this Fatima what is a boundary?

3:46In psychology a boundary really is a personal limit that is used to foster health and well-being. And I say personal because boundaries have to be personal. We are social creatures. So by very nature, our boundaries are intertwined because our survival depends on each other.

4:10Kimberley Wilson:Yeah, and I think we can see boundaries play out in different aspects of our lives, in the workplace, in the social world. But for the sake of this episode, we're going to be focusing on relationship boundaries. So whether that's with a partner or a friend or a family member. Yeah, it's a massive topic. So I think it makes sense that we're narrowing it down, even though I'm sure people are already thinking about different ways that it relates to them specifically. Now, as always, we are so, so grateful for everyone who gets in touch. Your questions and your experiences are what anchors this podcast and gives it life.

4:48Kimberley Wilson:So thank you very, very much. And please do keep your emails coming. Today's story comes from someone I'm going to call Ingrid to protect her identity. And Fatimata, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Ingrid says, Hi, Complex team. I'm a regular listener and really appreciate the way you approach complex emotional and relational topics with depth and compassion. Thank you very much, Ingrid. Then she says,

5:40Kimberley Wilson:I express discomfort, it often becomes a point of conflict between my husband and me. So Ingrid, thank you very, very much for getting in touch. And I am certain that many listeners will be able to resonate with your experience of struggling with blurred family boundaries. Fatimata, what do you think about Ingrid's experiences? Yeah, I think she's in a tough spot because she's trying to be a good wife a good mother a good daughter-in-law and then of course there's herself and it's managing all of that together which makes it difficult and I think humans the big problem we have is that we struggle to hold multiple truths at once and that's because we go into black and white thinking so I think that's where I would be helping her lean towards first of all like holding all of those different truths at once and then again from there deciding what's best for her and her family.

6:43Kimberley Wilson:Yes and as you're starting to touch on it's a very nuanced topic so let's get into the complexity.

6:54Kimberley Wilson:So you've described a boundary as this kind of personal limit but how common is it for people to struggle with setting those limits for setting their own boundaries? I think it's very common and that might surprise some people because I think you know you look at some people and you see assertiveness or confidence and then you think what do you mean? But I think what it is is that people generally have areas in which they are able to set good boundaries and then other areas where they might struggle. What we're talking about here is line versus limit. So I put a line in the sand and I communicate what that line is so that I don't hit my limit, don't become overwhelmed.

7:37And so the two people, both of us know that if that line is crossed, what I'm going to do.

7:43Kimberley Wilson:So for example, if my mother-in-law keeps trying to put food on my plate when I've told her I don't want anymore. She knows that once I've said no twice, I will leave the room. And that protects me from getting angry and her from getting shouted at. And research shows that when people suppress their needs, when they don't put that line in the sand, it does lead to frustration and resentment in their relationships. Yeah, I think boundaries is so important for a healthy society. I mean, now we're much more individualistic and we talk about sort of being able to say no to your mother in law. Traditionally, you know, this wasn't even sort of an option in many ways.

8:25But I think in order to have a healthy society where people are being treated fairly, without resentment, without violence, even people have to be able to kind of look inward and be able to say, like, this is where my limit is. I want to give this freely. So I give it freely, whether it's labor, love, support, and I can't or don't want to give this freely. And that's therefore how we can show up to the best of our ability as sort of healthily as possible. I think that sort of unrecognized resentment is highly dangerous.

9:02Kimberley Wilson:It's so toxic and it just distorts everything. But also I think when we start thinking about boundaries and setting them down, I think people often get a bit stuck thinking, oh, but it's too rigid or it's going to be too fixed. And it's kind of worth people knowing that boundaries will and do and should shift over time. You know, the boundary you have with someone when you're dating is different to the personal boundary you'll have with them seven years into marriage. You know, that it shifts as you get to know the other person and you get to learn and as you get older. So the boundary you have today doesn't have to be the boundary you have tomorrow.

9:35Kimberley Wilson:Absolutely. If anything, that's a really important element of being able to sort of set proper boundaries is you have to be flexible, you know. So you're actually building psychological flexibility, the ability to respond to situations in real time and decide for yourself. And in a sense, no one can really decide for you to be psychologically flexible. You have to be able to say yes and no. And actually, there are some people whose default is to always ask or to always say no. and that can equally come from an unhealthy place, a place of being hurt, being traumatized or making a rule for yourself that my boundaries will never be, you know, crossed ever again or if I don't set boundaries first then others will do it to me so I must be the initiator.

10:29There's lots of ways where that can play out in very unhealthily as well which is problematic because that's when you're not flexible.

10:38Kimberley Wilson:And I think one of the reasons that we really struggle with setting boundaries is partly about personal permission. Am I allowed to set a boundary? But also about fear about the reaction in the other person, fear of retaliation or a negative response. Oh, I'm getting excited with this because this is so important. Absolutely, that is it. Boundary setting is uncomfortable by very definition. and one of the biggest mistakes people make is they go I set a boundary and the other person wasn't happy with me and they're now upset I did it wrong I've messed up and it's like no that's what setting a boundary is the other person is pushing and you hold a line and that is uncomfortable and that's why it's difficult to set a boundary so for example you ask your children to brush their teeth, of course, they're going to complain about it to begin with.

11:31And if you're going to be a good parent, you can't be like, oh, my children are crying and I can't now ask them to brush their teeth. You have to be able to hold that discomfort. And over time, they adapt. You have to be willing to accept the discomfort to set your limit.

11:50Kimberley Wilson:There's a few little pieces to this, aren't there? There's the recognition of what your line is and what your limit is. the communication of that to the other person or parties but then also the distress tolerance of being able to bear a setting it but also potential pushing back against your boundary that might come and to accept that it might go different ways you know sometimes a person might respect your boundaries and that's what you hopefully want but if someone's felt entitled to a lot more in the past than you're now willing to give, then they're going to respond to that change. Yeah, absolutely.

12:29You have to accept that they're not changing. You're the one that's changed. And therefore, in a sense, it's also taking on that responsibility for yourself. I think another mistake that people make that's very common is we give the responsibility for our boundaries to other people. You know, so you shouldn't ask me to do this. The person is entitled to ask. Your mother-in-law is entitled to want to be involved with your kids. She's not necessarily doing anything wrong by doing that. But you are also equally entitled to say no. And you're not doing anything wrong by setting that limit for yourself.

13:11Rather than what somebody might say is like, She shouldn't ask me. She shouldn't put me in this position, which is where the resentment builds up.

13:19Kimberley Wilson:I think that's a really good one. You know, I understand what my boundary is. Why can't you interpret or intuit what my boundary ought to be? And actually, first of all, other people aren't mind readers. They can't tell what you want. But also it's your responsibility to let people know how you will accept being treated. And that sounds kind of hard, but it's absolutely true. We're not built the same. We haven't gone through the same education. Mother-in-law and wife, they're different generations. They have different ways of seeing the world because of how they've gone through the world. So expecting your mother-in-law to sort of like live by the same rules that you live by, it's not fair in a sense, or it's unrealistic.

14:07Kimberley Wilson:Are there any particular individuals or groups of people that might struggle more with setting boundaries than others? Do you know? I think yes is the answer but again in different ways if I'm speaking to let's say women you know you have that discussion around we have been socialized to be very nice and to be very accommodating and femininity is couched in you know sort of submission exactly and and so that does make it harder in many instances to set boundaries and certainly if you're a minority group, you're a group that has been discriminated against, you are going to struggle with setting boundaries because again, it's that sense of entitlement to them, to setting personal limits.

15:01Kimberley Wilson:So on the flip side, so we've been thinking about people who struggle to set boundaries, but then there are people who at least use the term boundary to control other people or to make demands of them. And I guess what I see people struggle with in the therapy room is what they've been told are boundaries. But as I'm listening to it, it's actually, no, I'm concerned that you're in a coercive controlling relationship. They might say, oh, my partner has told me that I'm not allowed to wear this because that crosses his boundary of what he thinks is acceptable. Or I'm not allowed to hang out with my friends after 10pm because that crosses his boundary of what he thinks a girlfriend should be.

15:44Kimberley Wilson:I think it's really important for listeners to hear and to know that a boundary is about how an individual will respond, how they keep themselves in a safe, healthy, emotional space. It's not a demand or a command. Yes, absolutely. It's about having agency over your own life as a human being. We might choose to take on somebody else's imposition, let's say someone might say I won't wear that because my partner doesn't like it which would be okay as long as you know you have the option to say no and you choose to say yes rather than it hasn't even occurred to you that you can say no or it has occurred to you but you can't say no because that imposition is actually coming with negative consequences.

16:40Kimberley Wilson:And you were talking there about how someone can kind of give up a little aspect of their autonomy in trying to meet somebody else's needs. And it makes me think of how Ingrid describes her husband as saying he just wants to make his mother happy. And Ingrid is kind of caught in the crosshairs now between someone who feels quite happy to kind of allow this line to be crossed versus Ingrid who's trying to instigate and create new boundaries with her new family? So many layers to it. I think we all choose to give up our a bit of our autonomy all of the time in a sense, right? So mothers give up the autonomy all the time freely.

17:24But again, is it coming from choice? And is it kind of in a healthy way? Women, other people pleasers, let's say. But also they are often expected to set boundaries and are punished for not doing so. But here I actually think Ingrid and her husband are married and she's asking something of his mother and he really should be kind of stepping in to support his wife because actually we could make it about the mother-in-law that she's pushing boundaries. But like I said, people are entitled to ask. We don't know much about the mother-in-law or what she's asked for, etc. But it doesn't really matter.

18:12It's bothering Ingrid. She should be able to speak to her husband and have the two of them come up with a solution that protects their dynamic whilst respecting the mother as well.

18:26Kimberley Wilson:It certainly feels like there's a conversation to be had between Ingrid and her husband because we were talking about how if your boundaries aren't respected or they're not clear that that can lead to frustration and resentment and this seems to be what she's hinting at. Yeah, you know, it's not immediately obvious what the solution is without actually going into further detail and unpacking it with Ingrid. But one angle is definitely that she could speak to her husband and ask him to support her in saying no. So that could be part of setting a boundary is saying like, look, I don't blame you.

19:00You might have different boundaries to me around this, but this is the reason for mine. And can you help me with this? that's one angle another is to the mother-in-law just Ingrid being able to sort of say no I can't let's say its mother-in-law comes around on a Sunday morning at 8am and wants to spend the whole day with them and Ingrid is like I just want family time with my husband and my kid can you just like respect that so it might be that she says okay you can come but can you leave it too or we are going to have to leave it too so they actually take control over that it kind of takes strategy and it takes people giving it time as well because people will push our boundaries and it's our job to hold on to them and over time we change the status quo the emphasis is really on

19:59Kimberley Wilson:also holding that line isn't it if you don't hold the line that you've established then actually you haven't set a boundary, you've kind of just expressed a hope, a kind of wish. Because I think often people will say, well, I told them what I wanted. Yes. And then what happened when they crossed the line? Oh, it was just too much hassle and I didn't do anything. That wasn't a boundary. And so there is, again, a little bit of responsibility on the individual.

20:28Kimberley Wilson:Usually at this point, we'd think about a scale, but I think almost we've kind of gone through the entire spectrum of what it would look like. You know, at one end, the person that has no boundaries and feels they're being walked over and is very frustrated. And then you were describing the very, very rigid person at the other end who actually doesn't have any flexibility. And I wonder if what you're describing as healthy boundaries is this kind of flexible approach to actually, this is my boundary with this person. This is my boundary in this realm. this is where things might shift. Yeah I think the flexibility is so key and the self-awareness giving yourself permission because if you give yourself permission to ask and to say no then it means you give others permission to ask and to say no which is how we can all live in a healthy society where you can ask of others and you can relax into knowing that they will say yes if they want to and they will say no if they don't want to.

21:30Kimberley Wilson:Yes, the fact that I've asked isn't a demand, it's not an imposition. You have the right to say no and I will respect your no. Yeah. But also don't say yes if you don't really mean yes. Yes. A resentful yes hurts everyone. Yeah. And it's because we're talking in the personal realm, I want people who are listening to understand that because when you move into the systemic larger scale then it becomes harder. Some people in society are given more permission to say yes and no. And that is an important thing for us to recognize because somebody, you know, might be listening and going, well, that's easier said than done.

22:04You're not making any allowances for the fact that I've tried to say no and people just didn't listen to me. But this is the thing about human beings. I think we come with so many different layers and we are taught so many different things and so it can get really messy.

22:28Kimberley Wilson:So for everyone listening to this and thinking yes that's all well and good I know what a boundary is thank you very much how do I set a healthy boundary? Fatimata where do we begin? Different layers. Say the first one is knowing that you can. You are allowed to say yes and you're allowed to say no. And just because I get upset if you say no doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. And I think that's what healthy boundary setting is really about and healthy communication of boundaries as well. Being respectful of where you come from, but equally being respectful of where the other person or people come from.

23:12Kimberley Wilson:Okay, so knowing that you can, having sufficient self-respect to be able to state it while at the same time having sufficient respect for the other person to know that they're going to have a response to it and then also that you're not necessarily responsible for their emotional response, that they're allowed to react as they react. Yeah, it is important to sort of think ahead a little bit at what you can expect and managing your own expectations. Maybe talking it through with somebody else, right? Maybe saying to a friend or a trusted other person. I think getting that outside perspective is really, really important.

23:50And I think you can even take it a step further. Certainly in therapy, we do, we even role play. So I might be mother-in-law and you're Ingrid and we practice how Ingrid would have that conversation and then I might give her tips and then we turn it around. And I think getting Ingrid to play mother-in-law is really important because then she can empathize and sort of have a better understanding of where her mother-in-law is coming from. And that makes you more flexible because you're understanding the other person. And perhaps more skilled in the interaction. Exactly. I always ask people to think about a person in their life that they think is very good at setting boundaries.

24:27One of my best friends, when you go to her house, at some point she'll just be like, okay, it's time for people to leave. And so I try to be more like that, because actually, that does feel good. It just means that you can trust the other person and it feels genuine, it's authentic. you know asking people to think about what it's like to be on the other side is really important because we usually tell ourselves if I set a boundary people won't like it they'll be upset and therefore we don't they might be upset for a bit but actually in the long term they're going

25:02Kimberley Wilson:to appreciate it the lovely thing about someone with healthy boundaries is you absolutely know where you stand and that sense of security gives you a sense of internal safety. Yeah absolutely. And earlier on we were thinking about controlling behaviours so what can we do if we're struggling with other people's so-called boundaries that are too rigid or even controlling? Too rigid is one category and then even controlling you know makes it a little bit more challenging because here you put yourself at risk not just of emotional discomfort but also of actual safety you know. I think a first step in some instances is always understanding how you can make healthy communication and I always say to people you have to remember that healthy communication maximizes your chances of getting what you want but it doesn't guarantee them and at that stage you have another decision to make, which is do you keep going or do you realize that this person or these people or this situation isn't going to be respectful of me in the way that I want and so therefore I have to leave.