How to spot a 'red flag'

10:46Kimberley Wilson:and what other red flags might there be at the beginning so i would say trying to take up a lot

10:51Zoe Ross:of your time so that might be like incessant messaging so there's lots and lots of messages about the saturday night date and there's lots of trying to take up your day so maybe you have the date on Saturday, they also want to see you on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday as well. And they're wondering where you are and who you're going out with and, you know, all these kinds of things. It's too much too soon. There's an intensity to it. Whereas in a healthier relationship, it grows steadily. And it's based on lots of small interactions. That's how trust grows generally.

11:26Kimberley Wilson:As you say that, though, I'm thinking about people who might consider that slow and steady as dull. Absolutely. You know, that actually the thing about a new relationship is that it's intense, is that it's dramatic. You know, that is the big romantic sweeping gesture. I do want them to propose on the fourth date or, you know, something like that.

11:51Zoe Ross:Yeah, absolutely. And I'm thinking of people that I know who will say things like, I want to be swept off my feet. and I think oh okay well that's maybe not a great idea why well because you don't know that person right we get to know people over time and that's an inconvenient truth in that it takes time to get to know somebody it takes time to get to know how they respond under stress this is like a really important decision especially if it's a romantic partner this is someone you're going to share your life with whereas if you're being swept off your feet then your attachment system is getting attached to somebody very quickly an idea of somebody because as you're saying you don't know

12:36Kimberley Wilson:them yeah actually maybe what i'm investing in is my fantasy of what a big romantic relationship

12:45Zoe Ross:looks like exactly and we're sold that from a young age aren't we you know disney and films and Hollywood and music and, you know, that somebody amazing is going to come along who's completely perfect and they're going to sweep us off our feet and that's going to be it.

12:58Kimberley Wilson:So there's something really important about understanding that consistent, kind, thoughtful are really good indicators of healthy relationships. So what is normal concern? and what is actually an indication of overstepping the mark and being too intense?

13:23Zoe Ross:That's a really important distinction because we all want someone to care for us and we want to care for the other two but again it's back to how quickly that happens so if it's happening very quickly when we're not actually in a relationship with them fully and it's not committed but they're suddenly wanting to be in contact and know who we're with and that's that's too much too soon and it also comes back to being able to raise it you know I'm noticing that you want to be in contact a lot and sometimes I'm really busy and I can't message you back and seeing how they respond and observing how that happened and people who are healthier will be able to say oh I'm sorry I just get a bit anxious sometimes and and you can work it out together right again it might be a little bit messy but you can work out okay well what would that look like for you and you can negotiate if you like and they can take some responsibility and they can manage themselves so that they don't carry on that behavior whereas somebody who is less healthy possibly turning into sort of red flag abusive territory will deflect will defend their behavior will be saying it's only because i care about you what's wrong with you why can't you it'll all become about you being the problem so less negotiation and more them trying to persuade you exactly of their point of view exactly and not respecting your boundaries or your desire for space or less communication they won't listen to that they'll just carry on with what they think they want to

14:52Kimberley Wilson:do and that's really dangerous that's really helpful so too much too soon whether you feel like you can raise the issue yeah whether there's space for each party to take responsibility in the negotiation about the impact of this behavior versus feeling as though you're just being persuaded to see it from one person's perspective.

15:13Zoe Ross:Exactly, exactly. And there's no change. There's no attempt to change or an attempt to change is very short-lived. So they might do it for a day and then they're back to just carrying on.

15:24Kimberley Wilson:And also on that, imagine you're all out with friends and they've just met your new person, the person you're dating for the first time. and someone you love pulls you aside and says, I'm not sure, that's important data to kind of take on board as well.

15:39Zoe Ross:It really is because often our friends see things before we do. So they might be observing some behaviours in how they're interacting with either the friend group or with you that they can observe and notice. And it is good data. And it's not to say that you have to do anything with it at all. That's obviously your choice. But if you keep getting that same information from other people and you're noticing things as well, then that's starting to become a pattern. And it's usually better to, you know, to get out sooner rather than later. It's harder if we stay longer.

16:16Kimberley Wilson:Yes. And especially because if we are thinking about more harmful, more abusive relationships, then that separation from friends and family is a key concern as well.

16:27Zoe Ross:It really is. You know, abusers will always try to isolate you from your friends and family. So they will not like your friends. So-and-so isn't good for you. Exactly. We'll be discouraging you from spending time with them. Now, sometimes we don't like our partner's friends. Okay. Sometimes we don't, but we can respect that they still want to see them. But it's more about they're trying to get you away from them, from your family and friends and monopolize your time. so that they become your sole source of support and attachment and relationship. And that's not healthy for any of us. It's an incredibly vulnerable position.

17:06Zoe Ross:It really is. And often people who are vulnerable are more susceptible to that.

17:12Kimberley Wilson:Yes.

17:12Zoe Ross:To the love bombing, to the meeting this person that they think is fantastic.

17:18Kimberley Wilson:Absolutely. If I have spent large parts of my life feeling unwanted or feeling like I'm never chosen, no one's going to pick me, then to have someone come in who kind of at least gives me the feeling that I'm number one and I'm special. And actually, if I just slightly adjust the way I am a little bit, then I can be this person's favourite person. Exactly.

17:41Zoe Ross:And that's something that, you know, we see a lot, don't we, in clinical practice, which is really difficult. we're very vulnerable to somebody coming along and behaving in these ways that we think oh wow this is why this is the answer to all my problems exactly absolutely and so these behaviors that

18:01Kimberley Wilson:we've outlined the isolating the monitoring the intensity the love bombing how reliable are they as predictors of harm or abuse further down the line into the relationship

18:16Zoe Ross:you know having these behaviors doesn't mean that you are automatically going to end up in an abusive relationship but there is a predictable pattern if they all exist and people who are very abusive will follow that predictable pattern so there's a cycle so the love bombing starts and it's very intense very quickly and this is our new fantastic partner who we've now moved in with and you know we're already engaged and maybe people around us are starting to wonder if this is all moving a little bit too quickly yes but we're not listening right because it's still so heady and it's amazing exciting exactly it's what we've been waiting for all our lives and then the isolation starts because maybe our friends and family don't approve and we're forced to choose between one or the other and we're choosing our new partner who's promising us all these wonderful things and then the sort of cycle maybe starts there's little things that start to come in so the intermittent reinforcement okay might start so that's when they're kind of hot

19:21Kimberley Wilson:and cold exactly you know one day you're the best thing that ever happened to the the next day you just need to try harder and you're such a disappointment exactly and the push pull behavior

19:33Zoe Ross:you know in out hot cold and that puts us into a real state of anxiety and and it's very confusing for our nervous system but it also creates this kind of addictive cycle that's exactly it's the

19:48Kimberley Wilson:kind of it's literally the kind of psychology or the behavioral economics behind slot machines sometimes you win sometimes you lose but you're still you're driving towards that next win because if I just keep going I'll get that heady wonderful intense feeling absolutely and you're wondering

20:05Zoe Ross:where the person that you first met who you think is the real person you're wondering where they've gone and you're probably told that you just need to do x y and z and it's your fault so it becomes a really toxic cycle where you're obsessed usually you'll find it hard to function you're maybe just thinking all the time about your relationship and what you need to do in this relationship to make it all okay again. So your relationship or keeping that person happy becomes the project. Exactly. And you start to walk on eggshells because you know that there are certain behaviors that are not okay.

20:41Zoe Ross:And you know that there are ways that they can be happier. So you start to shrink yourself. You start to appease. You start to submit because you're scared of the consequences of what happens if you take up more space say what you think you know and have your emotions and that's when it starts to become very damaging for us psychologically because our nervous system our attachment system our sense of self really start to be impacted thank you it's really important for people to hear unfortunately there are very abusive people who know what they're doing and they repeat this cycle sometimes it's done unconsciously and it's to do with their own issues and their own attachment patterns and all the rest of it but it's what we all need to look out for especially if we're going out into the dating world and we're trying to meet a new partner that way

21:42Kimberley Wilson:now so if we were to put red and green flags on a scale so green to red and i guess we would move through amber in there in the middle what would that look like let's start let's start at the

21:57Zoe Ross:green end what are we thinking about well we could start with like conflict for example so So in a green flag, it's a pattern of relating means that we can happily raise things with someone. We know that we can raise something even though it's difficult and it will be listened to with respect and it will be worked through on both sides.

22:19Kimberley Wilson:Yes. And the thing that psychologists always want people to hear is that a good relationship isn't one that is free of conflict or free of disagreement. It is one where we can disagree because we are two people with different minds and histories and experiences, but we can disagree respectfully and we can repair.

22:39Zoe Ross:Repair, repair is so important. And we can all get better at repair. There's lovely resources that we can use to get better at doing that and improve our conflict skills. So that's very, very important to recognize, I think. whereas if we take that up through the amber flags it may be that we start to not be sure if we can raise things not be sure how things are going to be received so sometimes somebody might be a bit defensive and a bit harsh well okay but afterwards can they calm things down and is there a pattern of trying to change that so they are recognizing that actually their conflict behavior is not that great and they go into you know maybe a very protective fight part of them comes forward and they can be a little bit harsh in how they respond but they are actively trying to change that so that might look like they're going to therapy they're reading books they're you can see effort in trying to change that and then if we take that then through to red flag there's no accountability conflict escalates very very quickly from a simple discussion into something in which you're actively scared yes because that means you're then going to stop raising things because you're worried about what might happen and you're trying to appease the other person and it becomes all about them and obviously if there's any kind of violence there's any kind of situation where you are actively scared that is a huge red flag and you really need to take some

24:18Kimberley Wilson:action fairly quickly thank you Zoe if you're listening and you're recognizing that this might be a pattern of behavior that you or someone you care about is experiencing then please know that it's not okay and I urge you to seek professional support please don't struggle alone there are specialist organisations that can give you advice and you can find some sources of support in the show notes on BBC Sounds. Also please be aware that Clare's Law, officially known as the Domestic Abuse Disclosure Scheme, gives you the right to ask the police if your current or ex-partner has any previous history of violence or abuse if you're concerned you might be at risk in the future.

25:06Kimberley Wilson:so for everyone listening who might be starting perhaps to notice some red flags in their relationships or even in their friends relationships Zoe where do you suggest they

25:18Zoe Ross:might start what can they do so if they're recognizing them in their own relationships then absolutely getting some help so from a therapist and a place where you can talk them through is going to be really important because the brain has a negativity bias. So sometimes our attachment patterns can start to show up in relationships and we can start to really focus on the stuff that doesn't seem so great and we actually miss out a load of the green flags. So there's a real nuance to this and it can be really helpful to get some outside help to lay it all on the table and get some perspective on it.

25:59Zoe Ross:And depending on the relationship you have, again, without wanting to be alarmist, if you've been with someone for a long time and you want to leave, then you do need to get some support around you to make sure that you can do that safely. And what about if a listener is worried about a friend? If you see the flags in your friends, then you can respectfully raise it with them and try to have an open conversation with them about what you're noticing but bearing in mind they may not be open to that and it may just be about supporting your friend and being there for them rather than actually trying to actively get them out of that relationship yes and I think

26:44Kimberley Wilson:and certainly my experience it has been that noticing and letting them know that you've noticed exactly is really important even if they're not ready to act absolutely make any change but letting them know exactly what you're describing you seem quieter or more distant or less available and I don't know what's going on but I love you and I hope you're safe and if anything is going on you can come to me so that it doesn't feel perhaps too exposing too humiliating too intrusive but they absolutely know that they're not alone exactly that's really important

27:22Zoe Ross:um but on the flip side healthy relationships and good relationships really do enhance our lives and it should be a really fun time of going out and meeting new people but we do just need to keep our wits about us and be aware of our own patterns in relationships if we need to change those for example if we can take things a little bit slower maybe than we used to before that can be really healthy if we're somebody that rushes into things but equally we definitely want to encourage people to have good relationships and not be isolated and if you've come out of a difficult relationship you absolutely can heal from that and one of the best ways of doing it is through supportive healthy safe relationships

28:14Kimberley Wilson:Zoe thank you that's so so helpful and clarifying and what I love about this conversation is it's almost as if we've kind of taken a meme you know this is all over social media but really contextualized it in real psychology real relationships and I hope what we're inviting people to do is to pay attention. Yes, be excited. Yes, be interested, but kind of pay attention, be thoughtful, trust yourself, trust your friends. I put all of that in the context of what it feels like to start something new with someone.

28:59Kimberley Wilson:We are very rapidly coming up to the end of the episode. Zoe, thank you very, very much. thank you for having me and thank you to everyone listening if you want details of further support with some of the issues raised in the podcast you can find them at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line and the link is also in the show notes on BBC Sounds and that's it thank you again to my guest psychotherapist Zoe Ross and thank you to the wonderful production team at Loftus Media producer Rami Zabar assistant producers Katie Chandra-Clark and Samara Linton, who was also our researcher on this episode, executive producer Kirsten Lass, technical producer Ruben Huxtable, studio engineer Andres Albert, sound engineer Ruth Rainey, and at BBC Sounds, assistant commissioner Izzy Lee Poulton and commissioning editor Rhian Roberts.

29:54Kimberley Wilson:I'm Kimberly Wilson. Thank you very much for listening. Take care and go gently.

30:07Kimberley Wilson:I'm Gemma Gander, and for BBC Radio 4 and Shadow World, this is Stolen Years. More than two decades ago, Andrew Malkinson was found guilty of a crime he didn't commit. There's a massive hole in your life and it's been filled in with suffering. Now in 2026, another man has faced a jury of his peers. On trial for the very same crime Andrew spent years of his life imprisoned for. I'm 55. I was 37 when I went in. It's damaging. Driven by Andy's passion to see the system held to account, we follow him as he tries to build back a life. And we discover how Paul Quinn came to finally be convicted. Subscribe to Shadow World Stolen Years on BBC Sounds.

30:56Kimberley Wilson:The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary. And so on the Global Story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe.

31:11Zoe Ross:We have this ability to export our story and a lot of people have bought it.

31:16Kimberley Wilson:I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well. From the BBC, it's the United States at 250.

31:22Zoe Ross:Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.