Is your partner a narcissist?

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0:38Kimberley Wilson:Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberley Wilson. I'm a counselling psychologist and this is Complex. The podcast about psychology and mental health. And what I hope is that Complex can help you to clearer path through all the misinformation that's out there because there is just so much of it. In today's episode, I'm exploring a very hot button topic and that's narcissism.

1:13Kimberley Wilson:Now, there was a time not very long ago when you couldn't open a social media app without seeing a question like, is my boyfriend a narcissist? Or seven signs that your mother or your boss is a narcissist. And it's all too easy to sit back and demonize a disorder like this. I would go so far as to say it can feel quite satisfying to feel that we can make a judgment or a kind of lay diagnosis of someone. But as listeners will know, what I like to do on Complex is to bring some nuance and a little bit more detail to the conversation and perhaps a little dollop of compassion. And I should disclose that I have a personal interest in this topic.

2:05Kimberley Wilson:In fact, one of my master's dissertations was on narcissism. So I am really looking forward to getting into more detail and depth in this episode. And as usual, I'll be bringing on board an expert and we'll be hearing a story to help us unpick what narcissism really means. So let me be your guide from the muddy puddle of misinformation to the clear flowing waters of understanding.

2:36Kimberley Wilson:Joining me today is psychotherapist Zoe Ross, who specialises in helping her clients to recover from narcissistic abuse. Zoe, welcome to the show. Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and also about your work?

2:52Zoe Ross:Yes, absolutely. So as you said, I'm a psychotherapist. I work primarily in private practice with people who have experienced being in a relationship with somebody who's highly narcissistic. So that may be a parent or it may be a romantic partner or a work colleague and I help them to deal with the aftermath and to recover from that. And I also work in an NHS referral clinic where I work with complex trauma and dissociative disorders.

3:23Kimberley Wilson:Working around narcissism is quite niche. It can be very difficult. People present with really complex experiences. How did you kind of get into this work? Lived experience. Okay. Yeah.

3:36Zoe Ross:As with so many of us. As often happens. And as that developed and as I started working more and more with people, I started moving more into the complex trauma world. And there's often narcissism at play in some way there.

3:51Kimberley Wilson:So you really are an excellent person to be helping to guide me and the listeners through this topic. I think it's going to be a really important conversation.

4:05Kimberley Wilson:I always do this, but I think it's particularly important with a topic like narcissism, where I think there is a lot of kind of lay understanding to start with a definition. So what is narcissism from a clinical professional perspective?

4:21Zoe Ross:So from a clinical perspective, it is a pervasive pattern of a personality that is overly self-important and self-involved and self-centered. so it's sometimes called a disorder of self-esteem because actually some of the grandiosity or the self-importance that we consider and that we'll talk about that we know to be narcissism is actually hiding and covering up the fragile sense of self that sits underneath which is really

4:54Kimberley Wilson:important and i think often missed we see the grandiosity we see the bravado we see the people kind of stomping around and showing us how important and wonderful they are. And what we don't see is so often that that's a shield. But what is underneath that kind of bomb shelter is something very small, very fragile, that doesn't feel able to encounter, engage with the world.

5:19Zoe Ross:You're absolutely right. It's making sure that we understand what's going on, be compassionate about that. It doesn't mean we have to collude with it. And we can be compassionate from a distance. Really important. Thank you. So let's get into the complexity.

5:38Kimberley Wilson:Zoe, I am going to share a story that's been passed to us from someone we're going to call Emma to protect her identity. And what I would love is to hear what you think about Emma's story. Emma says,

6:21Kimberley Wilson:about being the most important person in my partner's life, he makes it about him. It makes me want to scream and shake my partner because he just doesn't see how insufferable his friend is. What do I do?

6:36Zoe Ross:Yeah, so you can feel the distress there, can't you? She's picking up the clear signal that it's all about. It's all about him. It's all about the friend. And that's the core sign that, yes, absolutely, narcissism is at play there. everything is about them so anything that happens in life they manage to make it all about them and that's often what we pick up when we start to realize this lack of mutuality hang on a minute if I share a story they've always done it better you know if I've been to France they've been to

7:08Kimberley Wilson:Monaco you know if I knew something they knew it before me absolutely and there's a spectrum as well

7:17Zoe Ross:clinically if we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder. Yes, what's the difference? So there's traits and there's disorders. So can you describe those two? Absolutely. So we can all have these traits at times. So we can all be self-centered. We can all like external admiration.

7:34Kimberley Wilson:Love me, praise me, adore me.

7:36Zoe Ross:Yeah, exactly. Who doesn't? Right, oh, that's a lovely dress. Oh, thank you so much. You know, we can all have that. And that's not inherently wrong. it's if that starts to become very rigid if that starts to cause problems interpersonally in all of our relationships if there's a lack of mutuality because we are taking up far too much space and we're not really genuinely concerned about another person and so that's where it starts to enter into territory that becomes more damaging interpersonally and is it also fair to say that

8:12Kimberley Wilson:aspects of narcissism, narcissistic traits are developmental. Might we see them kind of earlier on in life, in childhood and hopefully grow through them?

8:21Zoe Ross:Exactly. And usually that's where there's been an issue that does not allow somebody to develop fully in the way that we might so work through the state that we've all been through as toddlers. We've all been there. When we are very egocentric. And we think the entire world revolves around us. Completely. But often there's something that gets stunted, stuck there. And that's where it becomes complex, right? That's where it's not simplistic. And that's where the narrative online is quite damaging about the narcissist. As if it's a kind of monolith.

8:56Kimberley Wilson:Exactly. And actually, even on that, there are different types of narcissism. Can you speak to that?

9:04Zoe Ross:Yeah, completely. So there's the two main types, and then there is another type that we would want to make sure that we talk about too. So the classic grandiose narcissists, they're often in positions of power and control, very entitled, very charming when we first meet them, larger than life, take up a lot of space. Often a lot of fun. Great fun to be around at least at first. And that's where we can get pulled in to the charm, to the fun, to the excitement.

9:35Kimberley Wilson:So what I would have called when I was doing my master's thick skin narcissism, but what is more commonly called grandiose or overt narcissism.

9:43Zoe Ross:Yes, exactly. Then there's the vulnerable narcissist, the covert narcissist, thin-skinned narcissist. That's often harder to spot initially because they can present as anxious, as depressed, as quiet, as introverted. Needing a lot of reassurance. Oh, so much reassurance. The world has really done them wrong.

10:04Kimberley Wilson:so there's almost like this pulling you in into their victimhood and their story

10:12Zoe Ross:but it's the same thing it's all about them and they're using this external validation external admiration for them being a good person really and it's all these other people that are bad and they can be harder to spot but again it's all about them and the third type so the third type would be the one that when social media is talking about narcissism is often what they're referring to. So malignant narcissists would be at the extreme end of the scale and is usually linked with antisocial type personality traits as well, sometimes psychopathy. So there's a complete lack of empathy. There's sometimes a sadism, sometimes enjoyment out of other people's pain.

11:00Kimberley Wilson:Okay. So That feels like a really important distinction, doesn't it? Because, as you say, the narrative online of this is narcissism, actually you're describing as a very small proportion and an extreme proportion of the population that we might describe as having either narcissistic traits to a lesser or greater degree or narcissistic personality disorder, NPD.

11:22Zoe Ross:Which is very much personality disorder territory. And we need to be very clear. it's extremely traumatizing to be in a relationship with somebody like that and it has very real consequences for us however social media would have you believe that every single person yes who has some narcissistic traits is a malignant narcissist and that's not true and I wonder

11:45Kimberley Wilson:whether we don't necessarily need psychological speak psychobabble psychological labels mental health condition labels some people are just really unkind and selfish but not necessarily

11:56Zoe Ross:narcissistic. I totally agree. And sometimes they're just a jerk, right? It doesn't mean that they're a narcissist. If I just think you've been really selfish and you're not thinking about

12:05Kimberley Wilson:my feelings and for some reason you can't see me in our relationship, maybe that is open to discussion and transformation and working through in a way that if I've decided you're a narcissist, it feels much more hopeless.

12:19Zoe Ross:Absolutely. The nuance here is that if somebody is high on the narcissism scale absolutely you are much better to step away and to leave but if we're just labeling everybody as a narcissist then as you say it means that we don't have to work on this thing right i don't have to look at why i am staying here what's going on for me what's going on in

12:40Kimberley Wilson:the dance between us all of these posts would have us as you say believing that there are narcissists in the majority among us but actually what do we know about the actual prevalence in the general population?

12:53Zoe Ross:It's really hard to get the actual figures. And again, there's traits versus personality disorder. And so clinically, from a personality disorder perspective, it could be around 1%. But I don't feel confident saying that.

13:12Kimberley Wilson:Our researcher couldn't find anything really solid in terms of the UK data. In the US, it seems to be somewhere between zero and 6%. But even so, not the majority of people around you who you find annoying, irritating and difficult to be around. Exactly. And I think when most people think about a narcissist, they imagine a man. Is that the case?

13:37Zoe Ross:What do you see? What do we know? You're absolutely spot on in that usually we associate narcissism with very male characteristics, especially the grandiose type or possibly even the malignant but actually more and more I see people coming into my clinic who are men who have really been pulled into narcissistic dynamics with women quite often young men actually or younger men there's a rise I think in women who are exhibiting narcissistic traits possibly fueled hugely by social media and I actually spoke to a few of my male clients before I came here and asked them what they would like me to share if I was going to be representing their voice and a few of them said very clearly that they would like other men to know what narcissism looks like and how to spot the signs and often they're pulled into these dynamics with women who are highly sexualized and who know exactly how to get a man's attention.

14:42Zoe Ross:But then there's this intensity at the beginning. And we often mistake intensity for passion, drama. Exactly. Completely. And also there's a narrative, isn't there, that men can just have sex. It's going to be fine. We can then detach. And of course, that often is not the case at all for men. And there's this love bombing to use some of the pop psychology language. And then before you know it, you're caught up in a relationship with somebody who then, when the mask drops, you realize is very, very different than who they have presented at the beginning. That's so interesting.

15:18Kimberley Wilson:Thank you for that. And thank you to your clients for allowing you to share that aspect of their experience. where I see it is maybe a kind of skewed sample I don't know how much of the population this really affects but I work and have worked for some time with body image and eating difficulties and I found that I'm very often particularly when I'm working with women working with the daughters of narcissistic mothers yeah and that my conceptualization of why that is is because there's a real difficulty in the narcissistic mother disentangling from the daughter and allowing the daughter to be an independent being of her own that she kind of creates the universe for her daughter and that the daughter's only way of creating a sense of separation is through her body she doesn't feel she has power and control over her mind and you're hitting on a couple of