What is ‘gaslighting’?

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1:46The psychology podcast that I hope can help you find your way through the hills and valleys of all the many facts and fictions around mental health. in today's episode i'm exploring gaslighting

2:08now gaslighting is one of those terms that i feel completely saturated in especially when i'm on social media and we'll get on to what it actually means and how to recognize it but first and i love this. Did you know that the term gaslighting is thought to come from a play written in 1938 about a man who's making his wife doubt her own sanity so he could control her and get his hands on her inheritance. So he was secretly dimming the gaslights in their house and then denying it when she questioned him about it or noticed. As usual, in this episode, I'm inviting an expert guest to join me and we're going to dig into a listener's experience too.

2:54So let me be your guide from the flickering lamp of misinformation to the floodlights of understanding.

3:06With me today is Jennifer Cox, a psychotherapist and author and I'm delighted to welcome her back to the Complex Studio. Hello Jennifer. Hello Kimberly, lovely to be here. Thank you for joining us again. And for all the listeners, could you remind us a little bit about your work, please? I'm a psychotherapist and author of the book Women Are Angry, which goes into why women typically repress their angry feelings and how those feelings often come out in illness, mental and physical. And I also am co-founder of the Women Are Mad project and podcast, which helps women feel supported in feeling their feelings, all of them.

3:51So this idea of taking feelings seriously is absolutely crucial to today's episode. How does gaslighting show up for you in your practice? I'd say pretty much every day I have women coming to see me who doubt themselves or their reality. So it could be that they're living with a partner who's trying to maybe just gently deny something that they feel to be very much true about their shared life together. And maybe this is growing over time and they've come to actually sort of get some validation on what their reality is. And then it can extend all the way through to people's experiences of work.

4:33You know, it's quite common actually to be professionally gaslit. So people just, again, quite subtly suggesting that no, no, you didn't send that email that you really thought you had. And then a big one for women is medical gaslighting and actually lots of letters of support that I end up writing for women to be taken seriously when they go to visit medical professionals. Therefore really things that you wouldn't have thought you'd need a kind of corroborating piece of evidence for for example, to do with menopause or reproductive health. And unfortunately, really often with women of colour, that seems to be the people that I most often have to support in that way.

5:21Okay, I feel like this is going to be a really important conversation. Let's get started.

5:31Usually, I start by asking you for a definition. But in fact, this week's listener question does just that. So I'm going to read it out and then we can dive in. So I'll keep this anonymous and this person says, hello Kimberly, I wonder whether you might please offer an episode about gaslighting. The term is prevalent but no one seems quite to know how it's defined or whether it denotes true psychological harm. So how would you answer that, Jennifer? So I think this is the issue we don't actually tend to take it very seriously it's a buzzword it's thrown around but the truth is at its most serious it's a psychological mechanism for essentially coercing somebody into disbelieving their reality and disbelieving their truth and you said coercive and more recently coercive control has become a recognised legal term.

6:35Where would gaslighting fit within that framework? Yeah, so coercive control is actually now classified as a crime under the Serious Crime Act 2015 and gaslighting is a recognised form of that. So there's a lot for us to discuss. Let's get into the complexity.

6:57So, Jennifer, what might gaslighting look like? So, a good example of gaslighting would be your partner tells you that he finds you very attractive, but that nobody else does. So, effectively, he's moderating the reality of what you've always known, of what other people might have told you, of what you believed about yourself. Okay. Can we outline how it feels to be gaslit? Yeah. So I think typically what people would report feeling is a kind of rising sense of anxiety and unease and a feeling that they can't trust their own sense of reality, but also their memories, the thoughts that they thought were pretty clear at the time.

7:51they can feel pretty disoriented second guess themselves a lot I think often actually end up feeling quite disappointed with themselves how do I keep making so many mistakes how am I wrong all the time so their sense of confidence becomes more and more shaky yes and I think also their own sense of intellect because they think well if I can't remember that then am I stupid and do I have to keep referring to this other person. Yes, I think that's it. And I think you can see where people start to kind of actually worry about what might be going on with their own mental health. Should I be concerned that there's something actually wrong with me, like organically?

8:34So what's the difference between someone remembering something differently, so you and I go to a party and remember different aspects of it, and gaslighting? The difference, I think, would be when there's intent. So if you or I have a different experience or memory of an event, that's normal. That's fine. Because there's a kind of fun to that, you know, or did you not remember when he said that? It's sort of more fun when you go, oh, I know, wasn't that hilarious? whereas what we're talking about is this far more sinister well actually illegal end of a spectrum where somebody is deliberately trying to gain control over another person and maybe even create a dependency in the other person by what they're choosing to do with the truth and i think this is why particularly it's actually seen as a gendered crime because you can see how the kind of architecture of inequality baked into our society really leaves women incredibly vulnerable, especially to this kind of treatment.

9:39We've been talking a lot about where we see gaslighting, which is often part of the course of control. I think where I see it most, actually, is in families, particularly hierarchical families. Families where respect is synonymous with obedience. So where you say you must respect your parents, but actually what they mean is you must do as we say. And or, frankly, where there is narcissism or personality disorder in the parents. And so, for example, you might have a situation where a mother says, oh, you're just like your father. And the broad understanding is that she hates the father. Really hurtful, really harmful for the child.

10:28And a week later, a month later, they go back and say, remember when you said that to me? You said I was just like dad. No. What are you talking about? I would never say something like that to you. You're always trying to make me out to be a villain. You always remember things wrong. I mean, it can be so pernicious because, first of all, parents are in this such an automatic position of power. Absolutely. They create the universe for their children. There's a huge amount of social pressure for you to believe your parents, whether you're a child child or an adult child, but also for you to believe your parents view of you.

11:07They made you. They must be right about you and your mind. Totally agree because also you can see with children they are so vulnerable to this. That kind of message of respect your elders or no he's a nice man. So even if that child is actually feeling really uncomfortable around this person, if the message from especially parents is no, no, no, you need to go and give him a big cuddle because we like him as a family, then that child's reality is being completely ridden roughshod. over and as they grow how are they going to be able to trust the ground they walk on but someone who loves and cares about you who respects you doesn't want you to feel unsure about who you are and can tolerate you having your own identity your own reality your own mind yeah and wants you to have that like was drawn to that about you whether that's a friend or a partner so a clear understanding and knowledge is everything but I think it can be really hard to identify when it's happening to you isn't it yeah this sort of erosion of one's reality is is the way that it begins and I think you know you can imagine it can kind of come in a big shocking form where something that you are absolutely certain of is being denied like to your face but I think more likely it's that people start to kind of feel their confidence beginning to wane like in general in their lives and I think there are times in all of our lives when we're more vulnerable to this kind of mechanism and approach for example you can imagine it's your first job and you're trying to make a good impression and you know you don't have much experience in the world of adulting it'd be really easy to be taken advantage of yes and similarly if it's your first romantic relationship, it can really distort your sense of not just who you are, but what relationships look like.

13:14This is how it is. This is normal. And I shouldn't complain. And often these sorts of relationships start with, you know, intense affection and love bombing and it disorientates you. So it can be really hard then to kind of dig through and separate what's healthy, what's unhealthy, what's my instinct. And do I even trust my instinct at this point? For sure. And I guess if we've been brought up in families who haven't been brilliant at encouraging us to go with our instincts and, as you say, trust them and use them as data, then we don't have the apparatus to handle these more complex situations as we grow up.

13:54My personal theory, because I work so much with food, is that this is one of the reasons that women are so much more vulnerable to it. Because from very early on, we're encouraged to doubt our instincts. All the messages around, you know, oh, you're probably not hungry. You're probably just thirsty. Oh, I don't know if you want to eat that. You can't be hungry. and so those very early intimate messages from your own body yeah about what my body needs am I hungry am I full these things form the foundations of your sense of trust in yourself yeah because that's our first encounter with being able to control our environment isn't it what we put into our body and when so do not trust what it is that you're feeling never trust that because I know best.

14:43Okay, so if gaslighting is happening in relationships, in the workplace, in the medical field, in families, what do we know about prevalence? So there is a really alarming stat from the European Institute for Gender Equality that almost one in two women have been victim to psychological violence within intimate partner relations. Okay, so that's nearly half in romantic relationships. And then I guess we have to kind of factor in what might be underreported, what might be missed because it's in the family and it's all you've ever known. I think it is really frightening actually, Kimberley, and I think it's probably higher because it's almost impossible to get accurate data on these kind of behind-closed-doors interactions.

15:35And also, because of the nature of what gaslighting is, it completely distorts our reality. So we don't know what's normal and what isn't. I suppose I want to recognise that we've been speaking mostly about women. That's where most of the data are. But, of course, it can and does happen to men. It does happen to men. It definitely does. I have personally worked with a couple of cases involving men as the victims or the survivors of gaslighting. But it is difficult to find data that really talks to their experience.

16:13You touched earlier on how sometimes someone will say, oh no, it was six o 'clock, not eight o 'clock, you're gaslighting me. You know, something like that. We use it in this very casual way. and what can be very helpful I think for a listener is just to clarify the tipping point the scale at which we go from normal disagreement to gaslighting so for example a normal healthy disagreement looks like? Two people having different opinions, being able to express those without fear and without, I suppose, feeling that they have to give ground. Then as we move more towards something that feels more concerning, more alarming, what does disagreement look like?

17:05Then I think disagreement starts to feel like you're walking on eggshells like you need to be really really careful what you say next like you need to vet maybe your experience and perhaps try to tweak it or adjust it double check double check you find yourself maybe agreeing with them just because it's easier and then I guess you kind of allow them to make your mind up for you because that's a safer life yes you know you might not be feeling endangered physically but nonetheless it's possible to feel really really frightened psychologically yes and alongside that do you find yourself in a position where they are always right and you are always wrong if we sort of can telescope out from that situation enough to identify how crazy it sounds that this person always knows everything all the time 100 % never has any slips of memory never has a weird perspective on events and that you always do I mean, that's, it's not possible.

18:21So on the receiving end of gaslighting, there is a persistent sense of doubt in your own perspective, your own mind, intelligence. you feel compelled to double check and corroborate with the other person who perhaps is always right or whom you trust more to tell you what happened than you do your own mind it's as if we've sort of rewritten the rules of safety a bit because it's instead of our instinct and our feeling keeping us safe, it feels safer to give them theirs. And I think if that's the situation you're in, this is extreme. Now, if this is you and you're recognising that this might be a pattern of behaviour which you are experiencing, especially with a partner or at work or within your family, then please know that it's not okay and I urge you to seek professional support.

19:28There are specialist organisations that can give you advice and you can find some sources of support in the show notes on BBC Sounds.

19:40Jennifer tell us if someone listening is starting to feel uneasy about their situation. What's your best advice? What I would always say to people who feel that this could be applicable to them is find a friend. Don't do this on your own and don't necessarily try to confront the person that is doing this to you, particularly not by yourself. I think we need to make ourselves as strong as we can and I think we need to dare to practice trusting ourselves and our feelings sometimes it's easier to kind of tackle it as if we were advising a friend so what would you tell a friend you tell a friend tell a friend you know because you've been isolated you've been singled out you've probably never felt so alone in whatever setting this applies.

20:39So get together with somebody else and tell them what's been happening. Tell them what you feel. Yes. And it's very probably going to be a process of emotional and psychological re-education. I feel like it's almost like putting the training wheels on your trust in yourself, right? And that in order to do that, you might need additional tools, right? You might need to, when an incident happens you write it down you have your own diary or journal or online password protected documents yeah where you write down what happened because what's going to need to happen going forward is that you build up enough evidence of your own mind and your own honest reflection accurate reflection of what happened to start building that trust yeah and So you can go back and be like, actually, no, on June 14th, I did say that or they did say that.

21:38OK, that's one additional brick in my wall of self-confidence. Precisely. And you go along and kind of add to those bricks until you have a much stronger foundation. I agree. I really think as women, we need to almost always disregard someone telling us it's all in our heads. because historically that's what when I say they've tried to do of course who I mean is patriarchal society but you know since I don't know 4 ,000 years ago women have been called hysterics and I feel like these are the modern day equivalents and we need to back ourselves and side with ourselves and so yeah use that intuition and let's find those trusted people and those kind of trusted mechanisms that we can employ for ourselves to ground ourselves again.

22:30Yes. And also within those trusted people are therapists and trained and qualified mental health experts. And certainly what I have seen in people in these controlling hierarchical families or relationships is that when they come to therapy and they start building their trust up again and they start maybe very gently standing their ground maybe you know not being quite as quick to comply or agree with this other person's position that they will start to hear complaints about the therapy oh that's true where are you getting this from therapist is putting ideas in your head she's done a right number on you and I just offer that because it could be evidence of the fact that the therapy and your growing confidence in yourself is starting to challenge that person's control over you and your mind yeah and actually probably points to you being absolutely correct in your position and the therapist being on the right track in helping you because if nothing was going on in that therapy then why would they have this response yeah and i guess all of that is to say that we professionals are very familiar with these dynamics we are trained in them but also we will have seen them hundreds of times and so there are things that you can do maybe on your own with a friend to start building your confidence but there are also places that you can go there is support for you out there absolutely I completely agree

24:21and that is it thank you Jennifer this has been in places heavy and I think that's because we we know what it's like to work with people who have been in these positions are in these positions but I hope also alongside that reassuring, clarifying and supportive. So thank you Jennifer for coming back and sharing your expertise with us. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you to our listener who sent in an email asking us to do this episode on gaslighting and a big thank you to everyone who is listening. As you know by now I am on a mission to clear up the mental health space. So please, as this week's listener did, tell me what you want me to talk about.

25:09The team absolutely loves receiving your email, so please do keep sending them in. Send us your experiences or a question, a couple of paragraphs about your dilemma to complex at bbc.co.uk. Please note that I can't answer you personally. So if you have a concern about a medical or mental health issue, then I'd strongly urge you to seek expert help. And finally, if you want details of further support with some of the issues raised in the podcast, you can find them at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. And the link is also in the show notes on BBC Sounds.

25:48We are rapidly approaching the end of the episode. And I just want to say a quick thank you to the lovely production team at Loftus Media, producer Kirsten Lass, assistant producers Dr. Samara Linton and Katie Chandler-Clark, science editor Rami Zabar, technical producer Ruben Huxtable, digital editor Richard Berry, studio engineer Andrus Albert, sound engineer Ruth Rainey, and at BBC Sounds, assistant commissioner Izzy Lee Poulton and commissioning editor Rhian Roberts. I'm Kimberley Wilson. Thanks for listening. Take care and go gently.

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