Why is it so hard to talk about sex?

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1:05Kimberley Wilson:Hello and welcome. I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a counselling psychologist and this is Complex. The show about psychology and mental health. And today's episode is all about sex. Or more specifically, why talking about sex can feel so unbelievably awkward. And friends, let me start by saying, if you're someone who finds these conversations impossible, you are definitely not alone. Around one in five UK adults say they don't feel comfortable talking about sex with anyone. on. And according to the research, women in straight relationships find it easier talking about sex with their friends rather than their partners.

1:55Kimberley Wilson:So how do we start having these conversations without wanting the floor to swallow us whole? Well, thankfully, I have an expert guest who's going to walk us through exactly how to do that. So let me be your guide from the thorny brambles of misinformation to the strawberry fields of understanding.

2:19Kimberley Wilson:And today in the studio, I have psychotherapist Sarah Harness to talk to me all about sex. Sarah, welcome to the show. Hi Kimblee, it's really great to be here. Can you tell us a little bit about your practice? So I've worked in private practice for about 15 years or so now, and my main modality is in transactional analysis, which is a theory of personality really about how we've become who we are. So how do we think about ourselves, other people and the world? And I also work as a psychosexual therapist as well, which is a specialist kind of form of therapy for people who might be experiencing any problems or difficulties related to anything to do with sex or sexuality.

3:01Kimberley Wilson:How often is sex a cause or the symptom of the problems in a relationship? sex comes up a lot whether it's people wanting to talk about identity power control their own sort of relationship with sexuality or with couples about how sex and sexuality fits into their lives whether it's two people three people or more i think this is going to be a really important and useful episode for all of our listeners so thank you very much for joining us

3:38Kimberley Wilson:now before we get further into today's topic it's worth saying that a lot of the research that we found for this episode was focused solely on heterosexual relationships but we will be bringing in other perspectives so let's begin sarah when psychologists talk about sexual communication what do we actually mean? I guess what we mean by that is everything that's known to us to ourselves about our own sexual identity and everything that we want to be known to others and I guess you know sexual communication isn't just in the talking it's also in the way we interact with people it's in the silences it's in the things we don't say it's in the things that people talk about and the things that we avoid.

4:28Kimberley Wilson:I really love the distinction you make between being known to self as well as to others, because I suppose there'll be a lot of barriers for a lot of people there about knowing and allowing perhaps aspects of their own sex and sexuality to be known to themselves. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's often where the conversation should start is with ourself. So we've all got a sexuality, whatever we decide or want to determine that as. And for some people, it's a really difficult thing to make sense of depending on background, upbringing, culture, religious messages, all sorts of different things. So I think the conversation we have with ourself is the most important one actually.

5:07And then yeah, sexual communication amongst people who are engaging in sexual activity together is absolutely critical. Like you said at the beginning though, it's not always easy for an abundance of reasons, but if we can do it, research would suggest that There's a lot of benefits for it. I think that's the perfect place to start.

5:24Kimberley Wilson:Thank you.

5:28Kimberley Wilson:So usually at this point in the episode, I would be sharing a listener's email, but we don't have one today. And that's really interesting because the research tells us that over a third of men and over half of women experience psychosexual difficulties, but that the vast majority suffer in silence and it feels like they're just like parallel. in our inbox in that there's no questions on this. Yeah, I guess that's not surprising. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what people might consider sexual problems. People have a lot of shame attached to certain things and think they're the only one who's ever experienced what it is they're experiencing.

6:07And that can be really frightening, really isolating. You know, my experience working with people is some find it easier than others to talk about sex. So with that, let's get into the complexity.

6:21Kimberley Wilson:so for many people talking about sex with their partner is probably one of the last things that they want to do but can you kick us off by talking about what some of the benefits of having an open conversation about sex are yeah sure there's tons of research out there that would suggest the benefits of having open conversations about sex it makes better your relationship full stop not just the sex you're having but actually the whole the entirety of the relationship I think one of the benefits though is that you will have most likely better sex you know that's actually quite an important part of all of this but I think you know there are other benefits a really important one such as this idea of what it means to be known what it means to be able to be fully yourself for yourself and for somebody else you know and the freedom that comes along with that a lot of people are hiding aspects of themselves even with their most intimate partners yeah either hiding or unaware you know where do people get their educational messages about what good sex might look like and what we have are people going into sexual relationships often who don't either know what works for themselves or feel that they're not able to ask for what they want either because good sex is very much about communication.

7:41Kimberley Wilson:So why is it so difficult? Why do we find it so hard to talk about sex? I think we're not ever really taught the language in the beginning. Most of us don't have a good model for what a healthy sort of sexual conversation might look like. And maybe that goes all the way back even to kind of the language for sexual organs, sexual body parts, genitalia, using them appropriately and confidently without kind of euphemising and shying away from. Yeah, or showing shame for any of them. We've all been sad, haven't we, when, you know, a sex scene has come on the telly and mum and dad are in the room or whoever's in the room with us.

8:17And we can feel that sense of being uncomfortable because we don't want to think of our parents as sexual beings. And yet it's where we learn our very first messages about intimate relationships. So what does touch look like? What is warmth like? Whose needs are met more than somebody else's? because whatever conversation we have about sex, it's not just about sex. You know, it's so much more than that. It's about all of those things, connection, trust, intimacy, desire, pleasure. And we learn that from the very second we're able to observe the sort of relationships in our sphere.

8:53Kimberley Wilson:So why is there that relationship between better conversations and better relationships overall? Well, being able to talk about difficult things in any relationship helps build a closeness, helps build a connection and an intimacy. You know, if we're having honest conversations about who we are, what we like, what is okay for us, what is not okay for us, and we are in a situation with somebody else who is able to receive that without judgment, it builds an intimacy. You know, we feel closer, we feel loved. And plus, you know, research would also suggest that better sex builds a better connection, it builds better trust.

9:31we tend to be nicer to our partner if we are feeling happy with our sexual life as well.

9:38Kimberley Wilson:So the conversations about sex are both a means to and almost a proxy for deeper trust, greater intimacy, a greater sense of safety. Exactly that. Yeah, safety is a really important word, actually. Yes. Can I tell you this intimate, vulnerable part of myself? And can you hold that with care and kindness. Is it okay for me to be me here? Yeah. And for that to be seen? That's really important. It really matters. And even more so outside of just kind of intimate relationships, particularly if we think about LGBTQ plus groups, for example, where, you know, the history has might suggest that their desire is not okay in some way, that it's been erased from history or pathologised, then actually opening those conversations up, being able to see other people talk about that, to have your desire known, met, received, is a really important part of being able to become who you are.

10:36Thank you.

10:37Kimberley Wilson:So you mentioned that these conversations about sex can improve sexual function. And we've certainly been reading in the team about the orgasm gap. So that describes the way that twice as many men in heterosexual relationships experience orgasm every time they have sex compared to women. So 63 % of men, 30 % of women. Yeah, it's shocking statistics, isn't it? It's a really interesting piece of research. And for me, the orgasm gap is not really about orgasm or sex. It's about education and it's about culture and societal expectation and communication. So there is still research out there that would suggest people expect and think that a man's orgasm is more important than a woman's.

11:27It's quite shocking still, but absolutely still the case. And there's lots of reasons that we could get into.

11:33Kimberley Wilson:And that there's a kind of biological need. I mean, I remember as a teenager there being this kind of idea that it's painful for a guy if he doesn't have orgasm and it's bad for him. Yeah, so the blue ball syndrome. It's utter nonsense. It's a total myth. It's a really strong societal message. that female sexuality is secondary. You know, young girls and young women are getting messages all the time about be sexually available but don't have too many needs. You know, tons of contradictory messages for men as well. But I think it can just feel so complex in terms of what is expected of me and harder as well when we're younger to be able to step outside of that and think, well, what is okay for me or what do I want?

12:16What is this experience like for me?

12:18Kimberley Wilson:Yes. and so what role does shame play in the difficulty we have in talking about sex yeah shame is massive and shame is this real sense of i'm not okay something about me is intrinsically bad and shame is a structure it's something that's given to us from parents or education or silence and that's why i guess as well talking about sex is so important because that helps reduce shame yes and particularly because shame the impulse with shame is to withdraw and retreat and hide away and not to kind of engage or ask questions or learn more it's a really a kind of separating isolating emotion yeah very much so and it's very serious in parts as well you know if what we grow up is learning that the rules around me are that I'm supposed to be one way and my personal experience is it's something different then we internalize that shame you know and often can grow up not living the life that we might really have wanted to or being okay with who we are and it's very damaging yeah but I guess it's not just our fears of how we will be perceived when we're kind of having this trepidation about opening up a conversation about sex I think there's also the fear about how the other person will react there can be a real fear of conflict you know of upsetting somebody as well.

13:45What if I bring up that I'm not entirely happy with how our sex life is and I upset the other person and I don't want to do that. So often that's a real blocker for people. They don't say anything, they stay silent. And it's worth saying with that, you know, actually therefore then the danger of that is in staying silent, we then start perhaps to avoid sex because it's not quite working for us or how we might want things to be and no one's talking about it. And so sex gradually just sort of stops and then it's much harder to sort of kind of have the conversations then from a standing start, if you like.

14:19Kimberley Wilson:All that resentment builds up in its place. Absolutely. Resentment builds up and then there are assumptions. They're not interested in me. They don't find me attractive anymore, whatever it might be. Because if we're not talking, then we're not knowing. And if we're not knowing, then of course we go... We fill that gap with our worst fears, our terrors. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it can be really hard. But I think what really matters is, do I feel I'm in a relationship or a situation where I am able to talk about sex if I need to? Can I be known in that way? And can I do that in a way that has kindness to it and curiosity?

14:57Because it is a vulnerable thing. It does make us feel vulnerable. But I think ideally what we would want is to be in a situation where we feel we are able to address it if we might need to.

15:12Kimberley Wilson:We did an episode recently about the impact of pornography on sexual beliefs and behaviours. Listeners can find that in the Complex Feed on BBC Sounds. But Sarah, in your work, do you find that porn impacts how people talk about sex? Yeah, it's a really interesting subject. and yes people can watch porn and then have a sense of that's what they think is sex education it's not you know it's theatre and so people can come with a real sense of this is what it needs to look like this is what it needs to sound like this is you know the technique I should be using these are what people's bodies ought to look like and it just leads to real pressure and an unknowing of self if you like and then also I work with people where porn is a really useful part of reconnecting with sex as well or thinking together about what is arousing for people you know what do they like what don't they like and so it's a spectrum you know yeah that's a really interesting idea because I guess even in a happy well-functioning couple there can be differences in things like sexual desire, libido, that can be really challenging or even frustrating for couples to navigate.

16:33Kimberley Wilson:How, as a conversation, would you approach that? Yeah, desire discrepancy is really common. And throughout our lives, it can change throughout the relationship, throughout the month, if you like. And so desire discrepancy is just another thing that we need to talk about. where is the intimacy in the relationship? Where is the connection? And it's not so much about reaching compromise. It's about reaching understanding for each other. And there's never just about frequency. It's always got something else to do with being met or being seen or being wanted or cared for or how we feel about things, you know.

17:07Kimberley Wilson:Yeah. I feel like that's a really important thing for people to hear because I think we can walk around with this idea that we should all be having sex a certain number of times per week for it to be a healthy relationship or things to be going well. Yeah, there is no right frequency, you know, it's what's right for you. And the difficulty can come sometimes when if your sense of that is different to the person you're having sex with, and then we need a conversation about that.

17:39Kimberley Wilson:At this point in the show, what I like to do is to put our topic onto a scale, just to kind of create some context for the discussion for the listener. So Sarah, could you paint us a picture of what healthy communication about sex in a relationship might look and feel like? Okay, so it's different for different people. So there is no one thing that we're trying to work toward or get or attain because it just puts more pressure on. But I guess how I think of it is do I feel safe and able to talk about my needs or wants if I want to? It sounds quite straightforward, but is it okay for me to talk about sex when it feels appropriate for me to do so?

18:26Is there respect? Am I okay to be vulnerable and have difficult conversations where we might not agree, but actually somebody is interested with curiosity and care about what it is I'm saying and can I reciprocate that. It's accepting that it can feel awkward sometimes. We're worried about causing conflict within a relationship, so it can feel tricky. And it's perfectly okay to sort of highlight that at the beginning. You know, this is a bit hard for me to say, but I really care about us, so I want to bring it up. And that for me would look like a healthy kind of way of talking about sex.

19:03Kimberley Wilson:I suppose at the other end of the scale, what unhealthy looks like, I guess you're saying not feeling safe to open up. Yeah. Keeping quiet when actually something is very important, feeling as though the other person's point of view isn't valid or something like that. Yeah, absolutely that. You know, feeling silenced, frightened, controlled, ashamed. Those things are not okay. And nobody should be in a situation where they feel those things, you know. I'm thinking about the tension between the eroticism, sexual desire, playfulness, the fun of sex and I guess what we might call the important admin of sex, consent, boundaries, safety.

19:49Kimberley Wilson:How do we manage the tension between those two? It's a really good question. I think conversations about consent are really important and they don't have to be very scary conversations necessarily but I think it's really matters for us to be able to know what is okay and what is not okay and are we able to enter into this knowingly. I don't think we should ever get into a point where we just assume consent ever. Consent should never just be assumed but I think more transparent conversations about consent and boundaries are really important just as important as conversations about what we like, what we don't like, what's fun, what's not, try this, try that, do other things.

20:36Kimberley Wilson:So for everyone listening who might be thinking, I have absolutely no idea how to start this conversation. Sarah, where do they begin? I would say first point is to just really take a bit of time to think about what's going on for you, what's happening internally, what are you feeling, where's your context with stuff and what is it that you want to be able to talk about? And then I think it's about trying to establish sort of the right conditions for a good conversation. So think about when you want to approach that and how you want to do it. It doesn't have to be all serious and, you know, sat down in a formal sort of setting.

21:14I think if you can find a way of it being a bit more relaxed, that's even better. Try and kind of pick a time when emotions are not running really high, when things feel okay and good between you and you're wanting to kind of approach something and then I think you know think about positioning it as something together you know something to explore together something maybe about wanting to make what we have even better or wanting to explore a different way of thinking about something or looking at something or express how you're feeling about something you know I've been noticing that I'm dot dot dot whatever that might be try really hard not to fall into a trap of kind of throwing out accusations it doesn't feel like you do this or you don't do that because if we start to be critical usually it's hard for somebody to not get their back up at that point so try not to make assumptions or judgments yeah instead let's just try and be open about something i would say one of the big things is don't worry about how you're going to start the conversation necessarily you know it can feel awkward it's okay for it to feel awkward.

22:15So you can even start it with that. This is a bit tricky for me. I'm finding this a bit embarrassing or difficult to talk about, but it really matters. So I really want to. So can we just see how I get on or how we go with this? And I think it's just about really being able to get started. You don't need to have the thing you want to say fully formed. You just kind of need to get going with it and then try and relax into it. It's okay if somebody disagrees. It's okay if people find it a little bit difficult because what we're trying to do within that space is create a space for all feelings. So somewhere where people can be heard and understood.

22:53And that often does provoke emotion. Emotion is fine. It doesn't have to be catastrophic because what you're hoping for is a way of being able to talk about something that can be heard.

23:02Kimberley Wilson:Does it matter what the form is? You know, does it have to be a kind of sit down at a table conversation or could it be in the form of a game or a note or, you know, I don't know. Absolutely. A limerick. I'd love that. No, absolutely. I think that's really important. Sex should be fun, right? It should be something you enjoy, something you like to do. Conversations about sex can also be fun. They don't have to always be really deep and meaningful or serious. so you're absolutely right I mean if anything I would say that it's much easier to have those kind of conversations than a sit-down formal you know agendaed item on a Sunday night before work but on that if there's something important that you want to talk about try and find a time to do that where emotions aren't too high so not in the middle of an argument or maybe not in bed when somebody's trying to go to sleep or you know when sex hasn't quite worked out in some way unless it It feels like a natural sort of segue.