How one of Trump's biggest defenders became an outspoken critic

0:00I never thought that I would be speaking at a rally for Donald Trump. This is the fourth time I've done it. That is former Fox News host Tucker Carlson in October 2024, just days before the election that gave President Trump a second term. And it has felt not only like an honor and a privilege every time. When Trump first ran in 2016, Carlson emerged as one of his most reliable and aggressive defenders, championing the president and pulling the Republican base deeper into the MAGA orbit. Carlson continued to publicly support Trump throughout the first term and often campaigned with him in 2024.

0:36But then Trump pulled the United States into war with Iran. I love Trump. I campaign for Trump. That's Carlson speaking with India today in February of this year. I don't agree with this administration's Israel policy. I think it's terrible for the United States. It's terrible for the world. But it doesn't mean I don't love Trump. I do. As the war with Iran continued, that love Carlson spoke about, it's now in question. Here he is this week on his podcast. It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind, or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. Carlson went on. We'll be tormented by it for a long time.

1:09I will be. And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people. It was not intentional. That's all I'll say. Consider this. One of President Trump's biggest offenders has now become one of his loudest critics.

1:27From NPR, I'm Scott Detrow.

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2:40It's Consider This from NPR. New Yorker writer Jason Zengerle has followed Tucker Carlson for years. He's the author of a book about Carlson hated by all the right people. Zangerly says that while from time to time Carlson's support for Trump has wavered, this time is different. So my first response was, I feel like I've read this headline two or three times before. I remember those leaked messages where Tucker Carlson said he hated Donald Trump and then where he was continuing to support him. What to you is different this time? Well, a couple of things. One, the last time he said he hated Donald Trump, it was after he had taken some pains to maintain his distance from Trump.

3:16When he was at Fox during Trump's first presidency, Tucker was obviously a booster of Trump's, but he boosted his policies. He didn't necessarily boost the man, and he actually sort of made a distinction there, and he kept a little bit of a personal distance from him. This time around, though, especially after he was fired from Fox, he really aligned himself with Trump both politically and personally. I mean he was practically part of his 2024 presidential campaign. He had a real role in the administration in terms of suggesting cabinet officials and sub-cabinet officials. So for him to rebuke Trump the way he's rebuking him now, it's different because he was more aligned with Trump than he was last time.

3:56When you talked to us when the book came out, you said that when Carlson says something, you often wonder whether he says it because he actually believes it. I'm curious how you run these latest comments through that Tucker Carlson filter. I mean it's complicated. He believes it, and he's also sort of making a political move. I mean, I do think he is sincerely quite angry about the fact that Trump has gone to war in Iran. This is something that Tucker opposed publicly, opposed privately. He tried to talk Trump out of it. So he feels betrayed by that. At the same time, he is anticipating that this war is not going to go well and that it's going to disillusion a lot of conservative voters.

4:39and he is positioning himself to come in and say, you know, I remain true to this faith and I am here to redeem you. When you say positioning himself, do you think he's sincerely thinking about something like running for president? I do. I, you know, like the last time I was here, the only way I could have seen him running for president in the past would have been if J.D. Vance, who I think is someone he had a very close relationship to, if Vance sort of, you know, took a different ideological path and they were no longer in lockstep, I think the Iran war has completely upended that calculus. I think he probably thinks that Vance will be saddled with this war and that will make him unelectable.

5:19And yeah, I could definitely see Carlson running for president in 28. Is it fair to think of an isolationist policy and opposing the type of action like a war with Iran as like the rare ideological constant point in Tucker Carlson's career over the last few decades? I mean, he's changed on so many other different positions. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way he's talking about this, it's very similar to the way he talked about the Iraq war and the mistake he made in supporting that. And he has been a real opponent of interventionism. And, you know, and he, I think, sort of imputed those those beliefs onto Trump in a way that they probably didn't exist.

5:56And, of course, paired with what's going on with Iran right now is how Tucker Carlson thinks and talks about Israel. Yeah, Israel is very much at the center of this dispute with Trump. He's arguing that Trump is doing this at the behest of Israel, not because he considers Israel an ally necessarily, but because Israel is either physically threatening him or has sort of blackmail on him or has bought him off. I mean, he's setting up a real kind of stabbed in the back narrative about the U.S. and Israel if the Syrian war goes in a bad direction. And it's quite dangerous. I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who for a decade now have thought, this is it.

6:40This is what breaks up the Trump movement. This is what gets the MAGA supporters out of line. And, of course, every single time that hasn't happened. I want to play one clip from Jonah Goldberg, a center-right commentator who was speaking to Morning Edition earlier this week about not just Carlson but Megyn Kelly and Marjorie Taylor Greene and other people who are big on the media and online world breaking with Trump on this. They don't have a lot of wide support. It turns out that those people are essentially entertainers too and they don't command large swaths of the GOP electorate and they don't represent them either.

7:15What do you think of that? I think that's right. I think that Tucker thinks that MAGA is an ideological movement and that it has core ideological principles and that's what people who vote for Donald Trump are voting for. The flip side of that is that MAGA is a cult of personality and people who are voting for Donald Trump are voting because they love Donald Trump. And whatever Donald Trump says MAGA is, that's what they think MAGA is. Tucker is forcing this question. It hasn't worked out for anybody else who's tried to sort of break with Trump and, you know, claim sort of the mantle of the MAGA movement for themselves.

7:51But at the same time, no one of his sort of stature and his influence and with his following has tried it yet. So I think it bears, you know, it's worth watching. New Yorker journalist Jason Zengerle. His book on Tucker Carlson is called Hated by All the Right People. Thanks so much for talking to us. Thanks a lot. This episode was produced by Kyme Actomy and Karen Zamora. It was edited by Patrick Jaron Wadananen and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yannigan. Thanks to our Consider This Plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors.

8:26And they unlock bonus episodes of Consider This. You can learn more at plus.npr.org.

8:37It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. This message comes from Takeoff by IXL, the K-5 core math curriculum that continuously differentiates learning. Everything teachers need to personalize instruction is on Takeoff's digital platform. Learn more at takeoffbyixl.com. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Consider This Sponsor Free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get NPR Plus at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org.