Harsh Truth About European Startups ft. Joe Seager

29:01And that's been a bit of a headwind for UK managers, because as I mentioned, I think the EIF is about 10 times more active than the British Business Bank. So that has also created some complexity more on the LP side than the than the direct investing side. So it's harder to get access to raise from the EU, for example, if you're a British-based fund. Yeah, certainly from the sort of public institutions like the EIF. There are also kind of national-level development banks in each of the ecosystems. So you've got BPI in France, you've got KFW in Germany, and they typically want to see the capital that they're investing to go into startups in their local economy.

29:48So it creates a bit of geographic constraint that has to be managed. What, from your standpoint, what is the difference if US funds, for example, are predominantly maybe endowments, for example, right? Where they're raising from versus in across Europe where maybe your big LP holders are public institutions. How does that kind of change the dynamic or does that change the dynamic in terms of how you all would make investments? I think it can. I think probably the bigger challenge that we need to unlock in the UK is just that really – UK and Europe is to mobilize that sort of pension fund pool of capital and really get that flowing into the private markets and the early stage private markets.

30:38And there's lots of reforms and conversation around how to do that. But I think it's just maybe there's a cultural mismatch as well in that I think the US in general is much more risk on and much more willing to invest in asset classes like VC that have long term outcomes, which is great, but sort of limited liquidity in the short term. and I think we need to try and find a way to unlock that in Europe because I think it just creates a wider pool of potential investors for any given fundraise, right? So I think it's an important thing that we need to do and I think it's one of the reasons that the US, I think, is like more than three times the size of Europe from a venture funding perspective despite only being marginally bigger from an economic perspective in terms of GDP.

31:28And so I think that participation amongst private financial institutions into European venture funds is something that we need to work on. Yeah. I mean, do you think that then because of Brexit that London needs to become maybe more even more so a global hub or attractive in order to actually build LP bases beyond Britain? I think so. I think I wouldn't necessarily link it to the Brexit discussion. I think we have to be open to capital inflows from international markets, right? And I think we've got a lot of the key ingredients that you would look for. We've got incredible talent, we've got great academic institutions, robust institutions more broadly, good track record of producing great outcomes and unicorns and decacorns.

32:21So I think all of the components are there. I think the sort of geopolitical picture right now is obviously complicated and evolving. And I think Europe, even though we've left Europe, I think Europe, the EU continues to be a really important partner for us culturally, politically, economically. But the theory at least, the theory that we were sold in Brexit was that we could be more open, more globalized as an economy and attract capital flows from elsewhere. So I'd like to see that show up as well, given that was the promise of the... Do you think that has showed up yet or no? No, I don't think it has.

32:57Certainly not in the magnitude that was positioned during the referendum. And I think certainly not to a sufficient extent to offset some of the harms that have happened so far. So it's obviously, we've gone through the sort of torture over the last 10 years in the UK of relitigating the referendum because it was very tight. was 52%, 48%. And that was quite an unhelpful and unproductive conversation for a long time. So I think we kind of need to put that to bed a little bit, but also be eyes wide open on how it's actually worked out so that we can do something about it. How... Thank you so much for kind of giving us the landscape when it comes to, from the venture side, the LP base, when it comes to, and also from a deal flow side too, when it comes to investing in European countries, or investing in founders and companies that are based in Europe.

33:53From the company side, so your investments or even prospective investments, how has Brexit changed in terms of how they see going international? For example, is a British company more likely to actually expand not into Europe, but maybe to the US or other? Has that changed at all in terms of how they think of international? Does a EU company, for example, think, okay, I actually don't want to maybe UK is going to become later or delay expanding into the UK? Let's look at other markets. How has Brexit changed it from that perspective? I think there's a lot in there. And I think the answer probably depends a little bit on the specifics of the business model and the category they're operating in.

34:40I think obviously the US is, you know, it's the largest consumer market in the world. And so particularly for UK-based founders, I think given the commonalities of language and culture, there was always going to be on the radar to move into quite quickly because it's just such a massive opportunity. And obviously on the physical product side of things, that's been complicated through the tariffs and whatnot. And so maybe that's giving a bit more pause for thought for a lot of founders out there. But I think the US always has been and will continue to be, I'm sure, fundamentally quite an appealing market to go after.

35:18I think on certain sectors where there's more commonality in regulatory framework, for example, across the European Union, potentially it makes sense to scale primarily across Europe first. I think about something like Revolute, again, that fintech that I mentioned earlier. you know, they haven't really yet tackled the US in any meaningful way. And yet they've built an enormous business. And so I think because of maybe the banking sector, the regulations around that, and the opportunity that's unlocked again, from the fact that they kind of solved that complexity from day one, that was their hook.

35:54And so I think for them, the internationalization was more obvious into the European market. So we kind of see both, I think. And I think in terms of the europe european founders coming into the uk i think we gave the example earlier of the um you know nordic based founders they're going to tap out of domestic markets pretty quickly and so there's there's an obvious kind of internationalization choice sometimes that goes more into mainland europe to be clear that's not always to the uk sometimes just directly to the us so maybe sort of skips the us um but at least we at true like to position that we could be quite helpful partner in helping a nordic space business crack the uk market on their way to the us both kind of geographically but also culturally um there's a lot of similarities between the uk and the us and so they're getting it working proving the internationalization story in the uk to then raise the next round to really tackle the us is um is definitely a route that makes sense and i think you know there is a certain level of caution that has to be applied when you have a European company trying to crack the US, like they have to be well capitalized.

37:04It's very, very difficult to do it properly without having the funds to really go after it. And so that's certainly something that we would encourage our companies to obviously find test the market, test the waters as much as you can in a capital light way. But if you're going to go after the US, you kind of want the balance sheet to support that. No, that's very fair. It's very, very fair. I know that when we previously talked, we talked about how VC is a power law business. And obviously, you need to get into great companies. And those companies need to kind of have power law type dynamics in order for you all to be, for them to obviously be interested for true.

37:46Consumer is interesting because there's certainly a lot of polarizing thoughts in terms of is consumer venture backable? Is it not venture backable? not so much on the technology side, but more so on the consumer goods side, I'd say. I know that you're investors in consumer goods products. You're also investors, obviously, in consumer technology and retail tech and a lot of other things. How do you think about, because you're investing in a few different business models, some are inventory-based, right? Some of our pure SaaS businesses or pure software businesses. is how do you think about generating, you know, because ultimately you are a VC fund and you want to develop power law.

38:30How do you think about reconciling and managing these different types of business models and then evaluating to see if they can actually give you a power law return? I think as you said, I mean, I think we can put to bed the question of whether consumer can generate, regardless of the business model, can generate big outcomes because there's lots of examples you can point to across both physical products and technology where that's happened. Technology is probably obvious and top of mind for a lot of people. The consumer products side, probably a little bit less so, but maybe not for your audience.

39:02But you look at the kind of ollie pots and the roads and the on running from Switzerland. I mean, it's clear you can create billion dollar plus outcomes on consumer product based businesses. And I think the way that we approach it is because I think for a couple of different reasons, we have a very high bar when it comes to consumer products and we need there to be certain characteristics that we believe lead to a high likelihood of that real kind of power law outcome partly that's because we're investing very very early so we're investing at the sort of pre-seed and seed stage and I think there's a crop of the consumer products to the landscape where the fundamental differentiation if you if you dig under the skin is really about the brand and at that stage it's very very hard to objectively measure the brand strength and kind of prove that thesis out um and so i think there's a bit of a risk that it becomes a little bit more of a subjective judgment call based on how you know how i think the brand looks or feels or whatever and so i think that's quite hard to pick early i think it gets much easier when you're at maybe the series A or the series B stage where you've got a bit more proof around that brand you can understand the customer behavior the repeat the loyalty all of that sort of stuff to help you kind of build conviction that you're onto a winner but at the early stage it's tough and I think when you kind of combine that with quite a high loss ratio because they're early stage companies and the relatively capped upside multiple if you do get it right we found that the mass can be quite tricky to figure out the precedency stage on the consumer product side of things.

40:47As I mentioned, we still do them. I mean, we invest in them actively. But I think for us, we need to see something that's very tangible around the differentiation, whether that's unique IP or like a real category creation or a fundamentally different go-to-market edge for us to feel that that risk reward is kind of calibrated. As I mentioned, I think if we were investing a little bit later, we'd probably be a little bit more, our mix would be a little bit more on the consumer product side of things. But for the current strategy we're investing out of, that's why we tend to work more towards the technology driven opportunities.

41:24That makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, what sometimes I think can get lost in the consumer product side is certainly, as you mentioned, you can certainly get billion dollar, create billion dollar outcomes or, or billion dollar, um, or, or companies that are valued beyond, beyond billions. Um, I also, I remember had on, I forget which investor it was, but, um, talking about how you can still get a meaningful ROI from a company that's, you know, maybe at like that exits for 400 or 500 million, because maybe they've actually haven't raised a lot of capital too. And sometimes that gets lost a little bit when it comes to consumer products and that the outcome may not look as, I mean, still a$400,$500 million outcome is incredible, but it may not, it may still look like a quote unquote, like power law return or venture return.

42:16Maybe not quite the same way in terms of, of a technology business, just because those are, those can be, you know, just quite, quite different. Like, like, like maybe it's not like a hundred extra term, for example, but at the same time, because maybe there wasn't a lot of capital invested in the business, then you actually, from an investor perspective, you can still develop a great return for yourselves. I think that is definitely true. I think there's two embedded assumptions, though. I think one is that you can be, and the market can allow you to be, very disciplined on the entry price. So I think what we saw a lot in COVID years, right, in 2021, was things being valued as if they're software companies and they're not.

43:00And so there was a very high entry multiple. And then you're then fighting against kind of negative multiple arbitrage for a lot of the journey. And so I think you have to avoid that trap. I think the other thing is making sure that whilst they can be very capital efficient, you do also need to make sure that you've got good capital flexibility to deal with the swings of cash that can come from an inventory-based business. And so that's one of the things that I mentioned earlier, particularly if you're launching in the US, you want to make sure that you've got the balance sheet so that if you're a slightly missing plan or whatever, that's not going to catch you out from a working capital perspective.

43:36So they do need to raise enough to be able to absorb that shock. But absolutely, I agree. I think that you don't necessarily need it to be a billion dollar,$10 billion outcome to make great returns in consumer. This episode is brought to you by Glimpse. Glimpse is an AI powered end-to-end deductions management service that's focused on recovering revenue from KEHI, UNFI, Amazon and Target for consumer brands. They centralize deductions with backups. They fully handle disputing on your behalf, the brand's behalf, and streamline the accounting process. For more information, check out tryglimpse.com and let them know that Mike sent you.

44:14But what's interesting about the working capital side, I think, is now there's, I think, a lot of debt providers or debt services that have really come down market where you can actually have, you can actually get access to the debt markets, you know, quite earlier than you used to with some of the fintechs, for example, or other things, even though some of them haven't gotten great reviews for sure. But it's still a method that you could use that still means that you don't have to ultimately have the most expensive capital if your business is flourishing, which is obviously equity and using that equity.

44:56So I think that's actually interesting. And I totally agree about how consumer product companies were kind of valued as tech companies and really they just use technology as a distribution channel instead of it, but thinking that that was the actual product. But it's also interesting times because consumers kind of unsexy are out in terms of consumer products, valuations are down. So it also just could be an interesting time to actually invest in those areas from like that standpoint. Yeah, for sure. And again, I think that kind of, that pocket, like maybe slightly later, you've got a bit more data.

45:31Your multiples are starting to calibrate a little bit more towards reality and fundamentals. Like you can, there are, yeah, great. We've made great investments. There are lots of great investments that happen in the European ecosystem that are that profile. I think it's just maybe the earliest skew that makes it a little bit harder for us. I think on your, just on your point on the debt funding as well. I think that's probably another quite a big difference in the European ecosystem versus the US ecosystem. I think the US is probably more mature and more developed and that capital availability for consumer businesses is probably a bit stronger out there.

46:08So that's another thing that I think we need to figure out if we're building, you know, building massive consumer businesses out of Europe is how do you have non-equity capital to support these companies as they scale? How also do you think about, I know that, you know, maybe the mega trend across technology is obviously, you know, AI and LLMs. um how um what's your when you think about opportunities within consumer regarding you know ai and how ai might be you know um i know that you've i believe you mentioned before that ai is redefining the the consumer definition itself what is like ai mean to you in regards to um uh consumer what are some of the opportunities that you're seeing i think the it's important to say that not everything has to be AI, right?

47:01I think there's maybe a little bit of people forgetting that great businesses were built before ChatGPT came out and great businesses will be built after ChatGPT came out where the product is not AI. I think there's a separate point around, I think there's probably a reality that now that horse is bolted. AI will play a role in building and scaling companies of all sorts, consumer and B2B. So, you know, a consumer products company might not have the product as AI, but they're going to be using and deploying AI and helping them scale efficiently. I think what's captured the imagination on the actual kind of AI as a fundamental element of the product is that it kind of creates an opportunity where you can rethink almost everything at the same time.

47:47It's one of those shifts where, you know, from desktop to mobile or whatever, where there's fundamentally new capabilities that are being opened up that you can apply to consumer problems and consumer opportunities. And when we think about that, we kind of segment it into two. One is what existing kind of consumer markets and consumer experiences can be reimagined and fundamentally improved through an AI native approach. So we think about the fragmentation, for example, of online shopping, and you've got millions of tabs and open, and you're trying to compare manually and spending loads of time trying to find the right thing like that that in theory can go away with some of the sort of ai shopping assistants that we're seeing um that's a daydream or or others um the second category we quite like is like areas that are quite complex for consumers so things that are deeply research-based there's lots of comparison lots of consideration before the purchase which again takes a lot of time and effort from the consumer's perspective um so an example there is we've got a company in our portfolio called JITI, which is doing AI native property search.

48:55So it's re-imagining what it means to find your ideal property and then transact on that property using AI at the core. And then the last one is where we think that there's a sort of real need for personalization to the unit of one customer. Because I think historically personalization has meant roughly segmentation so we put you in a rough segment and we give that segment this rough product um because there was a minimum viable scale of the segment that you could serve with a custom product or a custom version of a product now with gen ai creating content you know for literally you as an individual you can in areas like consumer health and wellness for example you can get a fully personalized um one-to-one experience and there's going to be much better when you think about you know something like health and you've got maybe a certain symptom and a certain set of lifestyle factors and a certain set of genetics there's not a segment that's going to look exactly like you but all of a sudden if you are your own segment then then the experience is going to be much better so they're the kind of like the features of the existing markets that we quite like um i think almost more exciting in some ways is what new markets can be consumerized if you like that historically weren't available.

50:17Fundamentally, we think that one angle of that is how do you kind of alleviate supply side constraints for historically quite high cost to serve markets? So we think about things like therapy or tax advisory or private wealth management or legal services. You know, the kind of minimum viable scale of customer used to be so high that it wasn't really accessible to the broad base of the population. and so now by unlocking that supply side constraint using software you can open it up to the long tail of latent demand that wasn't big enough to serve as a as a person but is definitely big enough to serve as a as a piece of software um and then the other market and i think we're starting to see this already or we're definitely seeing this already is where you're materially lowering the barrier of entry to demand for that market so in that category we put things like vibe coding some of the creator tools like the sunos of the world and the european and the stand watch mozart and all of a sudden you've got a huge swade of customers that previously couldn't engage with that market because they lacked the tools the vocabulary the expertise and all of a sudden they can and i think that's really exciting because and i think that's where the blend of prosumer and consumer is starting to come in because these tools are they're so available and accessible now Whether you're a small independent creator or contractor or even just a hobbyist trying to hack together an app on the weekend, you can engage in that market in a way that you couldn't before.

51:43And those are really exciting. Where there's completely new market opportunities, completely greenfield, and we're seeing companies building really exciting products in that space. Now, I really appreciate you diving into all these different categories, different examples. Do you think that there's any consumer categories or innovation that's happening or needs to happen that might actually be more interesting, maybe just from a culture perspective, might be more interesting, for example, to Europeans, if we think about, you know, the EU, Switzerland and the UK, versus maybe the US consumer in terms of opportunities?

52:26That's a really interesting question. I think something I mean health healthcare is an obvious one where we have a very different set of yeah I guess like expectations and parameters around what good looks like from a healthcare perspective so in Europe a lot of the healthcare is publicly funded and so that creates challenges I think with educating the consumer from a willingness to pay perspective whereas I think because of the structure of the US market the self-pay market is a little bit more developed and so that's maybe an area where it's a little bit harder I think it's still possible, maybe a little bit harder in some ways to build a big business out of Europe.

53:05And I'm trying to think if there's other examples, but I think fundamentally consumers, you know, you go to the kind of seven deadly sins framework, whatever, like consumers are inherently quite similar and trying to solve inherently similar project problems, regardless of where they are in the world. And I think that's why, you know, one of the great things about consumer is that when you hit it, you can really hit it and you can hit it globally quite quickly. I mean, like Chatsup T is a great example, right? 800 million weekly users or whatever. And maybe there's kind of idiosyncrasies of how industries are structured or regulations are structured, which creates some complexity in that and differences in one market to another.

53:43But fundamentally, I think like wonderful experiences are going to scale across borders. No, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense in terms of some of the differences when it comes to the, from the healthcare perspective. I mean, what's also really interesting is just companies. I remember talking to somebody about how companies that are focused on health tech, they go to market as not through kind of the traditional insurance companies and kind of the traditional healthcare networks here in the US, but rather much more direct to consumer and much more retail. which I also think is quite interesting just as something that's different.

54:32Yeah, for sure. And I think we've had good outcomes on the healthcare side, like Aura as a Finnish company, and is obviously now doing tremendously well. So they definitely can be built. I think it's just that sensitivity to the go-to-market and the customer growth model is maybe particularly cute in healthcare. When a founder pitches you, what are some of the signals that you look for? I think the most important one from my perspective is when you feel like the founder has intellectually interrogated an answer and an opportunity, an opportunity, sorry, for their own benefit. So they're trying to figure out, I'm a super high potential person.

55:11I'm really driven. I'm willing to put in everything to something over the next 10 years of my life, because I think it's an enormous opportunity. And then the pitch almost becomes like helping us understand why they've built so much conviction. And it creates a really different dynamic and conversation versus this sort of pedestal approach of I am pitching a VC and I need to sell to them and convince them on something that maybe I don't have the depth of conviction on um and so I always find that that unlocks a different level and higher quality conversation with the best founders um so we really like that and then I think beyond that is all of the things that lots of people talk about right we want people who are monarchically focused on the problem that they're trying to solve particularly at the early stage because i think if you have a really crisp idea of the problem and an understanding around the parameters of what might be able to solve that problem you can pivot and you can move around much more quickly than if you fixate on an idea and a solution and then if that ends up not working you're sort of starting from scratch so we we try and really understand where their motivation to why they think it's a big enough problem worth solving and that's going to lead to a venture scale outcome and what's their ultimate inherent motivation in going after that opportunity some of it's financial but a lot of the time it's actually it's actually not um so we spend a lot of time on those two things um yeah do you ever do you ever come across founders where you maybe love the founder you love what they're building but you actually just you can't make the investment because you're not convinced it's venture backable.

56:52It can't actually generate venture-like returns. All the time. That happens a lot. And I think there's one school of thought which says, you know, the best time is figured out and they'll pivot in and they'll find the market. And I think that while that may be true, I think you have to be really disciplined with that approach because there are a lot of exceptionally talented people. And you could just get into a situation where, And some people have this model, right? They're just backing talent. Yeah. And they kind of pivot their way into an opportunity versus someone who's very kind of clear about what they're building and maybe rigid about what they're building.

57:32So I think for us, though, again, if we go back to like, how do we use our unfair advantage with the set to specialist approach in the model? I think it is helpful to have clarity in terms of how that's going to show up for the founders. as much for them as it is for us, right? Like we want to be differentiated capital on their cap table. We want to be the first call, the most helpful call. And if you've got people just sort of playing around and it could end up being, you know, something completely left field, that's exciting, but I'm not sure there's necessarily a reason why I choose on that cap table versus someone else.

58:11Totally. um so because i've had i've had investors say at the precedency level we back the jockey not the horse what's your point of view on that um i think so much in venture is like the truth is somewhere in the middle i think people really like to take the extreme polarized opinion because it is a great soundbite on a clip on social media or whatever. I don't personally subscribe to the idea that you can go, you know, fully market and if the market's good enough and the trends are right, then you could put anyone in there and they'd build a big business. I don't think that's true at all. I similarly think, you know, I think it's very different asset class, obviously, but I always think about the Warren Buffett quote, you know, when a management with a good reputation meets a business with bad reputation, it's the business's reputation that remains intact.

59:05I think there's truth to that. I think there are some markets which are just very difficult to build venture scale outcomes in. So I think you need to have both. I think the good thing is at the pre-seed and the seed stage, you don't actually need a whole lot else. I think if you have really high quality, talented, motivated people in a really attractive market, it doesn't necessarily have to be an obviously massive market from day one, but a path to a venture scale outcome through a wedge that can then expand. Then a lot of the other stuff takes care of itself. But I do think you need to maintain the search for more than one thing at once, basically.

59:46Well, Joe, I guess you're not going to go viral with that response. I know. That wasn't polarizing. That wasn't polarizing. yeah yeah that's that's that's not true i did not i did not say that and i say that um uh are there any markets that apart that are within your your sphere meaning consumer and then also retail tech but there are any markets within that that you would actually stay away from um meaning maybe for example is too highly regulated um maybe you're not allowed to invest in them period like um you know like for example we've had some some investors that talk about how they can invest in vice categories for example um just just curious yeah we do we do have some restrictions in our in our lpas around you know vice categories i think the irony is that one of the biggest european startups globally is only fans um that's mainly in london so i'm not sure whether the lpas are getting scratched and replaced off the back of that.

1:00:49But yeah, I mean, we're also quite a sort of purpose-driven fund. We're a B Corp, which is an accreditation. I don't know how big it is in the US, but it's an accreditation of a sort of commitment to broader kind of purpose beyond profit. And so I think we'd find it hard to invest in a vice category that we felt was fundamentally damaging to the consumer. But aside from that, I think the consumer is one of those great categories where it's all kind of specialties, if you like, where it's specific enough to get the benefit of the kind of pattern recognition across different businesses, but it's broad enough that it covers like 60 % of the economy.

1:01:31So it's enormous. And so I think there's lots of pockets of consumer that could be billion dollar outcomes. And so we try to be quite open-minded and let the founders surprise us with their ideas. We're obviously trying to be thesis driven in certain areas and trying to ideate around specific markets. But at the same time, the best thing is the thing that's the least obvious. And they can turn out to surprise you. So I think the North Star is, can we help? Does it make sense for True to be on the cap table? Are we going to be different and differentiated to our founders? And if yes, we're pretty open-minded beyond that.

1:02:08Yeah. I was going to ask if you're a bit more top-down or bottom-up in terms of your investment strategy but i'd imagine the answer is it's a bit of both there we go truth is somewhere in the middle my final question to you joe if you don't mind is what's one book that's inspired you personally and one book that's inspired you professionally oh um it's jane chison's autobiography and so partly he made a british entrepreneur so amazing um heck yeah partly i think it's such a case study in the tenacity and obsession problem obsession that is required i I mean, it's literally like thousands of prototypes to get to the first vacuum cleaner that worked.

1:02:47And now he's, you know, one of the most successful British entrepreneurs of all time. So I think that's really inspiring for me personally. Inspiring for me professionally, I don't have a solid answer on that. I think not necessarily inspiring, but a really thought-provoking book that I recently read is a book called The Technology Trap. and it's all about how technology evolutions through history have been adopted or not adopted fundamentally as a function of how equitable the distribution of the proceeds of that technology diffusion is. And I think it's really timely when we think about not only just the opportunity side of AI permeating more aspects of our economy and our lives, but also like some of the watchouts and some of the things we need to be thoughtful around in terms of managing that transition for people in the right way.

1:03:41Because I think it's very easy to say, you know, the techno-optimistic side of people will find other jobs and productivity will grow. And I think that's all true in the long run. But there's a transitionary generation that I think we also need to be quite thoughtful on in the short run. So probably quite a boring answer, but it's definitely one that has made me pause for thought recently in terms of particularly how this sort of venture capital industry needs to be thinking about that stuff. No, I really appreciate it. I'll have to check out Technology Trap. And I will say just like that, you went from being another one that recommended Shoe Dog to two books that I don't think have been brought up on this show.

1:04:20So you went from being one of the others to very original, Joe. Thank you. Joe, thanks so much for your time. This has been so much fun. I really appreciate you spending your Friday night with me. No, I've really enjoyed it. Thanks very much for having me, Mike. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:04:40And there you have it. It was a pleasure having Joe on the show. Joe, thanks again so much for sharing your story and sharing more information about True and some of the differences between Europe and the US when it comes to venture. Thanks again as well to Glimpse for sponsoring this episode. Glimpse is an AI-powered end-to-end deduction management service that's focused on recovering revenue from Kehi, UNFI, Amazon, and Target. So if you're a consumer brand and you're in Kehi, UNFI, Amazon, and Target, talk to Glimpse. Go to tryglimpse.com for more information. Thanks for listening. I hope this was great.