How She's Adding The Belgian Waffle To The American Diet...and 8,400+ stores with Anouck Gotlib, CEO of Belgian Boys

0:00Greg and I felt like it wasn't the right people, that other group. and we tore the dorm sheet. Greg was bringing back all these Belgian waffles and treats and what have you from Belgium in his dorm and to all his friends in college and then realized, wow, you can't really get this stuff in America. I had never done CPG. I had no idea what CPG stand for, right? And it was just like, Walmart gave us a shot in 65 stores. It was a logistical nightmare across 40 seats, but we wanted to see, does this work? How did you kind of think about these two things? And I get, Mike. The most beautiful rejection email.

1:02content. And if you want the full experience, subscribe to my newsletter at thegoodsumervc.com. I send fundraising updates of all the latest consumer deals that are happening, and you'll receive new episodes straight to your inbox. All content and episodes are for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not investment advice. Our guest today is Anouk Gottlieb, the CEO of Belgian Boys. Belgian Boys is bringing European treats like Belgian waffles, brioge French toast, crepes, and other delicious delights to the American home. They are now in over 8 ,400 stores, including Walmart, Target, Whole Foods.

1:41We discuss Anouk's journey from fashion to joining her husband in starting this food CPG company, how they first got into retail, what it was like years of bootstrapping to raising from Daniel Lebesky's venture firm Camino Partners, and also why they pivoted from frozen food to refrigerator food, and much, much, much more. This is a lot of fun. Thank you, Anouk, for coming on the show. Without further ado, here's Anouk.

2:12Anouk, thank you so much for joining me here today. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks so much, Mike, for having me. I'm so excited for our conversation today. I'm looking forward to it as well um really am and um congrats again on on kind of all your success and everything with Belgium boys um I wanted to start from the very beginning because I know that your husband's obviously an integral part of the story and and and really it was kind of like his um uh his idea in terms of getting the getting the actual business off the ground how did you meet Greg oh um how did I meet Greg you know you know how did they have you ever heard that a change of plane ride can change your life?

2:54For me, it actually did. So I actually met Greg on a flight from Belgium to New York. So Greg had graduated college. He went to college in Boston. He's originally from Belgium too. Went to Belgium to visit his family. And I was super young and excited to go for my fashion internship to New York City because I was studying fashion and I'm in New York, like one of the fashion chapters of the world. I was excited to, you know, that, that movie, the devil wears Prada, like that was me. And that was me. And on the flight, Greg was there. And so we met on that plane. It was back when Continental Airlines still existed.

3:41So we're vintage. I remember Continental very, very well. It was a good airline, right? It was. it was a good airline yeah yeah yeah i i yeah though for sure for sure for sure definitely they i think i've i think i've flown there from uh to europe a couple times too so um that's awesome um so i know that greg like maybe like part of like the idea behind belgian boys was greg was bringing back all these um belgian waffles and treats and what have you from belgium to in his dorm and, you know, to all his friends in college and then, um, realize, wow, like you can't really get this stuff in America and everyone seems to love it.

4:21And so created a business, what eventually became Belgian boys. And let me know if I'm, I'm incorrect there. Um, you ended up joining like the business a bit later, um, uh, and decided to leave fashion. Um, why, why did you leave fashion for, um, to actually, to actually join your, your, your husband and, and on, on this venture with Belgian boys? Well, when you ask a question like that, it's like, why? Why did that? But exactly, that's the story. And so my background in fashion, Greg was starting to ideate this idea. And I was telling him, okay, Greg, I can use my skills here. I can help you.

5:03Photoshop, Illustrator. Let me do that. If you think even of clothes, you pick something up from a shelf on the the rack because it looks good right and how can we apply that same thing to food I was like if it's not gonna look good people are not gonna pick it up so let's create something that looks good so that people will actually want to try it and to eat it and that was what I was doing that at night helping Greg do the branding the design the story behind the brand and really helping with that and then fashion listen I loved what I did I really enjoyed everything being creative I did everything from like sketching to ideating conceptualizing sewing but fashion is a very very toxic industry and that's what I felt and I remember this like yesterday I was uh we we went away and we got engaged and I was like the happiest girl in the world I wasn't expecting it we were young and I was like I'm engaged I'm engaged and I get back to the office and five days later I find myself back into my like oh she said this he said that and not feeling good about myself and I'm like how I had this like moment of like how is this possible I'm happy in my life why is this negativity coming on me and I gave my resignation and said I'm done I'm done with that the goal was to keep looking for another company but Greg was like why don't you do this with me I'm like I don't know we just got engaged like that seems dangerous but we said let's give it a try and if it works it works if it doesn't we'll stop because obviously our relationship is very important and we're going to want to do that a try well hey a business and two kids later we just celebrated our anniversary and like uh yeah we've been married for eight nine years now that's fantastic um what what did you feel like i understand you know prior to you joining you full-time you were helping out on the marketing the branding side and maybe bringing things that you've learned from the fashion world to CPG.

7:22What do you think, I mean, he talks specifically about what on the, on like, on the kind of skillset that you had in the fashion side, you were managed to bring, bring on the CPG side that you thought were like incredibly helpful and valuable to like build, um, uh, build maybe the brand identity from the beginning. Yes. I mean, I think it's also, I think it's first the creative approach. I have a creative mindset so I understood the this not only like hey this is the concept this is what we're gonna do think about like when a business person like briefs a creative this is the concept bring it to life I think the strength was that I actually knew the steps of what needs to happen as well in addition to that creative process from the conceptualizing to actually doing the photoshop the illustration and building that brand um and i think also the personal connection to the project and to the product with greg i'm also from belgium i understood i was bringing those treats with me and so really that personal connection that like yeah i get why this is missing in the u.s and really discovering it with him together like okay um but on you know fashion it's like on a piece of paper.

8:42That's what it starts with. Like you have a piece of paper and then you start drawing and designing and then you see a garment like there are so many steps in between. Not being afraid to start drawing. And that's the same concept that we apply to this brand. Like, let's not be afraid to put every idea on the paper that we have, every concept, go crazy. And then we dial it down. And that was the creative process that we went through initially. So looking at kind of every idea and then scaling it down instead of saying, okay, like this is a good one. Let's kind of, um, let's, you know, have this maybe be the brand and then kind of move along to like the next, the next thing in terms of like product development or, or what have you.

9:26Correct. Correct. I mean, also the color of the brand is pink. I mean, I wear pink all the time. Like you gotta, you gotta be bold to put pink as your brand color for a brand named Belgian boys that sells waffles and pancakes. and that's that's a decision that wasn't scary was was part of decision two was it what do you when you talk about for example like color palette were you were you also thinking about okay let's like let's look at like like like the uh competitive set and see what other brands are doing and how can we actually stand out and be different i mean i want to say that answer right now mike but like back then i had never done cpg i had no idea what cpg stand it for right and it was just like, this is the first time for us and let's figure it out.

10:11So yes, we were looking at a lot of stores, but it wasn't like, well, I think pink is going to stand out great. And it's better than yellow because yellow is ego. Like all these data points we didn't have back then and we didn't have the knowledge. So it was a lot of gut based decision. Love. That's awesome. So, and initially, what are you talking about like sales channels what was your first sales channel for your products well initially it was our car and we were just gonna go we're just going in manhattan like all the stores and just hey do you want our product like and lots of bodegas and like stores in the city because we were living in the city in new york and that was really what we were doing.

10:57And then our first hire was Robin. Robin, still with the company. She's amazing. She taught us so much, both to Greg and I. And her strength was specialty. And that's where we started with the specialty stores, with her guidance and her leadership. We went to the Jewel Osco, the Central market the hormones the whole foods of the world and um that was initially how we got off the ground what did you think that when we started maybe getting into retail what do you think um what do you think that they uh like pay attention to the most in terms of how you're able to actually get into um that particular retailer well the product just first of all it tastes delicious and it looks phenomenal right i think you can you can have the best trend and the best supplement and the best idea the end of the day the product is gonna taste good it was a product that was not on the market that they hadn't tasted before that was just not there and that european foods brought to the mainstream is a concept that appeals but it like can't just say oh this is cool let's bring europea european to the us like number one is taste and we 100 i mean i'm super subjective here but um our product tastes really really good that's why our consumer keeps but that's what we hear that's why our consumer keeps buying and they really become that household staple for the consumer i think originally it was probably the french accents that were like super convincing for the buyers.

12:33But, you know, there was also some backlash because when we started in those years, 2016-ish, 15, 16, a lot of the movement was like really leaning into better for you, better for you, better for you. And we were more like a bit indulgent, right? And that was actually something that was harder for us to get through because it was not with the trends. I think today, really, people understand like, what is it that we do? We're that trade up from an egg-o-waffle, from a Pop-Tart that the American consumer has eaten, but doesn't want to give their kids now that they have a family. And that has, I would say, been more of our selling story and what the buyer resonate to today than back then when we were there originally starting out.

13:28That's interesting. So it was kind of tougher to break through just because a lot of, especially on my natural channel, I heard Whole Foods in there in terms of early retailers. But in terms of actually getting into some of these stores, that was actually pretty tricky just because they wanted more of the better for you type products. And yet your product was just premium, amazing, delicious, um, you know, waffles, um, that were, um, that were great. Um, it wasn't, you know, maybe a better free product than that, you know, kind of mine in terms of also the marketing when it comes to, you know, that, but, but it was purely delicious, you know, and it was an indulgent, as you say.

14:08So that was, that was quite, quite challenging from that. And how, how also did you think about where the product fit? Because from the beginning, did you start off in the frozen section? We get there to that first meeting. We show waffles, pancakes, grapes. And buyers are like, oh, your frozen breakfast. And Greg and I look at each other with this smile. Like, yeah, we want to know what this is. I had never heard of frozen breakfast in my life, Mike. Like, what is frozen breakfast? Like, why would you freeze breakfast? Like, it doesn't make any sense. think about it as your own customer habits right what do you open when you make your like you wake up in the morning you go you make your coffee what do you open the fridge or the freezer the fridge most americans open the fridge so why do you stock up on an item that you eat every single day and if you think about your customer habits that experience in the stores where do you buy other breakfast foods that are complimentary you buy eggs you buy milk you buy yogurt you buy dairy it's all refrigerated so why do we go all across the store to buy frozen breakfast didn't make any sense but we were like oh no no we we want to be refrigerated but it was like no you frozen breakfast and we leaned in we went to frozen breakfast we're actually performing really good in frozen breakfast for many years, for the years after we started.

15:37And in our gut, we were like, this is not how the consumer is supposed to shop for our product. We need to be merchandised refrigerated. That's also how product is merchandised in Europe. There is way more options in refrigerated than in frozen. There is no option for frozen breakfast in Europe. and we didn't want to like stop and we were like that bugging annoyance that kept asking for refrigerated placements until finally we got our shot in 2019 we did a rotation at Costco went back to the redirect look look look see um like well you're doing great in frozen breakfast you're staying here you're bringing growth to my set um and then Walmart gave us a shot Walmart gave us a shot in 65 stores.

16:30It was a logistical nightmare across 40 seas, but we wanted to see, does this work? And we outperformed at Walmart refrigerated than we were doing at other retailers in frozen, more premium retailers. We're like, okay, we're onto something, right? And then we continue to lean into that data to grow our Walmart business to now 900 stores in four years and leaned in heavily with Target. Same. We started in 200 stores, grew that, launched at Meijer, launched at Publix, Kroger. And it's been really exciting the last two to three years. That's amazing. But from initially, you thought it was a refrigerator product, that it should have been a refrigerator product, but just that the American consumer was used to buying waffles.

17:23And also the retailers were telling you, hey, you're in the start off being frozen just to get those stores and get kind of in the door. And then eventually you had, you, you decided to, um, um, not pivot, you still have like a frozen section, but, but, but to introduce products that actually aligned with, with what you thought actually made more sense, which was in the refrigerated section. Exactly. And I mean, it's comes a bit full circle that, uh, this year, the CMA, which is a category management association, published a case study of refrigerated breakfast and with Belgium Moist as one of the brands to highlight there.

18:01I really am excited just about the thought of how does this retail landscape look like in five years? How will the consumer shop for breakfast food? And that aisle of refrigerated breakfast destination within the stores, that's what we're doing now with our retail partners. And the retailers don't want to miss out. So it's been super, after being told no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no for so many times, to now be able to work with the CMA, to work with leadership in the stores, to build the future of how that consumer is going to shop. That's a really exciting place to be at, and we're just getting started.

18:41so but from a perishable expiry date perspective is refrigerated a lot harder when it um versus frozen because i i presume that the the expiry dates it's much shorter span so your velocities have to be like a lot higher is that is is that the case oh it's easy mike like it's so easy you You know, you do this in your sleep, refrigerate it. Like everybody should do that. It's super, super challenging operationally. And from a team perspective, plus you're building a category that doesn't exist. So you're asking buyers to like understand things for the product. Go to the refrigerator for your waffles instead of going to the fridge.

19:25Exactly. And we need to date our products. So there's a lot of complexity, which is why we work with a retailer first on a smaller scale. and then we scale that to more source because we want to really understand how operationally the supply chain works to make sure like we're on a weekly ordering cadence. Our team's OTIF is like laser focused because we need to make sure that from an operation and supply chain and backend perspective, we're there to maximize. The velocities are there, it's supporting, but there's a lot of work that goes into the backend and we have an amazing team to do that.

20:01Got it. And so it is a lot more challenging being on the refrigerator side than being the frozen side overall from a supply chain perspective. And I know that you were bootstrapped, I believe, for this whole time. How did you navigate in terms of actually financing not this pivot, but this kind of product expansion to actually go from frozen to refrigerated? Because it sounds like you have to almost reinvent your product in some way. Yes. I mean, and really that Walmart 65 stores, that was our first go at it, right? And it gave us enough data to say, we have something special. And we know that this is what this company is supposed to do for the future.

20:47And I think that after we had the Walmart initial data grew from Walmart 65 to 300 stores, then launch at Target in 200 stores. That's when we have enough data to say, okay, from a bootstrap business now, we know what it is that we're going to do. We know where we need to invest, where we need to spend the resources. Now is the time for us to go out and raise capital. After that, after being in business for a couple of years already, we started the business in 2015 and we raised capital in 2021. So we bootstrap for a long time. This episode is brought to you by Propeller Industries. If you run a high growth business and you're focused on profitability, extending your runway and improving your operational efficiency, you probably need a finance and accounting whiz that will grow with you.

21:37Well, instead of hiring someone full-time, what would be cost-effective is working with Propeller Industries. Propeller Industries is a leading strategic finance and accounting partner for venture stage companies and has partnered with over a thousand startups and high growth businesses across consumer products, consumer tech, and enterprise. Propeller also provides specialized support for fundraising and M &A with transaction advisory services. Propeller's TA team of former investment bankers and investors can step in on more of a project basis when pursuing full-scale financing and M &A. There's a link to Propeller Industries in the show notes if you want to learn more information.

22:12So part of the reason that you felt you needed to raise was because from the product innovation standpoint and moving as well from the, um, from the form factor from frozen to, uh, uh, to refrigerated. What, what was, um, uh, talk to me a little bit about, uh, about the fundraise. What were you kind of looking for when, when it came to a partner? Um, how much, how much were you looking to raise? And, um, and also like, um, I mean, 2021, I'd imagine that's, um, that was the market was certainly, it's always terribly challenging to raise market, but it's, I'd imagine it was a little bit more, there was a lot more kind of money flowing in 2021 than there was today.

22:55But if you can walk me through like that whole kind of sequence of events, that'd be great. Yeah. I mean, like I said, we were bootstrapped for many years and we knew that we needed the money to really go out and scale our concept that we had product market fit for. So we knew it was the right time for us. And so Greg and I kind of, I remember we were sitting down and we said, okay, before we go out and had never raised capital, so I had no idea how to do that. But we asked a lot of friends in the industry, et cetera. And we're like, okay, before we go out, we need an advisory board because we need advice through this journey.

23:35And so we, Greg and I sat down and we wrote a list of who would be the people we would want on our advisory board. Of course, you're a CPG company. Daniel Lubetsky goes on that list, right? He's like role model. I'm like following him on LinkedIn, on this, on that. And I reached out. I reached out to Daniel through the Frontline Impact Project. or it was the project that remember in COVID, there were hospitals and there were brands that wanted to give. And so they created this matching project where brands could be paired with places that need it. And so we had been working with that frontline impact project for a year or so.

24:23So I reached out there. I'm like, hi, I'm, and I want to go. And I went, I got bumped up, up, up, up, up, up, up. Until I talked to Daniel's chief of staff. And I'm like, oh my God. And I get my, the most beautiful rejection email. It was, seriously, it was like such a nice email saying that wishing us luck and the best, that Daniel had lots of time commitments and this and that. And thank you for the work with the frontline, et cetera. So put that to the side, that story to the side for a second. continued on we had our deck and um just by connecting with people we got a lot of angels that were in interested in joining our adventure and we're like oh cool lots of friends from friends industry ex-founders and that felt really good so we were gonna do around half angels or we were going to actually raise$6 million.

25:27And we were, we had 2 million from angels and 4 million from another group. Five days before, and I think it's the first time I'm telling the story, but five days before that was supposed to go through, Greg and I felt like it wasn't the right people, that other group and we tore the term sheet um we had about 12 833 dollars in the bank account scary and went back to our angels and like hey we're doing this um and some of them didn't follow through and we did it and that was a long road of over 300 pitches and lots of small checks medium checks and um we went with our guts and it was absolutely the right decision um one and then And how did we get back in touch with Daniel's team?

26:37Actually, I pitched and someone said, this is not for me, but I want to connect you with Ellie Lanning, who's on Daniel's team. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. No, oh my God. And I was just like, such a long shot, never going to work. It's not going to be. and I was just like oh like ah um and that first conversation was great ended up being a second third or fourth then I met Daniel that was like the highlight and um we closed our round after that that's wow what a story what a story kind of first being rejected and then you kind of come back just had this gut that hey we need these people on our on our cap table we need Daniel we need comedio partners we need we need ellie um i was i was fortunate to have ellie on the podcast prior she's she's amazing yeah she's she's simply terrific um and um and and also like what i also appreciate about the story too is it seemed like you had a very clear reason why to raise capital in that you already had this market, uh, uh, this, this, um, you already had validation from these 65, uh, Walmart, Walmart stores.

27:59You now needed that to know, okay, we now need to move over to refrigerated, which is a lot more, which was, I mean, frozen is complex, but it seems like refrigerated is even more complex just because you have these, um, type, um, expiry dates and you kind of need to be on like a week per week basis, I'd imagine on the, on the velocity side too um and so you you had clear reason why you actually wanted to um you've almost have like product market fit but you need actually the money to actually scale you in these um across these retailers and of course i know you're now in like thousands upon thousands of stores which it seems like that i mean that's obviously incredible so it's it it seems to have worked so far yeah i'm very we're very grateful we're now in about 6 000 stores and continuing to to grow it at refrigerated breakfast and it's still nowhere yet right and really working with the retail partners to scale that and I'm very grateful to have amazing partners that truly believe in what we're building understand the complexities and that takes time to build something amazing right it takes time and you got to do it right and you can't rush through it because if you do it's gonna break and um really i think having that partner next to us that's built kind has been just phenomenal and i'm like i can't take that for granted it's really we're very very lucky and um very grateful you know one thing also that i remember greg and i said when when i had that like 300 pitches, lots of angels, big small checks, etc.

29:36One thing Greg and I said, it's like our rule, it's got to be people you can have dinner with two nights in a row and still want to go with for a third night. And it's like, is that your rule really? Absolutely. Because raising capital, you're getting married and you do not want to divorce. You don't. And then at the end of the day this is our life this is what we do I want to do it with people that I like to be around and I think people think that sometimes for like oh well it's like the absolute most important thing in my my mind it's like do stuff with people you love because together you will build something way way greater than if it's with people you just can't stand and that's why we just didn't go through with that first term sheet and decided to find our partners.

30:36Totally. And I think what's also kind of interesting when it came to, from that standpoint, is you were also open for guidance too, right? You wanted Daniel, you wanted his team part on your cap table. You wanted them as mentors, advisors, of course, being part of the company because you wanted people that have actually been there. I don't mean to be speaking for you, but it seemed like you actually wanted people that actually had been there, that actually had substantial success within CPG. You weren't just looking for money, but also people that you obviously respect, admire, and that you actually wanted part of this journey.

31:20Yeah. I think what I've learned, a lot that I've learned is it takes, I don't want to minimize but building a business from zero to two million three million etc not been there done that but like you can figure that out right i think taking that to the next it's like it's one thing to get on the shelf to stay on the shelf and build a brand that will create enterprise value that actually gets into the consumer lives and impacts them so much that they want to keep buying it it's such a different skill set. And that's where Greg and I knew we need to get the best experts. Next to us, people that have done that, that can guide us around, guide us through that.

32:06Because scaling a business is different than growing a business. And that's a big lesson. Also, what I find really compelling as well, just about the business story of Belgian boys, which a lot of companies aren't able to do this, is going from the natural channels in the grocery store to conventional, to the Walmarts, to the Targets, to those kind of areas. And so I was wondering, how did you think about, how are you able to kind of accomplish that? And secondly, how did you also think about price? Because typically the natural channels, and part of the reason maybe why a lot of companies have struggled or had a hard time going from conventional could be due to price.

32:52The natural channels as a shopper, it could be people that have more disposable income, higher earners or what have you. Where in conventional, I know that these worlds are kind of blending now, but that might not be the case. So how did you, and in terms of the brands you're kind of competing against, it can be from like a very different standpoint when it comes to price. So how did you kind of think about these two things? Yeah, it's a great question. and listen, I'll go back in history. When we started, we thought our consumer has been in Amsterdam and in Brussels and they want to be reminded of that experience of the streets and eating a fresh crepe in Paris.

33:34That's what we thought. That's who we thought our consumer was. And that's not who our consumer is. Our consumer is the mainstream consumer that is trading up from the everyday. We are incremental to their basket. And that was when we had like that aha switch. We saw what's in their basket. I remember looking at that Walmart basket data and I'm like, wait, what? That's our consumer? In our basket, there's eggs, there's refrigerated doughs like Pillsbury, all of those, Lucky Charms, boneless chicken, strawberry, Nutella, and pretzel crisps. And I'm like, what? That's like our consumer is like a family that goes on Saturday or on Sunday to do the grocery shopping.

34:26And that gets it like mom gets like a Starbucks in the store, walks around the store and every kid can pick one thing that's our consumer it's the everyday mainstream and finding I agree with you finding for that emerging brand the success in mass and grocery it's a brand appeal and at Belgium Boys it really works so much that that is the channel where we see our consumer being this strong consumer. And I think it's more of a surprise effect in the beginning when we found out, but we really leaned into that. That is where they live. That's how we market to our consumer. That's mom. Our mission as a brand is to spark moments of joy.

35:16That's our mission. And if you think about it, especially for mom, that moment when you wake up you gotta get yourself dressed you gotta get the kids dressed where is the shoe oh my god we forgot the homework um where where is the boots it's like what we have for breakfast it's not something we want to argue about i it's got to be easy it's got to be simple it's got to be feeling so that your kids and yourself walk out the door with like enough energy to go and get the day and especially for kids when they leave the door you don't know if they're going to be bullied if they're gonna have an awful day or if they're gonna have a best day you can control that first hour of the day and belgium boys contribute to that first hour having them live with a smile and that's a powerful message and i think that if you focus as a brand on who your consumer is and what you solve for them, that's when you're able to have that mainstream appeal.