In short
Rebuilding the American brand and, more broadly, how political campaigns (and by extension companies) create value through storytelling, messaging, and community-building rather than divisive micro-targeting.
Guest backgrounds
David Axelrod is a veteran political strategist and consultant; chief strategist and senior advisor to President Barack Obama; founding director of the University of Chicago’s Institute of Politics; distinguished fellow at UChicago; senior CNN commentator; co-host of Hacks on Tap. He has worked on 150+ campaigns over ~40 years.
Key claims
Candidates are effectively “brands,” but strategists should focus on comparative advantages for persuadable voters and craft a coherent message (not niche/divisive issues). Social media/data algorithms silo people; campaigns should target common humanity and community. The American brand has been tarnished by demonizing immigrants, dismantling foreign aid/USAID, and a “jungle” worldview that undermines trust abroad. Data/polling should be complemented by qualitative insight; campaigns are art plus science.
Notable examples
Obama’s “Yes We Can” (Senate and 2008) as an “about them” message; Hillary’s “I’m with her”; 2008 primary misstep using NAFTA/“traditional” attacks during the Texas/Ohio two-week window; Tom Vilsack refusing death-penalty attack framing and using direct-to-camera.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Business of Politics
0:30 to 1:24
Discussion on the parallels between political campaigns and business value creation.
“It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more.”
The Business of Politics
3:06 to 4:08
Discussion on the parallels between political campaigns and business value creation.
“This week, I'm thinking about the business of politics because the parallels between political campaign strategy and business value creation aren't metaphorical, they're structural and abundant.”
Candidates as Brands
4:08 to 6:00
David Axelrod shares insights on treating political candidates as brands.
“Across 40 years and over 150 campaigns, David may have thought more deeply about how you move people to take action at scale than almost anyone alive.”
The 'Yes We Can' Campaign
6:00 to 7:33
Exploration of how the Obama campaign used messaging to build a brand.
“And, you know, the process that I went through with candidates is trying to understand what their comparative advantages were with the folks who are going to decide the election.”
Democratic Marketing Challenges
7:33 to 10:59
Discussion on why Democrats struggle with marketing compared to Republicans.
“The parties were at each other's throats.”
Broad Appeal vs. Micro-Targeting
10:59 to 14:00
David Axelrod explains strategies for appealing to diverse voter bases.
“But the tagline of Yes, We Can made it about everyone, not about him.”
The Need for a Unifying Narrative
14:00 to 20:46
Discusses the importance of a shared community story in politics.
“And do you think it's that way, both at a national campaign and a local campaign?”
Rebuilding the American Brand
22:26 to 37:35
Explores the challenges and potential for restoring the American brand and ideals.
“Now, you've talked about against the algorithm.”
Rebuilding the American Brand
38:04 to 38:58
Explores the challenges and potential for restoring the American brand and ideals.
“It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more.”
Marketing Candidates vs. Products
39:39 to 42:05
Discuss the similarities and differences in marketing candidates and consumer products.
“But you do need the whole thing boils down to comparative advantages on things that people most value about toothpaste.”
Show all 13 chapters
Strategic Decision-Making in Campaigns
42:05 to 45:24
Learn how key strategic decisions are made in political campaigns.
“the Obama campaign as an example, but, you know, my business partner, David Plouffe, was the manager and managed, you know, a lot of the operations of the campaign.”
The Importance of Authenticity in Storytelling
45:24 to 48:24
Discover the role of authentic storytelling in political campaigns and branding.
“Well, to your point, you need to get 51%.”
Creating Positive Change in Media
48:24 to 52:39
Understand how to create humane social media brands that challenge negativity.
“So actually on that, and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I've got two questions for you.”
Transcript
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2:00David Axelrod:What is the story that holds us together? What is the story that most of us share that allows us to have a sense of community rather than a sense of adjacent parts?
2:23I'm Seth Matlins and welcome to Create or Destroy Reimagining Marketing. It's my new show exploring how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but everyone, either contributes to value creation or destruction. And it's about how the only value that ultimately matters is how valuable your customers think you are. All of which is why marketing has to be reimagined as an organizational mindset, not just a function. Each week, I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people who are building, breaking, and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it.
3:02It's a business show. It's a marketing show. Creator destroys the show that argues they've always been the same thing. This week, I'm thinking about the business of politics because the parallels between political campaign strategy and business value creation aren't metaphorical, they're structural and abundant. At a fundamental level, a campaign's an enterprise where every decision, what you say and don't, who you hire, where, how, and when you show up or don't, what you refuse to say, the baby or the donor you kiss or don't, either builds value with voters or destroys it. And voters, they're customers who all only get to buy what you're selling on just one day, and you need 51 % of them.
3:43To unpack these parallels, I'm sitting with the legendary political strategist and consultant David Axelrod. He was chief strategist and senior advisor to President Barack Obama, the founding director of the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics, and he's currently a distinguished fellow at the University of Chicago, a senior political commentator for CNN, and the co-host of the Hacks on Tap podcast. Across 40 years and over 150 campaigns, David may have thought more deeply about how you move people to take action at scale than almost anyone alive. So, David, I want to start by asking you a couple of questions about brands.
4:25It's going to come at you in two parts. And specifically about what you've learned about their role in value creation and getting people to turn out and buy in that moment, right, that is a GOTV effort. First part of the question is, I want to talk and get your take about the candidate as brand, right? And how, as a political strategist, do you think about this? And what are the steps that you take to take a candidate that maybe we don't know particularly well and turn them into something of a brand? or to use George Lakoff's context, you know, frame them as something of a brand and turn the product that's the candidate into something more sellable than perhaps they'd be without it.
5:15David Axelrod:Well, this won't make me unique, but I once was screamed at by Steve Jobs because he, at the beginning of the Obama campaign, after telling me that my industry was crap and so on, And he asked me what our communications plan was. And I started talking to him about it. And, you know, he interrupted and so on. And I said to him, Steve, you know, selling presidents, it may be just a little different than selling computers. And he hung up on me. So, you know, I'm always reluctant to speak of candidates as brands. But there's no doubt that they are. And, you know, the process that I went through with candidates is trying to understand what their comparative advantages were with the folks who are going to decide the election.
6:15David Axelrod:In other words, I would focus on not the people who I knew were always going to be for us or the people who were always going to be against us, but those people who were persuadable. Because you can say a hundred things about someone that are all real and authentic, but what are the two or three that are the most meaningful and how do they cohere in a message that people can grasp? And that's the process that I always applied in campaigns. And certainly that was the case in the Obama campaign. Who is this Obama you speak of? Well, you know, that's what everybody was asking. At the time, yeah. Back in the day.
7:07David Axelrod:But, you know, he when Obama, he really you have to look at his rise from 2004 through 2008 began with his Senate race. And it came in a time when the country was deeply, deeply fractured by the Iraq war and by a sense that Washington was, you know, just at each other's throats. The parties were at each other's throats. They were gridlocked. They were very self-interested. And here comes this guy from the outside who challenges the whole gestalt of Washington, the whole, you know, red versus blue, who's up and who's down kind of theory of Washington. And the idea that we, you know, that we can never deal with any big problems because of it.
8:05David Axelrod:And so the first ad, Seth, that I ever did for Barack Obama was in his campaign for the U.S. Senate. And it was a biographical ad, and a lot of it was about things that he had done in his life, you know, first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, things he had done in public life where he took on an issue that people thought was unachievable and helped achieve it. all building up to him saying, and now they say we can't change Washington. Well, I'm Barack Obama. And I approve this message to say, yes, we can. And yes, we can became the sort of tagline for much of what we did moving forward.
8:55David Axelrod:In fact, it's one of the words that's embedded in the side of the Obama Center that's opening in June. And what we were playing against was not just opponents, but against a whole political climate at the time where people were deeply jaundiced about the system, about the ability to get things done. And where politicians were not trading high and were seen as sort of self-interested parties, were seen as self-interested. Almost seems nostalgic today. So, Yes, We Can was, it was both optimistic and it also was about them and not just us. And what we wanted people to - I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say - People.
9:48Yes, the voter.
9:50David Axelrod:People, yes. You know, in 2008, I'm always reminded Hillary's slogan was, I'm with her. That was a tagline they used a lot. And his was, yes, we can. And it was not about him. It was about them. It was about what we could do together. And there was just a yearning for someone who could lead such a movement. So I always think back to that race in 2008. And, you know, we were the insurgents. We were the grassroots candidate. We were challenging what essentially was the big brand in democratic politics, Hillary Clinton, the Clintons. but they made a series of strategic decisions one of which was you know there were posters everywhere saying I'm with her to try and tie into the fact that she would be the first woman we didn't ever reference the fact that he would be the first African-American president we figured if people were motivated by that they would know yeah it was it wasn't we didn't need to remind them.
11:01David Axelrod:But the tagline of Yes, We Can made it about everyone, not about him. And it was very positive at a time when people were very down and jaundiced about what politics was and what it could produce. And so, you know, that kind of, it was built on the essence of who he was and the story we told about him from the beginning. And so we had a solid foundation for the theme. I want to come back to Hillary's campaign in 08 in a minute, but I want to ask you about something you said earlier, which is in building the brand and refining the message, we're going to talk about you as a storyteller as well.
11:54You talked about trying to figure out what resonates with whom. Now, about two or three years ago when I was still at Forbes, I set out to write a piece that I never did about why the Democrats, by and large, suck at marketing, at least when compared to the other party. And they just do. One of the things that my research led me to from a bunch of people who are far more informed about it than I was is they all agreed with the premise. What they said is it's because the Democratic tent is so big. There are so many constituent groups that you have to appeal to that figuring out what to say to every that pulls everybody in as opposed to what you have to say to pull in this group and this group and this group and this group all based on identity is is a real challenge.
12:40Right. The Republicans tend to have, in America, obviously, a more cohesive base. And so the comms challenge is a little simpler. And I'm wondering, A, if you think that's right, but B, given, to the extent you do think it's right, given how many identity groups there are, how many different types of people make up the Democratic coalition, how do you figure out what's going to resonate with Johnny and Sally?
13:08David Axelrod:It's a question of whether you think that the, you know, whether you can assemble piece by piece your base or whether you emphasize those things that talk, that speak to the largest number of people. And our theory was always that we would do that. I mean, you know, we would have conversations with different constituencies, but as I said, we never emphasized the fact that he was a black candidate. That was obvious to everyone. And we really kind of stayed away from a lot of sort of divisive social issues or niche issues because there were some big issues that everyone shared, concerns that everyone shared.
14:07David Axelrod:And what we were pitching and what we believed was that we should speak to the common experiences of large numbers of people who were struggling in the economy, who were opposed to the war, who were fed up with politics as usual, rather than this sort of micro-targeting that I think is a flawed way to approach campus. campaigns. And do you think it's that way, both at a national campaign and a local campaign? And why? I mean, look, primary elections are different than general elections. And, you know, they're all there. There are different circumstances. And I'm not saying that you should not, you should not, you know, try and appeal to groups of voters who are important in a party or or not, you know, or generally, but you should not do that to the exclusion of a larger story.
15:08David Axelrod:What is a story that holds us together? What is the story that most of us share that allows us to have a sense of community rather than a sense of, you know, adjacent parts? Do you think that that approach is – will that approach work at a national level moving forward in a country that, as I said before, nostalgic for 08 when people were divided? That seems like the halcyon days of division. Yes, yeah. As opposed to today. Well, I mean, one thing we're fighting, Seth, is we live in an age of social media. We live in an age of big data and algorithms that thrive on separating us and shoving us into silos.
16:03David Axelrod:I actually think we're reaching a point where it's possible that a candidate in 2028, for example, could actually run against all of that. And because I do think there's a I think that people we are sort of oftentimes against our wishes, even our awareness. We are being shoved into silos. But I also think there's a weariness with the kind of siege mentality of our politics today. The sort of constant battling that we have. And I do, I think now it could just be that I am a, you know, unapologetic idealist about what democracy can be. But I think people also hunger for community and we've lost community.
17:01We have faux community, but we don't have real community.
17:05David Axelrod:And I think people are, and you know, the president is sort of a human algorithm. He finds those things that divide us. Or an inhuman algorithm. Sorry if my bias is showing. Well, yeah, it's not very subtle. But his view of leadership is exactly that you find your community and you animate them by creating straw men and draw everybody outside the circle who's opposed to you in ways that galvanize people. I think that there is every election, I can tell you, I mean, this is my very, very strong feeling based on my experience. Every presidential election, interestingly, oftentimes mayoral elections too, but every presidential election, especially when the incumbent is leaving, is about the incumbent who's leaving.
18:06David Axelrod:And it's never that people want to replicate what they have. They always want the remedy to whatever they see or the deficiencies in the person they have. But one of the deficiencies that Donald Trump has that is that is deeply felt is he is a very, very divisive person. And I think that a candidate who tries to draw, you know, our draws together is going to have is going to is going to develop a following. So I think the answer to your question is yes. I think it's possible that especially by making the algorithms, the social media platforms a target for criticism. And I think that there are a lot of people who may feel that it's time that we rein some of that in and that we find our common humanity.
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21:27I hope you're right. But implicit in what you're talking about is something that a lot of the marketers in my audience will be familiar with, which is the binary of should we be for something or against something, right? So back in 08, Obama was for, right? He was for change. He was for the change that the collective and the community could bring and what could happen and be done from that. Yes, we can. To your point about the current administration and really the way he's operated for, you know, at least the last 10 years. Yes. He's against, right? He's against whatever's not for him. And, and I'm wondering, do you go in, you know, you refer to yourself as an, I think as an eternal optimist.
22:16Um, I'm not sure you said eternal. As an idealist. Idealist, yeah. As an idealist, do you consider, though, yeah, we can be against something, too? Now, you've talked about against the algorithm.
22:30David Axelrod:Yeah, no, no. Look, I think that there is plenty to be against that doesn't pit you against your neighbor. Right, right. Good distinction. You know, so, I mean, there are forces that should be challenged. You know, we are awash in money that translates into power. That should be challenged. You know, the algorithms should be challenged. The fact that we have AI rolling out as quickly as it is without any serious policy about how we're going to create some guardrails in a mechanism that is taught to think like a human being. people, but has no moral or ethical construct. I mean, there are all kinds of things that we should be against in the service of reform that is really important if we're going to advance as a country, but pitting ourselves against each other, neighbor against neighbor, you disagree agree with me, I think you're going to destroy America.
23:44David Axelrod:I think you're evil. I don't recognize your common humanity. I think people are tired of that. And I can't make an empirical case right at this moment, but I see a lot of focus groups and I hear a lot of discussion and I feel there is a weariness of it. I think actually decency is going to have its day. I think people are so tired of who Trump is and how he operates that humility, empathy, integrity, honesty, the ability to unite rather than divide. I think those are going to be at a premium in 2028. And the person who emerges is going to reflect those qualities. Well, I certainly hope you're right, but it's a great segue to actually the second part of my first question, which is, you know, about brands, which is, um, I used to say back in the day that I had two favorite brands, Santa Claus in America, Santa Claus, because where else could you see parents lining up for hours to put their children in the lap of a strange man just because he was wearing an outfit, a red outfit with a beard?
24:54Like, that's the power of a brand. But also America, because even back in the day, we still stood for something despite the contradictions in some of our attitudes, our behaviors, rather. Again, coming at this with a very biased, progressive perspective To me, it seems the last 18 months have done more to tarnish the American brand Than at any time in my not-so-short life And I'm wondering what you think the value of the brand of America has represented The actual value in terms of policy and politics and getting shit done around the world And if you see a way back from it
25:37David Axelrod:Well, look, I think the American brand has been, you know, flawed as we are because we're human and we haven't, you know, we haven't always lived up to our best ideals. But we've done awfully well compared to, you know, other societies in the long march of history. and it's reflected honestly in our success that, you know, one of the tragedies of the last few years is the degree to which immigrants have been demonized. There's always been a sense that America is a place where you can make it and we'll have the freedom to make it. And now we are basically, instead of that great inscription at the base of the Statue of Liberty, You feel like she, instead of a torch, should be holding out her hand and telling people not to come.
26:38David Axelrod:That is a very destructive impulse, and it certainly undermines our brand. And there are many other ways in which that is true. I speak, by the way, as the son of a refugee from Eastern Europe who came here with nothing when he was a child. And one generation later, I was the senior advisor of the president of the United States who happened to be an African-American man. So, you know, that is part of the American mystique. In fact, I will tell you that when we were talking about Obama running for president, Michelle Obama said, what do you think you can bring that no one else can bring? And he said, well, I don't know, but there are a lot of ways to answer that.
27:19David Axelrod:But he said, there's one thing I know. He said, when I take that oath of office, millions of young people look at themselves differently and their prospects differently. And the world will look at us a little differently. differently. His election was an affirmation of America at its best. The ability to progress, to self-correct, the idea that really anybody can succeed. All those things have been tarnished. You know, there are practical things about us being a world leader in terms of research and development and technology and all of that. That's all at risk. I mean, there's a lot, but at the core of it were the values that we're celebrating in the 250th year that cherishes freedom, freedom to worship as you would, freedom to pursue your dreams.
28:21David Axelrod:and we need to use the occasion rather than celebrate the mad king we have today to celebrate the values that animated those founders 250 years ago. And I, you know, but I'm not going to, you know, I said I'm an idealist. I'm not a nut. I understand that we have greatly devalued the American brand. I keep telling people that the blast radius from this administration is going to be felt for generations to come, and it's going to be the work of all of us in the future to rebuild that. The destruction of USAID and foreign aid, and I know foreign aid is politically a very, very freighted subject because people have this notion that we're giving tons of money away to Yeah, it's philanthropy.
29:14David Axelrod:Yeah. But it and it is in a way philanthropy. We've saved millions and millions of people all over the world from starvation and disease. We've also in doing it won the goodwill of those people. We've also in doing it prevented conflict that and disease that would ultimately wash up on our shores. That's why I think of it less as. I mean, obviously there is some philanthropy in it, no doubt, and as there should be, but I tend to think of it more as cause marketing, which is you're doing well by doing good, right? There is a benefit to us by doing what we do for others. And I think that you know this better than I by exponentially, but we've reduced things not to their least common denominator, but to their actually, you know, their absolutely fucking stupidest denominator.
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30:11And foreign aid is seen as, you know, we're not getting anything back.
30:15David Axelrod:Well, it was done in like overnight by a bunch of, you know, gamers and Elon Musk who knew the cost of everything and the value of nothing. And I think it will go down as one of the stupidest decisions, foreign policy decisions in the history of the country. But here's the fundamental issue is that Donald Trump has a philosophy, and that philosophy is the world is a jungle, and the strong take what they want, and the weak fall away, and rules and laws and norms and institutions are for suckers. And that is a very dangerous philosophy. That is the philosophy of Vladimir Putin. And, you know, to the degree that he has bent the U.S.
31:09David Axelrod:government to his philosophy and operated that way, it's been a blow to American democracy, but also to America's brand in the world. Because people, you know, why are we the default currency and why are we, you know, we were viewed as the reliable country, the country, a country that people could count on, even if they had disagreements with us to operate a certain way. And that has been, you know, there's been great doubt caused by it. So that is something that we're going to have to work to repair. Because as we're learning in Iran, having the biggest army is not the end of the story in a very interconnected world.
32:02I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier, kind of in passing, you see a lot of data. You've seen a lot of data for, you know, the breadth of your career. I'm wondering two things. How do you use data to figure out what people actually value as opposed to what maybe they think they should value, right? Because, you know, what's the famous quote, which is the moment you ask the question, you change the answer. And what I'm really interested in is, like, are there moments when you've absolutely ignored the data and found, you know, a lot of value accretion because you did?
32:43David Axelrod:Well, I'll tell you something. My mother was a newspaper reporter who ultimately, when her newspaper folded, became one of the pioneers in qualitative research. Oh, is that right? And she was the qualitative director for Young and Rubicam. Really? Legend. And but so I grew up like in this focus group culture. And when I became involved in politics, I was a real devotee to qualitative because ultimately and part of this is, you know, I'm a I'm a journalist by training, too. I want to hear in people's own words what's going on in their lives, what's important to them, what are the challenges they face.
33:33David Axelrod:We, during the presidential races, and the second one in particular, Joel Benenson, who was our poster, also ran this ongoing ethnographic kind of project where people were just journaling. and we learned so much from all of that that helped shape the qualitative but the qualitative wouldn't have been a i mean the quantitative i should say the polling but it wouldn't near it wouldn't have been nearly as rich campaigns and messaging and campaigns is an art as well as a science. And you need to have a feel for what people are telling you. And I worry a little bit that we've become so empirical that we test everything.
34:25David Axelrod:And if something does a tenth of a percentage point better than the other thing, then we're going to go with that and so on. And, you know, and I think that we are we are burying ourselves in analytics in a way that that destroys the the art of of of marketing. I'm wondering, agreeing with you completely. And there's a great quote from a great I think he was must have been an admin, British admin, David Abbott, that I'll paraphrase, which is if you A, B test two things that suck, one's still going to win. Right. And I'm wondering, and I didn't know that about your mother. And, you know, I imagine dinner table conversations were pretty rich and interesting.
35:09Do you think of yourself as a marketer?
35:11David Axelrod:No, I think of myself as a storyteller. Yes, I mean, I was in the marketing business for sure. And, you know, I only resist terms like marketing and brands because out of reverence for the mission of what politics should be. And I never wanted to, you know, there was a great book in 1968 called The Selling of the President by Joe McGinnis about how they marketed Richard Nixon and so on. You know, that and it was a really interesting book. And they did, they kind of, they sanded down the rough edges on Nixon. They put him on laugh and they did some things to make him. Hand rested and ready. Human.
35:58David Axelrod:Yes. more human for his, for, for voters at the end of the day, they, they won the race through not so subtle racial appeals, but, which was very much consistent with who Nixon was. Yes. But so I resist those terms, but obviously when you, We are trying to make a sale. I mean, and it's very intensive because you can have a product that lives for decades. In an election, you've got a matter of months, you know, maybe in a presidential race years, but generally a matter of months. And people are going to have a choice and they are going to decide. And it's binary. And it's binary. And so you really need to think about that.
36:55David Axelrod:And so I always used to work back from what do I want people to be thinking when they walk in that polling place? What do I want them to think about? Not just my candidate and the other candidate, but what is the choice about? Mm-hmm. And I tried to drive those conversations that way, you know. Which I think, at least from my seat, makes you a marketer. And, of course, you're a marketer. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And I'm wondering. I'm a self-loathing marketer. Yeah. Aren't we all?
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39:38um i'm wondering what parallels do you see um two or three maybe um between the the selling of a candidate and the selling of of toothpaste right which is you know where do you see the parallels
40:00David Axelrod:or where do you see the disconnects well the i mean the parallels are what i just referenced which is people are going to make a choice there there are a lot of brands of toothpaste so what is it what are the qualities about your toothpaste that appeal that would appeal um incrementally Yeah, it's different because you don't have to get 51 % of the market when you're selling toothpaste. So it's a little different in that way. But you do need the whole thing boils down to comparative advantages on things that people most value about toothpaste. Yeah. And so what is it about your toothpaste that matches up with their essential needs and desires relative to toothpaste?
40:57What I think is interesting about the references, you know, if you compare a lot of the marketing that a lot of toothpaste just to stick with it do, they're all kind of marketing the same thing, which is, you know, a better smile, fresher breath and whiter teeth. And I think the product and service, the inhumane, not inhumane, the non-human product and service marketers too often, they're just saying the same effing thing over and over again. Right. And not finding that source of competitive differentiation or kind of that strategic way in, which is actually where I want to go next, which is in the description of your podcast, Hacks on Tap, which for our listeners is available everywhere you listen and on YouTube if you choose to watch.
41:42And brought to you by Vox Media. And brought to you by our shared partners at Vox Media. You invite the listener to know, quote, what's going on behind the scenes and where strategic decisions are being made. say, pull up a stool. Where are strategic decisions being made?
41:59David Axelrod:Well, in a good campaign, there's usually a strategic hub. There is a, you know, I'll use the Obama campaign as an example, but, you know, my business partner, David Plouffe, was the manager and managed, you know, a lot of the operations of the campaign. I was the, you know, the kind of message strategist. I managed that part of the campaign, but there was a core group in my group that involved a pollster. I did an interesting thing, I think. It was interesting to me anyway, but normally you'd hire a pollster and that pollster would do both the qualitative and quantitative. I hired a pollster, Joel Benenson, and a qualitative guy, David Binder, who was a brilliant, brilliant qualitative researcher.
42:56David Axelrod:He does polling as well, but I hired him only for purposes of doing qualitative, and he was on the road doing three focus groups a night around the country. But when we had to make key strategic decisions, Plouffe would be there, I would be there. If we wanted the research guys in there, they would come. But it wasn't a large group. And oftentimes in the campaign, it boiled down to Plough and me and the candidate. And that's the way, I mean, someone has to drive the train. And if you have the one sign of distress in a campaign is if 20 people are sitting around a table trying to make a strategic decision.
43:45Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I'm wondering, and let's, I mean, you've run what, and advised something like 140, 150 campaigns over the last period of your career. You got a story, and let's think at a smaller, smaller than presidential, of where you made a, you look back, you're like, that was the wrong strategic decision. The consequences were just not what you anticipated.
44:12David Axelrod:I imagine, I'm not a woman, but like childbirth, you remember the pleasure and you try and forget the pain.
44:23David Axelrod:You asked me for not a, let me give you a presidential example because it travels. We had a two-week period in March of 2008 when we were running against Hillary Clinton and Texas and Ohio were voting on the same day. if we had won either of those, she would have had to, and they said, we'll drop out if we don't win those. We spent a lot of money and time and effort trying to win in those two weeks, but we also changed what we were doing. And we went after her in a very traditional kind of way. You know, we hooked her up to NAFTA and we, and it became a very sort of familiar and dreary kind of campaign for those two weeks that was completely antithetical to our brand.
45:13David Axelrod:It was antithetical to our brand. And we lost both those and we deserve to lose both those. And we learned from that. But I'm sure I can think of analogous situations from smaller campaigns as well, because, you know, in these kind of dynamic situations, you're constantly making strategic decisions, maybe more so than in brand advertising or brand messaging because of the kind of the pace of political campaigns and the calendar of political campaigns. Well, to your point, you need to get 51%. And you don't often have, I mean, I guess you do somewhat, but it's less common to have the, you know, one toothpaste going negative on the other toothpaste.
46:09David Axelrod:It happens, but, you know, you are constantly under fire from the other side. And if you're not, it's because you're not doing very well. So that's something you have to respond and react to. And how you do it is really important. You know, I ran a campaign for Tom Vilsack, who became the agriculture secretary later, but governor of Iowa. And it was forever an attack that Iowa Republicans ran against Iowa Democrats, that Iowa Democrats opposed the death penalty. and they came at us on that and they used the example of a small child who had been molested and killed. Some horrible story. And they said, you know, if Tom Vilsack were governor, he would not give that person.
47:00David Axelrod:It may have been a fictitious story, the death penalty. And there was a panic among Democrats there and they said, you've got to fire back. You got to I hit him back on his crime record and this and that. And my instinct was, no, that's not part of our brand. That's not who we are. Vilsack was very much in the same kind of, you know, category as Obama. He was, you know, tonally in that same place. And instead we did a direct-to-camera in which he said, you know, my opponent is running ads that, you know, are offensive to me as a husband and as a father. You know, that's his plan to win this election.
47:52David Axelrod:He says, but you know what I want to talk about? And then he went on to talk about their lives and where they differed on stuff. And it finished with him saying, my opponent's counting on 11th hour attack ads to win this election. I'm counting on you. And it was very, very powerful. Yeah. You know, so part of it is understanding how to respond within the context of your message. So actually on that, and we just have a couple of minutes left, and I've got two questions for you. So the first is, I referenced this earlier, and you certainly have. You've described your entire career as being at its core about storytelling.
48:38I asked if you thought of yourself as a marketer. You said no, a storyteller. Yes. And figuring out what the story of each candidate campaign in the moment is and then telling it. I'm wondering what advice, as one of the great storytellers of the last decades, you have for the CEOs, CFOs, and CMOs in my audience on how to tell stories, whether you're selling toothpaste or presidential candidates, in today's world where attentions are shrinking. It's not that attentions are shrinking. The competition is ever-extended. Well, yes.
49:10David Axelrod:And the habits, consumer habits, in terms of information is so fractionalized now. But listen, and this may be sound like a cliche because it's used so often, but understand what your authentic comparative advantages are. Understand what your authentic brand is and try and develop all your messaging within that frame. Uh, don't, you know, try and tell a consistent story about why people are drawn, have been, would be drawn to you. Um, don't try and reinvent your message, uh, again and again and again, because you will not develop any kind of brand loyalty unless people really come to believe this is what it's about.
50:06David Axelrod:This is why I'm drawn to it. And then understand the people you're talking to and their lives and how the two things fit together. When I say I'm a storyteller, the story of your candidate offers validation to the messages that you're going to deliver. Tom Vilsack was an orphan who was adopted by a very troubled family, and his father ended up selling everything he owned. He found out after the fact to help him go to college, and education was a huge issue in Iowa. He told that story, but then he talked about Iowa and he said, I'm going to do for Iowa what my dad did for me. I'm going to put education first.
50:49David Axelrod:And that became a steady theme throughout our campaign. And people believed it because they heard his story. Because of where it was coming from. I do think one of the lessons for brands today is to be more humane. But I'll get interviewed about that. Last question for you, sir. It's the way we end every episode, which is if you had all the power in the world, what's one thing you'd create tomorrow, not next week, but tomorrow? And what's one thing you'd destroy? You can answer it through any lens, any aperture, anything that comes to mind. Just to follow through on what I said before, I'm kind of obsessed with this right now.
51:25David Axelrod:I would destroy the ability of algorithms to use data, big data, to try and inflame us against each other. I would try, you know, and I'm not a technologist. I don't know. And then conversely, I would try and create social media brands that appeal to the better angels of our nature and not the worse. And I would market them that way. Um, you know, and again, I have no idea if that could, you know, I mean, I'm now flying in the face of a lot of deep research that says that, you know, negativism and antagonism and hate and anger and conspiracy theories work. but you know I'm just I'd love to see us have a revolution of common humanity against all of that and I'd like to see vehicles to promote it that can prove the theory that I'm advancing here let those be the last words David Axelrod thank you Seth thank you so much thanks for inviting me I enjoyed it on Hacks on Tap thank you bye man thank you Before we go, consider this.
52:48A U.S. presidential campaign is trying to persuade a couple of hundred million people to choose one product over another in one moment on one day. A pretty large-scale marketing challenge. And most every campaign runs a national media-driven air war of messaging ads and posts while simultaneously conducting a ground war that has the candidates and surrogates knocking on doors, showing up on TV, showing up at diners and towns most people can't find on a map, shaking hands in living rooms in Des Moines, eating bratwurst to county fairs in Wisconsin, and kissing babies in church parking lots in South Carolina.
53:23Because somewhere in the long history of democratic politics and RIP American democracy, the people who do this for a living figured out that scale doesn't replace intimacy, it depends on it. The national campaign helps make your positions known. The handshake helps get you chosen. And you need both, because voters, the same people you might call consumers or customers, can feel the difference between a candidate who showed up and one who assumed showing up wasn't necessary. Political operatives call the show-up in person work the ground game. And the lesson from 250 years of American politics is that the ground game isn't a supplement to the air war.
53:59It's a thing that converts the air war into a result. So here's the question for every CEO and CFO listening. When your company decides to cut marketing, close a store, replace a human with a chatbot, or automate a process that used to involve a human, there may be very good reasons for doing so. But do you understand you're also making decisions about the ground game's role in value creation or destruction? Because right call or not, every one of these changes what the customer experiences, feels, and remembers, which means every one of them is either creating or destroying value. Business is just like politics, except you have to get people to vote with their dollars all day, every day, not just during an electoral cycle.
54:40So the question worth asking is whether anyone in the company is accounting for what the relationship between the air war and the ground game creates before they decide to change it. Today's episode was produced by Art Chung, Julian Villar, Jim Mackle, Manolo Moreno, Brandon McFarlane, and Ashley Futterman. The Fox Media Podcast Network and The Wisdomist Company. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver.
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From the publisher
Fundamentally, a political campaign isn’t all that different from a business – it’s an enterprise where every decision either builds value with voters or destroys it, and the voters are customers who only get to buy what you're selling, on just one day.
This week’s guest is legendary political strategist David Axelrod, who was President Obama’s chief strategist and senior advisor. Currently he’s a senior political commentator for CNN, and the co-host of the Hacks on Tap podcast. In over 140 elections, Axelrod has shaped the story of a candidate and the choice voters face in the polling booth. As a self-proclaimed idealist, he sees the American brand as having been devalued, but not beyond repair.
Produced by Wisdomous and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Follow the podcast on Instagram / TikTok: @createordestroypod
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