JPMorganChase CMO Carla Hassan on What Happens When the Product Doesn't Speak for Itself

29:35How do you ensure that the organization finds is never complacent? Doesn't just rest on laurels, especially when there's so much to risk when you take risk. Yeah. So, you know, one could argue we are in the risk business, right? Risk mitigation. Well, yes, we make decisions, you know, on big, big, big things. And sometimes we, you know, say yes, sometimes we say no. But I will tell you again, from the very top of the organization, we are, we have a healthy dose of paranoia that we never, ever. And I think that's the key. That's the differentiator is that we are always, and where do you go when you're number one in so many things?

30:25There's only one place to go. You either stay or you go down. Yes. Right? And so we think about that a lot. And I will tell you, I've never been at an organization like this one before where we are really hard on ourselves. And we spend more time talking about the things that we don't do well. And it's not a negative. And it took me a little bit, by the way, to actually readjust how I think because my entire career in meetings where you're presenting all the things that you're doing, you're wanting to show the great stuff that you're doing. We are the opposite, actually. In business reviews, particularly with Jamie, he'll say, that's great.

31:15Tell me what we're not doing well. Tell me where we actually need to do better. Tell me where somebody else is winning on this tiny little thing. And so the culture of the organization is a culture that values courage. It's a culture that values excellence and service and curiosity. Literally, I am telling you, those are our values and service. We have five values in this firm. And so those are lived every day because we have a healthy dose of paranoia that like at any given moment, the privilege that we have could get taken away. And so it's culturally ingrained in the organization to think through the lens of watch outs, to think through the lens of what we're not doing well, as opposed to like pounding our chests about the things that we're doing well.

32:04Is there a balance that you all find as an organization, not just within marketing, as business people, between within that culture of paranoia, not culture of paranoia, within that healthy paranoia. Culture of paranoia is something else entirely. Yes, it is. Much less beneficial. Let's not go there. between offense and defense between like you can see a lot of people we're number one protect and defend yeah we're number one yeah we got to do some protecting and defending we're not going to stay number one unless we go on the offense and i'm actually also thinking you spent years at pepsico yeah um and just to talk about brand pepsi for a second right which was for generations, the quintessential number two to Coke, which was there was somewhere to go, which was become number one.

32:58That's right. And I'm wondering, so I guess two questions, which is offense, defense with him being number one, but also is one easier or harder than the other, which is protecting, staying number one or becoming number one from number two? I think in this day and age, um it's i don't think you can stay number one without going on offense i i agree yeah at all like i think maybe 15 years ago you could you could play it safe you could like play the same playbook um one or two competitors right like i think now you you you can't there's no way what's changed then in the 15 years a lot of things one is the number of technology which has allowed like, you know, different kinds of competitors to emerge.

33:47The consumer themselves, you know, I tell my team all the time, we think, you know, we can't just think about the experiences that we build for our consumers as like looking at what our direct competitors are doing. Because at the end of the day, your, as a consumer, your expectation of any brand you interact with right now is based on the last most amazing experience you had with a totally different brand outside of that. Like, so for example, right, you, this experience you just had with, with Kohler, right? If it was a great experience, you're going to be like, well, if Kohler could do that on toilets, like why can't a bank treat me that way with my money?

34:43Yes, yes. You're not like, it's not, you know, if I had this seamless experience with this store, why is this other brand not able to do that when I call, you know, about my airplane ticket? I'm making these up. But it's really interesting. First, I should give credit to Home Depot, who really had the experience with. But I've been buying so much stuff for the house, right? Because it's an older house and we didn't move from L.A. with a lot of our things. Right. And what I've realized is I bought those toilets at 9 this morning. They will be delivered to my house by 2 this afternoon. The next thing you buy.

35:25It's exactly my point, which is I'm a big Amazon Prime user, right? Could have bought toilets from them but went to Home Depot. I now have an expectation that all shipping is free and all shipping comes the next day. That's right. And that is not the case. Correct. And to your point, expectations are set here and here and not so much in the middle. Correct. And that's what's changed. Yeah. Right? And so as a brand, you are no longer dictating the experience of the consumer and the customer. they are actually telling you what their expectation is. And it has nothing to do with, in financial services, for example, what the other banks are doing.

36:12It actually has to do with an experience you had at the Home Depot. That's right. And so that has changed in the last 10, 15 years. So all of these things have changed. The technology has changed, the way that we can deliver things. The consumer expectation has changed. Everything has changed. The types of competitors have changed, right? So it used to be that, you know, we would compete with two or three others. Now, the world of financial services is so fragmented, and every one of our lines of businesses is competing with multiple competitors. So much has changed. And I think as marketers, because we understand all of that, how fast technology is moving, how fast media channels are moving, how fast people are consuming things, how consumers are experiencing, all of that, I think it then becomes sort of incumbent on us.

37:05And it's why, to go back to answer your question, I don't think that you can only play it safe or say, this is the playbook that got us to number one. You've got to be able to play on the offense to stay at number one. You know, I'm struck by the operating reality that despite being in businesses that are generations old, you have categories of many new competitors. I'm sorry, quantities of many new competitors. As obvious as that is, I'm thinking about it. And I'm wondering, I'm thinking when a new player comes into a category that you're in, they are obviously seeing an opening, right? An opportunity to do something, to provide something that isn't being done.

37:58Having just mentioned Amazon, you know, Bezos is always, has long ago talked about, you know, I don't focus on the competition. I focus on the user. Do you guys consider, do you look at like, okay, what is our friend Vineet at Chime? What did Chime see that made them say, okay, there's an opportunity that we can exploit that's not being exploited. And then how do you adapt to that? Yeah. It's a great question. First of all, I think, you know, Vineet, the world of Vineet, and he's doing just incredible work. So hats off. I don't like him at all. Hats off. You don't? No, I don't. Oh, man. Okay, maybe then I don't like him.

38:36Vineet, I don't like you at all. Maybe I don't like him either. No, I'm just kidding. He's a good friend. And I actually love when friends in the industry are doing really great work. One of the hallmarks of the marketing community at the CMO level is the generosity within categories. I agree. And I also think that it's great when somebody that you respect is doing things that you're like, you know what? That's good for competition. And so let's go. But look, I think that, you know, go back to answer your question. I think that, you know, there is a generation of consumers that is coming up that is like starting their journey with money, with financial services.

39:24They have hopes. They have dreams. They have fears as well. And I think - Probably more fears than dreams. Yeah, probably. Relative to previous generations. Probably. not just even relative to previous generations, even relative to like what they understand about money, right? And you think about money is not easy. It's very emotional, but it's not easy. And so they are also on their own journeys. And so if any brand sees opportunity in the market where people are not necessarily speaking to a certain group a certain way or marketing to them a certain way or has products for them that are relevant to them, then you know what?

40:03That is an opportunity. And so, you know, we're all focused on that segment. It's how we talk to them and how we go about, you know, like marketing to them. And so I think that, you know, every new player or every sort of disruptor in any, back to your point about Pepsi, right? Pepsi versus Coke. I mean, it's the quintessential challenger brand and where Coke was super comfortable, you know and and safe and had their playbook a great playbook again respect to them um you know pepsi could take a few more risks you know and do some some interesting and fun things had to you're right had to actually um and you know and it and it worked and so i think that for big you know number one incumbent brands like like ourselves um we do a lot of introspection and a lot of like, wait, hold on, where did we miss?

41:00And what can we do better? And we do watch what other folks do, not so that we can emulate it, but so that we can understand, did we miss something? Yeah. Right? Did we miss something? And then jump on it pretty quickly if we did. Because missing is inevitable in a world of the complexities that we all compete in. Yeah.

41:49So that takes - me, when I've actually seen, you know, others that, that I'm like, wow, that was really, that was really great. It's that they've done that. They've like stopped and said, hold on, maybe we, maybe it's okay to pivot a little bit here, not lose who we are, but you know, are we missing something? And nine times out of 10, you're probably not, but the one time you are like, you know, I think the courage it takes to say, you know what, we missed that. We got to let's, you know, but it's not over, but we got to go get a piece of that. And I think there are no doubt moments where you're like, yeah, we missed that.

42:25And that's okay. Yeah. Many more moments than not actually, where we'll say, you know what, that was, that's not relevant to us. It's not authentic to us. We wouldn't do that. And that's okay from a business standpoint. And that's okay. But there are, I mean, so many, you know, like throughout my career where it's like, oh man, miss that. You know?

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44:13I want to, we are not getting to any questions I wanted to ask you, but there's something you just said that makes me want to ask you a question I hadn't been thinking about. And it brings me back four and a half, almost five years now to my very first Forbes CMO Summit. And you were on the very first panel there and you said something that I will quote in just a second. Um, and the audience, I remember you looking at the audience saying, you have to know how your company makes money. And I remember the audience like going, Oh, and no shade to all my friends in the audience. I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you?

44:56How were you not thinking that before? And so it's a similar question with a different lens that I asked you earlier about customer centricity, right? Which is, why do you think, and this will be about marketing rather than the organization, so many, why do you think that landed so hard? Because it did, in a good way, in the audience of marketers who should all be thinking about how their company makes money because their job is to fucking make their company money. Yeah. I think somewhere along the way, five years ago, I think we as a function, a marketing industry, forgot that that is why we exist.

45:41It was about who can make the prettiest thing or make the coolest, most interesting thing. And I actually think some marketers liked the role that they were, you know, the different one, interesting, cool one that understood culture. That's not enough. It doesn't drive commerce. Like, you know, we exist to drive growth of a business. We do that by building brands. We do that by building products, by building services. experiences, but like all of the above, right? By telling stories that resonate with consumers, with our end user, whether it's a client or a consumer, we can't do that if we don't actually understand.

46:38If you spend money on this, it's doing that. If this is a good dollar to spend, This is not a good dollar to spend. This dollar is a dollar that you spend that pays out in five years and that's okay. This dollar is a dollar that you spend and it pays out tomorrow and that's good, right? Are those dollars binary? I've been thinking a lot about this, which is the conversation about the short versus long, short versus mid versus long is more important than ever in a world where I refer to it as the tyranny of the capital markets influencing decisions for today that sacrifice tomorrow. And I've come to wonder if it's a false binary, just like brand versus performance, which is say what works today should work for the long term.

47:26It certainly shouldn't be deleterious to the long term. What works for the long term should certainly work for today. Or am I wrong, do you think? No, I don't think you're wrong. I think it's an and, it's not an or. I definitely think it's an and, not an or. But again, I go back to unless you understand how your company actually makes money, right? So like in our world, you know, NII versus NIR, like understanding like how is it? Yeah, so does the company make money off of interest? Does it make money off of like, you know, like, and so how are we actually making money? And like, what are the mechanics?

48:10We have a session that anytime there are new joiners, we have these new joiner sessions where one of the most critical part of the new joiner session is actually listening to the CFOs tell you, this is how this company makes money. This is how we evaluate our marketing spend. This is how we, because it's really important. And by the way, everybody has to go through that. Not just someone who is, to your point, like working in acquisitions marketing. The creatives have to go through it. They may not understand it, but we say it in language that actually everyone can understand because it's important.

48:47It's important that you understand the role that you play. It's important to understand that some businesses make money off of fees. Some businesses make money from... That's right. You have to understand it. And I do think that, to me, that's why it becomes an and or an or. I heard that the CEO of Levi's yesterday, she was in an interview. you, she said something so interesting. She said she looks at the business from a microscope and a telescope lens, which I thought was so interesting. And she was talking about the fact that like she gave a couple years ago all of her, I have to ask Kenny about this, all of her leadership team, this like microscope telescope thing that they could put on their desk.

49:30And the notion is that the telescope, you've got to look to the future. And you know, you think about that in our world and the journey of a customer that starts off at like 18 years old and that ends up like talking about wealth creation by the time they're in their 50s, 60s, right? That whole entire journey, that's the telescope and you've got to think through that. And then the microscope, what's today? So who are they today? What do they think about today? And I thought that was really interesting, which is why I think it's an and. It can't be an either or it has to be an end. You've got to think about how to market today, but then also at the end of the day, you're building the value of the brand longer term so that it goes with them through every part of their journey, every part of their life, right?

50:17That they don't kind of say, Chase is for me today, but it's not for me tomorrow, right? Like it's for me today because there's a no-fee credit card and I'm 18 years old, that's awesome. There's a no-fee, you know, checking account, yay. but then it's not for me when I'm going to buy a home. Why? So building the brand and the trust of the brand longer term allows us to stay with them in the continuum of the journey. That's why I think it's an and. I brought up Jamie a couple of times and arguably in 2026, if not the, certainly amongst the three or four or five most influential chief executives, business leaders in the global landscape.

51:03He's also amongst, certainly outside of tech, one of the most identifiable, right? And he is widely recognized and compared to many chief executives, more opinionated, more candid with his opinions, even if occasionally couched than some others. I'm wondering, as the CMO, when the CEO, when your CEO is that, and you've worked for other very visible CEOs, is that visible? Is that identified with the institution? Everything they say, and we've seen this happen usually for the worse, right? Like, I'm thinking of Bob Japik at Disney, and I'm thinking, you know, with Missteps and even Iger when he came back at Disney and a million examples of where it goes awry.

51:54Every decision they make, every public statement, right? Every position Jamie takes, even when it's couch, is ultimately a, in quotes, marketing decision, right? Which is say it has the potential to influence whether someone buys or does not, whether someone trusts more or less or I suppose the same. I'm wondering from your perspective how the chief executive, we don't have to make it about Jamie, influences how value gets created and destroyed in your world. and if that's something that you collectively talk about or that you as the CMO are sometimes like you're just forced to respond to for better or worse.

52:39You know, it's so interesting because I would tell you that I know it sounds really strange to answer it this way, but I would tell you that it actually doesn't necessarily impact the marketing that we do. I'll tell you why. Because, of course, when any executive says anything, by the way, myself included, right? And it shows up somewhere, it has the potential of like - Doing damage. Certainly doing damage and possibly actually doing great, right? And so for sure, for sure. But what I would tell you is that what we focus on, going back to the genesis of this conversation, is how do we build trust?

53:29How do we build trust? And to me, that's why we focus only on, like, who are the people we're talking to? What do they need to hear from us, right? And so I'll give you the example of like the corporate brand, JPMorgan Chase. We are talking to, you can imagine, governors like other CEOs, very, very different than Chase, right? So the message is really different. That's probably the place where Jamie's voice does get amplified the most, right? Or at least get incorporated the most. He's, yeah, macroeconomic geopolitical policy. Yeah, that's right. But look, there's no doubt about it from the very top of the organization, right?

54:11Like he sets the tone for the culture of the organization and everything flows from that. But from a marketing perspective, we tend to separate church and state. I know it's really weird to – it's hard to imagine that because he is so vocal and he does have a point of view and he is really synonymous with the company brand. But I will tell you that like we spend our time on like what are the key messages that we want to drive in the communities. Now, where some of them are similar is you'll hear him say, we actually go the opposite way. So we will say in the communities that we serve, we want them to know X, Y, Z, A, B, C.

54:53And so we actually say to him, we'd really like you to talk about X, Y, Z, A, B, C. Right, right. Right, because it's important. It's important that people see how we're uplifting the communities. It's important to see how we're, you know, funding these kinds of organizations in the communities that we serve. He is the chief brand officer. And so he does. He take, you know, we sit with him and we say, this is what's important to us. So can you please make sure that you're, you know, that act. So we flip it. That's almost a political construct, which is to say, as politics is marketing and marketing is politics, that that's kind of the message of the day that is is kind of nomenclature from the political sphere that i think has great relevance to the well everything is politics these days i mean look he he is incredible he's an incredible leader he more than an incredible leader he's an incredible human but i do think that we're pretty good about saying like it's not about a person it's about like you know how the messages and the marketing that we want to put out with the communities that we serve.

55:57And, you know, for the most part, it works that way. You've had the benefit of working for a few brilliant leaders. I have. If you were to go to Acme Widget Company tomorrow, are there one or two things, lessons learned from an Indra, from a Jamie, from a, I don't even know who else? Those are probably the two biggest, most prolific. You're like, okay. Carlos Gutierrez at Kellogg's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, another legend. That you're like, okay, as I'm establishing what we're going to do here, I've learned from these folks. This is what creates value. This is what destroys value. Yeah, I'll tell you what.

56:44So many, so many. And someday, like, I want to, like, put them down on paper. But I would say that there are a few. The first is discipline. And like the, it's incredible and it seems really small, but this idea that like their inbox is at zero and it's at zero not because I'm sure they can delegate to people, of course, but they've been like that their entire life, right? Like, you know, it's that, you know, something hits their, like, to-do list, they get it done. Whether it's them themselves or whether they get somebody else to do it, it's unbelievable. The pace at which emails are answered, the pace at which, you know, deliverables are done.

57:31Every one of them, every single one of them, that's number one. Number two, I would say this, like, incredible balance of vision and execution. like here's where we want to go but i am going to like execute the hell out of it i'm going to put the right people in place i'm going to and like you know empower them to do it and i'm going to get the hell out of their way but i'm going to hold them accountable yeah but i'm going to get the hell out of their way but i want them to come back and tell me here's what we're doing well here's what we're not doing well like i'm going to hold them accountable it unbelievable this this notion By the way, I'm sorry to interrupt, but implicit in that is the permission to not do things well as long as you recognize them.

58:12That's right. That's right. Humanity. Yeah. Like, I can't say enough. You know, my mother passed away a little over three years ago. And I will never forget I was leaving our building to run to the airport to get to Lebanon in time before she passed. And Jamie was pulling up in a car. and he had known. And in the middle of Midtown, New York City, gave me this huge hug and just said, like, you know, go see your mom, right? Indra Nui, when Noor, our daughter, had cancer. Like, to this day, when I talk to her, the first thing she says to me is, how is my Noor, right? Like, wow, mind blown, right?

58:56Like, they are humans first and foremost. So they run the tightest ships. They are super disciplined. They work smarter, not, they work harder than everybody, but they work smart, right? All of those things. But at the core of it all, they are humans and they're decent humans. They treat like everybody in the company, no matter what level they are, the same way. I'll tell you what, like that is so special. And I think it's something as a leader that I think about all the time. Like how can I emulate that? And by the way, I'm not as good as any of them are at the like respond right away. And like people will tell you in my personal life, like I have two.

59:40Oh, I have noticed. I have two modes, right? I either respond to you right away or I think I've responded to you. And like a month later, you're like, hello. I'm like, no, I responded to you. But like, I know that's what I'm bad at. Right. And so I know that about myself. And I, you know, what do they say? Like acceptance or like acknowledgement is the beginning of like, you know, starting. to like get better. But yeah, I would say probably those, there's so many others, but I would say like the discipline of it all, the sort of balancing of like vision with execution and then the humanity of these people, it just, it's incredible.

1:00:21And to have a front row seat to watching that just makes you a better human and a better leader, I think. You know, it feels like we've gone fairly full circle, which is to say we started with trust and we're ending with humanity and there's actually no difference between them because trust is fundamentally a human emotion. That's right. That's right. And it feels like a great place, leaving so many questions unasked, to ask you the question we ask all our guests at the end of every episode, which is, with all the power in the world, if you could create something today, anything, doesn't have to be in a business context, anything, and destroy something today, what would they be?

1:01:07I would probably create more understanding. I think in the world that we live in right now, both by the way personally and professionally, I think that we're moving so fast. People don't take the time to understand. People don't take the time to listen to the other point of view. I just think we'd be in such a better place. Like when I think about how that translates, like from a personal perspective, certainly, right? That's easy to see. But from a business perspective, like the more that we can understand where each other come from, you know, we live in matrixed organizations and it's so hard to like not think about what other people do because you're so focused on what you want to do and how you are being compensated and your objectives.

1:02:02I think understanding, like really having, I mean, empathy at the end of the day, right? Like put yourself in somebody else's shoes, understand where they're coming from. Like that will help us drive better results. Which is consistent with humanity, right? Your point about humanity of a moment ago. But, you know, it's funny when you were talking about that, in particular about Jamie and intro i was like yeah but there are moments when they're human their individual humanity they're having a really bad fucking day for reason x y or zed i don't know why i say zed i'm not british i like it though i kind of i like it too i like it it's a decent i grew up saying zed and then i moved to the u.s and it became z but i like zed zed is good yeah that is good as long as i I don't say it in an accent.

1:02:50But I hope they're given the grace to have bad days as humans exercising humanity. What would you destroy? I'd destroy fear. I'd destroy fear. I think fear is one of the, like, it's a killer of innovation. It's a killer of progress. It's a killer of dreams. By the way, I experience it every day. Sure. Even as the chief marketing officer of this firm and you'd be like, oh, you know, she's the CMO. I'm in constant fear of like, I'm the only one here that doesn't have a lot of experience in financial services and I don't understand what's going on. If I say something, are people going to think I'm stupid, right?

1:03:34So many times. I gave up that fear a long time ago because I say shit stupid all the time. I haven't yet. Yeah. I have to work at it every single day. You know, fear of like being the, you know, the person that has an idea that like nobody else in the room would have. And maybe it's stupid because it's different. And so you don't ask, you don't talk about it. You don't ask the questions. Like, I just think fear stifles innovation. It stifles progress, you know. I get rid of it. What would be your advice to the younger, the people earlier in their career in the audience about how to overcome that fear that you, one of the most accomplished executives in the world, hasn't yet overcome?

1:04:18You have got to like find a place internally where you are literally yelling at that voice in real time. In real time, as uncomfortable as it is. I have felt sometimes like my skin get hot. Like, you know, my body heat like rise when I'm sitting in a meeting and I'm like, I want to say this, I want to say this, but like they're going to think it's stupid. And I'm like, and I'm literally, there's another voice going like, just say it. Like, just say it. And when you do, like, it's done. Like, it's done. It's out there. And a couple of times, yes, you're going to feel stupid. Someone's going to make you feel stupid.

1:05:01Yeah, that's a difference, right? Someone is going to make you feel stupid. You should just know that. But as long as you know that, there's power in that. And so for me, I'm like, in real time, I will say to myself, okay, so such and such might think that's stupid. This person might think that's an irrelevant question. Someone might roll their eyes at you and you might get dismissed. So what? So what? So what? Like, so what? And so I think that would be my biggest advice is like, don't let that voice keep you quiet. Don't. Like, don't. And when you do it once, twice, three times, four times, it starts to become a little easier.

1:05:45So I still have not overcome it completely, but it is much easier for me. It's a practice. It's 100 % a practice. It's 100 % a learned skill. And my biggest piece of advice would be in real time, talk to yourself, tell yourself to shut the F up and like grow the courage to like overcome that fear. Because chances are somebody else is either thinking the same thing or there's one person in a room of 20 that'll be like, oh, that was a good idea. and or that was a bad idea but it made me think of something that's a good idea that's right which is that feedback and yeah i'm actually thinking yeah i think it's so important what you've just said and and you know i qualified it as the people earlier in their career that's that was a bad qualifications for anybody anywhere at any time um and i'm reminded of what we were talking about before we started recording, which is arguably one of the greatest moments in the history of history, which is Nixon 5.

1:06:46That's right, Nixon 5. And the language that was, what if it all works out? What if it all works out? What if it all works out? If we all just thought that way, right? Like, what if it all works out? What if that idea you have for doing something differently works out? What if the product that you want to create that people have, by the way, poo-pooed like four times before you, what if now is the right time for it? What if it was before its time back then and now it's the right time for it? What if it works out? And I just think that we're in a world where we constantly are thinking about the downside of things.

1:07:30And I think we have to. Like we have to think about like what could go wrong. I think it would be irresponsible for us to not think about it. But that's where we live for the most part. Like that is where most people, most marketers, most business leaders sit. But what if at the same time that we asked that question and we did all the research to say why we shouldn't do something, we actually said, what if it worked out? And that tension, I think, is where the magic happens. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me. Before we go, consider this. It's January 1991. America was focused on the start of the Gulf War and the economy was sliding into recession.

1:08:14What's old is new again. When Regis McKenna, a high-tech marketing consultant, published an article in Harvard Business Review titled, Marketing is Everything. In it, in McKenna's book of the same name, He laid out six principles for what he called a new paradigm, and the first and most important was this. Marketing is everything and everything is marketing. It's not a function, McKenna wrote, but an all-pervasive way of doing business. 35 years ago, McKenna argued that marketing had to evolve from monologue to dialogue, that the goal wasn't to sell a product but to own a market as a way of selling a product, and that any company still treating marketing as a department rather than as the organizing principle for the entire enterprise was going to be outperformed by companies that understood what he was saying.

1:09:0135 years later, it turns out he was pretty effing prescient. Over 90 % of Fortune 500 CEOs still have neither meaningful marketing experience nor understanding. And in most enterprises, marketing is still too often siloed from product and operations and finance. And the article that should have been the starting gun for reimagining how enterprises organize around growth, was instead assigned in business schools, nodded at in conference keynotes, and as it turns out, 35 years later, largely ignored in practice. Of course, this is why I have a show. And here's why this is worth considering now and again.

1:09:38McKenna wasn't making a marketing argument. He was making a business argument, which is that when every function in the enterprise touches the customer and every decision shapes whether that customer comes, stays, or goes, then treating marketing as one department job is a structural decision that limits how much value the enterprise can create. That structural decision has been compounding for 35 years, which means every company that read McKenna and filed him away, every individual that did the same has been making a choice to leave value on the table or worse, to quietly destroy it through organizational design that separates the people who understand the customer from the people who make the decisions that affect them.

1:10:21The question isn't whether McKenna was right. He was. It's how much the decisions not to listen have cost. That's something to consider. Today's episode was produced by Art Chung, Jim Mackle, Manolo Moreno, Brandon McFarlane, and Ashley Futterman from the Fox Media Podcast Network and the Wisdomist Company. Experience a membership that backs your business journey with American Express Business Platinum. Earn five times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com. Plus, apply to find out your welcome offer, which could be as high as 300 ,000 membership rewards points.

1:11:00American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Welcome offers vary, and you may not be eligible for an offer. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business dash platinum. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

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