3 Steps to Handle Any Difficult Conversation & Negotiate With Confidence with Kwame Christian

23:40Oh my gosh, you just triggered this memory for me that is so crazy. So when you talk about the difference between power versus leverage. And oftentimes the person that has the leverage doesn't know they have it because that power is so right that everyone focuses on that, which has been my experience in corporate America. You are so right though, my friend. I I'll never forget. I was pitching myself for a job that didn't exist back when I was in corporate and I was sitting with the president of the company and he said, you know what, Heather, not interested, get back and keep doing your job. You're doing a great job.

24:10Like hit me with the power card, like real fast, right? Like you're good kids. Stay where you are doing a great job on your way. We're busy. And I remember thinking I was frustrated. I was like, I don't like that. He has all the power. I know I'm right. Right. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to dial up for dollars. I'm going to, I'm going to, if this guy doesn't value me, I'm going to value me and I'm going to start seeing somebody else does. So I start calling other companies. I land verbally a huge job, much bigger than the job that I'm in bigger than the job I'm pitching. But out of Grace, I called him back and I said, I have a very important decision to make today.

24:43I'd like to meet with you face-to-face because I believe it's so important to go face-to-face when you really want something done, a deal done. So I go and sit with him face-to-face and I said, listen, have you thought any more about the opportunity I ran by you the last time we were together? He said, no, not at all. I said, great, then I'm here to resign today. And he said, what? And I said, yes, I'm giving you my resignation. I'm going to go, I landed a much bigger job somewhere where people are valuing, you know, my talents and skillset that I'm bringing forward. And he said, can you give me two minutes?

25:11And I said, sure. And he left and he came back in and I said, where did you just go? And he said, well, I went to call my father, the CEO, because I couldn't make this decision on my own, which by the way, never take a no from someone who can't give you a yes, people. That was a big mistake I made. Anyhow, he said, Heather, I'd like to offer you the newly created position a VP of sales and blah, blah, blah. And the point being is I was so taken aback by the power move at first that I got frustrated instead of thinking like what you're saying, where was that leverage within me? Because nobody was doing that job that I was able to do so successfully within the company.

25:48There was no chance they were going to want to lose me. And I probably didn't even need to go through all of, you know, the making the phone calls and disrupting other businesses. I could have just had that conversation from a standpoint of, gosh, I really like working here. I don't want to have to leave. However, if you guys don't see my value, I'll need to start making those calls or whatever it may be. Too often, Kwame, people don't see the leverage that they have because they are so taken by the power, right? Absolutely. I mean, when you think about the psychological studies, it makes a bit more sense, too.

26:18Because when you look at people who are asked to talk to sketch artists about their experience being robbed at gunpoint, what's interesting is that they can identify the gun with great detail, but they don't identify the face. Why? Because the face can't hurt them. The power is in the gun. That is the threat. And so when we are in these tough conversations, especially if we're struggling with confidence, our minds are focused on the threat, not the opportunities. So we literally can't see it. So we need to train ourselves to learn how to see it. And this is a really big part, you know? So that's, once we can start to identify that challenge within ourselves, give ourselves more confidence and teach ourselves to see more opportunities, now we can navigate this conversation a lot more fluidly with that power and leverage, but the confidence to actually utilize it.

27:11And going back to your story too, this shows a classic negotiation strategy of making sure that you have a strong BATNA, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And so just you think about, let's use really simple numbers out of 10. Let's say you have an offer from this company that is an eight out of 10, but you want to do better. And so you go to this other company and you're trying to get a nine out of 10 in this offer. And they say, no, sorry, we can only give you seven out of 10. Then that gives you the confidence to walk away because you know you already have an eight out of 10.

27:45And so sometimes the best thing you can do in order to increase your amount of leverage at the negotiation table is not negotiate with the person that you want the deal from, but actually negotiate with the people that you don't, that might be your plan B or plan C. Because if you can make that option stronger, it gives you more power and leverage in the negotiation that you're really focused on. I love that. How do you train people to see the opportunity when, like me, they're overshadowed by the power element? One of the things that's helpful is to take themselves out of the position. So it's, you know, just in life in general, it's far easier for people to give advice to other people than do the thing that they know that they should do.

28:26And sometimes you need to take yourself out and position yourself differently. But positioning, which is something that you talked about in our previous episode, right? It's so important to position yourself well. And so if you can start to step outside and see this a bit more objectively, then you could see some of the alternatives. And so you have to kind of force yourself to be more creative. But here's something about the psychology of creativity that people often overlook. In order to be creative, you're going to be more creative when you are at peace emotionally. If you're constantly triggered, if you're afraid, if you're stressed or you're anxious, again, you're going to start focusing on the threats and not the opportunities.

29:03So a big part of being more creative and seeing those opportunities is the emotional side. It's often first an emotional challenge, then a cognitive challenge. But you can't get to the point of effective cognition and exploring those opportunities until you can first learn how to calm down and see yourself and just be at more peace emotionally. So I think it has to be both. It's that emotional element and the cognitive element. But I just say, hey, let's let's have a bad idea race. I love thinking about it as a bad idea race, because if I say come up with good ideas, now I feel stress and pressure.

29:36But if I just say come up with as many bad ideas as possible, now people can be a lot more creative. Because a lot of times, again, cognitively, the ability to be creative and edit, those are antithetical to each other because you're thinking critically while trying to think creatively. So I just say unconstrained from reality, best case scenario, what are some alternatives? And a lot of times what you'll find is that the opportunities outside of the one that's right in front of you are often far better. You just need to take the time to look for them. Wow. Again, you just triggered another memory for me.

30:09So I was in a very toxic work environment in corporate America, like so many people listening right to the show right now. So so many people are going to this is going to resonate with you peeps. So I was not sleeping well. I was traveling a ton. I was gone every week for work. I was super high stress. I wasn't taking a shower and getting all these solutions in my mind or going for a run and like, oh, my gosh, now I know what I'm going to do. And that's what happens to me now. But back then I was I was like on the rat like I'm on the rat race. like I'm running so hard and I'm constantly stressed out.

30:43Everything became hard. It was interesting because I just was coaching somebody about this the other day. She couldn't see that she was on that loop and that every time I would say, you need to figure out a way to meditate or to do yoga or go for a run or sleep or go to bed by 10 o 'clock at night. Like we've got to start somewhere or cut back on the caffeine, something. You don't understand, I can't. You don't understand, I can't. It's not gonna work. She was so locked into convincing herself that it wasn't possible. And I empathize with that because I was the exact same way. How can you get someone to pump the brakes and actually take a step towards doing something positive so they can start thinking in a more clear fashion?

31:22I think that's a bit of a negotiation too. One of the things that we can do is start with the minimum effective dose. What is the smallest step that a person can take in order to see that this is okay? And you might need to negotiate that with them because you might ask for something big. Like, oh, I want you to take a day off, take a vacation day, or I want you to meditate for 15 minutes. No, no, I cannot. Right. This will happen. This will happen. It's the chicken little syndrome. The sky is falling. And so sometimes you have to show them this. Nothing will happen. And I remember one time with one of the one of the teammates that I had and I said and she was very stressed out about performance.

32:01She had very, very high standards. And I said, you are performing at a level that is unnecessarily high and is taking a psychological toll. on you, I would be better. It would be better for the team to have you performing while being well than performing at an unnecessarily high level and not being well, because then you get stressed out and then you're going to have to take a mental health day at a time when neither of us are prepared for that. So we have to slow it down. And so I remember one time a client asked for something very late on a, on a Friday at like four 30. And she said, Kwame, Kwame, the client says they need this and they need it urgently.

32:39And I said, here's what's going to happen. I know that you cannot give them what they're asking for without me giving you what you need. So I want to be very clear. I am not going to give you what you need. And you're going to tell them that you cannot reach me and therefore they can't get what they need. And you're just going to be very nice and polite and then just say, I'll get it to you as quickly as possible on Monday. And she said, this is giving me so much anxiety. I said, good. I don't want you to feel that. And I want you to recognize that everything will be okay. They created an arbitrary deadline that they didn't communicate before.

33:13That's not our problem. We will be fine. And then she delivered it on Monday. The client was ecstatic and everything was fine. And that's when she realized, oh, wait a second. The things that I was afraid of, they didn't manifest. And so if you can find just that small step, just a little test, you're afraid everything's going to fall apart. Let's do that test. And if it doesn't, then let's take another step, right? And I think sometimes just making it very, very small and being okay with being patient with the process and being incremental is what the person needs. Because a lot of times people will say no, because it seems too risky.

33:46So if you can de-risk the proposition by making it just a little bit smaller, I think that's the way to get them stepping in the right direction. Meet a different guest each week.

33:59Starting the year with a wardrobe refresh, Quince has you covered with lux essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing, and building a wardrobe that lasts. Their versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day. Quince has all the staples covered, from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup, to 100 % silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up, to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season. Their Italian wool coats are real standouts. They're beautifully tailored, soft to the touch, and built to carry you through years of wear, not just one season.

34:40The quality shows in every detail, the stitching, the fit, the fabrics. Every piece is thoughtfully designed to be your new wardrobe essential. And like everything from Quince, each piece is made from premium materials and ethical, trusted factories that are priced far below what other luxury brands charge. I can't tell you how much I am loving my new cashmere sweater. It's a staple for sure, and I can't wait to give one to my best friend for her birthday this year. It is timeless, gorgeous, and the softest thing I've ever touched. Which quince pieces are you interested in? I mean, from the bags, to the denim, to the sweaters, to the jackets, they're all incredible luxury high-end products without the high-end price.

35:23Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to Quince.com slash confidence for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash confidence to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash confidence. I ask you to try to find your passion. Okay, so you talk a lot about difficult conversations, which everybody either is avoiding all the time or some people are leaning into overly aggressively. What are some of the frameworks or direction that you give people to how to address and have difficult conversations in a successful manner?

36:08Yeah, well, besides the compassionate curiosity framework, there are some things, some frameworks that go along with it that help people to understand the power of it. because the reality is there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. And this is something that a lot of people miss because they'll say, I am, I'm right. I know I'm right. I've done the research and the person is just being unreasonable. They're being illogical. And I said, that sounds like you're complaining because they're being a human. Everything you talked about, it's a very natural human response. That's just how humans are.

36:39And the thing is, when there are going to be several times where you have all the facts, data, logic on your side, and they still won't agree, that's a persuasion. issue. And so one of the things that I want people to focus on is the difference between egocentric persuasion versus empathetic persuasion. So egocentric persuasion focuses on the things that you believe. Why do you believe what you believe? I'm going to regurgitate that to you because of course you think exactly like me. But empathetic persuasion takes the time to understand where the person comes from. It's how do they see the situation?

37:09How do they think about the situation? How do they feel about the situation? And when you can take the time to download that data and pay them the respect of listening and letting them tell you what matters to them, then what you do is you persuade them on their terms, not yours. So here's a very simple example. Let's say we're trying to sell a car and there might be one person who likes the car because it's cool and fast. Another person might like that exact same car because it's safe and reliable. And if you go up to the person who has a family of four and talk about how cool and fast the car is, you might lose a sale.

37:44And so we have to figure out what it is that people care about and why and persuade on their terms. And a lot of times the data and statistics and the reasons why we think they should change their behavior won't work with them. And the right answer might be to not even say any of those things because those are meant for you. Those are persuasive to you. The thing that might be persuasive to the other person might be something completely different and you have to be humble and flexible enough to adjust. Wow. Yeah, that is so, so good. And the funny thing is I keep being reminded by this by you that we've got to like take a step back.

38:19We have to get ourself calm and centered first so we can be strategic about it. Because when you think about it that way, and I'm replaying in my own mind, difficult conversations, I've been reacting. I've been emotional. I've been coming from my own triggers instead of being empathetic and some of these other strategies that you're giving us. So thank you. Yes, my pleasure. And I think one of the things that can help people just feel a little bit less pressure in these conversations is recognizing that you are going to be more persuasive based on the questions that you ask more so than the statements that you make.

38:50because the thing is people don't, when it comes to these conversations, you need to understand where they're coming from, but the other person needs to feel heard in the process. Sometimes the deficiency that the person has in the conversation, the thing that will hold them back from giving you what you want or adjusting is the fact that they simply don't feel heard. Think about how likely are you to trust somebody if you don't feel like they have heard you or understand you? How hard is it going to be for you to like somebody if you don't feel like they've heard you or understand you? I have been shocked, Heather, at how many of my conversations I came in, you know, with this lawyer mentality where I need to convince you of something.

39:33You don't get it. I'm right. You're wrong. All that stuff. And the only thing I needed to do in order for that conversation to get better and to be handled effectively and the relationship to get better is simply sit back and listen. And when the person feels heard, that thing that they were complaining about, that thing that they wanted you to do, or the thing that they were unwilling to do, that barrier just magically disappears. Because a lot of times people are resistant simply because they don't feel safe. And sometimes the reason they don't feel safe is because they don't believe that you understand.

40:06So what is the best way to do that other than to just listen? Is it to pare it back to them? This is what I heard you say. What's the right way to communicate we are hearing them? Great question. because a lot of times we can get criticized for not listening when we actually were listening. So it's not just about hearing the person, but making sure that they feel heard in the process. So I like to use the empathy loop. So it's a simple three-step process. What you do is, number one, listen. That's step one. And then number two, you summarize. But you're not going to regurgitate what they said verbatim because that's annoying.

40:39You need to contextualize it to show that you understand. So you just say, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, or tell me if I'm right on this or let me know what I'm missing. But it sounds like you're saying this, this and this, and you care about this for this reason. And it's having an impact on you because of this. And you feel this way and it's having this impact. Am I getting that right? And this is the last part. You check with them. Am I getting that right? What did I miss? Is that a fair synopsis? Use whatever words you want, but it's listen, summarize and double check. Because what happens is this serves as a crucial checkpoint in the conversation where you say, listen, this is an inflection point.

41:14I can recognize that this is a very important part of the conversation. So I'm going to make sure that I understand you. And at the same time, I'm going to make sure that you feel heard. And I will not advance in the conversation until both boxes are checked. I'm going to take some time to make sure I got it. And I'm going to make sure that you know that I got it. And so there are a couple of times when I realized that it's time to use the empathy loop. Number one, like I said, when it's an inflection point, where it's clearly an important point, I will also use this as a strategic timeout. If I don't know what to say next, I'm going to slow it down by using the empathy loop.

41:50And then there's a trigger, a signal. If the person's voice is getting louder, if their voice is elevating, then I often use that as a signal that they don't feel heard. So it's an interesting human trick, like weird human quirk. Think about when you're talking to somebody or people are speaking English to somebody who doesn't speak English as their first language. Oftentimes they speak louder. That doesn't help, but it's a weird psychological thing. Same thing in these tough conversations. If somebody's voice is elevating, it's usually because they don't feel heard. So I'm gonna use it at that point to make sure that they do.

42:26And so by managing emotions, using compassionate curiosity, recognizing when they're getting frustrated and not feeling heard and using the empathy loop, I'm really able to keep these conversations really respectful because I can identify problems before they become big problems. Once I recognize emotions are out of whack, I'm going to use compassionate curiosity. When volume goes up, I'm going to use the empathy loop. And that keeps the conversation moving in the right direction. I love that strategy, by the way. Thank you for sharing it. When do you say, you know what, this conversation is going nowhere.

42:55I'm just going to walk away from it. This is a toxic person, a toxic situation. What's the difference? Or is there a sign that you get that you know, wait a minute, this is not going to move forward? Yeah, this is an imprecise science. And let's separate the two because there's going to be a time where you say this, it's the conversation is unproductive. And then there are going to be times where you say this relationship, it needs to be, you know, completely removed, right? Because at the end of the day, conflict is an opportunity to improve and strengthen relationships, but also identify and remove malignant relationships with minimal damage.

43:28So let's talk about productivity first. So every conversation has some level of momentum. We can see things moving in a productive direction. And if I recognize that we are feeling kind of stuck. And I've tried different ways to get unstuck, right? How can I break through impasse? I might try this. I might try that. I might try this. We recognize the conversations have momentum. And if you try to keep on pushing through that impasse, when you realize it's been 5, 10, 15 minutes, and we haven't made any progress in the conversation, I fully understand you, you fully understand me, but we're just stuck.

44:02There's a danger of getting beyond that point of diminishing returns to the point where we just get frustrated and start hurting each other. And so what we need to do is we need to accept the progress that we've made, pack it up and move on to the next conversation. And here's, this is one of the things I discovered in mediation. When I was mediating, I was a facilitative mediator, which means I'm not driving toward a deal. I'm just trying to help the conversation happen. If you get a deal, that's fine. If you don't, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me. Right. So I wasn't, I wasn't told to drive toward a deal.

44:31But there was one thing that I did that increased my closing rate by 20%, even though that wasn't my intention. And that was just being willing to schedule second, third, and fourth sessions. So instead of saying, okay, I'm going to try to push through this mediation, I'm going to push to 90 minutes, two hours, two and a half hours, three hours, and try to get it done today. Oh, it failed. We're done. What I would do is I would push to about an hour, hour 15. and then I saw the studies, I recognized that people can only focus really intentionally and intensely for about 90 minutes before they start to fade.

45:04And so before we got to that fade point, I would say, hey, listen, we've made a lot of progress. We were here before and now we've gotten to this point. I don't want us to lose this progress. Let's just schedule a second session and then we'll finish it then. And then in the second and third sessions, that's when they're getting deals because people are cognitively tired. So accept your progress, note the progress to the other side, and then they're going to be more willing to come back. So being incremental is helpful. So it's not that you're necessarily giving up on the conversation, you're just extending it, right?

45:35And so you're focusing more on momentum. And then, you know, maybe after the second conversation, third conversation, you realize, oh, we fully understand each other. And we just simply disagree, agree to part ways, and then move on. Because at the end of the day, negotiation is a problem solving tool. I'm engaging in this conversation to solve my problem. But at the same time, I'm not making this the only way I can solve my problem. I'm having this conversation so you could have the opportunity to solve this problem with me. And if we can't reach an agreement here, then I will then solve this problem on my own.

46:05And that's the permission I give myself. Now, on the other side, what I would want to do is I would want to pay attention to the patterns within the relationship. So if the person is constantly draining you, causing problems, and this is something we talked about in our last episode, I'm going to recognize this pattern. And then I'm going to give them an opportunity to get back on track. And I'm going to say, this is the kind of life I want to have. This is the type of relationship I want to have. And if you can't get to that point, you can do what you want, but I want to make sure that I give myself permission to be well.

46:35And if they're not willing to do what it takes to adjust in order to help that situation, then you need to be willing to step away. So those are the two different ways that I would approach those situations. I love that. You are dropping pure gold, my friend. Kwame, Tell everybody about your podcast, about where they can find you and how they can work with you. Well, thank you very much. So Negotiate Anything. We've been doing this for almost 10 years now, 1600 episodes deep. And the only reason we are so good is because we have guests like Heather on the podcast. So thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.

47:08And so you can find us there on any podcast player. I've got two books, How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race and Finding Confidence in Conflict. And then, of course, if you are looking for a speaker or you need a trainer for negotiation or difficult conversations of any kind, the American Negotiation Institute can help. So if you check out our website, we're KwameChristian.com now. You can connect with us there. Kwame, thank you so much for the work you're doing. And thank you for being here today. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. All right, guys. Until next week, keep creating your confidence.

47:37You know I will be.

47:57I'm on this journey with me.