#462: KICK Bias to the Curb with Anu Gupta, Founder & CEO of BE MORE with Anu, Author of Breaking Bias, & Speaker

23:45She became a mom when she was 24 years old. Heck, I didn't know who I was when I was 24. You know what I mean? Right. So like, those are the types of things that I never think about because for me, it's just her, my mom. I'm like, oh no, like there's a human there who's like beyond this title of mother who has a full life and has had also a lot of her own struggles. So what are some of the steps people can apply to their life that you share through your teachings and through the book? So there are five tools, what I call the PRISM Toolkit. And PRISM is an acronym for each one of these five tools.

24:15We really start with M, and then we move our way up to P. And it really starts with M is for mindfulness. So really becoming aware, becoming conscious of anything that's happening, right, in our bodies, in our minds, especially in an interaction or with ourselves or others. So for example, right, I grew up in this cultural setting where being gay is wrong, right? That was the story. And I didn't even acknowledge that until like I started my healing journey when I was 23, 24. I was like, oh wait, who made up that story? Being gay is wrong? What? So becoming mindful of that, you know, like knowing about AI is something that only smart people can do, whatever that means, right?

24:56That's a story, right? But we become mindful of it without judgment. Also, if judgment comes up, let's become mindful of the judgment. Let's become mindful of the shame. Let's become mindful of the discomfort. So the somatic experience is also really important because it's telling us something because in the past we may have been harmed you know bullied or in some way felt marginalized because we were a certain way so then we move to stereotype replacement which is we basically bring to mind a real life example that doesn't live up to that stereotype so being gay is wrong right for me for example i think of pete buddhich right he's an incredible former Marine, super accomplished, also happens to be gay.

25:38He doesn't live up to these stereotypes of being gay is wrong. There's so many, Anderson Cooper, there's so many people. So really think of them and we're basically loosening the associations in our minds with those stereotypes. There's a famous saying, neurons that fire together, wire together. So that's what's happening. And what we're doing is we're rewiring the brain by firing different neurons. So then we move to individuation, which is curiosity. We're basically dissociating the person we're with from the group-based associations that may come to mind. We don't judge the group-based associations.

26:12We just become mindful of them. So if I'm with Heather, who happens to be a woman, who happens to be a blonde, there are all these ideas. Cool. I'll let the ideas come, but I'm really with Heather for who she is versus the ideas I want to believe in. So this is really interesting, right? Where we kind of really individually. And then we move to perspective taking and pro-social behavior. So those are the last two tools. And these are actually tools, they're hard tools, cultivating compassion, empathy through practice. So a lot of times people like be kind or be compassionate, be empathetic, but actually scientists have shown that we can build compassion and empathy or joy as a skill.

26:50And it takes anywhere from three to eight weeks to build these skills. But the simple way we do this is affirmations. I mean, you're really familiar with this, affirmations. And what I did, you know, in my healing journey for two years straight for 20 minutes a day, I would just say compassionate phrases to my cell phone. May I be happy? May I be healthy? May I be safe? May I live with these? Simple. Two years and just transformed so much of the self-loading I was carrying. Of course, we have to do this earnestly, not just like you want something to go away. And at first it can feel really broke, but over time it softens the heart because what it's doing is again neurons that fire together wire together there's a negativity bias in our nervous system so what this is doing is bringing those warm feelings to counteract the cynicism the doubt the hate that we've learned from our surroundings and really reaching in our soul level who we actually are love compassion you know we are completely interdependent so those are the things that this really brings forth and that's for me, what the neuroscience has shown the opportunity for us to really evolve our way out of this thing, which we're seeing everywhere, but I'm really hopeful we can get out of it through these practices.

28:05Yeah. I love that these are not only are they science backed and based, right? Which I mean, that's factual. So this can be done. You've done it, right? You've done it and worked with other people and seen these success stories. You have these, you know, it's all possible. Now it's just educating and spreading this message so that other people, number one aware because I think for me that was the first issue right I didn't even realize I was being biased to myself as you were explaining this I didn't know that I was doing that once we know we've got a problem then we can start yes patient to address it and fix it and implement it and then it can start impacting like you were saying you know how we treat others and how we treat ourselves and how we approach things I was also thinking when you were talking about dating oh my gosh that is yes but that's got to be like one of the biggest issues when you're meeting someone for the first time and the judgment comes up and the bias oh my god okay another fair story here which is quite personal it's actually not my story but i hope my partner will forgive me but basically so my partner was born and raised in texas he comes from a filipino family and his grandfather was the one who immigrated to the u.s they're very christian methodist and like his grandfather had a dream for him that one day as they were walking to church i think it was like seven or eight is that you're going to have a beautiful blonde wife and you will have a white picket fence and you will live the American dream.

29:26So here's this like brown Filipino boy who's gay, but you know, he learned this from his grandfather. So every single person he dated until he met me four years ago was mostly a blonde white man. I mean, of course he has a very diverse group of friends, of course, but it was so unconscious. And I think he, I was, he actually was seeing a therapist because his last relationship hadn't worked out. And his therapist was like asking him to really go deeper and deeper into the type of people he dates and why he dates them. And that's when he discovered he's like, whoa, like I only give chance, you know, dating wise to only one type of human.

30:04What's that about? If he hadn't done that work, if he hadn't broken that bias, which was on such a, at a surface level, he was like, this is ridiculous, but he wasn't even conscious of it. And it was dictating how he was making decisions. Thankfully he looked at that thankfully swiped right thankfully we met and here we are i love it we're engaged right away so oh congratulations i'm so happy for you guys and i'm so happy for him like did he pumped the brakes and said something's not right here i've got to go deeper because so many won't do that i'm just so proud of him that's incredible and that he had a good therapist to help discover that but now that you're telling that's where he just hit me it's so wild that you say this and guys look into your own life peeps, because here's the thing.

30:46As you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, my biological father, my mother left him when we were all little children. There's four kids in my biological family. And so I always had daddy issues my whole life. And I was thinking, yeah, that affects you in relationships. You know what I didn't think of for a long time? It was affecting me in business. And I would always find myself, the relationship that plagued me most in my life was the man I would work for in different corporate environments. And it wasn't their problem. It was my problem, right? It was all about me. I could never do enough for them.

31:20I could never shine bright enough. I could never win, make enough millions for them. I had to drive that sale price higher and the pressure I would put on myself. And again, it's not about them. Forget each one of them. They were different, whatever. It didn't matter. It was about me picking men at work that I could go and try to get to see my value and constantly praise me and nothing would ever be good enough unless I got them to be so ecstatic with me that it was killing me. And, you know, self-work, you start discovering this stuff and saying, wait a minute, I don't work for anyone else but myself.

31:51It's so true. And like, this is what's running a lot of corporate America. Like at least I'll speak from my example, right? So, so many of my friends and classmates from law school, these were the daddy issues that they had. And they were mostly, some of them were mommy issues, but for the most part, it was, these or daddy issues, whether they're men or women or anyone in between, same issues, which is why they would overwork 80, 90, 100 hours a week trying to prove to themselves to the partner in charge that they were worthy, that they were good enough. And I was like, wow, like this is that interpersonal play from their childhood.

32:24But these are also a lot of internalized biases, these biases of unworthiness, not being good enough, you know, needing to prove themselves over and over again, overcompensation as it's known as. And also sometimes it can be under compensation, but they succumb to the stereotypes. I am worthless. I am good for nothing. So why even try? And that happens to us, you know, in different phases of life for some people, right? And so these are the way it manifests and it could be, you know, just heartbreaking and so painful unless we make it conscious like you did, like I did, right? Like my partner did.

32:55Yeah. But so interesting in your partner, much like me, I didn't know that's what I was figuring out. It sounds like he didn't, he was kind of like stumbled into it to say something's going over here with dating. What is that about? And that was the same for me. Why am I making myself so sick at work all the time, but it doesn't matter where I ends up working. I'm falling back in a negative work environments where I'm not treated well. And then I try to get these people to love me and praise me. What's broken here was finally, you know, what changed things then you're not going to be surprised when I did go out on my own, I had this like paralyzing fear of failure that how can I succeed without some man telling me what to do when PS, there was not one person I worked for that I didn't outrun and out deliver on.

33:37I knew intellectually, I was the one always calling the shots. So of course I can do it on my own, but something physically within me, my own limiting beliefs were telling me, wait, you can't do this without a man leading. That was the hardest breakthrough for me becoming an entrepreneur. And I didn't realize it initially. I wish more and more women are listening to you, like, because that's it. I mean, that's the reason why my mom has been where she is all her life, because to this day, she makes more money than my dad. I mean, they're both wonderful humans. But the fact is, she's always needed to feel like she needs a man in her life to validate her existence.

34:10It's a learned story. And it can be unlearned people. It's so can be unlearned. And I'm so glad that you're doing this work because you know, what's interesting. I'm kind of having this epiphany right now is that the work you're doing is not so different than a lot of psychologists that are out there, right? Like it's, you're approaching it from a very different perspective angle, but it's very similar in that you're talking about mindfulness, meditation, self-awareness. You're talking about tactical tips and strategies from psychology that you can implement into your life, but you're approaching it.

34:40And so important. I'm so proud of you too, for doing this, because some people are only going to relate to it with the science backed approach. And they're only going to relate to it because, you know, you've been a lawyer and you like your background is so you're so educated that some people will only listen to someone like that. Some people will only listen to a woman's perspective on it. But all voices need to be heard in order to connect and reach the masses. And this work, as we know, just has to be done. Yeah. And I think we've, like you said, of like, it just seems like it's everywhere, right?

35:09And why do neighbors hate one another? There's like ruptures within our families where we've believed these stories people have told us about each other because of our beliefs that we completely break our relationships. And for me, that's the sad part, you know, for me, like writing this book is, you know, I have family members who are across the political spectrum. And, you know, through these practices, I'm like, oh, like, I can be curious, I can be loving, and vice versa, right? Some of my family members, don't share much of my political beliefs. And yet they still buy me Christmas presents.

35:42They still take me out, right? So there's that love that's present there. And that's what I want to remain, that these are just little things, like little things that become big things, but we have to make them conscious and really break them. And eventually, hopefully, people will be able to talk to one another, you know, across the aisle. So we can actually create solutions that benefit all of us, move away from the negativity, move away from the divisiveness. One of the things that's coming to my mind is that, yeah, this stuff is important. And of course, everyone understands in their own life, you know, how could it affect their family negatively, their work negatively, as we're talking about relationships, etc.

36:22Okay, but let's talk about the elephant in the room, which is Islamic culture right now and Israel and like some topics are harder? Is it harder to address bias on something so big like that? Do you not even start there? Or because I'm just thinking I have friends on all different sides and from different. So I hear all of the different viewpoints and anger and upset. And I can also sit and empathize with each of them when I'm sitting with them. But then I empathize. Do you address it or is it too heated to address right now? You know, it's so interesting that you asked me this because yeah, like you, I have friends on all sides, you know, and also I lived in Israel after college.

36:59I worked at the Holocaust Museum in New York City. I was an Islamic studies major because I went to Israel. So it's been something that's really personal to me. And even though I'm not Muslim, but I'm often confused for one because of the way I look. Again, those associations. But I think none of these topics are too big because the root cause is the same. These are learned habits, learned stories that can be unlearned. The reason why it's so challenging with this particular topic around Israel and Gaza and the Middle East in general, is because the emotions that arise are really big feelings.

37:31They are really big feelings. And folks don't have the tools to manage those big emotions. And that's why I feel like let's start small and really build the resilience and really train our nervous systems, because that's what's going to be helpful in resolving these bigger conflicts. You know, because ultimately, we all want to live. We all want other people to be able to live. why can't we all live together or why can't we come to an agreement so that we can live together right these are kind of the big things but there are reasons you know people will say well this is why we can't this is why we can't and people are so wedded and attached to their stories but they forget a bigger picture lives are at stake so much stress so much anxiety so much money being wasted our environment being destroyed right you just name it you know it's like a lose lose lose all over.

38:21But because of these big feelings, as you would know from any of the therapies, we can't get there. So this is why it's so important for us to be doing this work internally. And of course, for me, my hope is that one day I'll be able to talk about these big feelings and really get to the root cause. But that requires a lot of patience, right? Because people can get so quickly triggered, you know, and they could resort to fear and run away. And when we shut down and run away. We just go to fight, flight, or freeze, right? And that's what we're seeing, sadly.

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40:52So if people find themselves, especially during this time right now with all these political conversations happening, and you know you're going into an environment, whether it be business or family, it doesn't matter. Like you said, we're going to find somebody on one side and the opposite within any room we could walk into. If something starts getting, you know, accelerated and people are getting really emotional, is there something you can do to calm that bias down? And what's the best strategy for somebody to if they find themselves in that situation? It's such a great question, Heather. So start with mindfulness.

41:23Become aware that, oh, it's getting heated and there's disagreements. And this could and we sense that already. This could go in the wrong direction. So the second we become aware of it, I think we start with ourselves and really feel like, oh, how does it feel in my body? Just a quick somatic check. Oh, I feel tense in my chest. Okay. And then basically, then we move to like breathing or whatever we need to do. But then we move to stereotype replacement. I have some really wonderful mentors who are just so skillful. They're able to just, you know, change the conversation, change the topic, laugh it off.

41:50You know, what I do sometimes, I excuse myself and I do 10 jumping jacks. I like literally set up my timer and jump for 30 seconds. It moves the energy around. That's the stereotype replacement because we don't assume to do that. We're basically doing something that's completely different. And then we move to just curiosity. Curiosity is really important because part of why these conversations become diatribes and arguments is because we lose curiosity and we want to be right. So for me, I've had to do this quite a bit. It's like, I don't need to be right. I don't care about being right. I don't care about winning.

42:26I just want peace, particularly with my parents, particularly with my sisters or my best friend. So, but I'm also curious, like, where are they coming from? Three words, tell me more. And I talk about this incident in my book because my dad, for example, he has this like weird notion that anyone who's poor or anyone who's like not doing well, it's because of their genetics. I was like, this is like so dumb for like someone who's a doctor because it's so simplistic. but and of course I've had like fighting matches with him like my entire life except one day this was like eight or nine years ago I was like okay tell me more where's this coming from so I was very hard that I was like breathing in practicing what I you know preach basically and I eventually learned that he had a teacher in grade school who he loved and this teacher really inspired him to become a doctor and he's a very successful doctor now my dad is and his teacher believed in this simplistic view of the world, education and social contact.

43:26Because this teacher is someone he worshipped, right? Or revered, he adopted his views. And for him to drop those views is to drop his teacher. It's that little. It's just so simple and so little, right? And this happens to all of us. But for me, the conversation has since been, it's like, oh, this says nothing about your teacher that you really respect. What a wonderful person and role model for you. And he can be wrong about certain things as the science has shown since then, right? So that's where we can, I mean, if people really want to move into like, but it requires transformation in ourselves first, because I'm not trying to change my dad.

44:03I'm not trying to make him anything he's not, but just being curious with it and being present to him. But I'm sure he was completely unaware that that's where this all stemmed from. Yeah, it was wild. That's an incredible realization. and just it's so powerful because it's making me think what beliefs and stories am I telling that is keeping somebody alive that is no longer here or keeps you in your mind in some positive way to someone that you're not working with anymore or mentor I mean I can't even imagine I've never thought about the power of those connections and what you might do with that some of it is like so harmless like it happens in such harmless contexts but this is why we have challenges around sexism and racist, because these are just little stories, you know, what our dad said or our minister said or our teacher said or what have you, right?

44:52And we respect them. So we believe them. But there's a big information gap and there's a lot of misinformation out there. So this is the importance of breaking biases to correct that misinformation. And I hope that's what more and more of us can do. Like, I didn't even know what being gay was until I was 12 years old, you know, as someone who felt it, because in the culture I grew up in, there was no word for it, right? But then once I learned it and once I broke my own biases and like oh there's nothing wrong there's been people like me for millennia right ancient Greeks ancient Romans ancient Egyptians ancient Indians ancient Chinese you name it I've always been around like it's just I was just born this way and I was like oh okay so a lot of the narratives that we get stuck in are just stories that some person came up with and then they infected our consciousness with it and for us now the goal is are we going to let them rule over our consciousness are we going to become the master of our own destiny.

45:46I choose the latter. Okay. So I want to hear with all of the people that you have worked with, I want to hear a success story of something that you've seen that you feel really proud of, or like a transformation around bias, whether it be a company, an organization or a person individually. The first thing that came to mind is, you know, she's a woman executive at a large healthcare company. And basically she was the only woman at her role at a first unit of like I think she's VP or even senior now probably and basically she always felt out of place not only because of her gender but also because she grew up in poverty so she comes from a very like working class background she had imposter syndrome and as a result even though this is someone who's like high achiever talking to lobbyists and basically has people on her fingertips you know inside there was a lot of turmoil and the way it was manifested this is interesting because This is part of some of the work that I did with her, was it was manifesting with her two kids.

46:48Her two kids who are, well, they were at the time, four and five. She was extra hard on them. They were going to like a private school, but she was like, you have to work harder and just like really tough on them. And of course, she felt really guilty about it all the time. And yet she couldn't get out of this pattern. So this is what we did. We just practiced prison, starting with mindfulness, particularly doing those compassion practices, just for her, for herself, and the little girl within her for like several weeks. And then she started also teaching those same practices to her kids, the four and five-year-old.

47:23It's transformed. It's transformed who she is. She walks differently. She talks differently. She behaves differently. She doesn't have to be the man in the office anymore. She's not trying to be someone she's not. She's more of an authentic version, more successful than she's ever been before at the workplace, and more successful as a mother, as a parent at home. And I would say, we're not supposed to have any favorite students, but she's one of my favorite ones because every six months she'll send me an update. So that's why she's so top of mind because she'll tell me like how her life has changed with such simple tools, right?

47:53We also worked on some of the stories, right? Stories around gender, stories around race. She's also a woman of color. So, you know, just like stories she'd learned and internalized about ourselves that are just not true based on the science, not true whatsoever. She was like, oh, that's how my dad or my teacher or my coworker learned these stories. They're not true. How do you even begin to identify what those stories are? And before you even figure out that they're not true, I talk about the story in the book, but basically like, I'll give you an example, like oftentimes, and you'd be surprised how many doctors I've been with, how many teachers I've been with who believe that race is biological, that there's a gene for being black and white or being Asian or Latino.

48:33There's no genetic basis for race. Race is not biological. It's literally a story that some humans made up less than 300 years ago. It's just completely made up. And actually the science has shown that people who are in different racial categories might actually be more genetically identical than people in the same racial category because they're categories that are made up, these labels. So like to really explain how the story comes about, basically a bunch of guys who love to collect skulls, human skulls, came up with the story of race in the 1700s. And they basically said, this one skull is so beautiful, it must be the best type of person.

49:08And they named it Caucasian. And then they created a really silly hierarchy. But this is the power of story because this hierarchy that they created infected all of our human consciousness. They sound like a bunch of wackos collecting skulls. They were wackos. They're called skull cabinets. Like there's so much research on all this. They were complete great wackos, narcissists, megalomanias, insecure, you know, probably lonely, you name it. And we are stuck in their story. And for me, like when I first discovered this, you know, last year of law school, I was like, are you kidding me? This is why I was bullied all my life.

49:44This is why I was othered all my life. And the more I share this with people, they're like, crap. I remember I did a training at TED. I was a TED resident. I gave a TED talk, but they also wanted me to do a workshop there. and I led one of those workshops with their entire staff, people just couldn't get over it. They were like, this can't be true. You're lying. I'm like, no, look it up. And then they were like, oh, crap. Everything I said is true. I mean, of course, I simplified it a little bit. And then they were like, crap. Like, this is what our kids need to be taught in the first grade. But it's not in our education.

50:16It's not in our media. And as a result, because there's such information gaps, we continue to perpetuate these false stories about ourselves and one another. And just how much time we spend wishing we were thinner, wishing we were lighter, wishing we were more beautiful. Oh, my God. Waste of time and energy. Can you be like, what could we do if we just like loved ourselves and just accepted ourselves for who we are? The answer always will be the answer. And that's why people need to read Breaking Bias. Who did you write the book for? I wrote the book for basically everyday Americans and actually everyday citizens, like parents, grandparents, teachers, doctors, anyone who's a professional, anyone who's a leader.

50:57And the way I define leader is not just someone who's like running a corporation or a nonprofit or a government sector, but a leader in their lives. They're the leader of their home. They're a mom, they're a grandmom, right? They're a step parent, and they deal with these issues with their kids. Mental health is such a big challenge for our kids nowadays, bullying. So it's really for people like me, basically, right? Like everyday people, right? Who are struggling and are also struggling not just to make ends meet because of financial reasons, but struggling with their mental health because of these stories, these lies that we've learned about ourselves and how it's impacting the way we make decisions, the way we interact with ourselves and one another, and to basically inspire them to find more compassion for themselves and others.

51:43And let's build a world where belonging replaces bias, you know, and that's the vision. That's such a beautiful thing. And this book is for me, I mean, having that realization that I think this is the work I do all day long, and yet I was bullying myself and telling myself false stories before I got on with you today, beating myself up. And I'm so grateful you shared that with me, had no idea I was doing it. So there's always more work to be done. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I want to advice folks is like, you know, there's no shame or blame in this game. Absolutely none. And if it comes up, it's wanting to be looked at.

52:20It's wanting to be uncovered. And that's the beauty of this because unless we really unleash it and really kind of pierce through it, it's going to restrict our lives. So this is why compassion and mindfulness are kind of the two wings that are holding the work of breaking bias. Where can everybody get breaking bias? Because I know everyone wants to get the book right now and they want to apply prison to their life. Yes. Anywhere you buy books, you know, whether it's an Amazon or a Barnes and Noble or bookshop.org, you name it, or your local bookstore, whoever you want to support, it's available everywhere in the US, UK, and Australia and Canada, of course.

52:55Well, Anu, thank you so much for writing the book. Thank you for working to break bias in this world today. It is so needed. And thank you for being here today. Thank you so much for having me. It was such a gift to be with you. Oh my gosh, you're such a sweetheart. Okay, guys, get the book, Breaking Bias Now. You can get it anywhere. I will put it at the link in the show notes below. Keep creating your confidence and start working on breaking your bias. Prism is going to teach you how. Until next week, keep creating your confidence. I decided to change that dynamic. I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear.

53:28Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. I'm on this journey with me. Thank you.