Confidence Classic: Break Free From Stigma and Build the Life You Really Want with Dr. Gail Saltz

26:25Do you want to go deep in one place? You want to be a jack of all trades. And people do have different styles. Some people who really have difficulty, I will send for testing. There are career counselors who can do testing and help use at least with a direction of interest for you. What is a good fit for your likes and skill sets? And that has been helpful to people. Sometimes neuropsychological testing will show you your strengths and your weaknesses. And sometimes they're a surprise to people. And choosing things that play to the strengths that you have that you didn't realize were maybe unique to you.

27:05We tend not to, for example, I've worked with people, and this relates to the book that you mentioned, who have difficulties in areas because maybe they have, for example, dyslexia or they have attention deficit disorder. And what they don't realize is the same brain wiring that presents that weakness for them also comes with very particular hardwired strengths. So they may not realize that even though they have dyslexia, they also have incredibly strong visual spatial skills, which make them perhaps particularly able in areas like, you know, artistic endeavors, graphic design, movie making. in other words, a whole host of arenas that have to do with visual-spatial relations.

27:51And they didn't realize that A, they had that strength, B, that strength was useful in these particular areas, and C, because of that, actually, it's something they gravitate to and find really enjoyable. So it is also then about matching abilities that you have to arenas, because let's face it, that's where you're going to get gratification. I'm good at this. and I like doing it, therefore. So those are all important things, I think, to consider when you're looking at what direction to move in. Meet a different guest each week.

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32:00So you said a lot of interesting things. One, when you started out talking about the importance of getting real with yourself, I really like that. And for me, I use journaling as that way to start to really be honest, because when I was alone with me being mindful and deliberate about that, It was easier for me to write it down and then be able to go back a couple weeks later and look at how I was feeling in one moment versus, you know, a week, two weeks, three weeks later. That helped me start understanding, you know, wow, I really am frustrated all the time when I'm with these people or in these meetings.

32:34Something's not right here and getting real with myself. But obviously with a therapist is such another great way to do it. I've been in therapy my entire life. I mean, since I was in my 20s. So it's definitely something that can be so helpful. Yes. Well, first of all, I totally agree with you that journaling is a fantastic tool for many people. It is often easier to write down and then go back and reread your thoughts. And it can be very cathartic to do so as well. So journaling is often a tool used in therapy by therapists. So yes, for many people, that's a helpful thing to do. If you're not a writer and you're more of a talker, you can do really audio journaling, essentially, recording yourself, having a conversation with yourself, and then be able to play that back.

33:25A therapist is definitely useful because they are somewhat of an objective outsider, right? So they may hear things and be able to guide you because they can hear what you can't hear and be able to sort of reflect that back to you. So yes, for many people who have trouble sort of self-analyzing, if you will, seeing an outside party can be very useful. Couldn't agree with that more. The other thing I really like that you said is that you had gone through residency, which is this massive accomplishment, humongous time commitment. in and you know just it's so impressive you did that and then had the courage to say okay this isn't really what I want to be doing and that's got to be humbling in some regards just because of such an investment that you put out there and put into it I know me and the person I've been for a long time in my life there's part of me that when I was hearing you say that I was wondering if I was in your shoes I wonder if I would have just made myself go forward with it because that's what I'm supposed to do.

34:28I might've done that instead of saying, you know what, I'm going to pull the ripcord and my heart's telling me this is wrong. So I'm so impressed at that evolution that you were willing to take. Well, I'll tell you, and I do end up seeing a lot of people who just kept walking the path, you know, because, and believe me, it would seem like I would have been that person because I, you know, was definitely all about doing the right thing, being, you know, good and following my path. And it was, it was actually, I made it sound easy, I suppose, which wasn't intentional, but it really wasn't. It was really, really hard.

35:08It was doubly hard because as I started to sort of speak to my superiors, as it were, to say, you know, I'm starting to have some thoughts about this. I really got a lot of negative feedback because, you know, basically people who are farther along, you know, were like, you what? A, how could you do that at this point? And B, you want to move from internal medicine to psychiatry? You know, I spent a lot of my career now talking about stigma and how do we, you know, manage stigma, which is basically the number one reason people don't get treatment for psychiatric and psychological issues. But at that time, so, you know, we're talking about the late 80s, you know, there was stigma was a much bigger problem than it is today.

35:58And the stigma not only, you know, affected patients, but I think it really affected people who wanted to go into the field. You know, why would you want to do that? Go into psychiatry, like, and so to be honest, I was, you know, I I was a very good intern and resident in medicine. And my chief residents and, you know, attendings were saying, why would you want to do that? And that was really had a very negative connotation. So I felt, oh my gosh, you know, how hard is it? I want to do this because it really interests me, but I'm going to be choosing something that essentially will be less respected, right?

36:37after going through all this, I'm going to choose something, they'll be stigmatized, less respected. They'll be like, oh, you know, another crazy shrink. And that was really hard. That was really hard for me. At the end of the day, I just decided that, you know, was it worth it to be less happy in my lifelong career than to worry about, you know, how I would be viewed by others. And I think that is how I made my decision. It helps to have support of people in your life. Let me just say, you know, across the board, no matter what you're deciding. So I was newly married, you know, my husband, I met as an intern in medicine and he was a fellow in hematology oncology.

37:24So he'd, he'd also gone from internal medicine and then into oncology. and thankfully he was very very on the side of you need to do what you want to do what you feel drawn to do and I support you a hundred percent and he also been like don't be a psychiatrist that would have been even harder I don't you know but that was a factor so having the support of people who know you well, know you super well, and you're able to articulate to them why you want to do what you want to do. And they're able to say, I hear that. I get that. I support that. That is very helpful. No question. How do you advise your patients that don't have that when they have people around them that are saying, no, it just doesn't make sense.

38:15That's not smart. It's a bad idea. Well, I think first of all, I mean, sometimes outside, you know, that's a bad idea. may have validity. So I think it's important to listen to the people around you, but then it's also important to step back and ascertain the nature of your relationship with them. In other words, have they been, are they a person who is, who you really trust is in your corner, does want the best for you? Because unfortunately there are friends who, you know, feel, or even spouses for that matter, or parents. So there are people who, even though there's by title supposed to be in your corner.

38:52They have a history of being competitive with you, right? Or they have a history of undermining you in some way because they feel competitive or because they feel envious or because they feel, you know, any number of things, but you need to look at the history. Are you listening to the person who has historically been supportive in truly wanting the best for you, even if the best isn't always easy, even if the best isn't always easy for them? because, you know, obviously not every voice should weigh the same. So obviously you might ask me, well, what about the person who doesn't have anybody like that in their life?

39:28Well, I would say, you know, that's when seeing a therapist could be really helpful for you because that is a person who that's their job to be in your corner, to want the best for you, even if it means going through difficult things and having a hard time on the way. But sometimes there are people in your life who do serve that role as well. So I liked what you said about, you know, some people that are in your corner, they might think that that's difficult because it would be for them, but it doesn't mean that it necessarily is for you. And I faced that when I left corporate America two years ago.

39:59So many people that cared about me and they were all in corporate America doing like what you said when you were doing internal medicine, the idea that I was going to go be an entrepreneur and create something. And I didn't know what that looked like. People were telling me you're crazy for making this leap. And they did, I genuinely believe they wanted the best for me, they care about me, but it was so out of their realm of possibility that they were putting those fears onto me. You know, at that point, it was, do you decide to accept that, those self-limiting beliefs that they have for them that's working for them?

40:33Or do you decide to say, I'm going to go back to my inner voice, I'm going to go back to these people that I do know are cheering me on. And I'm like, you know, and somehow you just figure out, you know, take enough small steps forward to start saying, I feel better when I'm doing this. I feel like this is the right path. That was the answer for me was kind of taking those small steps and trying to tune out the noise from the people that didn't have the potential. Well, that's another really good point you bring up, which is sort of, you know, is there a way to organize for yourself some test drives?

41:04Can you keep doing what you're doing, but try out what you're thinking about, you know, on the side? Is there a way? And I think, you know, for example, I, you know, some of the things that I did, you know, I didn't know that I'd want to do. But I was like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to try this. And that takes a certain amount of courage. Right. I mean, you know, the first time I did something on television, I was like, holy mackerel, what am I? But I was like, you know, if it doesn't work, I'll learn that it doesn't work for me, but no pain, no gain. So I think some of that, you know, trying stuff, even when you're scared, you know, not letting fear hold you back.

41:47And, you know, you can become pretty fearful in a scenario where someone is saying to you, what do you mean? You're going to, you built this career in finance. So what do you mean you're going to leave? That sounds crazy. I mean, it is scary. So there is a certain amount of, I'm not suggesting take an uneducated leap. I'm saying take a very educated leap. The one thing I would tell you from older patients that I see is that it's easier to live with mistakes than it is to live with regret. Wow. And you may falter, you may be, it didn't work out. You may have to back up. There may be some loss involved, but to never try and to just stay stuck is a tougher place to be.

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44:01That is so powerful to me. I love that. That's such a great quote. So I'll definitely be tweeting that out on your behalf. Thank you for that. That was really good. So you brought up the example of you were, so now you're in medicine, you've switched roles in medicine, you took a big risk, and now you're switching to morph into television, media, writing. And I like that you mentioned the first time you went on TV, it was scary. Now, today you've been on massive, you know, the largest programs that are out there on television. So that's something that I think people forget because of social media and because we can see what's happening in the moment right now.

44:39I felt petrified the first time I went on TV as well. And it was such a small program. people don't see those reels back then 10 years ago of my first speech or the first time I went on a television program or the first time you did because if they did see that and then in you know fat real time saw other slices from the next you know 200 interviews you did they can then see the evolution to how you got to where you are but so often today I just feel that people put more pressure on themselves because you don't see that you just see what's happening right now Well, yes. And actually the way people handle that is to feel that somehow there's not supposed to be a learning curve for them.

45:22You know, they're just supposed to arrive. Everybody is supposed to have arrived. And of course, there are two problems with that. Well, the foremost problem being it doesn't work that way. So then you end up feeling so afraid that you can't just instantly arrive that you never try. And, you know, we're back to, you know, the regret of you just, you just never give it a go because you think that's the only way to do it. But I would also say that you're losing out on the joy of the process, which actually really is, if you let yourself feel it, very enjoyable. I mean, I really, you know, the moving along slowly, sometimes, you know, a step back and maybe two steps forward, then, oh, I learned that or I figured I could do that way is learning.

46:10And learning is really enjoyable when you're not a kid who feels forced to learn a curriculum of sorts that may or may not be something that interests you at all. We've sucked a lot of the joy out of the process of learning. And that really is a very positive experience. It's a way of really coming to know yourself better. and it's a way to get the sort of the most out of yourself, if you will, if you look along the way at the experience for you of learning and of giving yourself the time to do that. So I think many people, as they move along in a career or prepare for a career, could really enjoy that journey if they let themselves a little more.

46:59Well, I'm right there with what you just described because it definitely, it's been difficult for me to enjoy that journey because I'm always wanting to achieve that next goal. So it definitely is a process with yourself to condition yourself to say, it's okay that I haven't done this yet. And to really alleviate some of that pressure, it's been a work in progress for me. So what are some of the key takeaways that you want to share from the power of difference? Well, so as I mentioned, I have spent a lot of last many years now of my career actually really trying to tackle this issue of stigma, which, as I said, is such an impediment.

47:37in the whole mental health field in terms of not only people seeking treatment, knowing that they need treatment and getting it, but also in terms of the suffering involved for the close to half of all Americans at some point that will have a mental health issue. There is so much shame involved that only ladles on the negative feeling about it and makes the suffering that much more poignant for people who are struggling. So I feel that it's very, very important that we understand that the, first of all, you know, these mental illnesses and learning disabilities, they are not a matter of fault.

48:18You know, if you would just be tougher this way or stronger this way, if you just done this or that, you know, you could just undo it. That's not the case that it has to do with, you know, changes that either have occurred in the brain or changes that one is genetically primed to have occur in the brain that results in these kinds of illnesses, but that along with that, it turns out that these changes in wiring and changes in structure don't only cause symptoms. They're also correlated highly with very particular abilities, very particular, often extraordinary abilities that can lead to people being the next Hemingway or Van Gogh or Abraham Lincoln or many people that I have spoken about that really had these difficulties, but they were connected to the very things that made them geniuses, really, of our time.

49:13You know, people who changed their field, people who had extraordinary ability, and that without their mental illness, as it were, that probably would not have been the case. And that you really, if you look back in history at the people who have really changed our world, many of them, most of them struggled with a mental health issue. And I think if people understood that, we would view this issue differently. And I also think that if people understood that, many people would, who do struggle, would have help in learning to play to their strengths, to identify them and utilize them and be living, you know, happier lives, to be honest, even as they struggle with the mental health issue.

49:58Bringing up the concept of shame around this topic is so powerful, you know, discussed so rarely, but I mean, shame is just crippling. I know for myself in my life, shame has been crippling. And when I speak to some of my friends that struggle and people in my life that struggle with depression, it is so few people they ever want to share that with. And there's that sense of being embarrassed and, you know, really the shame, just owning them and preventing them from getting help or addressing it and not getting any support. Because if you're not letting anyone know, you're suffering on your own and suffering in your shame.

50:35And I like that you're linking these challenges to the phenomenal magnitude of the potential, which I've never heard anyone do before. Well, I've been doing these psychobiographies, basically, for many years now, these talks about these individuals. And I was just very struck that pretty much anybody I chose who was, you would consider an extraordinary individual of the past, turned out to have a mental health issue. I saw this often in my practice because I do practice in Manhattan. So I do see a lot of very high-functioning people who are obviously nonetheless suffering. And I saw these patterns that really drove my curiosity about what might be going on.

51:18And so I started, you know, really looking at the research. And, you know, it's very clear. It was very clear. And that's what led me to write the book, actually. It's a very interesting area. And I think we're on the cusp of with the imaging that's available now in terms of looking at the brain and the changes that are happening in the area of neuroscience. you know, we're going to know more and more as we move forward about this issue and other issues. But sadly, even though I think many people could acknowledge that the brain is our most important organ, we really know the least about it to date.

51:57And so I think as we move along, there'll be more information. And how do you advise those that are struggling with shame? What are some of the workarounds that you offer them? So, I mean, certainly to try to get the big picture in terms of the numbers of people that are suffering, which are, you know, if you're curious, you know, look at the website for the National Institute of Mental Health and you will see they are huge numbers in every category. So understand the numbers, understand the likelihood that there are probably many people around you who are suffering as well. You just don't know who they are because you're not talking to anyone and they're not talking to anyone.

52:36consider joining a group. Group therapy can really be helpful for people who are isolated in what they're struggling with, as well as seeing an individual therapist. One can think about talking to the people close to them. And I think, you know, often you're surprised, you'll be surprised to find out that, oh yes, I've struggled with that in the past, or my husband, or my friend, or my, you know, I think it's just a matter of talking. Some people find a comfort, frankly, from talking on social media because they will see that there is a lot of support and more and more people sharing their stories via social media.

53:12So social media that specifically refers to just this, sharing your story. If you're struggling with a mental health issue, all those things can be helpful. And sharing your story helps others too. Absolutely. And that's such a powerful driver to do it. My therapist always told me, Heather, everyone is broken in some regard. You're never alone that you just might not have heard it yet, only be nervous when you see someone that is pretending to be perfect. That's when you know you need to run. That's someone who's really in trouble. That's kind of how she always advised me on relationships. Well, that's someone who at least has their head in the sand, probably.

53:52Right, exactly. So how can everyone find you and find the book? So the book is pretty much wherever, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever you choose to look. And I do have a website, drgalesalts.com, but I do respond to tweets. So tweet me at Dr. Gail Salts. Thank you so much for your time today. And thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. It's amazing. And it's so motivating to hear. You just inspired me to do more. I can tell you that. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having me. And thanks to your listeners for listening. It's a pleasure. All right, hold tight. We'll be right back.

54:28I ask you to try to find your passion. Okay, can we just say this is not my day? I literally just sat down to record the wrap-up of my show, which you're listening to right now. And after I finished it, I went to save it and realized I never pressed record. Oh my gosh, epic fail. I don't know what is going on here, but this is a crazy week. Maybe it's a full moon or something. I don't know. I'm a little confused. So I love to get all of your DMs. I love to get your questions. And today I've got a couple of really good ones. The first one I got is from LinkedIn. Hey, Heather, I'm reading your book about your villain.

55:05So one of the stories in my first book, Confidence Creator, is about a woman who treated me really badly at work when I was younger. Hey, I'm in a bad situation where I have just found out from management that I have a few villains. I was blindsided. Issue is management won't tell me who they are and exactly what they said, even though they're bad mouthing me. These people have said horrible things about me and they're not true. What do I do? As top salesperson, I've learned people might be jealous. But if I rub someone the wrong way, I do want to fix it. What advice do you have? So here's the thing.

55:36Number one, I would ask for a face-to-face meeting with that manager. What was the intent of that meeting? Are you being written up? Did they go to HR? Is this a professional, like, filed on file complaint? You need to know that. If it's not, what was the motive here? to burden you with knowledge and not give you the ability to fix it? Why can't you have a meeting with that other person, with that manager, to address conflict resolution and improve the situation for everybody in an effective manner? Why wouldn't you have that? So if they're not allowing you that, you're not actually written up, and this isn't going in your file, what was the purpose of that manager having that conversation with you?

56:15That's the question that I would ask and I would lead with. I'm confused. I don't really understand what your intention was here. You wanted to make me feel badly about something and not allow me to do anything about it. That doesn't sound like a great strategy for positive morale for the top salesperson in the company or anybody for that matter. So definitely have that conversation face to face. Take emotion out of the conversation. You want to be direct, clear and ask some really good questions because I don't understand that. That's not adding up to me. Something is definitely off there and makes me wonder about the culture at that company and if there's not possibly a toxic environment or some kind of undertow there that something something's not right.

56:58OK, that's not the way you handle a situation like that as a manager or a leader. OK, next. This is a really interesting one. OK, good morning. I'm in the final stages of interviewing for a position. That being said, I'm also testing soon to see if I can give a kidney to someone close in my life. If I get a green light, the surgery would require me to be out for six weeks. Would you recommend I let the potential employer know now during the interview process or do I wait after I'm hired? So the first question I ask is, is this definite? Well, we know it's not because we don't know if this person is going to be a match.

57:30OK, so I liken that to saying potential employer. I may get hit by a bus tomorrow. I have no idea if I will or if I won't. Why would you bring up things that we're not certain of? It doesn't make any sense. And I want to give you the flip side of this. Having been a chief revenue officer at a publicly traded company for years, we would sit in private meetings with the executive team and we would talk about, OK, if revenues do not accelerate to this level and we don't achieve these numbers in fourth quarter later this year, we're going to have to implement expense cuts and we're going to have to eliminate positions.

58:03The last thing that would always happen in those meetings is we would say, this conversation does not leave this room. You know, there can be no breach of the trust that we have and, you know, keeping this conversation just to the to the executive team. We do not want employees to hear about this. It's not guaranteed it's going to happen. We don't need to create scare. So I would use that same methodology when meeting with a company, when you're looking at, you know, being hired by them. If something is a potential and we're not certain of it, don't disclose it, because I can tell you this, the employer would not be disclosing it to you if they are considering layoffs in fourth quarter, which could potentially be your job.

58:39So move forward only disclosing the things that we're certain of and you can feel good about your decision. OK, so I just want to say thank you so much for reviewing my show. Every time you DM me a screenshot of your review, I buy you my$299 confidence video course as a big thank you. Reviews help me so much. And when you share on social media that you like the show, what you like about it, I will always retweet, reshare, repost because it means the world to me to spread the message and create confidence out in the world. So until next week, keep creating confidence.

59:19I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. I'm on this journey with me.