Confidence Classic: Why Plan B Is Holding You Back with Matt Higgins

19:41Heather Monahan:Well, okay. And thank you for doing that because burn the boats isn't something that I had been applying to my everyday life or my business. And now reading your book, I was, of course, applying it all back to my own self, my business, my decisions, and the times I didn't do it too. That was much more apparent to me as I was reading the book. You broke the book down into three different parts, get in the water, no turning back and build more boats. Get in the water to me. I mean, just like it really pulls you in, which I think is great because as soon as you start reading, you're not going to want to put this book down.

20:13Heather Monahan:You know, you're going to get through the majority of it within the first day. Well, again, like I said, not only are there these amazing stories from so many different entrepreneurs, so many businesses that had to go through these big moments, these big scary moments, but you also give us as readers these examples. For example, the anxiety study that you shared that it's actually good to have certain levels of anxiety and research proves that it will drive you to more success. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

20:45Matt Higgins:Yeah, and the book for me, I think when you go on Instagram sometime, there's an inauthentic layer right now to the universe where everyone has a stumble story, you know, vulnerability. And then there's the arc and then the resurrection and the redemption. That's not my life. My life is full of resurrection, redemption, and regression. You know, I'm constantly taking two steps. And part of that is a constant battle with a degree of PTSD from childhood and a degree of anxiety. I am not somebody who walks into the set of Shark Tank and is like, whatever, Mark Cuban, Laura Greeneer, I got this. No, I'm somebody who puts in tons of energy to go ahead and synthesize my doubt.

21:23Matt Higgins:And what I wanted to show in the book from a scientific perspective and then examples is that there is what is called a level of optimal anxiety. It's a balance between if a certain degree of anxiety is going to propel you to excellence and make you prepare and take the steps, and too much anxiety is going to leave you paralyzed and crippled. And that isn't just me saying that. There's a Yerkes-Dodson law that It goes back to the 1920s that was demonstrated scientifically. But then there are all these different environments where it's been proven out, and I wanted to share them. So one of the ones I talk about in the book that I love, I worked for a coach with a coach called Eric Mangini, the head coach of the New York Jets.

22:00Matt Higgins:And at the time, he was given the worst nickname anybody could have because he can't live up to it, Manginius, because he was a mad scientist. And he was like a 37-year-old guy who was always tinkering, tinkering. but one of the things he did at the time which seemed absolutely crazy was that he would put the players in the indoor bubble where there was tremendous you know echo and it was really hard to hear anyway and he would blare um metallica and like the worst heavy metal metallica is actually great the worst heavy medical music heavy metal music to make it impossible for the players to hear and communicate so that they could have to use hand signals and read body language to mimic what it would be like to go to the metro dome when it was really loud so he was always putting his players in these most uncomfortable, anxiety-inducing situations to get the best out of them to prepare.

22:46Matt Higgins:So I use that as an example of optimal anxiety because there's a utility to it. And then I also talk about the unoptimal anxiety, right? The crippling kind. Whereas when I went on the set of Shark Tank, I was so paralyzed that I was going to be discovered as an imposter, that that little kid eating government cheese on Queens was going to manifest on the set, that I didn't want to go forward. And it's like embarrassing to talk about, you know, I debated like, should I put that in there? And I was like, if I don't put it in the book, people will see how I performed on TV and think I was a natural.

23:16Matt Higgins:And that's not useful. Believing that I was good at it instinctively is not helpful. Actually, it hurts somebody who was like, well, I'm not good at TV. I'm like, well, I wasn't either. And I tell the story about how I was paralyzed the night before. I did not sleep for two days. And then I got on the set. And that's when I froze. And I feel like I had to steal my head. There was a moment when I feel like Mark Cuban looked over me. This did not happen, but in my head it did. And he's thinking like, who let this guy hear? Like, who are you? And then the self-talk pulled me out of it. This sort of third person, super ego authority that can get you through things and sort of coaches you through it.

23:53Matt Higgins:And so in the book, I try to break that down and say, okay, what is the right way to use self-talk to get you into that state of optimal anxiety. And on the flip side, last point, the second time I went on Harvard, I had the opposite problem. This was like a layout. I was totally comfortable. Nothing bad happened. I was good at it. I felt good. And I had no anxiety and fear. And I felt a little bit bored. So I had to say, what's my motivational system now that it's not anxiety? And I had to switch to the pursuit of excellence. So what I hope the book does is take these somewhat obvious topics that we all talk about.

24:26Matt Higgins:And we all know, we all know anxiety. We know failure is good. We know, you know, Like we know them in platitudes, but do we know them practically speaking in real examples? Do we know them with authority? Do we know them with people that we can connect to and relate to? And that's what I tried to accomplish with the book.

24:40Heather Monahan:For everyone listening right now, the takeaway here that was really powerful, great reminder for me is, and I'll use myself as an example, when I'm in a nerve wracking situation is not to say, I can do this. I can do this. I'm good enough to do this. It's to say, Heather, you got this. Heather, listen right now. You've got to give yourself that space and put yourself in the third person as if you're coaching somebody else, correct?

25:03Matt Higgins:Yes. And do you find it annoying, though, by the way that, I mean, you've done really well, incredibly successful, two-time author, you got this. I mean, amazing. Isn't it annoying that you still have to keep doing it? I mean, maybe you don't. Maybe you vanquished it. I haven't, even though I wrote the book. Like, my book is aspirational. It's not like I have, just because I have some of the answers to the test doesn't mean I can apply them. But I still have to do it every day. It's annoying.

25:25Heather Monahan:I so see it differently now. It's so funny you say that. I understand why you say that because I, you know, we wish it would just be easy. But because I was in corporate America in the nine to five, which, you know, you hadn't been for so, so long, I was there for the majority of my career. I wasn't waking up scared. I wasn't waking up with anxiety. I was going to the man. I was, you know, I knew the routine. Everything was visible. I knew what next quarter had to come. I knew what I needed to do annually. everything was so clear I didn't wake up with anxiety fear and have to coach myself up cut to now every day I'm freaking out I'm so scared that I've got a meeting with QVC and I've got to get this deal closed and this product has to get on there it's on me how am I going to talk them into it how am I going to get them to feel the passion oh my gosh Heather you've done this before you can do this again I've got I get so excited that I'm talking myself into these fear moments because I know there's something potentially so great on the other side so I don't know.

26:21Heather Monahan:I'm like celebrating every day now because I had so many days where I wasn't pushing myself.

26:26Matt Higgins:That is the right attitude. I think me, I'm like, why can't I habituate my response to this so we can preempt having to have the self-talk? And I think the answer is, it stems from the fact that if you are like you and myself, and you're always putting yourself in these new situations that are uncomfortable, that is the thing that triggers, right? It's the fight or flight response. It's like, oh, I got to overcome it. And in the pursuit of excellence, I'm going to put a lot of stress on myself. So I think it's a prerequisite. So I've come to see that pain as a feedback loop, but I still wish it wasn't.

26:56Matt Higgins:I still wish like there would be an efficiency to it. Like Matt, come on. I mean, you, you teach at Harvard business school. Like you've been doing it before. You never taught a day in your life, but yet, nope. Every day, even talking to you, I'm like, you know, you're amazing. I read up about you. Like, I'm like, we're going to crush this interview. I'm going to put energy into it. So I guess it's by putting yourself in these unfamiliar their circumstances.

27:17Heather Monahan:Well, the good news is everybody listening, you are not alone because we are all in that same boat feeling that same way. Okay. When you brought up the coach of the Jets, and I think I have this right. You'll let me know if I don't. I thought of the story of him kissing the wife's feet and getting caught on video. Can we, I love that story. It was so interesting to me to hear how hard he was on himself and how you saw that as such an opportunity and how it helped to empower and change a moment, a scary moment for him.

27:47Matt Higgins:Yeah, that was on the coach of the Jets, Rex Ryan, the most amazing, lovely person. And it's hard to actually tell this supposed scandal to anyone now, because I don't understand, I don't really get it, what part of it was like a scandal. But at the time, there was some suggestive videos that had gotten out to do with Rex idolizing his wife's feet. Yeah, I mean, you can't make this up. And then there was this constant barrage of covers on the Post and every New York paper, everybody trying to, what's going on? It's so absurd to recount. But at the time, it was actually really stressful and aggravating, embarrassing for Rex.

28:25Matt Higgins:And we had a really close relationship. And I remember talking to him. And I am that person because of my background as press secretary to the mayor, running crises, 9-11. I've been through everything. And people tend to call when the crap hits the fan. And so I remember going to his office. He's pretty upset. And I said, Rex, you got it all wrong. Something does affect like you're going to go on Oprah. Like we're going to do it like a 10 book deal about how to still maintain love for your wife after 25 years. Like it's an interesting story. And he like laughed. And to this day, when he sees me, there's Oprah.

28:58Matt Higgins:The moral of that story is a couple of things. One, when you shed your shame, even though this is absurd that it was shameful, but when you shed your shame, it gives permission for everyone around you to do the same. to all the catastrophization that you had about what would happen when you did it never materializes. And then you regret that you spend so much energy anticipating what might happen because it never, ever, ever happens. And third, when you're there for somebody who's going through the act of shedding shame and you could stand beside them, they will never, ever forget that. And so Rex, to this day, now he owns it.

29:29Matt Higgins:Now he tells a joke, like even like a decade later, it'll still come up on TV. He'll make a funny joke when somebody's foot will come up. And he realized by him doing that, by him owning it, it made the players realize that he was human. So throughout this book, now when I read my own book, I'm like, I really, I shared that. But throughout the book, there's attempts for me to model what shedding shame looks like and show by virtue of the fact that I'm still standing, still writing the book, still achieving new things that it didn't matter. I talk about my GED when I can instead talk about my honorary PhD.

30:01Matt Higgins:I talk about Cardozo High School and Government Cheese when I could talk about Harvard Business School in Boston, right? Like, I don't want to airbrush the end. I want to show the beginning so that you could see this journey of shedding shame. And that's exactly what happened to Rex Ryan.

30:14Heather Monahan:You do a great job of that when you share your cancer story and getting divorced. For me as a reader, relating that back to empathy and understanding and how it helps you with leading people and connecting with people you work with. And I couldn't agree more from my own experience getting divorced, having a baby and getting divorced made me the best and strongest leader I'd ever been in my career because I finally could understand and empathize with people.

30:42Matt Higgins:Yeah. I talk about that in the context of before I got divorced, if I'm perfectly honest, I discussed this in a book because I don't want to come across as a hero that I, because I supposedly powered through everything in my childhood. Now I'm a hotshot 26-year-old press secretary of the mayor. I have all these supposed accolades. I'm healed, by the way. Mom's in the rearview mirror. You know what I mean? I'm fine. And when somebody would go through something, I'd be like, what are you talking about? In fact, when I had cancer, testicular cancer, my first reaction was that of being discovered, which is so crazy.

31:13Matt Higgins:I was so worried that people were going to judge me as now walking dead, that they were going to take everything that I had earned from me in a very tribalistic way. like, and my whole objective was to cover it up. And I remember how day after surgery, I guess I have surgery, you know, remove my testicle after finding out, you know, 24 hours earlier that I have to, I'm like, what? I mean, it takes a while to process the loss of that part of your anatomy. Like, really? Like, what does this entail? But you have to move quick. And then I went home and then immediately once the pain meds were off, I was like, I'm going to lose my job.

31:49Matt Higgins:Somebody's going to take my spot. I got, I'm going to be back eating government cheese. I'm going to be back in landlord tenant court on Queens Boulevard. And then I went the next night, there was a dinner with the coaches and I showed up at the dinner with an ice pack in between my legs. You know, I wouldn't really talked about it. And then, um, I made a joke, a little toast. I'm like, Hey everybody. I was like, let me roll out my new moniker. And I said, from now on, I want to be known as half the balls, twice the man, you know, now I thought that was like really tough. They probably were like, what is the matter with this kid.

32:18Matt Higgins:I did get dog tags made with that. But my point is, if I could show up to the office having just had testicular cancer and had this surgery, then you better suppress your divorce. All these other things that I thought were secondary that you should have gotten over. So the reason why I bring this up, it's kind of a little convoluted, contradictory. I bring that up in the book to say, number one, that is not something to be admired when executives act like they could shoulder everything because now you're telegraphing to your team, we cannot accommodate. whatever it is you're going through. And then two, the hypocrisy that I wasn't able to extend embassy to other people, especially around divorce until I went through it.

32:57Matt Higgins:When I went through it, it crushed me and brought me to my knees, the fear of loss of children and all these other things. But also I had been known as the kid who was always doing better, faster. I was Dewy Hauser, a TV show from the 80s, about a 14-year-old doctor. I was that kid. That was my nickname. So suddenly my identity had become enmeshed with this notion of doing things faster. And now I was taken away from me. And I talk about how fragile we are when we allow our identity to be associated with our track record of success as to who we are. And so I want to be honest in the book about these things we don't talk about, like as an executive, just how corrosive it is when you try to adopt the hero status and what you're really modeling.

33:38Matt Higgins:and after I went through divorce and had a bit of an, you know, what I believe like an aberration one night, I'm spiritual, but not particularly, you know, one religion over another, but I really felt like I heard the voice of God say to me in the middle of the night, Matthew, you know, you are okay. That was the first time I began to realize that we are born whole and we're not dependent both on my track record or both on being validated by another human being and began to reconstruct my identity and self-worth based upon its own merit, you know, and the fact that I have everything I need. So, but the overall point of that chapter is be careful what you're modeling to your team.

34:12Matt Higgins:When you think you're being a stoic and heroic, you might be actually forcing everyone to push their pain down.

34:19Heather Monahan:Oh, it's so true. And now in hindsight, looking back on the leaders I've worked with and who I showed up as, the closer I became to my people were those moments that you actually were vulnerable, you become so much more people are pulled towards you when they see when you share your pain, when you share your shame, like you said, because they finally know they're not alone and it's acceptable and that you're going to help be there to encourage them. So thank you for sharing that. I love this idea of acting on lightning, not waiting for thunder. Can you break that down for us?

34:48Matt Higgins:So it's a nice way to package up how to identify opportunity as a metaphor, right? So there's a great, great essay. If anyone out there hasn't read it by Emerson, it's a piece of writing I return to constantly. It's called self-reliance. And the The big theme of the essay is that we all have these spontaneous insights that are rendered to us by providence and divine. But because we lack respect for ourselves and our insights from time to time, we reject them. And then we wait until they come back to us and we are forced to take our own ideas from another. All of us have seen this. Maybe it's you're watching an infomercial at 2 in the morning like, damn, I had that idea.

35:25Matt Higgins:Or you're watching Shark Tank. And you're like, I had that idea, but I didn't have the courage to pursue it or the respect of myself to value it, right? So I talk, okay, how do we identify a proprietary insight that's worth pursuing? And you have to, I believe, cultivate your mind first by developing that self-respect and then understanding what opportunity is. So opportunity, it appears like a flash of lightning. Not everybody saw it unless you were looking for it, but you distinctly saw that flash. What do you do next? you either begin to pursue it because you value that insight and value you and you start taking steps in that direction or you raise the bar to action and you wait for validation from others, thunder.

36:02Matt Higgins:But by the time you hear thunder, which is a five second delay, right? Then it's obvious to everybody else. So I'm trying to make the point that true opportunity arrives before the tipping point of evidence. And you have to get comfortable if you really want to have breakout success, figuring out how do I act on the lightning and not need the thunder. So it's my way of, I 100 % believe this as a life philosophy. It's the exact reason why I am where I am, but it's very lonely when you have to act on lightning. There's nobody to talk to. And the mere fact that if opportunity and lightning was obvious to everyone, there wouldn't be any arbitrage, right?

36:34Matt Higgins:Everybody would be acting on it. Everybody would see it.

36:36Heather Monahan:It reminded me when I was reading that part, so much of faith, of just having this faith, the unseen, this belief, and or another way to look at it would be through this idea of manifestation and belief before seeing, feeling before seeing. Is that how you see it?

36:53Matt Higgins:Yeah, I think it is. It is really faith. And I tried to package it in language that isn't necessarily about religion or spiritual in case people reject that. It's just fact, right? Like when you hear those words, you realize, oh, that is right. It's an opportunity because not everybody's acting on it. Well, there would be no delta anymore, right? Everybody would have all exactly the same information. And so, and then training yourself to realize, like, it doesn't matter if others validate it. Why would they, same, going back to my burn the boats moment, why, how does it tie into high school and the steps of Cardoza?

37:22Matt Higgins:Well, they didn't have perfect information that I had. Number one, I had a, I had the strangest model of my behavior, which was my mom. Here I have this brilliant person who inadvertently has a, is a, got a GED, which she didn't intend at age 38. But by seeing that and modeling it, it opened up a portal to another world where it's saying, wait, I could deliberately get a GED, right the loophole that I was taking advantage of is fundamentally a rejection of everything they bought into right this idea that I need four years of high school to perform at college where I was like well I don't really think that's probably true like I think that I think I could learn it on my own and fill the gaps and then they would have to accept the idea that subsistence and survival is more important in this principle of finishing the four years where that survival and taking care of my mother was more important than the idea that I would have a stigma of being a high school dropout.

38:11Matt Higgins:Like they would have to subscribe to all that. And then why would I put all that energy when the decision I was about to make was hard already, right? So I talk about this in a book and in life generally, when you're lobbying for the approval of others or lobbying to bring others along, you always have to ask yourself, why am I doing that? Am I doing that because their buy-in is necessary to advance my insight? Or am I doing that to assuage me that I might be wrong because I'm nervous, right? And at the end of the day, most of the times you you don't need their approval, you're doing it because you're insecure.

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44:26Heather Monahan:I ask you to try to find your passion. She's hell. Okay, there's one other example that you shared in the book that I thought was so eye-opening. It was research around being blindfolded and taking a basketball shot and people encouraging or not encouraging you. Can you break that down? I had never heard it before and it was so interesting.

44:47Matt Higgins:Yeah, there's a show out there called Brain Games. It didn't last very long, but I love this show and it's always looking at these different topics and trying to understand the psychology of motivation and whatnot. So one of the episodes they had, they were trying to understand what's the empirical impact of people cheering for you or rooting against you. And so in one of the experiments, they had a woman come along who was terrible at basketball, and she went ahead and she tried to do a couple of, you know, 10 free throws. I think she got zero of them. She was awful, right? Like did just air balls everywhere.

45:17Matt Higgins:And then they put on a blindfold and there was a crowd around and she knew it. And the crowd was instructed to cheer multiple times when even though she got an air ball. And she was so enamored with her own performance. I can't believe I did that. And then they went ahead and they took the blindfolds off. She shot 10 more times. She shot four baskets. This is a person who couldn't shoot a basket if her life depended upon it. And she was able to get a 40 % hit rate. I just thought that was so incredible in an empirical way. And then they did the reverse. They had somebody who was a great free throw, threw a bunch, whatever like that.

45:49Matt Higgins:Then the crowd, they booed, even though they were hitting them when they were blindfolded. and their performance degraded. And then they actually did an elite athlete, and the elite athlete's performance didn't change, which I thought was incredible because they had trained their mind to be able to handle both situations. And so it's a way of simply saying that the internal and external inputs do affect your performance. Like, I'm not immune. The work I put in is not in spite of me being, you know, immune actually is in spite of me being subjective to all these forces. I have to work on it, right?

46:20Matt Higgins:It's not, because I am intellectually curious. If somebody gives me feedback, or is trying to tear me down, it's not like I dismiss it outright. I want to make sure that there's something to extract, that I could get better, but then I need to immunize it from making me suddenly a very bad free thrower, right? So it is a balance. And I talk in the book about how to strike that balance, how to take feedback, how to process information, how to process failure, but not let it cripple you.

46:43Heather Monahan:Oh, it's so good. You definitely break down haters in a way that I hadn't seen it as more useful and how you can turn it into a useful exercise for you, which I had not done before. So thank you for doing that. And one other thing I wanted to highlight, a key takeaway for me personally, I love, you shared that when you do have a plan B, research shows that you are actually not as motivated to pursue with that primary goal. I'm not sure, I don't remember what school, maybe it was in Wharton, maybe it was Wharton Business School. And you gave the example that they had two different test groups. One said, they said, here's your plan, go after this one goal and the other one, they said, here's your plan, go after this one goal, but you also have a plan B in case you need it available and how demotivated and quickly they wrap things up and gave up on that second team.

47:29Heather Monahan:However, that first team delivered on, on their initial goal.

47:32Matt Higgins:Yeah. I love that study because I think people could understand if you have a real plan B when you're pursuing something hard, like it's, it's, it's a really fully developed backup plan, how that could actually erode some of your ability. Like that's an intuitive thing. We What this study showed was that even contemplating it, because all they said to the students, you can think about your plan B. You can think about the possibility that you don't get it. There was no efforts to go in that direction. It was purely theoretical. And that materially impacted their motivation and their likelihood of being successful.

48:05Matt Higgins:Their performance materially degraded. So the point of that is the mere presence of even a backup plan affects your performance. Now, when I talk about this, a lot of people, and I'm sure the reviews will say it, will reflexively recoil and say, this is irresponsible. Like you're basically saying that you should just go all in. And well, what about people have to pay the rent? People have children. You know, what if it, what if it fails? I talk a lot in the book about going, burning the boats doesn't mean burning the boats with you on it. You know, it means actually, what does it take to you to fully commit under the circumstances and a framework for you to go ahead and do that?

48:38Matt Higgins:One of the core elements of it is to process risk factors. The reason why we don't fully commit often is because it's not because we are necessarily afraid of what's going to happen. It's because we haven't processed the worst case scenario and assimilated that information and realized, all right, I'll be all right. I'll get another job or whatever the rationalization is. And so I think most people bypass the act of processing the risk because they don't actually want to be confronted with the decision. So part of the burn the boats philosophy is yes, submit a great risk. Yes, think through the worst case scenario.

49:14Matt Higgins:Yes, make provisions so that you could feed yourself and your family. Because once you've done that, you'll perform better. You won't have the same anxiety. So burn the boats is not a blueprint for irresponsible risk. It's a blueprint for synthesizing risk so that you can go all in without worrying about the downside because you've already processed it.

49:32Heather Monahan:Oh, I love that. And so true. I have so lived that and I couldn't agree more. Who did you write this book for?

49:39Matt Higgins:Oh, I love that question. And I really do, because I feel like when you see the title, somebody will think, oh, it's jingoistic. You know, it's not for me. It's belligerent. It's, you know, some white male businessman, you know, telling me about what to do. I wrote this for hopefully, first and foremost, the unseen, for somebody out there who says the dais cast, who thinks because of the circumstances I was born into, because of some of the bad decisions I made that put me into circumstances I regret, you know, it's too late, right? I wanted to strip myself there to give anyone any entry point to my journey and the journey of 50 other people to say, all right, well, he dropped out of high school and got there, or he had cancer, or he got divorced.

50:23Matt Higgins:You know, again, it's not an autobiography, because I'm not as interested in my own story as I am interested in me as a vessel to transmit this idea. I wrote this book for anybody out there who frankly thinks it's too late or it's not for them. And you'll notice, I don't know if you noticed, but I begin with a female entrepreneur. I end with a female entrepreneur. My life has been guided by strong women. The first was my mother who have been inspirational. So I hope when someone reads this book, say this is a more thorough compendium of success than I've seen in a long time. And there's somebody in there that I could grab onto.

50:55One of my favorite parts of the book was at the end of my Harvard class, I was talking

50:59Matt Higgins:to two students, Black women, and they were making a really interesting nuance point. We had an entrepreneur in the class and he was talking belligerently and gesticulating and using a curse word every two seconds, kind of breaking the decorum of, you know, the Auguste Harvard Business School. And I thought it was theatrical and entertaining. It's just in style. And one of the students says to me, you know, I could never talk like that in this class. And I was like, well, why? She said a couple of reasons. One, I'm a woman. Two, I would be, I'm Black woman and I would be judged. And I'm not only concerned about me being judged, I would then therefore be ruining it for every woman who comes after me in the same.

51:37Matt Higgins:And I said, wait, tell me more about that. And she says, I carry the entire weight of my race and gender on me when I come into this room. And it made me realize, wow, despite what I've ever been through, right? You know, all the poverty and all that, I'm still born as a white man with the advantages that come into it, right? and I never had to represent anyone but Matt Higgins. Like there is no stakes, you know what I'm saying? And here's somebody who not only has to break through, has to burn the boats, but also has to make sure in doing so, she represents her community. I put that story in there for a reason to say, I hear you and I see you.

52:13Matt Higgins:And that is true. And it is a way to distinguish yourself from me. Nonetheless, you wish to break through, you wish to burn the boats. You don't wanna hedge and hesitate. You want great things for yourself. So let's see you and let's hear you and let's acknowledge you and then let's do something about it. So that to me is one of my favorite parts of the book because it is easy to say, to remove yourself and say, well, that's not for me. You were able to pull that off for whatever structural advantage. Like, of course I have structural advantages, but at the same time, we still both want the same things.

52:40Matt Higgins:So that's who the book is for.

52:42Heather Monahan:Well, I will tell you being an avid reader, I love the book. Book was so eyeopening for me, so helpful. If you are going through any period in your life where you're questioning things, you think it's too late for you, or you want to make a leap and you're not sure how or what next step to take, get Burn the Boats. Matt Higgins, where can we get Burn the Boats? Where can people find you? How can people catch up with you?

53:02Matt Higgins:Burntheboatsbook.com is my website. It's on Amazon. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. I feel like it's like a warm bath. I'm on Twitter and everything else, but if I'm honest, I'm on everywhere else reluctantly. And LinkedIn is amazing. So find me on LinkedIn.

53:17Heather Monahan:All right. Burn the Boats, guys. It's by Matt Higgins. Matt, thank you so much for writing the book and thank you for being here.

53:22Matt Higgins:No, thank you for having me. This was amazing.

53:24Heather Monahan:All right, guys, until next week, Keep creating your confidence. You know I will be.

53:34Heather Monahan:I'm on this journey with me.