How to Stop Delaying Happiness While Pursuing Big Goals with Jess Ekstrom

26:21And it might be not auditing the thing that you're chasing, but just how you're going about it, how you think of it. So those are a couple things that I wish early on in my career when I didn't have the success. It was like no one knows what they're doing. Success is redefined by each person in each season. And then audit the things that you're chasing and why you're doing it. Because so many times I've chased something because I'm like, I saw you post it. Oh, I should do what Heather's doing. I should do what this. And then it's like, oh, no, that she has a different success fingerprint than me.

26:52Like, that's OK.

26:54Heather Monahan:Yeah, that that's such a great exercise. And for anyone that's listening right now, that's like, oh, my gosh, I need to preorder this. I want to take this test. What's a site that they need to go to in order to get their finger? Yeah, just extra dot com slash making it. I mean, guys, you're going to need to check this out and you're listening before the May 5th live launch, then you can get this bonus, which is so worth it. And you also get the audio book for free. If you're listening before May 5th, you get the audio book for free when you pre-order. Yeah. That is incredible because that's no joke.

27:27That's a lot. I know. I had to work with my publisher. I'm like, please. Yeah. So you get the audio book for free.

27:32Heather Monahan:Oh my gosh. I love that you did that for everyone, Jess. Okay. So when you were talking about the kids and how people will say to you, enjoy it. I remember people would say that to me when my son was little and I wanted to light them on fire because it's so annoying. Again, back to you're through that window of time. You know, you've got teenagers, kids in college, whatever, you can't relate. And people also look back through a lens that's a rose colored glass. You know, when it's many years later, they're like, oh, they were so incredible back then. The funny thing is when we're far away from something, either before it's happened or after it's happened, it's distorted.

28:09Heather Monahan:It's typically only when you're in it that you're kind of like, oh no, this is like, there was a nice moment today, but there were also a lot of really hard ones too, right? Like you see more clearly when you're in it. Yeah, I mean, it's like when you get out of a relationship and you're like, but look at what they did for my birthday. And iPhone brings me these memories of all these good times. And it's like, no, you don't remember all of it or the reason why you left. And I'm not saying that parenthood is just like that, but both things can be true. Like this can be hard right now and it can also be fleeting.

28:40And so I think I'm trying to like, And that's the same in our career. Like, yeah, not every day is going to be like butterflies and sunshine at work. And it can also be the thing that keeps pushing us forward and the thing that we know that we need to keep pursuing. And so, yeah, the whole I am now I'm very conscious about when I see like someone with a newborn or something like I just like, how are you like, I'm not telling you anything to do or don't miss it. Like, or to tell myself, like people were like sleep when the baby sleeps. I'm like, okay, yeah, we're not, we're not doing this right now.

29:19Okay.

29:20Heather Monahan:So I have a different angle and I'm super interested to hear what you think about this. My situation now is that I'm single and people will say to me, oh, enjoy, enjoy that. You shouldn't be rushing to meet someone so quickly. Enjoy this time. You're going to be married someday. And you're going to look back on this and wish you had enjoyed it more. So equally it's feel But you know what? The funny thing is that I noticed with myself and I wonder if you notice this or if you have a hack around it. In my mind, I'm like, I can grasp that. And listen, let's be honest, people, I have a lot of fun in my life, right?

29:50Heather Monahan:So I do enjoy a lot about my life. I have a great life. However, when there's something that you feel like is missing that you really want, you think about those things like that target that, you know, you want to essentially achieve or that person you want to meet. so when I do that what I find myself doing which I think is funny is I'm like I could enjoy it more if I knew the when the thing was gonna if I knew when I was gonna be the guy and I don't know why I'm like this and maybe it's my fear of uncertainty my fear of unknown or whatever it is I'm like oh if I knew it was in three months three days whatever whatever the number is that I'm fine But the not knowing is what kills me.

30:28Yeah. I remember when my husband, he like left his job and had a new job lined up. And there was like a one month window where he was unemployed, but had his like next job in a month. And I was literally like, life will never be this good again. Like, you know, you have nothing to do now, but, and you know, when like you have the stability of when, like enjoy it. but I could totally see how the limbo can drive you crazy so how are you managing that like what are you does it make you like want to frantically find someone or are you taking the time both can

31:09Heather Monahan:be true as you just said before right so like there was windows of time where I was frantically like I'm gonna go on a date with everybody and then it turned into dirty dating and this was not headbands of hope I'm like no we gotta fire this concept like that is not gonna work out people, right? No, no, no. Please do not apply. You are not welcome. So I got away from that. And I'm like, that's ridiculous. And then I kept reminding myself, come back to the present moment because this is always, this happens when I get way ahead. Like, you know, oh my gosh, what if I'm still single four months from now, five months from now?

31:37Heather Monahan:So I have to bring myself back to the present moment. I practice what I'm grateful for right now. And then I remind myself of times in my life, like I'll go back to like all different past relationships. And like every time It's like the next one is a better fit for me and a better fit. And so I'm like, oh my gosh, Heather, just this time is passing right now because that person's going through something or you're developing into someone that can be at that next level in a relationship. So I kind of turn it into, it's a positive, but it's just like anything, it's a lot of work. And like you said, whether it be parenting relationships or your business, there's all these windows of uncertainty and you thinking this one thing is the right thing that you need to go after.

32:14Heather Monahan:And once you achieve it, you finally made it. And just so often it might be great for a moment in time until you shift gears to that next thing. I mean, is that kind of what you've seen with your own? I mean, it's literally if we're going off of the dating thing, you know, there's literally the term the honeymoon phase. I mean, you're in this period where it's like, oh, this is so great. And then it's, you know, supposed to fizzle. And I think that that is a completely normal reaction to like any kind of achievement, relationship, any kind of good is not going to last forever. And that's why things are good.

32:52If it was anything that's constant becomes white noise. And so the reason why there's ebbs and flows is like, because we're not supposed to like live life at a volume 10 all the time, or else it wouldn't feel that way. But I think that like when it comes to that like letdown, it's actually there's science behind it. It's called the post-achievement letdown. And they studied this with Olympic athletes like after the Olympics, just this huge like emotional crash. I mean, Michael Phelps has been forthcoming about it. Simone Biles has been forthcoming about it. and it's when we put so much weight on one thing like olympics a wedding uh this presentation and then it's done or it's gone or it didn't play the way that we thought it would and it's like but we played this so many times in our head and so that's why it's just these i think it's just being cautious about having so much weight in a singular moment or a singular outcome there's this like painting technique and I promise I have a point where I'm going to tie this in called pointillism and it's where like the artist puts a bunch of dots on a canvas and when you're looking at it you're like what are you doing you're just putting a bunch of dots on a canvas and then when you zoom out all of the dots create some sort of painting some sort of like picture of something a tree a landscape a person it's really cool if you look up pointillism and I like to think about all of the moments in my life are just a dot on my canvas.

34:29Like I'm not living and dying by this one dot. My life isn't like make or break by this like one dot. Did I get this speaking engagement or did I not? Did I hit the New York Times or did I not? Was I the perfect parent today or not? But when you take a second to like step and look back at what's coming together, you can ask yourself like, well, do I like where the collective dots are heading? Because in the end, that's all that matters is not like one moment, but a collection of them. And so a lot of times we think about making it as like what I was talking about at the beginning of this podcast, like this acquisition or this one thing, this one moment, when really it's a collection of a bunch of them.

35:17And then you, we have these moments in time, if we choose to take it, where we take a step back, look and ask ourselves, do I like the direction this is heading? Do I like the painting that all of these dots are putting together? And if you don't, then have the courage to change it and say, well, what's my next one going to be? Because sometimes I have looked at it and been like, you know, I don't really like what I'm doing right now or why I'm doing it or how I think about myself or treat other people along the way. And if it wasn't for like those moments where I look back, then all of a sudden you just like years go by and you're like, holy shit, I've painted this thing that I just don't even like.

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38:42Heather Monahan:Now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com slash confidence for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash confidence. I ask you to try to find your passion. That was my whole experience in corporate America. And eventually at the end, you know, after being in a negative environment for a long time and not even noticing it after a while, because it's your job and you just show up and do the job and then you're on the hamster wheel. And I wasn't self-reflecting. So I find that super helpful that you point that out. So everyone listening right now, challenge everyone to take a step back and look if those collective dots are leading you somewhere you want to go.

39:23Heather Monahan:And it's interesting, as I mentioned, I was in Costa Rica for this speaking engagement. However, they had me stay extra days because they wanted to do some workshop work, which typically I don't do. And so it was like a spending more time around people I didn't know, spending more time in an environment that was a little uncomfortable to me because a lot of energy. You're getting a lot of energy. It's not the people I'm normally about. Like it's a totally different environment, right? Everything was different. And on the flight on the way home, Instagram, you know, listening to me talk serves me this really interesting thing, which was all about how when you travel, most people will make bigger changes or significant changes to their life when they get back home, because they're seeing a completely different vantage point.

40:08Heather Monahan:They're immersing themselves in complete uncertainty, new food, new people, new environment, new area. And so then you get contrast to where your collective dots are, which is back at your normal home, your normal routine. And I took a moment, And I was thinking about that. And I was like, this is so interesting. So I thought to myself, for me, is something I can take from where I was in the last five days and apply that back to my routine collective, all these points being brought together. And I started thinking, I can make different health choices because this was a very health and wellness conference.

40:37Heather Monahan:And I can have more green in my home because the hotel was green. There were just all these things that I could think of. Yeah, I could take these little moments and add them back to my regular life to make my regular life better. but it's not something I would typically think of because I'm just running to get home and get through customs and like jump in the Uber and find out where my kid is. And dude, we get Instacart and, you know, you just get in that rut or routine of trying to rush so that you can just, you know, be at peace again, instead of saying, wait a minute, how can I zoom out? Like you were saying before, how can I zoom out of this and then say, what's some of the good that, you know, could impact me and could help me evolve from all of this.

41:15That's such a good point. And it's so true. Like, I feel like most of my revelations come when I'm on an airplane and I'm like, I should do this or why haven't I been doing that? And you're right. It's like when you get plucked out of your routine, it gives you the opportunity to say, like, I'm looking at it from over here, not in it. And I went like a few years ago on this silent retreat. I am not someone to do this. I'm a professional speaker. I don't sitting in silence. But that's why I needed it. I was like, I just really need to get out of my head. And one of the things that was done at the end of it, which was like one of the most like transformative moments of my life, during this meditation, he, the guide said, just like imagine you waking up in your bed at home, like and you're kind of a bird, like looking down.

42:08Literally play out your whole day in your head. Watch yourself, like brush your teeth, go make your coffee, all these things. and it was like he asked us a series of questions like what are you proud of but I was like oh watching myself like from afar and I know this sounds like really woo woo and akuna matata right now but I was like it just gave me the chance to ask myself like do I like the dots I'm putting on the canvas and an overwhelming amount was like no because I realized that the amount of time that I am not present with my family or the people and I'm on my phone or I'm thinking about work or something like I could almost see myself like doing bath time with my kids, sitting there scrolling something.

42:55And I just wanted to like say like, what the fuck are you doing? Like this is like be right here. And so that was when I really made, I mean, and it's been a work in progress, but like a big change on the boundaries that I have with my phone because I took a second to like step outside of myself and ask like, do I like where all of these daily decision and these dots are heading? And this like one department of presence with my family, with my kids, with the people in my life, I was like, I feel like I could be better at that. But it literally took me like visualizing myself and my routine in order to do that, which is kind of crazy.

43:38I hope it It doesn't have to be that extreme for anyone listening, but that was what did it for me.

43:43Heather Monahan:That's so interesting because I've never heard of that exercise before, but it makes so much sense. And when you were sitting there talking and explaining it, I was going through in my own mind. And that's one of the things I'm grateful for, for this random, you know, event in Costa Rica, because it was so polar and we were cold plunging, like the crazy things that I've never done in my life, riding horses, like all these things about trying to get you out of your head, right. and into your body for health and all this different stuff. But when you just had me think through what you were going through, I started - Yeah, what came up for you?

44:14Heather Monahan:I was thinking about my day now being back in my home office, not being around people all day, being on Zoom. That was the first thing that came to you. I don't like that, right? But it's interesting until you really like pump the brakes for a minute. There's plenty of good about being at home and being on Zoom because it makes things easy for you. And I can be home to make my son dinner tonight. Like there's plenty of wins from it. But then when you kind of step back and say, there are plenty of wins, but at the same time, I prefer to be in person with real people. And like, it's just interesting because our dynamic as a society has changed so drastically because of technology, so much for efficiency and good, but so much that really isolates you.

44:54Heather Monahan:And I often forget it until I'm speaking at an event and around so many people. And I don't know if you have that same thing. Like, yes, it can be exhausting and draining being around so many people and giving them all your energy. But at the same time, it can be so rewarding versus being at home a lot or for you at home. And then also with little kids, which isn't riveting in regards to the conversations you're going to have. Right. Yeah. Do you ever experience the like when you get home from a trip, like the speaking, like that post-achievement letdown that I'm talking about? Yeah. A hundred for every single time I do.

45:32yeah and it's like um it's funny because you go from this like adoring i'm on a stage in front of people that are you know asking me to sign something or like and then all of a sudden to just being back to reality which part of it is like i love like coming home and and everything And then there's another part of me that is, asks myself like how much of my energy and just like daily tally of what I have in the bank goes to like impressing strangers versus, you know, at home. And I get that, again, that's like a privilege to think about it that way. But I do think a lot about like, am I giving it all to a room full of people and then coming back on E to the people that matter most?

46:27and I think one of the ways that I've been able to help with that like that phone thing in the kind of walking through your day really helped me see this was I don't necessarily have to go up there in front of people and have this super energetic talk show personality after having kids it actually helped me put some of those moments those speaking moments into perspective because for me before having kids, it was like, this is the most important thing I'll ever do. And I agree that it's really important, but my life will go on if someone doesn't laugh at my joke. Like my life will go on if Bill didn't think my talk was valuable, you know, like, whereas before that would have broken me.

47:18And so I almost feel like I have become a better speaker and a lower energy given by just caring a little bit less. And I don't mean caring less about the people. I don't mean caring less about the purpose, but I mean caring less about how I'm perceived while doing it. And I think that that has helped me protect my energy in meetings and on stage. It's just like, I'm going to figure out what they need. I'm going to see how I can help, but I'm not going to try to make them love me. Cause that is just draining and uncontrollable.

47:57Heather Monahan:It's so good. It's so true. And I, that used to consume me. That woman that I used to work with in corporate America couldn't stand me. And it drove me crazy. I wanted, we want people to love us, right? Of course. The minute you let go of that and let go of that outcome, cause it's none of our business, how others feel like it's just so much easier mentally stop draining yourself get your energy back take your power back one of the things that I know when I gave my TEDx talk which you've done a couple of them I put so much pressure on myself which was so unnecessary you know build it's the most important talk of my life and I still think it's so funny that I thought that but I at the time I did what I having to do because I had so much pressure on me was to say Heather and literally I talked to myself and a third person like this, Heather, if you help one person as a result of this talk, you've done your job and let it go.

48:47Heather Monahan:Just lower the expectation, lower the pressure, because the more you lower that pressure on yourself, the better you're going to perform, the more you you're actually going to be, which means the more you're actually going to connect with people. So let's get back to the book here. What does making it mean to you that you were trying to convey to the listener? Or is it really about the steps in showing them how not to lose it. Which is it? Is it about how you can make it? Or is it more about how you can keep it together while you're on your way to finding out making it actually is? I'll tell you a quick story from the book where I had just gotten like bad news from, I can't remember if it was like an agent or an editor for from a previous book that they didn't like it.

49:30I got like terrible edits and or at least I thought they were terrible edits. It was probably just edits. And the I was talking to I have a business coach, Aaron Foley, who's awesome. And I was talking to her about it. And she was like, what kind of problems do you think a New York Times bestselling author has? And I was like, probably, you know, I don't know, like social media, getting edits, doing this, then she's like, exactly. Don't try to achieve things to have zero problems, do things that have problems you're excited to solve. And so I was kind of putting this like making it label on things that I thought would solve problems.

50:16Like if I just got this status, this much, this thing, and everything was always outside of me. It was always like, I want to sell this amount. It was never internal. And once I realized that like, oh, there are not these like thresholds that launch you into like a zero inbox, no problems. It's all about like, do you like the problems you're solving? Do you like the people that you're with? Do you like the lifestyle that it affords. And it just kind of, it just changed from these like singular finish line outcomes to a more evolving process that just makes it more fun and also more scalable. There was research around companies who had a singular outcome that they were going after and how it dropped, motivation dropped to the company, like an IPO or acquisition or a big product launch.

51:15And then they looked at companies that did those things, but then had sustained motivation, like their numbers didn't drop. And I'm like, what did they do differently? They looked at Google. And instead of Google's mission being like create the world's like leading search engine, they said, we organize the world's ideas. And so it wasn't a finish line. It was a mission. It was like, there's always going to be more ideas that need Google. And so the fact that they were able to switch from like, we're not creating the search engine, it's like we organize the world's information, that's going to change.

51:54That was like a game changer for me in this book and making it without losing it is like, how do you create goals, have a mission that aren't this singular focus, but even outlive you? Like I think about what I'm doing today and yes, I want it to be great for me, but I want it to be like something my great grandkids one day might experience of like, hey, there's a lot of women on stages. And I can say I was a small part in that. So sometimes it's just not about achieving your goals. It's about being a part of things that might even outlive you, which I think is really a cool way to think about it.

52:36Heather Monahan:Yeah, being a part of things that matter to you is everything. It's so funny. I was driving the other day and randomly saw a sign about a charity helping children. And I had been on charity called City Year for 10 years. I was on the board. And then as I became an entrepreneur, I didn't have as much free time on nights and weekends as I did when I was in corporate. So I had pulled back from the charity. And when I saw that sign immediately, I was like purpose calling. Like I could just I could feel it physically feel it. And here's the thing. Sometimes the work you're doing is meaningful and important and you're helping people and feel good about it.

53:07Heather Monahan:But you're also like, I feel like I'm missing something. You can sometimes add something else into the mix. You don't have to completely walk away for something. Oh, for sure. For sure. I like to think about it. Did you read, what's it called? Marie Kondo's Spark Joy during the pandemic when everyone was reading it and decluttering their homes. So I think about it when it comes to work. One of the things that like she would do is say like, take an item, hold it close to your chest. Does it spark joy? If yes, keep it. if no toss it. But then there was this part of the book where it's like, well, what happens when you get to like a stapler or a hammer?

53:43It's like, this doesn't necessarily spark joy, but like, what if I need to staple something? And what if I need to hammer in a nail? And she talked about, remind yourself what that thing does that gives you joy. So this stapler helped me like hang up my kids artwork or in their room or this hammer helped me build a like bird shed you know for like all the birds in my yard and it's the same thing with our job we don't have to I think like sometimes just follow your passion and do what you love is so overused but I think that any work can be meaningful work if you take the time to connect it to a human like the thing that you're doing might not be exciting or enticing, or you might not love every task, but I guarantee you can connect a task to a greater outcome for someone else.

54:35Someone else you probably won't even meet, but it's there. And so I think that meaningful work isn't something that's like assigned at a job where you have to leave to find it. It's something that's created by you in your role that takes an extra effort, but is worth it in the long run.

54:51Heather Monahan:It's so worth it because it will give you that intrinsic joy that we're all wanting. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are people who have the same job, same roles. Someone thinks it's the best thing they've ever done that's so meaningful to them. I mean, I'm speaking at the YMCA this week for employees and been like doing some research and some case studies. And, you know, it's like there are people there that, and I see, I'm a member of the why, that their job is to clean the equipment, but they're also like counting people's reps and encouraging people on the treadmill. And then you have other people that are just like, not at the why, but at other gyms that are just like, when do I sign out?

55:32I've cleaned the bathrooms. Where do I go? So it's like, well, what's the difference between the people who truly think that their job is meaningful and the ones that aren't? It's usually not the role. It's usually how you think about it and how you connect it to people behind it.

55:46Heather Monahan:Oh my gosh, that is so true. And we can all see that everywhere. It was making me think of the hotel I just stayed in. And some of the employees were so vested in you having a great experience and what they can just get magical and different. And you could see the joy in their eyes and you were just drawn to those people, right? So it's like you become more interesting, more beautiful, more exceptional when you actually care about what you're doing. So tell us, who did you write the book, Making It Without Losing It for? making it without losing it is for anyone who maybe is struggling with like ambition towards the future with feeling like grounded happy prideful in the present so i love speaking to women but it's not just for women it's for men too and anyone who um doesn't want to sacrifice like productivity and peace i want to do both at the same time you can grab a copy wherever books are sold very soon you can grab it now but it comes out uh may 5th yeah okay and for the pre-order they're gonna if they if you pre-order it now you are going to get the audio book for free you'll get the audio book for free and the success fingerprint gpt so uh you can go to jessextrom.com making it jess thank you so much for all you're doing to bring so much good forward to share these incredible learning teachings and help so many people.

57:09Heather Monahan:I so appreciate you. Heather, you're the best. Thank you so much for having me. Guys, go get the book. Don't miss out. You're getting a free audio book. You have no idea how many hours that takes to create. I am so impressed by this. I've never heard of anyone give their audio book away. Go get this book. Go to her site. I will link it in the show notes. Until next week, keep creating your confidence. You know I will be.

57:36Heather Monahan:I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. I'm on this journey with me.