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Creative Pep Talk - Episode 470 Summary
Podcast Overview Host: Andy J. Pizza Guest: Carson Ellis Episode Title: 470 - How To Create A Body Of Work By Collaborating With Your Past Self Episode Description: The episode explores how Carson Ellis used a journal from her 20s to inspire her latest work. It emphasizes collaboration with one's past self and the importance of storytelling through art.
Key Themes and Discussions
- The Power of Collaboration with One's Past Self
- Ellis discusses her discovery of a journal from 2001, which details a week of her life as she moved to Portland.
- The journal served as an inspiration for her new book, One Week in January, which merges past experiences with current artistic expression.
- The idea of "collaborating with your past self" is key; it encourages artists to revisit old ideas and experiences as prompts for new work.
- Illustrating the Narrative
- Ellis views illustration as a form of writing with pictures, where visuals add depth to the narrative.
- There’s a conversation about how rich illustrations can communicate emotions and themes that may not be present in the text alone.
- Examples from literature and media (e.g., *Mad Men*, *Kazuo Ishiguro's* works) highlight the importance of showing rather than telling.
- DIY Spirit and Artistic Freedom
- The episode reflects on the DIY culture prevalent in Ellis's early creative days, emphasizing the value of experimentation and collaboration without permission.
- Ellis recalls a time when her creative process was freer and less structured, contrasting it with her current, more professional approach.
- Artists are encouraged to embrace experimentation as a way of developing their unique voices.
- Navigating the Creative Process
- The discussion includes how to find prompts for creative work, particularly when feeling uninspired.
- Ellis shares her journey of blending different mediums and approaches to create cohesive and engaging pieces.
- The Role of Writing in Visual Art
- Ellis reflects on her relationship with writing, noting her struggles with narrative storytelling.
- She emphasizes the power of simple poetry and the freedom of creating stories through visual art.
- The conversation aims to inspire visual artists to consider writing as a viable form of expression.
Key Takeaways
- Nostalgia and Memory: Exploring past experiences can deepen creative work and provide context for new projects.
- Illustration as Narrative: Effective illustrations can convey emotions and themes that enhance the overall message of a story.
- Embracing DIY Culture: Freedom in the creative process allows artists to experiment and discover their unique styles.
- Creative Prompts: Revisiting personal history, including journals and past artworks, can spark new ideas and inspiration.
- Writing and Visual Art: Artists are encouraged to integrate writing into their work, even if they don't traditionally identify as writers.
Episode Conclusion The episode concludes with a "Call to Adventure" challenge posed by Andy J. Pizza, encouraging listeners to explore their metaphorical pockets, or personal experiences, for inspiration in their creative work. This emphasizes the connection between personal history and artistic expression, providing a pathway for artists to reflect on their journeys.
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Show Notes:
- Co-Writing / Editing: Sophie Miller
- Audio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones
- Soundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY?
- Links:
- [Carson Ellis Website](https://www.carsonellis.com/)
- [Chronicle Books - One Week in January](https://www.chroniclebooks.com/products/one-week-in-january)
- Other mentioned works: *What is Love*, *Do Is Talk*, *Wildwood*
- Previous episode with Carson Ellis: [Episode 355](https://creativepeptalk.com/355)
Sponsors:
- Immaterial: A podcast examining art materials and their historical significance.
- Riverside: A platform for recording and sharing professional-grade videos and podcasts.
For further insights and resources, visit [creativepeptalk.com](https://creativepeptalk.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02On the creative journey, it's easy to get lost, but don't worry, you'll lift off, sometimes you just need a creative pep talk.
0:21Hey, you're listening to creative pep talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator. And this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice.
0:44Carson Ellis is on the show today. I am a huge fan of Carson Ellis's art and illustration and her picture books like Do Is Talk and Home. I'm so thrilled to have her back on. She was on an episode of Creative Pep Talk with Mac Barnett back on 355. If you like this episode, go back and listen to that one. We talk about a book that they made together that is really great called What Is Love. She is here today to talk about her new project, which is One Week in January, which is a very interesting, gorgeous book, which is her taking a journal from 2001 that she kept for only a week, and then using that almost like an illustration prompt to create a body of work or a gallery show and share the journal.
1:43It's a really, really interesting project. And I had a blast talking with Carson about so many questions that I had about the book. I've been a fan of hers for a long time and of her husband, Colin Malloy, who is the front man of the band Decembrists. that I'm also a big fan of. Had a blast chatting with Carson. It's just such a privilege to talk to artists that you respect as much as I do, Carson. And in this episode, a couple of things to look out for. There are a few themes that I think you should tune into. One is the ongoing theme of this year, which is the independent spirit, the DIY spirit.
2:32This book catalogs a period of time when they were early in their creative journey and they were just throwing a lot of stuff around, like collaborating with friends and just making stuff without anybody's permission. And a lot of that stuff went on to be really great, important to me, works of art and important to a whole lot of other people too. And I think that you're going to catch a little bit of that DIY independent spirit in this. Two other things that this episode is great for finding prompts on what to make work about. That can be a really difficult thing for some folks, myself included.
3:14Like, okay, I have time to make something. What should I draw? What should I paint? What should I make? What is the substance of the work? And I think there's a lot of interesting prompts throughout this episode. And also if you're intimidated by writing, I feel like, um, Carson Ellis's books that she's written are beautifully written. They're funny. They have personality. And yet she is, you know, she started her creative journey much more, uh, firmly within the direction of being a visual artist. And so we talk about that, how to think creatively about writing, hopefully to help you feel a little bit less intimidated if that is how you feel.
3:59Stick around for the end. I'm going to come back with a little tiny call to adventure CTA, a way to put some of these ideas to practice in your own creative work called What's in Your Metaphorical Pockets. That sounds interesting. And we'll get to that to the end. And it is a different way of approaching how to infuse meaning into your work. That's a little bit more, you know, maybe mystical even or hard to explain, abstract, not as literal. And it's something that I think happened in the work in this book. Anyway, without further ado, let's get to the chat. Here is my conversation with none other than the great Carson Ellis.
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6:41So I'm really excited to talk to you. As you, I think you probably know, because you've been on the show before. I'm a really big fan of you and of your husband. Thank you. And so I feel very squarely in the exact target market of your new book, probably more than most. And so I really loved it. And I'm excited to talk about that and other things. But the first thing I just want to say that I was, I loved a ton of things about this book. But the thing that stood out to me is that probably more than other books that I've encountered, it feels really illustration forward. And that feels like such a substantial part of what this is about.
7:28Did that feel true to you? Yeah. I don't think it's a book that does much without the art, I guess. Yeah, it's a huge part of the story, which as an illustrator, that is just really validating and interesting. I think about illustration as writing with pictures. And so I don't really think about it like fine art. And so I think this book is such a great illustration of what illustration can be. Well, thank you. Yeah. So I love it. I don't know if you could just start by talking a little bit about what the book is. And then I've got a bunch of questions I'd love to kind of pick your brain with.
8:17But yeah, tell us about the new book. So the new book is an illustrated journal that I kept in 2001 when I was 25.
8:32and it only covers one week of my life. And it happens to be the week I moved to Portland, Oregon from San Francisco. So it's like me moving into my new house and it doesn't read so much like a journal. It's not very, it doesn't reveal much emotionally. It's really more like a catalog of everything I did every single day for a week. and I couldn't initially figure out. I found it. I happened upon it in late 2020. I must have been looking for something because I found it in a box full of letters and photos and stuff that I hadn't looked at in a long time. And it was just eight single spaced pages on printer paper in a box.
9:19And I was like, what is this thing? And I read it. And it was like this perfect time capsule of this week because I had just written down every single thing I had done. I had like left nothing out. It was like everything I ate, everything I watched, every book I read, every person I saw, every time I checked my email. and I just really liked it. I thought it was funny and I read it to my husband. He thought it was funny because it was like this perfect snapshot of our life at the time. And I also thought it was sort of moving because I was like, oh, look, there's me at 25. It's like this very clear picture of me and what I was up to.
10:03Not a lot of what I was feeling because it's really, you know, spare and dispassionate. It's like, I've sort of gone out of my way to not say what I'm feeling in this journal, but it's so it's just kind of like a record. And it turns out, I, I couldn't figure out what it was or why I had kept it. And so I reached out to this friend of mine who's in it a lot. And I was like, do you remember anything about this? And she was like, I do. You were worried when you were 25 that you were losing your memory. And so it was some kind a memory exercise where you're writing down everything you did all day in an effort to like revive your memory or something I don't really know, improve it.
10:42Train your brain. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to train my brain. I can't remember where the idea came from or I definitely didn't remember that that was the point. I needed someone with like a better memory. So it didn't work per se. You can't remember what it was for or what the purpose of what of it was. So memory didn't stick, but all these events did. Yeah, they did. Thanks to the fact that I wrote them down. Otherwise, I wouldn't remember any of this stuff. So I found it and I thought it was interesting. And I just had this desire to illustrate it and turn it into a book. I don't know about you, but for me, that desire can be elusive.
11:23I can miss that. I don't know. to me, when I've heard you do talks, I saw you at Icon do a talk in I think 2014 maybe, and just have followed you and heard you talk about art. It seems like you're, I think of you as someone more in touch with that. When that desire comes up, for me, I have to do a lot to catch those feelings of, oh, I want to make pictures about it. But was it really obvious or are you just kind of more in tune with that? Well, I think I am just sort of like a consummate illustrator, always looking for things that could benefit from visual art, you know, like anytime, anytime you could add pictures to something to make it more interesting or sophisticated or complex or to have it say more, I feel like I am sort of attuned to that.
12:18And I think when I read this thing, I loved it on a very personal level and in a very personal way that I knew probably wouldn't translate to the rest of the world. I don't think this would be much of a book without the pictures, but I think mostly I was really taken by how much was left out emotionally. There was so much going on in my life at the time that was very charged and sort of difficult and, you know, I'm kind of like in love in it, but not fessing up to that or acknowledging it. And so there's all these unspoken feelings. And I felt like, you know, like the best illustrated texts work well when the illustration is doing something that the text is not.
13:07Certainly that's the case with picture books, right? Like a great picture book manuscript is going to leave a lot out. so that the illustrations are telling part of the story. And I read this thing and I was like, oh my God, so much of the story is missing that could be told in pictures. So I sort of wanted the pictures to be like the emotion and the psychology that was missing from the text. That's really interesting. Yeah, like it makes total sense. Like I am, as a picture bookmaker, I think the first person I really heard talk about this is your friend, John Klassen, who talks about, I've heard him talk on a few different occasions around the idea of the pictures really telling half of the story and how essential that is in a picture book that if the text says it all, you don't really need the images and how you can also do the kind of mismatch pictures and words for funny effect, which he does really well.
14:06And so it's interesting to, from coming from that world to recognize this as almost a prompt because you're like, oh, there's so much missing. That's perfect for pictures. And I think another thing that's funny is that, you know, you said this in the intro to the book, and then also you've said it a couple of times here about like the, the lack of emotionality in the text. But the funny thing is I completely forgot that as I was reading it. And I think it is something about the combination of pictures and text, it kind of reminds me of like Mad Men where it's like a show don't tell thing. You're not telling us this is what I was feeling, but in Mad Men, there's so much like any great show really.
14:50Like they're not saying I'm angry or I'm in love. Like you don't need any of that. You just need, this is what happened. And this is what they looked like. Like this is what, you know, this is what they're showing on screen. And because all the way through So it is very factual, but it's also really funny. The times where you talk about back when – this is back 2001, right? That's what it was. This is back when your inbox was a place where you kept going back to, and then there was nothing there. And you're like, oh, I'm going to go back again. And so there's all this funny stuff happening. and you can, you pick up on all of, maybe some of its context of like kind of knowing where your story goes later.
15:36But I do think that it doesn't feel, the energy between the pictures and the text, it doesn't feel void of emotion. It just feels like much more, it also makes me go back to similar times in my own life and knowing what I must have been feeling to be spending my days this way, you know? Yeah. I mean, like you said about Mad Men, though I would expand that to like all good literature and writing and film. I don't know why Mad Men was the one. I think it's such a - But that is what it kind of feels like. It's an excellent example. And I would say like another excellent example would be the novels of Kazuo Ishiguro.
16:24Okay. These books where like, you know, like Remains of the Day, these books where everything is in the dialogue and everything is watching these characters sort of like mournfully go about their business. And nobody ever expresses emotion, but you know exactly what they're feeling. And I feel like that's just good writing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I think we do. And like, yeah, I guess I read this thing and not to say I wrote something brilliant when I was 25. But I think there's so much that I'm not saying, but you can just watch this sort of like broke, lovelorn, aspiring 25-year-old artist go about her day and you're like, yeah, I know.
17:07I know what she's going through. I don't need to be like, too tiring. Today, I woke up and had a cup of coffee and cried because I was lonely and broke. like nobody cares about that diary right yeah but also go ahead what you're saying no no it's i'm done i'm just gonna say the other thing i thought was really uh that i think people that listen to this show will really appreciate is um you know knowing that you went on to get a Caldeca honor and make books like Wildwood that are congrats being turned into a movie, right? Yeah, that's true. And, you know, and seeing things that Colin has done and all this incredible stuff to people that are fans are legendary.
18:00It feels like those earlier days are deeply relatable to most creative people. And I think the thing that I found feeling really like inspired by was I remember in my own ways, the earlier days feeling like, what the hell am I doing? Like, what is going on? Like, does this matter that me and this person are writing characters and like, whatever. And, um, it just made me feel like, uh, it just made me feel like, oh, this is super validating to any artist at any stage to just see the value in their friends and making stuff together and not knowing where it's going to go because you really don't.
18:49I mean, I'm sure you were enthusiastic about what all your friends were making, but at the same time, there feels like there's a sense there. We're like, we don't know. We're like doing, you know, We're just like living in a warehouse, doing stuff, drinking. Does that feel accurate? Yeah, it feels accurate. We're definitely just living in a warehouse and drinking and doing projects, some of which go places and some of which don't. And I think like, yeah, another thing that maybe would be affirming to it, I'm very curious to find out who will actually read this book, because I think, like you said, you're sort of the target audience, right?
19:30Like people of a certain age who, and especially people, I would imagine Portlanders of a certain age, because it's very Portland, Oregon specific, like Portland, 2001. But I also think if younger people who are creative did read it, maybe there would be some, I would hope that one thing they would get out of it is that I was just doing all of these things and so many of them went nowhere. And I look back at that 25 year old artist and I have a lot of tenderness and also envy for her ability to just like try whatever pops into her head. And, and that my art practice is not structured and my days are not structured.
20:14I am just like getting ideas and following them until I, I tire of them and then abandoning them and some of them become things and most of them become nothing. But it's all just laying the groundwork for the practice I have today, which is a bit more boring. I love my job and I love the artist that I am and I like the art that I make, but I also don't really know how to be that 25 year old, like flailing, super experimental artist anymore who doesn't know what she loves to do yet. And I miss being that artist. So maybe people who are more in that stage of their art careers could see that there's so much goodness in that.
21:02And while it's great and miraculous to be able to, at some point, figure out how to make a living off your art, there's also something very free and wonderful about not making a living off your art and figuring out what kind of artist you are and what kind of art you make. yeah and there's a trade-off to where you know uh later on you get some certainty about like there's lots of things i like about having somewhat of a sense of how i approach something there's a lot of stuff i really love about that and i make a lot of stuff now probably more consistently that I like. Um, but it's this trade-off of, I also see so much less possibility both in life and in creative work.
21:51And then like, you know, when I was in my twenties, it was much more like, who knows what's going to happen and who knows what I could make or what I could become. And that's really, um, you know, energizing. I think that, uh, the other thing that I felt really strongly. So one thing I kind of stumbled into a theme on the show recently, which was, uh, you know, being really frustrated by the way that tech and businesses have moved in on creative spaces on the internet, especially. Um, and you know, early, just kind of what always happens where early on, maybe they're doing more help than hurting.
22:33And then eventually it just kind of strangles out the creativity, which is just a pattern I think that happens over and over. And then also just watching bands that I love go back to independently releasing records and just seeing like, feeling strongly that like DIY indie aesthetic and indie spirit is potentially a way forward beyond some of the ways that it's all kind of got choked out in the world and online. And that's the other thing I loved about the book is that this is, at least from what I imagine, this is an era where that was a little bit more at the center. It's before a lot of this culture became, you know, by the time it hit me in like 2004, even it had, I was in Indiana and for it to travel that far, it already had gone way more mainstream.
23:35And so I love this feeling of, you know, that when I was a kid, I was like, or when I was a young artist, I was like, always thinking about, I want to work with this artist or be a part of this culture or whatever it is. And realize looking back, like it was the ways that, you know, your friends were trusting you to make the band posters and commission you on things and like getting excited about each other's work. Even that I'm like, man, like, what was, I was like, I wonder what your work was to where these friends were excited for your stuff to be the face of it. You know, like it's really cool.
24:13It's, it's funny. Cause well, you've read the book. So you know that the whole time I'm working on this poster for a movie called Pie Fight 69. And it's probably my first proper illustration gig. I don't think I was paid for it, but a friend of mine in San Francisco, who I worked with, made this film. And it was going to Sundance, which was very exciting to me. I still don't really know what that means. But I really didn't know what it means when I I was 25, but I was just like Sundance, you know? And so they, they, they had me make a postcard for it. And, um, I, so I, I had forgotten all about this until I found the journal and reread it.
24:57And I was like, what did that postcard look like? So I Googled it. Yeah. Yeah. Is it out there? It's out there. Okay. Now everybody else is Googling it. Thanks to everybody. I would like everyone to google it because it's really really bad it's really bad and it's so funny because the whole time i'm like it's like one of kind of this the centering things in this book is like this thing that i'm just plugging away and i'm very excited for the opportunity and i was like what did that look like i think i was making some cool art around that time but i also was making some very very bad art your listeners should definitely google pie fight 69 google image search the movie He's great.
25:38Okay. Just find that postcard. Um, do it. And, um, and then there was like, I feel like I was making kind of an interesting leap then too, but so were, so was everybody at 25, you know, Colin was a musician who was kind of just figuring out what his music sounded like too. So for everyone around me, it was like a kind of, um, transitional creative period. and I think so much of the collaboration that comes out of that time is just like who do you love hanging out with and how kindred do you feel to them creatively not necessarily like how how evolved are their illustrator skill illustration skills because mine were not at that point I was like drawing exclusively with sharpie I think and gel pens and stuff and had just moved from San Francisco.
26:33So I was very inspired by the street art scene in San Francisco, which is not really, it's still up there in my brain as like a sort of formative inspiration, but it hasn't really, it doesn't inform the art I make now, 20 years later, very much. So I think I was still trying out all these different hats and ways of working. And all this to say, I don't think I was an amazing artist And that's how I got the job making, working for free and for pizza for the Decemberists in 2001.
27:09I don't think it looks bad. It looks really different to what you make now. I would say it's bad. It's cool. It's got its own thing, but it doesn't, people wouldn't associate it with you or what you do. No, I think it's unrecognizable to me as my own art. I also think that font at the bottom is like really a funny choice. But anyway, but at that time, like right around this time, right around the time I moved to Portland and I had been like drawing everything in Sharpie. I started working with different mediums like pen and ink, you know, like a nib pen and brush and ink and just things, mediums that I, that were being used by the comic book artists I loved at the time.
28:00And so I think I was sort of evolving a more sophisticated way of working as an illustrator. So from 2001 to 2002, my work would get a lot better, I think. Yeah. And just since you were so generous with your past self and past art, I would just want to tell you, I was going to tell you this at the end, but just pass on my apologies because in some way I feel a little bit to blame for why the Decemberists video on Yo Gabba Gabba wasn't so great. Was it not great? I don't remember. They did a great song. It's the great outdoors, but I did the illustrations for it. You did? It was a year out of school and I was not prepared at all.
28:49And actually I talk about this on stage as like, cause I later got to work with Nickelodeon on a bunch of stuff and they were repeat client, but that was like, I was so, I was all about the music and I was so, I'm like a Nickelodeon kid and I just really blew it. I just was not. Andy, I don't recall anyone in our camp thinking that that was lame. It was mostly just very exciting for us because our kid, our older kid as a teenager was like, yo, Gabba Gabba age back then. So it was more just a thrill to be like, look at dad. on your kids show that you like. It could have been so much better, but I had to offer it up since everyone's going to be Googling yours and now they can be Googling one of my moments that I'm less than proud of.
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29:38I just wasn't ready. This is a fun show if we just kind of go back and forth telling your listeners to Google stuff we're embarrassed about. That's a weird podcast, but yeah, I think that could be something. One thing that I wanted to ask you that I don't feel like happens very often is, you know, when I get, if I ever get interviewed about books I make or projects I do or whatever, often the things that I like about it the most are not things that come up organically. And I wanted to just see if for you, maybe what your favorite part of this book is or part of the process of making it was. And yeah, I don't know what possibly comes up for you with that.
30:27Well, easily my favorite part of making it was that I illustrate books a lot, right? I illustrate a lot of picture books, especially in novels for kids. And as you know, that involves at least some sort of editorial process with an editor and an art director and maybe also like a sales and marketing team and whatever. and so it always involves notes and revisions and revising and pushing back or not pushing back and all of that is my least favorite part of this job I think like I love so much to and maybe every illustrator feels this way I love illustration it's like the thing that I was drawn to most immediately as a kid and I it was I mean I guess it's like the first art we're all seeing probably as kids anyway, but I, I've always loved it and I've always wanted to do it.
31:21But I also think I sort of have the heart of a unsatisfied, uh, fine artist, you know, like I, I want to make bodies of work where nobody gets to tell me what to do and I make only what I want to make. And, um, and then I hang it all on a wall and that's the job. And so I think I got to combine those two things with this book because I worked with Bridget Watson Payne. She was an editor at Chronicle. She was working at Chronicle when I hit her up about this book. She retired or quit. She's more of like working as like a freelance editor these days, but she quit and kept editing my book for Chronicle.
32:08So the book did come out with Chronicle, but she's no longer a Chronicle editor. But the point is she was very hands-off and she didn't give me any notes. And I also didn't have to do sketches. I didn't have to sketch out the whole book and be like, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And then like get her feedback and take those notes. And the cover was sort of a different process, which I knew inevitably it would be, but all the art on the interior, I did get to sort of read the manuscript and then sort of make a body of work inspired by it, which feels a little bit different than illustration.
32:45It's like illustration, certainly illustrating things that are happening in the book. But I think illustration to me also implies like a lot of editorial and revision work and this didn't. So that was my favorite part. Just making a body of work exactly how I would make it in a vacuum with nobody giving me any feedback about it. It was kind of a dream. I totally understand that. I don't know why, but I'm exactly the same with notes. Like I try to be, you know, easygoing and easy to work with. And I think I probably am, but I don't always feel like that. Like often, especially if it's something that you feel strong about, which most of the stuff I'm doing, hopefully I do feel pretty strong about it.
33:30I feel pretty like this is the thing I want to do. And I actually got, cause I used to work a lot more in client work. I feel a little bit spoiled by picture books where there's a little bit more authorship. If I ever do client work now, the notes are almost always so much heavier. And I'm just like, this is what I wanted it to be. So I totally get that. And I actually just spoke with Bridget a week ago and I was telling her that we were going to talk. I know her from the work that I've done at Chronicle and people over there. But I was going to ask you about that too, because I figured this was a more hands-off book.
34:10And I wondered if there was any, what maybe the editor role looked like there, or what kind of collaborative support looked like from that angle. Yeah. It was an interesting process because Bridget wasn't hands-off at all. She was really involved and she helped me make a lot of decisions. And, um, but you know, the text is pretty much unedited. It is the eight single spaced pages that I found in a box. So there wasn't much editing that needed to go into it. She helped me figure out things like practical things like, Hey, do I need to change people's names in this? Like, how do I navigate that whole thing?
34:54And she helped me figure out the visual approach to it because initially I thought I might work with a lot of different mediums. I kind of wanted it to be like a mishmash of mediums. But we both felt like as I started making work for it, that the strongest work were these paintings. And I liked that because it made the paintings kind of like a cohesive voice, like the voice of the old painter lady who's painting and the voice of the young 25 year old who's writing became two more kind of distinct, you know, distinct voices. And so I just she was a sounding board. She's super smart. And she's also really visually minded.
35:39She's a good visual artist as well as a good editor. And so she just helped me kind of shape it and helped me make decisions. But so she wasn't hands off, but she also didn't make me give her sketches and she didn't give me notes on the art. She gave me notes on the art. Like I was like, should I scrap this? And she'd be like, no or yes, that kind of thing. but um but it was i i felt very very autonomous in a way that i don't think i ever have before illustrating a book it was pretty pretty fantastic yeah i think that that uh is clear in the book too um my wife sophie was uh reading it and she said something i thought was really true speaks to exactly what you're saying which is it almost feels like a gallery show in a book too.
36:33Yeah, that was what I was trying to do. It feels like a collection of paintings in a way. And then this is kind of the through line text-wise. That was exactly the vibe I wanted. And I actually wanted the design of the book to be more like an exhibition catalog than like an illustrated book. So that was something I kept pushing for with the designer was
37:02picture this as like a, like an art catalog so that we really feature the art. It's not like it's little here with text wrapping around it. It's like the art comes first and then we sort of fit the text wherever the text fits. I love that because it's an interesting prompt for artists. I always think about what interesting things happen when you kind of mash together mediums in ways that maybe they aren't usually done. I have a buddy who just put out a film and in a way it feels like, I mean, the story is great. It's hilarious. His name is Julian Glander. I don't know if you know this guy, but he has a film that just was at Tribeca and it's 3D animated and it's beautiful.
37:50And the story's great. It's hilarious. But then And in some ways, it feels like a Trojan horse for his music too, because there's like these long like music video cuts like in it and it works really well. But I just love this thing of pushing a medium or coming at a medium like a book from the lens of a gallery artist. Why did you make that choice? Like what was it? Why not just do a gallery show? Is it because you're just familiar with books? Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I mean, that's very, I feel like that's really liberating for artists to just, because sometimes that's what makes something interesting is that you're coming at it from a different point of view.
38:35Yeah. I mean, it is also a gallery show. And what's sweet about it is that the gallery, it's a gallery show that's opening a few days after the book comes out and it's opening in a gallery in Portland, my gallery, the gallery that represents me. And my gallerist is my old friend, May, who lived in this same warehouse with me and who I met like a few months after I kept this journal. So it's like a long threads and really sweet. And I did when I set out to illustrate this journal and to turn it into a book, I had the gallery show as in my mind the whole time from the beginning that I would make art that didn't only look like illustration that ideally could stand on its own and we would have a show and then we would also make the book.
39:25But I think I just, I think I'm just like a bookmaker. It's just what I like to do. So when I, I saw, I, and I think that's what, how my mind is always kind of formulating projects is like, how does this become a book? Um, where are the pictures and what are the words? And what in the show are these like the final paintings? Yeah, they're the final paintings. There's about 30 paintings in the book and we're framing and showing 20 of them. And then there's another 10 that'll be on view at the gallery. And yeah, it'll all, yeah, I'm, I am more excited about the gallery show than about the book events that I have planned on a book tour.
40:09Like, I think that'll be fun too. but there's so many variables to it. You just don't know. It just, it can be complicated, I think. And I've had this same, I've been represented by this gallery for a long time, like probably 15 years or something. And a lot of the shows that I've done with her have been sort of piecemeal where I've been like, oh, time for an art show. What have I got? And this feels so intentional. I made this body of work and it's a lot of work and we had it framed by a really good framer. And so I'm just excited. Yeah. And I also feel like if I'm putting myself in your shoes and I'm thinking it's, it's interesting, I have to do a lot of like mind games on myself to start things, finish things, whatever, you know, whatever it is, pull things off.
41:02And I can just see how knowing how to do a book, not to say that you haven't done gallery stuff, but knowing how to do a book was a way to also create this larger body of work that was cohesive and fit together within this theme, which is really cool.
41:41We'll see you next time.
42:03To Risiken and Nebenwirkungen, read the packaging and ask your doctor, your doctor or your office.
42:33Start your free trial at shopify.com slash au. There's kind of two threads that I want to make sure I hit. One's illustration, but the other one's more on the writing side. I relate to you in that I definitely feel like an illustrator, like a visual artist. And yet so many of the really important things that I've made have come from combining that with writing or just writing stories, telling stories. And, but I, I didn't come into creative work through that. So sometimes that, or for a long time, it was just really intimidating. Um, and so I think your practice is so inspiring because you've come at writing in such a creative way.
43:23Like I have a lot of illustrator friends or people who talk to me through the podcast. and I'm saying, you know, if you're just like an actor that's not getting roles, like think about writing your own script, even if you're not a writer, even if that seems intimidating to you. And I just think a lot of illustrators just get stuck there. And I feel like everything that you've written has been like a totally different take on writing and to an amazing effect. Like do his talk. Like my, honestly, very few, uh, books are as memorable for me, like reading with my kids as do his talk. And we went over that cracked what I think is the code to the whole thing.
44:09And this, and it's just one of my all time favorite books. And it's such a different take to writing. There's not even an actual language that it's written in. That's as creative writing as you get. Can you talk about your relationship to writing versus pictures? Was that a journey to get to the place where you would write your own books? I imagine in some ways you're thinking, Colin's a writer. I'm an artist. I don't know. I don't know if any of that's at play, but I'm curious about it. I think that was at play. Like as you can, if, if you've read this journal book that we're talking about, it's like where we're just beginning our kind of collaborative life together and we're working on this story and I'm making pictures for it and he's writing it.
44:57And it basically, it's like the bones of what would 10 years later become Wildwood. And I think there is something about that dynamic to have this like partner in all things in your life who's a writer. And then, um, I don't know. I, I think I have so much respect for narrative storytelling and I have so much respect for great picture books, um, that follow that structure. And I think I am not wired that way. I can't seem to tell a good narrative story that I'm really happy with and that I think is worth illustrating. So that's, I think, where all of these kind of unconventional approaches to writing books come from is that I'm so picture-minded.
45:50I'm so visual-minded. I want to tell the story through pictures. And so I think I'm thinking of a story with pictures first and then figuring out after the fact how to incorporate some text into it. And in the case of do his talk, it was going to just be all pictures, um, and no words. And I only added that invented dialogue because it just felt kind of static. Like there wasn't enough happening in it. Um, but that book totally works without the, without the dialogue. It just makes it a lot more funny and interesting. Um, and like, uh, home and in the half room, which are the other two kids books I've written, they are both just really simple poems, which is something I feel, I do feel comfortable writing a simple poem.
46:41I don't feel comfortable writing a story really. And I, the book that I'm thinking about doing now, I have a couple of picture books that I'm sort of thinking about mulling over. And one of them is a sequel to Do is talk. And the other one is a store, an autobiographical, probably long picture book about living on a farm, which I do. And I've started writing this thing and it's the opposite. It's not a narrative story, but it is so like rambly and discursive. You know, it's just all like, and then this, and then this, and did you know that you can make walnut ink out of walnuts and here's how to do it.
47:20And, oh, Hey, guess what? Let me tell you something about chickens. Like that's the whole book. And so I'm sort of like, I don't know who I am as a writer. And maybe that's a good thing is that I can be sort of whatever I can sort of follow the, whatever impulse I have that seems to best serve the art I want to make. And then that's just kind of the writer I become. I don't think I have like a, a writerly voice that I am leading into or that I'm developing. I mean, yeah. I mean, from the outside, I definitely think that you, I'm not going to disagree with your take, but I will say that you, it's very distinctive to me.
47:59And it's also very funny. I find almost all of your writing to be really sweet and funny and also playful. but I just I think that that's really encouraging to people that are intimidated by words I think there are some really sophisticated minds that make visual art that when they go to work with words it just feels scary there's rules there's you know all these things that can make them feel like not getting started and yet I mean yours yours are like you said they're very poetic and And they're also, I don't know, I'm a huge fan of both the art and the words in your books. Thank you, Andy. That's so nice.
48:45I really mean it. And the last thing I want to ask you about was the illustration side, because the other thing I think is maybe a challenge for artists or illustrators is like knowing where to pull content from. their images. Like that can be also, some people get stuck in a groove of getting a brief and then waiting to be told what to draw. And I thought that this as a prompt, like illustrating an old journal that you found created so much rich imagery. And honestly, some of the images in here, I feel like I'd seen a couple maybe online before, but there's some of my favorite things that you've made.
49:33Oh, that means so much to me. It's very new, feels like very different territory to me. So I'm unsure of it. Yeah. Really? Okay. It feels right to me. It feels like your work, but it does feel, they do feel like paintings in a, in a really great way. I, so I love that. I feel like it's a great prompt for illustrators of go mine your past stuff and find just your life. How did you, I have two questions here. One is, how did you, what were you pulling from? I think you had some photos, but what were you, how were you getting this imagery? Because it feels dreamy in a way, but it also feels still life.
50:19So I imagined it was kind of maybe a mixture of both, but where did these, where did all this reference come from? it's totally both it's a lot of imagined stuff and a lot of remembered stuff and a lot of photo reference um like the picture on the cover of the book is totally imagined okay except i i maybe drew a real beer bottle because i wanted to like see where the I wanted to see like how light like goes through a green bottle. Yeah. Um, but other than that, um, and I think I took a picture of my sneakers, but other than that, it's imagined, but, but a lot of the imagery in the book is from photos.
51:07There's a lot of interesting and funny stories about photo reference. Like the, um, this is a good story. This is an interesting one. Cause it's sort of about the, what I was talking about before about the sort of things you get up to when you're 25 and the kind of artist you are when you're 25 versus that kind of artist you are when you're 48. I have in this box of photos, I have this big box of photos and it's like got hundreds of pictures in it. And then they just end in like, you know, 2002, no more photos. It's all digital. And I, in that box is like eight or 10 portraits that I took with film camera and they're just, um, people staring straight expressionless from the shoulders up and they're not very good.
51:58They're like blurry. I was never a very good photographer. I could never really figure out film photography, but because I'm of a certain age and from a certain era, I had to learn to do it. You know, I went to, I was in an art school. Um, so I took all these photos of people I knew and came in contact with in the, uh, cause I wanted to do a series of portraits of them. And I, so I wanted these just sort of deadpan straight on photo portraits to use for reference. And I never did them like so many other things that I had ideas about when I was 25. So many other things that I was like, um, maybe I'll do this.
52:38Maybe I'll do this. What about this. So I never painted a single photo or single painting from those photos and I kept them in a box, but then I dug them out and I used them to make portraits for this book 20 something years later, which I think is kind of neat. Um, and so a lot of them, you know, there's like a picture, um, of me wrestling, wrestling with someone on a futon in it, which is this guy who came to visit who like, you know, drunkenly like knocked me on a futon and we wrestled. But I painted that from a photo I had of me wrestling on a futon with another person. I like happened to have a picture of me wrestling on a futon.
53:19So something I was apparently doing a lot when I was 25. Yeah. And like, there's a, there's a bar in this book called My Father's Place. It's like a beloved dive bar in Portland. And in this book, I go to it for the first time, but I will go to it many times after. And so I wanted to find an image of it, the exterior of it at night in order to, um, paint it for the book. I wanted like the facade at night. So I was Googling, trying to find that too lazy to drive into Portland from the suburbs where I live to take that picture. And so I only found two pictures of it. And one of them was on MapQuest, which like, I guess you still know it existed.
54:05It's still there. And there was this MapQuest picture that someone, cause you could like upload your own pictures onto MapQuest. And it was a picture of my husband's bandmate, Chris Funk, like standing outside of my father's place, smoking a cigarette. Is it the one that you're, that you paint in it? Yeah. Yeah, except he's not. Is it like a take on that? No, I mean, I used that and the only other photo I found online, and I sort of combined the two. And then I put a person in that photo who's like a person who I guess is supposed to be homeless, and he's carrying like a bunch of bags and stuff.
54:44And that actually is from a photo I took in San Francisco, like years before I moved to Portland. So I had this photo of this person walking down the street in San Francisco, carrying so many things, like carrying so many bags and just so laden with stuff. And I think something about like the shape of this person was interesting to me. And I had actually done a bunch of drawings and paintings of the same using the same photo as reference over the course of like 25 years. And then I used it once again to be the foreground of that photo of that bar. So it's kind of a lot of like collaging photos, imagining using my box of photos, but also lots of Google image search always.
55:25Yeah, that's amazing because it makes me realize that part of what potentially feels dreamy about the book is how dreamy the way that these references came together are. Like you saying that, it's like you describing a dream of I'm wrestling my roommate, but it's not my roommate. And it's, you know, I'm in front of this place, but it's not that place. And there's a different guy. Like, I just feel like for some reason my husband's bandmate is there smoking a cigarette. Exactly. Where did he come from? Yes. And that's what it feels like. It has a, there's an interesting, like, um, even the thing that you were saying about the, uh, the portraits that are like straight on, there's just a, there's a very dreamlike quality that feels also like a memory.
56:13It feels like what it feels like probably to read those things. Um, which yeah, it's just really fascinating. The last thing I wanted to ask you was, for me, when I started illustration, got out of school in 2008 versus now, I've kind of gone through different cycles of when I first started, I was super interested in illustration and interested in the scene that I felt like I wanted to be part of and all that kind of thing. And then, you know, it ebbs and flows that passion. I went back into a really, really passionate phase recently. But what I love about illustration now is so different to what I loved about it then.
57:03And I wondered if you could relate to that or if it's just, is it consistent? Like, does making visual art mean the same thing to you now as it did then or is it changed? I think a lot of the threads of it are lifelong. Like I think the thing that drew me to illustration when I was a little kid, like reading the Chronicles of Narnia and seeing Pauline Bain's illustrations and also flipping through the New Yorker and just looking at the art. Like those, those threads run through my whole life. And that, the thing that drew me to that art still draws me to it today and draws me to the work of other illustrators and also to make illustration.
57:51I have like a way more complicated relationship with it now after working in this biz for decades because I have a lot of like, you know, I'm kind of jaded and tired of it. But I also still totally love it and feel privileged to be able to, you know, figure out how to make a living doing it. That always feels kind of like a wild miracle to me. But I think like you, I kind of go in and out with it. I become very reactionary about it sometimes, like especially if I'm like knee deep in a book, I'm tired of working on it, or I've gotten a bunch of nitpicky notes from someone. And I will be like, I hate this job.
58:35And what I want to do is be a painter. I want to be a painter and like make paintings and show them in galleries. Or as often lately, I'm like, what I want to do is make quilts, like pictorial, pictorial giant quilts and do, I don't know what people do with them, but whatever. people do it that want to do that. And so, so it's like, I'm always reacting to it. It's such a deep, complicated relationship, but I love it. Um, and, and most of the time, the way I feel about it feels very similar to the way I felt about it when I was a kid for sort of noticing it in my world, which is like, I see bad illustration and I'm like, I see good illustration.
59:17I'm like, oh my God, who did that? You know, like I'm just, I haven't, I am always looking for it around me and my world. And I'm always grateful for it when I find it in places where it's, you know, making the world a better place, making art better. I lied to you. And I said, that was my last question. I have just one more. That's it, Andy. I'm done. I'm out. Please just one more. As you're saying that I'm thinking like, of the images in the book. I don't, I'm, I'm assuming you have some that you like more than others, just cause that's how I am at least of your favorites or of your favorite.
1:00:02What is it that you like about it? Or what is it that's meaningful to you? I, the one that I'm just coming that comes to mind. I don't know if it's one of the ones you like, but is the nighttime one where it's you guys going on time, uh, on top of the building, um, and two of the people are smoking and there's just, I'm not going to fill in your words here, but I just wonder what, what makes it, uh, an image feel successful to you. Well, I feel like with illustration, I think that my, my guiding principle has always been like good illustration should stand on its own. So it should be doing something, or my favorite illustration typically can stand on its own, out of context.
1:00:51You could see it somewhere and get something out of it. They would have an interesting narrative quality, but it would also be a good piece of art, you know? And so I think all of the paintings in this book, I, um, I tried to approach from that angle, trying to make a piece of art that could hang on a wall that would look like it was meant to hang on a wall and also be in a book. And there's a few, I think that don't kind of hit that nail on the head. Like there's like a picture of a TV and a VCR with a bottle of Concha y Toro on the top. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if that stands on its own.
1:01:28That feels like, but the one you're mentioning is that's special. That's actually speaking of source imagery. So I, in the end of the book, it ends with us climbing on top of this building. And my friend Nathan makes this video of us, of Colin and I climbing up this wild high scaffolding. And, um, and so after I was almost done with the book and I had that illustration to do still, and I was like, please, can you find that video to my poor friend, Nathan, my poor busy friend who had to dig through like a bunch of ancient hard drives and find it for me. And he did. And it was like really moving to me to see this sort of weird, dreamy, grainy video.
1:02:14And so that's actually a, uh, that's a still from the video he sent of Colin and I climbing this ladder. And so I, I don't know, I think maybe that piece, I love how I love that. It's so blue. I love that blue in it. And I love that it's really graphic. And I think that it's got a kind of intriguing composition and everybody who sees it and doesn't know what it is, thinks it's something different. A lot of people think it's like a billboard, um, that we're climbing up and it doesn't really matter. But I think there is something also emotionally charged in it because when I watched that video, I was so moved.
1:02:50I hadn't seen myself and this person who would become my husband at 20 odd years ago in so long. And so I think that that piece means a lot for a bunch of reasons. And then my favorite piece in the book is actually the wrestling on the futon one weirdly, which was, I love that one too. Thanks. It was the very first one I made. And I was like, this is what I want the whole book to look like, which is like that thing where you're just messing around and you make something that you really love. And then you're like, now I just have to duplicate this exact vibe 30 more times. I just have to be like loose and cool and like nail it 30 more times.
1:03:33And so like, of course it's the first, the first painting in the book that I was like, that's the one. That's the best one. And it still feels like the best one to me. As I got farther into the book, I really got really deep into these paintings. Like sometimes I feel like I didn't quite know where to stop and to keep them loose, but I'm still really proud of them as a collection of work. But I think the first one where you're so excited about the idea and you're finally sitting down to make it happen with not a lot of expectation is like, oh, chef's kiss.
1:04:20Okay. I'm back. Thank you, Carson, again, for being on the show and just for being such an inspiration over the years. I know so many illustrators are just mega fans of your work. And you just always do such interesting projects and make such interesting decisions. And it inspires me to stay more in touch with my creative side, because my practical strategic side can get out of control and kind of wreck that side of me. I'm back. I told you I would be with the creative call to adventure. It's called what's in your metaphorical pockets. And the idea is, I don't remember where I heard this, but it was somebody telling a story about, who was it?
1:05:08Oh, I think it was Ethan Hawke. This sounds like an Ethan Hawke thing even. And I think it's Stanislavski. Never tried to say that word before. And I just really fell on my face. Stanis... Stanis... I don't know. We're going to leave it in though because it's just embarrassing for me. Stan, I can't remember how. I've never said that word. Anyway, it's a school of acting, I'm told. And he said that he had read this and he was doing the stuff they suggest and he was in Dead Poets Society and he's got the right stuff in his pockets. And I'm just assuming what this means is that you've got the stuff in your pockets that the character would have in their pockets.
1:05:54And I've heard this too from other actors talking about like, think the thoughts that your character would think and it will come across in your expression and in your presence when you're on stage or you're in front of the camera, that something will translate subconsciously there even in just to the faces that you're making. And I've often in this show made comparisons between acting and illustration. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody else Make that comparison. It might not be on the surface obvious to anybody else, but to me, you're illuminating a text most of the time or illuminating a message or a purpose, and you're making it come to life with emotion and visuals and skin and bones to the thing so that you can see this thing that's trying to be communicated.
1:06:44And so I see, and also illustrators are the last people in the equation often to get brought onto a project and make it come to life. And so I see a lot of parallels there. And one of the things that Carson said that reminded me of that, I want to say Stanislavski. Why? I can say it in my head, but I can't say it in real life. I need to go do some heavy research and some soul searching about not practicing that off mic. Like, okay, anyway, one of the things that Carson said was when she was making that image we talk about last, which is her and her friends climbing onto the roof at night, that that was charged for her with all this emotion that she felt from watching the video of that night.
1:07:40and I just thought it's really interesting. Who knows? I don't know if I was picking up on that emotion, but that was such a striking image to me and it had tone and it had emotion. And it felt even nostalgic. It didn't feel of the moment. And now that I think about it, it feels almost serious in a way that's like looking back at a time that's gone. And I wonder, I'm just curious, like, let's get a little bit weird. We're freaking artists for God's sakes. Let's get a little bit weird and try to make something with our metaphorical pockets, aka our brain. So when I go into making the artwork for any time I think about any of the illustration I've done, especially for books, I can remember the music I was listening to or the podcasts or the audiobooks, and they're really linked in my mind.
1:08:34And when I made Invisible Things. The second half of making that book, the artwork for it, was me listening to the audiobook of Bittersweet by Susan Cain, who ended up being a guest on the show. It's one of the most profound experiences that I've had as a person, let alone with a book. And I am not, I don't think, overstating that because it put me into a state that I'd never experienced before. And I can't even tell you exactly why other than it just felt like someone was articulating my thoughts that I didn't even know that I had in a way that I could never articulate. And it's a great book.
1:09:14I highly recommend it too. But when I look at those images, they feel more weighty because of what I was consuming at the time of making them. And so my prompt to you, it's not a super practical one. It's just to try to get into the emotional state that you are trying to produce in the image that you're making or the song that you're making. You know, try to, it reminds me of Sir Ian McKellen. Another actor said, you know, acting isn't about pretending to feel an emotion. It's about feeling an emotion on command. And I just think that that's a powerful tool that an artist has of how can you find, how can you prime that emotion with music or videos or memories?
1:10:06How can you get into that state before you make a picture? Because who knows, some of that might translate. And if it doesn't translate directly into the image, it might translate into how you feel about it. And that might translate into you doing whatever it takes to get it out there in the world. it might just be more meaningful to you. And hey, that matters. So do it. Stanislavski. It's something like that. And I'm going to go learn how to say it properly now. And next time I say it on the podcast, I'm going to be a master. It's just a word I've never said before. And I hope you appreciate that I didn't edit myself out.
1:10:46Because you can all laugh at me now. All right. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Carson. really really loved having this chat with you hope to have you on the show again sometime bye
1:11:22Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice. But that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same where those kinds of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps.
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1:13:09This has been another episode of Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little, week in and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AJ Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator, and I make this show not because I have it all figured out, but because as a squishy, creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes.
1:13:51So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening. And until we speak again, stay pepped up.
1:14:55Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening.
1:15:34but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you wanna figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our creative career path hand booklet and the whole process is in there and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up y 'all.
From the publisher
Do you have a box of treasured momentos, a drawer of unfinished artwork or a notebook of ideas you never quite started and definitely didn't finish?
Author and illustrator Carson Ellis tells us how she uncovered a forgotten journal from her 20s and how it informed an entire series of work, with a little help along the way from some other past projects.
This interview is creative inspiration for how to tell stories using pictures, capture nostalgia and perhaps even create art today as a time capsule for the future.
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SHOW NOTES:
Co-Writing / Editing: Sophie Miller sophiemiller.co
Audio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones pendingbeautiful.co
Soundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY? whywithaquestionmark.com
https://www.carsonellis.com/
https://www.chroniclebooks.com/products/one-week-in-january
Picture book mentions: What is Love, Du is Tak and Wildwood
TV show mentions: Mad Men
Band: https://www.decemberists.com/
Author Kazoo Ishiguro https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/14137/kazuo-ishiguro/
Julian Glander https://glander.co/
Past episode with Carson Ellis and Mac Barnett: https://creativepeptalk.com/355
SPONSORS:
Immaterial: 5,000 Years of Art, One Material at a Time a podcast by The Met -
Each episode examines a material of art, like clay... stone... trash... and what they can reveal about history and humanity. You’ll get a sense of the meaningfulness of these materials, and see them in a whole new way.
Check out Immaterial here: https://bio.to/ImmaterialPodcast!PScreativepeptalk
Riverside - The easiest way for you and your team to record, edit and share professional grade Videos and Podcasts, from anywhere in the world.
https://creators.riverside.fm/creativepeptalk
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