472 - The Tug-Of-War Between Making Your Art And Sharing It With The World, With Gallant

27:51And, uh, most of the time it was in the negative. So I was like, okay, I'm going to use my$3 and 17 cents. I'm going to get an Oreo McFlurry. I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to think about it. I think I was going to take the subway up to like the end of somewhere in the end of Brooklyn where I could get on like a ferry, you know, to Staten Island. I don't know if it's the end of Brooklyn to do that, but I was just going to go get some space. And then I take the McFlurry and I go into the subway and it was like a cosmic wind had all of a sudden come out of nowhere and gathered all of the dirt and the dust from the corners and like the cigarette ash from like the corners of the subway.

28:35And it just in a swirl, like a magical Disney like swirl. It just went and deposited all the dust into my Oreo McFlurry. And I basically snapped. I mean, I was I was like, dude, I was like, I can't take it. Like, this is the industry is not for me. I got to get out of the city. And my friend at the time, luckily, who was who was a music producer, was going through similar feelings of just being a little bit disconnected and just disillusioned. And we just decided we were like, hey, we should just move to L.A. We should just stop messing around with this this company that we were working with at the at the time.

29:15And let's just like make our own let's just make a project. And and literally like, you know, that week we were looking at spots to go temporarily in L.A., which shout out to him. I mean, he basically just let me I don't I think he was able to get make a little bit of money at the time. So he was just kind of down to to like have me tag along, you know, and which is amazing. I mean, I yeah, I owe a lot to him. And we were just writing these songs and for no audience, really, it was just for me. It was just me getting things off my chest. We were listening to a lot of Sufjan records. I remember there was this one period of time where I was just, I was so, I was like despondent, you know, basically.

29:57And I was on the couch and it was just Sufjan dress looks nice on you playing and repeat. And then my friend was like making this like ambient remix of the song too. And it was just like hours and hours of that just on repeat. And then we ended up just saying, oh, we're going to make like a project. And we had the windows open and we like had the wind come in and, and we were like getting excited. it we're like oh yeah like why don't we like instead of like me being real close to the mic i'll just be really far away and then i'll just do like a whale sound and then it'll be like but then we'll echo we'll like echo it out and make it like verby and then it will be like this other and you know we just got started getting really like yeah like uh joyful about it And, um, and I had never really felt that, uh, like that pull of the thing that I love that much since I was in middle school making songs that nobody, nobody liked.

30:54And so I was just like this, like whatever this feeling is, is what I want to chase. Like nobody's telling me what I have to listen to. Nobody's telling me what I have to be inspired by. I don't even know. The concept of marketing was evaporated from my brain at that point. I'm like, I don't even know what marketing is. I don't know what, and it doesn't, and it, yeah, you know, and so, and, and that was a project that was like my very first EP that I called, I called Zebra, and I just like put it together myself. And then I uploaded it on the internet. And immediately after I uploaded it, it just started applying to Starbucks.

31:32Cause I'm like, I can't, I can't be borrowing money from my friends, like for the rest, for the end of time, like this is ridiculous. So, uh, and then all of a sudden, you know, it was like a very slow and steady thing of like one message being like, oh, this is really cool on the internet. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then another message being like, oh, this is awesome. Cause it's combining this thing. And, and it, and I was really into this artist called how to dress well at the time too. And it was like, oh, this, it was like how to dress well. And it's like, and, and then people were like, oh, this is like shoegaze R &B.

32:05And then I was like, oh yeah, like you understand me? Like you get what I'm, it was such a surprising feeling. But there was no going back ever. Once I felt that feeling of validation, which is a, that's a weird way to describe it too. Cause I feel like that has such a weird connotation, but I just felt like I didn't have to change myself. I felt like I my uniqueness and my specificity was a superpower in that moment. And to like betray that or to like dim it would be just so nonsensical and antithetical to being able to make anything in the future that I could look back on and be really proud of.

32:48And so, man, talk about long winded ways of coming back to answer your question. Dude, it's a great story, man. I'm all in.

33:20one of the reasons i really like the hero's journey as a framework especially for creativity There's kind of two things going on there. I really think about it like a creative hero's journey is there's home and then there's a way. So there's these two different places. Home is really who you are. But it's also kind of like what you know you are right now. So a way is going away from yourself to see what you might become. But it's also leaving your comfort zone and who you know you are. And so it's a dangerous game and you always kind of end up, I think if you're doing a creative thing, right, you're going to always end up in places where you're like, I shouldn't be here.

34:05This is not me. And that's what I like about it is that it has this requirement of openness, which is required, because you've got to mess up, you've got to push the limit. That's how you become something different. And that's also you. And so I'm just thinking about like this early experience of kind of moving away from yourself, moving away from listening to other people, kind of taking on board what they want you to be. And then coming back to yourself, what do you think the elixir is that you got from that journey? I mean, it sounds like it's something tied to this ability to listen to your, yourself, but what is it there?

34:56Do you think it, is that kind of it? Yeah, I think, I definitely think it's because, because even that, that whole experience that I just described and I love, I love your, your emphasis on the hero's journey, by the way, I feel like that's such a, that's such a grounding just framework to, to view everything in because it's also. implying, I feel like that the story is never like the story is still continuing, you know? So you, your, your story only ends when you decide that you're going to give up or that you're going to stop and totally, and that's okay too. But, but I just love the fact that it's something that's constantly being written.

35:37Um, but yeah, I do think that even to just go back to that one point of me, like discovering that I could make something just by listening to my inner taste and just by, and even that flow state. I mean, I, I was so, I've never, I had never felt that level of even just talking about it. It really makes me happy and like excited. You know, it's like, it's like, I'm playing with Legos. It's just like, ah, like it's, and you don't, you don't get that feeling that much as an adult. So it's like, why wouldn't you want to just use that as the, as the barometer of where you're always trying to kind of get close to, you know, you're always trying to get in that gravitational pull of that feeling.

36:17And so I do think that when I was starting to like gain a lot of traction with that first EP and then all of a sudden I, you know, that's all that I do. And then I'm in that world and then signing to my friend's label at the time, which was great because my friend really understood me and then making my first album. And, but then when it's, when that first album got kind of picked up by a major label and then it was, and then I'm in that world of major label, just mania, I'm going to call it that. Um, uh, you know, which can be, you know, it's, it's just, it's just a lot all the time. Um, and a whirlwind.

36:57And I think that that feeling of like wanting to always stay close to that, that inner taste. I think, I do think for some people, it kind of, I don't even know the right way to describe it. Like, like when, when somebody would say, Oh, what about recording this song, for example? And then it's like, all of a sudden the calculus comes and it's all these numbers in front of your face. And you're like, if I do this, this could happen. But then what about this other thing? And then could it really happen? Do they really know? But it's so far away from what I have. And then you say something like, like, no.

37:32And then they look at you like you have like, you know, tentacles and like five heads. And, and sometimes I feel like that, that willingness and that, that just desire to stay as close to your own inner taste as possible. possible, not because you want to shut everything else down and not because you want to close yourself off or because you don't want to collaborate, but just because you want to get close to that joyful feeling of like being a kid who loves music, but you love music for this set of reasons. And you love music, these set, the set of sounds that really speaks to you is really hard to communicate.

38:11And so I guess I haven't found like any, any real elixir, you know, there's always going to be that battle. And even now, I mean, I'm in a completely different, uh, battle I would say, because, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll probably talk about that later, but I, uh, I feel like at least if it's not an elixir, it's like, at least you have some sort of core, you know, you have some sort of center and I, and I, and like you said, I do think that there's a lot of value in stepping outside of yourself sometimes. And like, I love like exploring different pockets and different like sounds that I wouldn't normally do.

38:56I mean, after I finished my first album, I did my, my entire second album, basically as a way to experiment with different sounds and work with like songwriters that I even just working with songwriters in general was, was always really difficult for me because it's hard to find somebody who's really just in your same headspace and can help you craft something that still feels like you, you know, but, um, but I think even, even just knowing that I had that core of, all right, this is what is my inner taste. I'm going to always stick with my uniqueness, not just as a concept, but as a feeling, as a feeling of this makes me excited.

39:36This makes me happy. If it's something that's completely outside of myself and sometimes, and it just still makes me happy, then cool. I discovered a new corner of something that's still very close to me. Um, but I would just always try to keep it at least, I don't even want to give like a percentage. It's more like a gut feeling. It's like, here's a new person. Here's like a new sound. Here's a, uh, a different producer, but, and how are you feeling? And it's like, if your gut feeling is, this is just not right. and it's just too far and it just isn't right, then it's not right. But if the feeling is, this is different, but it could be interesting.

40:14Maybe we could do this. Maybe I could do this. And then you can start getting into a different version of the flow again, where you're like, oh yeah, this is different, but you can subvert it with this thing. And then you can add this bell and then you could pour some of this milk on top. And then you could put some cilantro over there. You know, if there's like a way to still be in that, that joyful process while doing something new or while challenging yourself, at least for me, I've found that that is still a positive thing. And that means that you're not completely lost in space yet. Yeah.

40:52But I'm still looking for the elixir. I wish I could find the elixir that takes away that. Takes away what? Just the overall feeling of, of, uh, the struggle. Yeah. You know, just the struggle of, of trying to balance those two worlds constantly of like, am I locked into myself too much? Am I experimenting enough? Am I experimenting too much? Is this, am I still, am I losing myself yet? Am I, am I on earth one? Am I on earth 59.76? Like it's, you know, it's a constant, constant tug of war. I totally agree. And I don't claim to have any, like, I don't think that there is an answer. I don't have control over it in my own path.

41:40It's a constant tug of war. Like it is very difficult. but you know how i think about it right now or how i'm it's kind of my hypothesis of how to work it out is something you said earlier was this idea of getting into the state of i don't even know what marketing is and i think the thing that i feel like is really juicy about that is the tension for me comes from when I'm trying to do the irrational creativity, gut level, prelingual, just gut that thing, taste thing, visceral thing. When I'm trying to do that at the same exact time that I'm trying to do the rational, logical, marketing, smart next thing, when I'm trying to do both of those, I'm at war with myself.

42:35And if I can find that way of getting into the place where I'm like, I don't even remember marketing and get like, I don't even know what that is. I was getting in that zone. But then I think I really, and I feel like the people that can do that and then, and, and really own it. And then, then go the other way when they need to go. Okay. Now I've made the album. Okay. Now it's time to go to the other side. And I, and like we said, I said that episode you brought up, tie yourself to the ship so you don't get taken by the sirens because the business world is going to show these calculations in front of you and everything's going to be, oh, is that the smart decision?

43:15And that's what I love about the idea of taste is that the reason I'm so attracted to that idea is because I think that the decision-making process on how to make something that's resonant is so complicated. It's so nuanced. It's so, uh, in, it has so many, um, factors like timeless factors and timely factors, things that are, why does this sound good when it did like, dude, like, you know, two or three years ago, we were listening to TLC all the time. And I was like, there's something about this record that is feels so good. And then if I listened to that five years prior, I would have been like, waterfalls?

43:59No. So there's something, it doesn't make sense. It's not something you can describe fully. And part of it, it's fun to try to, but I think that's why that logical business thing of like, is this the smart decision or what's your rationale behind why it needs to be this way. I feel like that's where you kind of get into trouble. And so, but I do think you're describing like, you have to be able, and that's why I always think of it as a mind game. It's a mind game with yourself of how do you access the part of yourself that you need fully when it's writing time? Because that's so different than editing time or promoting time like right and you're capable of all everyone's capable of all these different phases and you know states um but it's really hard that's the sport i think you know and i feel like and correct me if i'm wrong but i feel like the challenge which is even what i was what i was going to get out when i'm saying i'm sure we'll we'll talk about it later, but the challenge in that promotional phase or that like social media phase or that like, you know, even if you don't know what marketing is like that marketing phase of like trying to, trying to match what you've done with the group of people who are going to appreciate it the most.

45:34that I feel like is a whole separate XO universe of, uh, it's a whole other game. It's a whole other game. Yeah. Because, you know, and, and, uh, and in another episode, you really touched on this really well. I think it was the episode that I mentioned way, you know, way back when I first reached out to you about episode 365 about social media platforms and, um, you know, how like some people are more, uh, fluent in Twitter. Some people are more fluent in Instagram. Some people aren't fluent in any of those. So then it's just thinking about Spotify as a, as a social media platform. Yeah. And, uh, and I was, I was just, I remember back then I was just thinking about that because it's another balancing act of how do you, how do I stay true to myself and find even just the tiniest glimmer of that kid playing with Legos when you're trying to craft a narrative and a story that has nothing to do with the art necessarily that you made.

46:46Sometimes it can, I guess, but for the most part has more to do with trying to get your message seen by as many people as possible. And I feel like that's such an innately contradictory thing to try to, especially when you have your full focus on it for a period of time, if you finished the thing and now you're fully ensconced in like that, that business angle of everything. It's like, how do you not lose yourself in that? And then how do you get to a point where you feel like you can create consistently and joyfully, even if there's like a tear that comes from your eye as your experience of experiencing a little passing glimmer of joy while you're making a reel for Instagram or something.

47:31Yeah. Um, like how do you, how do you do that in a way that, uh, that just gets you close to that, to that feeling of flow and yeah, dude. Yeah. Go on. Oh no, please, please. I was just, dude, I love, this is such a good, uh, conversation and it's so, yeah, it's something I think about all the time. And I, when you first reached out about that episode, I was so stoked because, you know, I, I don't, I'm not a musician. I know the music game is just a crazy thing that to wrap your head around it is impossible. So I don't claim to know that, but I got asked a question by a musician and I was just thinking about just one of the principles that I think about, which is, you know, there's kind of three phases to the way that someone becomes a true fan.

48:24And the first one is discovery. And so you want to go where people are, you want to, if you want to put your effort into being discovered, where people discover the kind of stuff that you want to go to that scene. Right. And I kept seeing like musicians become comedians on Tik TOK and then try to get them over to their Spotify page. And I just felt like it's literally like giving away samples of your food from the food court, but you're in JCPenney. And you're like, come over here. Like, we don't want, we're not hungry. We're looking for pants. Like, no. And so it's just, I feel like to me. And then the other thing is all the musicians hate Spotify in some ways.

49:07We love when you put them on the playlist and stuff. But, you know, it's a complicated relationship, right? And I can say that because I don't have music, so I can say that. But then why at the same time are we so precious about it like it's this pristine discography when really it's like social media in a way? And you can have your vinyl like these are my albums, but then on Spotify being like creative and exploratory and collaborative and all that kind of stuff. So anyway, that was the context of that. But the only thing I would say is it reminds me of something that there's two things. One was the thing when I try to go into promotion mode, the fear that creates the tension of why I can't leave the creative flow zone is because as I get afraid that if I let go of my creative flow, that I'm not going to be able to do it again.

50:15I'm not going to be able to, that's where that other side comes in and distracts me and says, well, you haven't, you know, written a story in five months. Cause all you've been doing is talking about the old stuff and you know, like, Oh, I need to get thinking about the next project. Cause I need to make it even better than this one. Like all of these, those are all the things that break you out of accepting that you're in a different phase and then owning that phase and then forget what music is. Now you only know what marketing is. That's too far. But that kind of, I think that I get in that thing of this fear of like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do it again or what, you know, all of that stuff.

50:56And so I do think like recognizing, oh, I'm trying to be two things at once, which are impossible. And I, instead of saying that, instead of fearing that I can't access that myself, that part of myself again, I can say, no, I'm actually taking a break from that. That's a great thing. Like I'm taking a rest from that because I'm doing this other thing. And Cal Newport, um, I, I heard him talking about how there's a lot of types of work that people associate with flow, where if you look at the brain, it's not flow. So creativity, that, that stuff is the flow. But I think, you know, this idea of like, you're playing with Lego, I think the music side of it is it's like you're just playing with a huge bucket of Lego.

51:42And now that's just exploratory. And then there's the puzzle, the set. And it's like now it's strategic. Now it's just like, okay, that's where we're trying to go. And that's the exploratory versus strategic are completely opposite of exploratory creativity is I'm going to start without knowing where it's going. And then strategic is I'm going to start with an end in mind and figure out how to work my way over there. And I think that those two brain states, you can't have them at the same time. And that's where that fear and that attachment that it throws you off. But I'm saying it like I know how to do it.

52:20I get it sometimes, but often not. It's very, but it's good to like recognize like, oh, I'm not marketing this book because I'm afraid about the next book that I haven't even written yet. instead of being like, no man, it's break time from that. That's the thing. And you're good at this. You know how to go with, you've done that. You know how to get in that flow state and get excited about new sounds and like all that kind of stuff. Anyway, now I'm, now I'm, you know, ranting and, uh, no, I feel like that's such a, that's, it's so true. Cause I, cause in some ways I feel like it is the, like that exploratory phase is very, you know, it's like you're, you're just you're crossing a bridge and you're imagining the ending of it and like switching it up in real time it's like you're in like some vr game and you're just like building the world around you yeah and it's not even like that's better or worse or it's it's just so different so vastly different than somebody handing you a bomb that's about to explode and saying please can you disarm this, you know?

53:26And, uh, and the, the levels of anxiety are, are completely different with, with each, with each phase. So you're right. I mean, you can't to be, to have a bomb strapped to your chest that you're trying to disarm while you're also trying to build a world around you in VR so that you don't fall to your death in the bridge that you've built with your mind. I mean, that's so it's, yeah, it's, it's just, it's too much brain power. I mean, it is I just think your consciousness can't actually be in those places at the same time. And so it's like they talk about how multitasking doesn't really exist.

53:59You're actually just going back and forth. And that is expending all this other energy because it's really hard. That hard work stuff we're talking about, they say it takes you 15 minutes to get into that. And then every time you leave it, it takes another 15 minutes. And that's one of the reasons why I can find myself resisting that work is because when I sit down to do it, 10 minutes in, I'm like, this sucks. And then, you know, and then, but 30 minutes in, I'm like, okay, I'm in a groove. Like, I'm like, I'm doing this. But yeah, I think that's exactly, and I love what you said about, it's not that one, I do really think it's not that one is better than the other.

54:40Like, I don't think that. And I, my example always, I go back to is the, the curb your enthusiasm is just, I think the brilliance of it is it, they have a, the plot, which is the arc. That's the puzzle. That's a three part puzzle. That's a strategic creativity. And then they improv as they do it, which is, that's the exploratory. So they figured out a way to kind of not do them at the same time, you know? um so yeah i don't i think it's i think to me that is like that's a huge part of the why creativity the sport of it is a mind game it's like how do you master your own mind and and tell it where to go when you need it to go there and yeah it's it's tricky as hell it's it's so that i love that curb your enthusiasm example because i that almost makes me think is Is there a way and not even not even to put you on the spot with it, but is there a way do you feel when you're in the zone of, OK, now it's time for me to just get this out to as many people who are going to appreciate, you know, this body of work right now?

55:54Is there is there a way that that fits into the framework of like a larger creative vision? Is there a way that you can market something or like try to figure out like a new social platform or whatever it is, or trying to be strategic with Spotify or with whatever it is in a way that still fits into this more like childlike wonder aspect of doing something differently than other people have done it? But also it's effective. Yeah. Do you, do you find like you, do you find yourself able to get into a framework where at least it feels exciting and like in creative? I think it has, I think, yes, but I think that it has to be, I have to realize that those states are different.

56:49And so when I go to, if I, and it's the same, that's why I think about it. like it's the creativity of solving a problem rather than inventing a thing. It's like, you're like a puzzle. A puzzle is creative, but it's a different energy. And I think getting familiar with that energy and that the reason I did that episode about why it's so tricky to the puzzle energy is more of that business side. And the only, the real trick, I think, once you figure out how to access that part of you is not living and dying there because it is the logic side and it's the part of you that is so much craftier and it doesn't value the other side because it is this side of you that's like no i know how to make shit happen i know how to like go over there and chart my way and get the award and you know all you do is like play and and so So that part of you, it can be really, I think finding it is hard.

57:52The way I think about it is Chad Abumrad, who was the, one of the creators of Radiolab, he talked about it like gut churn. And to me, I'm like, this is a different type of creativity. It doesn't feel like flow. It feels like wrestling. But when you realize like, but I'm wrestling for fun. like this is a fun it can be fun it's just you're like the gut churn it's like a um yeah it's like anything that you're doing like a like a sport that's has a pain to it but you're like oh but it's it can be like i'm solving a puzzle and so i think that's kind of i don't think it's exclusive But I think learning to love that side is really powerful when you start thinking more strategically about how do I now it's time to get it out there.

58:49I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I start thinking about it. It does. It does. And I feel like. Yeah, that's that's right. Yeah. Yeah, I love even to take it back to the Spotify example with with you bringing up, I think that's probably I think what you're describing is what made that advice that you were giving that musician so salient because you're coming from a place. of applying that mentality to something that when you're just in, when you're, when you're in the industry and when you know how everything works, it's like, not to put words in that musician's mouth specifically, but I could imagine that musician being like, Spotify is not a social media platform.

59:32You can't Spotify, you can't have fun with Spotify in that way. But then because you're just working backwards from that frame of, oh, you know, what, what is the experimental and interesting way of living in that space? But like you said, not living and dying in that space. And then from an outside perspective, this is how I see it. You can, you know, social media is what let's deep, let's break it down to the basic elements of what it is. Like you said, discovery, et cetera. And then applying that to this platform that nobody thinks about as a social media platform works. And I even wonder, I'm like, what else does that same framework apply to?

1:00:16Yeah. And I go ahead. Sorry. Oh, no, I was going to say, just thinking about that, just thinking about that, thinking about the fact that there could be possibilities that are a little bit more endless, you know, is a little exciting. It's like, oh, yeah, what else is what else is at the bottom of the ocean, you know, we're, and we're here, you know, maybe, maybe we don't have to go way out in space to find something new. Maybe, maybe it's digging a little bit deeper in the, in the, the plot of land right here in my backyard, you know? Yeah. And the other, yeah. And I think that the other thing, um, you saying that made me think that thinking the thing that can be fun about the business side, about the marketing side, whatever the puzzle side is that you don't have to be precious and romantic about it because you got your statement.

1:01:09So this is my statement. That's your album. That's your creative side. And you're like, cool, man. Love that. Good job, buddy. You did the art thing. Great. That's, and that's, I mean, dude, if you're an artist, that's your jam. So I'm, I'm only teasing myself here, but that is, cause that's what I get. I get so like this is art like you know if i'm gonna tell a story or do a book or whatever but then um when i go on the other side what can be the fun part is that i can be light with it so i can be like okay why don't the next i could do a whole album of remixes and this is just about it doesn't have to be like my exact taste this can be fun exploratory weird experimental because i've already made the statement, now I can be like, all right, who do I want to work with?

1:02:01What would be weird? What would be fun? What would just get to some of the people that I want to get it to perhaps, or connect with one of these musicians. And then now you're doing what is essentially 10 collaborative posts, but they're just remix singles, you know? And then now you're getting, you're just kind of extending your little network and i think the key is you don't need what you don't need is uh you don't need infinite people to discover the work first of all you know you already have people that love the work and that are going to follow but you just want to get you want to every time you want to throw out your net bring them in and then the second thing is they're going to get trust with your album that's how they're going to go deeper into that and then now they're like in and then then you can start thinking about okay how do i make a career of that and that's like tour and merch and sales and all that but exactly but yeah i think that's that can be the fun part is i don't have to be precious about this when i'm making the the bonus material uh around you know the youtube shorts if i'm making a movie the youtube shorts that are not canon within the movie.

1:03:17They just kind of were playing with it, you know? Um, I think that can be just like fun. That's, that's so true. And not to, uh, not to bring it around. Well, I mean, I was going to say not to bring it back around to my album, but, uh, but the, um, it's relevant because the, the song that you talked about at the beginning, uh, cold star, that literally came from that exact process that you were describing. I feel like, uh like that song was just me and my friend um that i work with work with a lot just he's a he's a producer uh messing around and making like a side project and we're like this is going to be a side project i'm gonna and i was like i'm gonna sing this as if i'm just like a completely different person like i imagine the avatar i'm like this dude with like a bandana and a ponytail and I'm like in my mid forties and I'm like lying on the couch and I'm, and I, and like my, I have one kid and that kid is off like doing whatever because I had them when I was a teenager.

1:04:20And, and now I'm just singing very softly into this microphone. And I don't know, I've never done falsetto. I've never sung like projected my voice. And then we made like a whole project, but then something about this one song was really like, just interesting to me as like a music fan. And then, uh, and then obviously, you know, the business side comes back in and then you accidentally have somebody from your label hear it. And then they're like, all right, well, this has to be on the record, you know, but there, but you're right. There's something so powerful about the lack of pressure because in some way it's, it's almost like, at least for me, when I think about how things line up sometimes, I do feel like when I started writing stuff for this album, there was not a lot of pressure because it was coming right off the back of something that I had just completed and spent and like worked really hard to make.

1:05:18This like EP that I did that was more like very 2000, early 2000s R &B. And I was like, great, I got that off my chest. Like you said, you're like, cool, I did it. And that's what it is. Now I'm going to have fun. Yeah. And I think at that point, then I started this album and I was like, now I'm going to have fun and then make these songs that just kind of are a combination of a different thing or a bunch of different things I like. But then even that, once that's done, then I'm like, cool, now I'm going to have fun, do this collaborative project with these jazz musicians that I really respect and then make that its own separate thing.

1:05:51And then me and my friend are going to go to Alaska and do this other side project. And I'd never been able to fully get into that that state until recently, honestly, just based off of hearing what you what you were saying about that continuing wheel of just like churning flow state without the added pressure of everything having to be the most incredible piece of work that's ever been known to mankind. Yes. And you're right that even to bring it back to what we're talking about with with the business side of things and like social media and whatever. I mean, that framework applies there to like being being so allowing yourself to find the fun and find the flow and find the joy in knowing that it doesn't have to be such a pressure cooker all the time.

1:06:43Like there doesn't have to be, it obviously doesn't have to be perfect. Like nothing is going to be perfect, but even going one step beyond it and being like, not quite like completely nihilistic about it probably to where it's like, it just doesn't matter at all. But it's like the the thing that makes this special is the fact that it's going to feel effortless, but there's going to be some level of effortlessness to it. And there's going to be some some patina of like low stakes, you know, with with this with this work, whether it's a book or, you know, illustration or or or music. and that is really comforting.

1:07:23I've never thought about applying that to the promotional phase of everything also. Yeah. I think that's really powerful. And I think it makes me think, okay, there's another framework kind of hack to your brain. The one you mentioned about the creative side, this is one that I think about all the time. I think the ultimate hack of the creative side is this is a side project. this is there's no pressure on it and it's actually like when i i you know i i don't as i've gotten when i was younger okay like my favorite musicians i constantly wanted them to be like taking it to the next level and at their peak thing like whatever it is like you think your favorite band you're like i want them to go from this to that and and maintain everything i liked from before but then you know i don't know i just had this kind of weird energy about like how i thought about them.

1:08:17I don't feel like that anymore. Like I feel like, and the reason I say that is because one example I think about a lot is Ben Gibbard, Ben Gibbard, when he's making postal service and transatlanticism. And I'm, and I think, you know, if I'm Ben Gibbard and I want peak performance my whole life, then I'm like, I would just be doing side project, death cab, side project death cab and just that is the way you're hacking both sides and i think justin vernon from boniver does this super well that's why he's got a million side projects and then boniver because you can just do this and and so getting into that low pressure i think that's so essential for flow uh and then but then i would say then i'm trying to think of like okay and so what's the hack to get into the other side and i don't i off the top of my head i i don't know but i know it's something but i do know it's something similar to what you said about okay it's almost the opposite version of when you are going into that song and you create this avatar and now you're embodying this guy who just doesn't give a shit and he's like whatever it is and then what's the other avatar that you still can relate to it kind of feels like embodying an archetype where you're like, okay, what's a, what's an archetype of the, that I do relate to that I know is a part of me.

1:09:46Cause you might have like, okay, this is the Han Solo part. This is the part that's, you know, Luke Skywalker, like whatever they are, these are all the different, there's all, there's a million archetypes, but how do you find the one that's like, that's part of you that can achieve this next phase, which is not about, like you said, like that's the thing that's interesting is like flow is like the effortlessness but the gut churn that's like the effort that's like okay now it's time to freaking do justice to this all of the brilliant moments that happen to create this album because now it's got to be now it's time for the guy to get out there and make sure people give it a chance it's a different avatar it's a different archetype.

1:10:32Um, I don't know what that is, but it's, I feel like it's something in that zone and it's cool. Cause you're like, and then another guy can rest the other guy, the creative guy, he's like, he didn't have to do that for a while. And that's actually going to make him better next time around. But that's so true. I love that idea. That's so cool. You're right. I wonder, yeah, I'm going to dive. I feel like I'm going to be awake till like 4am thinking about that. You just got to think about like, maybe there's a musician too, that you're like, you know, that person knew how to launch a thing that person knew how to you know and i love them because you got to find one where you're like i feel a kinship to this archetype you know where it's not it doesn't feel gross you don't want to put on a costume you're like i hate this i don't want to be this person you know exactly uh last thing i want to ask you about was going it's kind Kind of in the vein of this avatar thing, I heard you mention like a mood board for this album and like setting the tone.

1:11:33I also love, I don't know when this was, but the tweet about making music for people that have to step away from the social situation and look in the mirror. Like, that's me, by the way. I got to have a few breaks where I gather my shit. I'm like, okay, man, you're with people. Oh, dude, it's so real. and i and i love like i imagine like hearing your music in that bathroom being like okay like all right connecting back to myself um but i just thought like as i'm like looking at everything you do and the album cover um the the photographer you worked with feels very like uh prodigy chemical brothers like real like so evocative imagery wise um and so i wondered if you could maybe just, uh, that with the avatar thing set some kind of prompt for creators to think about how they get into that priming of what's the tone you're trying to set.

1:12:31How do you get into that? Even with synesthetic, like leaps of not, you know, you're making music, but you're looking at images. Like how do you, can you talk about, about that a little bit? Yeah, of course. I feel like, thanks for bringing that up because I do feel like Every artist is different. Some people prefer to start from chords or lyrics and build the whole thing around that. But I really love the fact that I could build piece by piece just like a visual world or like a stylistic world. And then I kind of know what it smells like. I know how cold it is. I know what it would feel like if I got knocked down, like how much dirt residue would be on my elbow.

1:13:15like all of those little pieces I feel like can feed back into the music in such a really interesting way. And it is a little chicken in the egg. Like I could, I could go through like a bunch of stuff on my hard drive that I like started. And then I could be like, oh, this thing really connects to me. What is this? And then I'll kind of extrapolate from that. I'll be like, this kind of feels like, uh, you know, a screenshot of the movie clock stoppers from 2003 that I got when I got my PlayStation 2. Yeah. Just random, you know? And then I'm like, okay, Clockstoppers is like... Clockstoppers. I love it.

1:13:53Love that reference, dude. Yes. I haven't thought of that movie in so long. I hope there's one listener who's just like, Clockstoppers is my favorite movie. Yes. I cannot believe. I'm all about those references that you're like, nobody else will make this reference. That's how you know there's something there. That's great. Right? Yeah. Oh, man. But I'm like, all right, cool. Like there's something there's something that's just like really cool about the way the color grading of this scene of Clockstoppers. yeah and then like the opening you know just just ambience of like a playstation 2 and then this one snowboard level in this game where they're doing where the music is kind of this like jungly post uh sega dreamcast kind of like liquid jungle that isn't too electronic but they're not using the break beats that everybody knows they're not using the amen break but they're using something else.

1:14:48And if you know, it's like, then all of a sudden you get like into this, this wormhole. And for me, once I start seeing the cyclone form, I'm like, okay, let me go on Pinterest and let me, which is probably my favorite social media platform. I would say, I mean, it's just so I love it. Yeah. Like it never breaks your flow. You're just constantly in it. It's it. I don't know what the, the AI recommendation models are, but it's just so specific. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And and then I'm like, OK, I put together this board, but then I like leave the board and then I'm like, oh, but then I heard this. And then if this thing, if this other thing that feels a little bit more like experimental, like R &B mixed with something that is a more like Appalachia, like 10 guitars layered on top of each other thing, then how does that connect with this jungly thing?

1:15:45Oh, maybe it's not about having this acid like synth on top of that. Maybe that's not part of the ingredient. Maybe it's having like an electric guitar that has like a sustained note that I can end on the seventh. And then that goes with the jungle break. And then that electric guitar moment connects to the acoustic guitar moments. And then, you know, it's like you get into this flow where you're like, oh, and then that is not necessarily like the scene from The Matrix. But it's this other scene from this like, you know, Disney Channel original movie from 2003 that came out and nobody really watched it.

1:16:22And, you know, it's like you keep like it's like you have this this block of marble and then you're just constantly like chiseling away and like softening the edges. And I feel like that process is really fun because you're you're not starting with like, OK, these are the songs that I've written. And like I said, every artist is different. And it's it's really cool if you can just start from just chords and and the songs and then you have the songs and you're just living in the sonic space and you're just like, cool, these songs go together. but for me personally I love like being like cool now I have to now I'm going to change now I'm going to lift the vocal from this song and I'm going to take out all of the elements of this music that doesn't connect with this image and then I'm going to merge together this Appalachian feeling with this like more gospel choir and then and then you know it's it's like then all of a sudden all the songs start getting more and more coagulated into this vision that also matches the series of images on Pinterest that I have, but then I also go back and edit and add to and reshape.

1:17:24And then all of a sudden I feel like it starts coming together and then the world is building. So then when you're like, oh, or at least for me, then when I'm thinking of, oh, what's the title of this? Then I see these images and I have these songs, even if it's not finished yet. And then I'm like, oh, it kind of feels like maybe like a little bit of like a chemical. Maybe there's some biological thing. Maybe there's like x-rays. And then I'm like, oh, x-rays. then that influence that's connected to this lyric and then this could be the image of this and then oh maybe i want to make the album cover kind of feel like there's like some sort of like weird acid overlay like in an x-ray imaging thing oh atomic oh there's a song called atoms on this thing oh that collects connects to the molecular structure you know you start just getting like out of your mind in a way.

1:18:14No, man. It's like, that's the stuff that right there, that right there was one of the best chunks of explaining what it feels like to like be locked into some creative stuff. Like that is exactly the energy. And I'm dude, I'm like, I'm like getting high off that supply. I'm like, Oh, I need to, Oh, I need to go back and do it. Because that's when you're in the thick of it, that's it. And I love what you're saying about it's, you know, you're not starting with the blank page either. Now you're starting with, and I, and I did a similar thing in one of my most important books that I made or one of my favorite one was I, I did the reverse where I'm like, I'm starting with a playlist to make pictures.

1:18:58And so it's this, and it's, there's this, I think it's the nonverbal sensory thing where You're like, I'm getting past logic. I'm getting into trusting the symbolism of this. Like, and you're, and there's, and then you're saying, oh, and what I'm trying to do, it's in between these things. It's like a, there's like an emergent phenomenon that comes from the mood board. We're like, my thing is this thing that's like, not yet, but it's somewhere in this constellation. I love it. And I think that's a really great prompt for creators to take the medium that you're not working in and then create a playlist, create the mood board and start just feeling it out and looking for the patterns, looking in between because it's somewhere in there.

1:19:49And then it's also something that doesn't exist. It's going to emerge from those things. It's really cool. Exactly. Dude, I love it. I love the focus of starting in a platform or starting in a medium that you're not already deep in the sauce with. Because you're right. That's what makes it fun because you're not coming from like a technical perspective. You know, like for you, I'm sure if it was just like a bunch of like different illustrations, you'd be, you know, thinking about like, oh, it's this. They're using this specific like type of pencil. Technique and yeah. Yeah, it's like they're doing these colors.

1:20:28That software and yeah. Exactly. And it's not about it's not necessarily about that. It's just about like, how does it make you feel and what other emotions line up with that? And then you as just an observer with no connection to the medium. What what impression does it leave in your brain when you step away from it for a second? And and that's such a fun place to be, man. I told I'm totally with you on that. dude this was so fun i i gotta let you go but uh i hope we get to do it again i hope we get to chat more and i'm really excited for your album to come out and i can't wait to see uh where that goes and uh if you want a soundboard throw anything over i'd love to love to chat more um if you just need someone to help you get into that other zone for a minute um but uh man absolutely right yeah this was so much fun at the time flew by too i feel like i could i could keep talking for like you know four or five more hours yeah so this is another flow you can get into this flow as you're on the promo cycle hopefully um yeah man yeah all right well uh thanks for thanks for taking the time thank you so much andy it's such a pleasure

1:21:51Yo, I'm back. Huge thanks. Thank you, man, for coming on the show and giving me so much of your time. It was a blast chatting with you. I feel like just taste-wise and creatively that we're just cut from the same cloth in a lot of different ways. And then in a lot of ways, you just blow my mind. So, so talented and excited to spend a lot more time with your album as it comes out in the world. Go check it out. Either if it's out already or if it's not, pre-save it on Spotify. The album is Zinc by Gallant and you can find him on Instagram as well. So Gallant, at So Gallant. And on that CTA, I'll just quickly summarize it.

1:22:37Make a synesthetic leap mood board. Take something that is not your medium and create a collection that has the right feeling and vibe that goes beyond words and kind of get into that zone as you move into this other thing. I've heard these people that temporarily lose access of the left side of their brain, the language side, the logic side, and they talk about all senses bleeding into one. I think there's something there. There's something mystical about how do you tap into something that goes beyond whether it's a picture or a word or a smell or a sight or a sound or whatever. It's beyond that, something visceral.

1:23:18And I think capturing that from something that isn't your medium can help you get out of the tropes and the trends and get into something a little bit more timeless. And I was really inspired by hearing him jam on that. So freaking good. Thank you, man. Hope we get to chat again sometime and go check out his songs. The last song on that album when it comes out. I don't think as the time I'm recording this, it's not out. It might be out by the time I release it. I love the last song, Lucid. I love Lucid Dreaming, but also it's just an epic ending. And Cold Star has such a driving sound. They're all great.

1:24:01It's a great one just to throw on, just to have in your atmosphere. All right, man. Thanks. Hope to talk to you again. Good luck with the album launch.

1:24:16creative pep talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice but that's the thing it only works if it's an actual practice it has to become a habit we make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline, to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps.

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1:26:02This has been another episode of Creative Pep Talk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little, week in and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host AJ Pizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes.

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1:28:32But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them, like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.