475 - The Anatomy of Storytelling and Where to Start, With Brian McDonald

28:56So it's really interesting. So they'll be like, I don't want to do this to my character. That seems cruel or whatever. It's like, no, this is the place for that. You're not being cruel to your character. They're not real. It's fine. Everybody's going to be OK. But yeah, it is funny. It's one of the biggest things. It's avoiding that stuff. People avoid emotions often in stories. It becomes a vulnerable position and people don't want to take that vulnerable position. Like, oh, if I reveal, because you often have to reveal something emotionally about yourself in order to get that into the story that a lot of people want to avoid that.

29:32And so that makes their stories not work as well.

29:52earlier you were talking about i want to see if i understood something right we were talking about um the element of this that isn't art here's how i kind of was thinking about that could you explain the idea of armature real quick before I go into that? Sure. So armature is the word I, I use to describe. So here's the thing. I, when I, when I, um, uh, when I was 21 years old, uh, I worked in creature shops. I did that for a couple of years. This was in the 1980s and, and, uh, and, uh, I worked in creature shops and that was before CGI or anything. And so everything had to be built so similar to kind of like what henson things are kind of yeah kind of okay uh i did work with a guy who did work with them or he was offered a job with them but he didn't take it but it's a similar yeah so um yeah make up special effects kind of stuff but you would make build a creature you know so um uh night of the creeps was the first movie i worked on some people know that some people most people don't i've never watched it uh neither the creeps uh return of the living dead part two which i have also never watched but i did some zombies stuff on that helped out on that anyway but i was kind of the low person i was new and i was kind of so i would watch these people these amazing sculptors some of them went on to work on jurassic park later and stuff like that amazing people and they would do these little maquettes, these little mini sculptures of whatever the creature was, whatever the monster or whatever, so the producers could look at it.

31:34I remember when I got there, they were working on Predator when I first moved there. And so there were all these sculptures of Predator, what he could look like and, you know, and, and beautiful, beautiful sculptures. And I noticed they would make these sort of wire skeletons before they sculpted these things in clay. And, and I asked why, and they said, oh, because clay can't support its own weight. So we make an armature, this skeleton, this it's called armature wire. Actually, we make this armature and it holds everything up. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then after a while, I started thinking about stories in terms of having an armature, have a thing at the center that everything is built around, that is invisible.

32:17Once you're done, nobody sees it. It's one of the most important parts of the sculpture. The whole thing falls apart without it. but it's not a thing people notice and so the armature is the point you're trying to make right it doesn't have to be um obvious it doesn't have to be there on the surface for everybody to see but it has to be there in every decision that you make about the characters that inhabit that story the places where they are the creatures if they're there whatever is there it all has to go back to this central idea to the armature. It has to be built around the armature. It doesn't work.

32:55So the other word for armature would be theme, right? But I don't like to use the word theme because just like the word story, people have different ideas for that. So I like to describe it first as armature and explain it. And then we can use the words interchangeably because we know what we're talking about. But what I find is that when people hear this, that sometimes they misunderstand it. So they'll say, well, the theme of my piece or the armature is revenge or greed, or they'll have a word. It's like, okay, that's not something you can demonstrate through a statement. You can show greed, but you're not saying anything about greed, right?

33:38So, or revenge, right? So a theme can't be revenge. An armature is not revenge. An armature is revenge harms the Avenger. Revenge is sweet. That's something you, those are things you can demonstrate through the story, dramatize, demonstrate, right? Right. Uh, some things are more important than gold or more valuable than gold. That's something you can demonstrate through the characters and the actions and the settings and everything else. Um, so it has to be a sentence that you can prove or disprove. Yeah. And I think of it, you know, I've thought, I think I read your, I think the original version of Invisible Ink probably maybe five years ago, something like that.

34:26Um, so I've kind of been, um, working on that and kind of, uh, adding my own thoughts in terms of how I, uh, how I want to approach stuff. And I kind of tend to think of that armature, the point that you're trying to make the S I've heard you talk about story math. I think about it like act one, act two, act three has to, the act three has to add up to the point. Like that's the point is that it's an equation. The story adds up to, this is the thing that becomes evident from the process. Maybe you could give one of the ones I've heard you do it for a bunch of different examples, but one of my favorites is, um, your take on the armature of Jurassic park.

35:15Does that fresh in your mind? Yeah. Let me think about it for a second. Yeah. Um, Um, what did I say? It's something about, it's something about leaving the past in the past and kind of something about how, like, it's what happens when you try to resurrect the past. Oh, that's a whole thing that's in the land of the dead. Yeah. That's a whole different, that's a, that's a whole different thing. Okay. We can talk about land of the dead, but, uh, that's the last book. We can talk about it, but it will take us down a path. I think we better do that on a different discussion. That's why I heard you, I think you were talking about Jurassic Park as an example of what happens when you try to resurrect the dead.

36:01It was probably in the context of Land of the Dead, which I highly recommend people checking out. I think it's a great framework for thinking about all this stuff. That's my personal favorite book of mine. Oh, really? Yeah. It's amazing. And I think it's a really interesting concept in terms of how to think about – the way I think about that book is it reminds me of The Hero's Journey in that it's like you're going into a world that you can't stay. There has to be a return home. Maybe you could explain what that is. But briefly, because otherwise we're going to completely derail this thing. That's a whole different thing.

36:40essentially, um, I had noticed a pattern of characters journeying into the underworld in stories. Yeah. And it happened a lot. So I was like, why does this happen so much? So I, you know, I did a deep dive into why it happens. Um, and actually it's funny because a lot of people compare the book to Joseph Campbell, which is funny. It's great. It's fine. Yeah. But there's actually a guy that predates him named Otto Rank that wrote a book called The Myth of the Birth of the Hero. And that's actually more for me. So it's like, oh, yeah, okay. People who know Joseph Campbell, so that's what they think.

37:18But there were people doing it before Joseph Campbell, and Otto Rank is one of those people. And he talks about every hero, like he goes through every hero, mythological hero, religious heroes, and he talks about how their births are very similar in all the stories. It's really interesting. So I was looking at

37:42why characters go into the underworld all the time. And what I notice is they usually go there and they gain some kind of wisdom there and they come back. And that is more universal than we know. And the things that you find in the land of the dead and any of those stories are things you can find in life. And when you're in those situations, you are in the land of the dead. Um, you know, in those situations, you mean like when it's life or death, right? Um, no, not necessarily life. Okay. Yeah. What are the examples of that? An example might be, um,

38:25uh, an example might be going through, uh, a horrible time in your life where nothing's working out, right? Because one of the things you find in the land of the dead are suffering souls. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so if you, if you're around, a hospital could be land of the dead. A nursing home could be a land of the dead. Prisons are a land of the dead. Shawshank redemption takes place in the land of the dead. Right. Right. So any place they're suffering of any kind, the threat of death. Sure. That's that's there. But but there's always wisdom to be gained there. If you stay there, you are also to your day.

39:10So you have to gain the wisdom and then leave. Right. And so, in fact, what I what I found and I didn't know this before, there's a word for this journey into the land of the dead, which is called the catabasis. I didn't know there was a word for it, but it happens enough that there was a word. So there's an actual word, the catabasis. And so we all kind of go through a catabasis at maybe several points in our life and you're supposed to learn the lesson of it. otherwise you get stuck in that place. So anyway, that's kind of what the land of the dead is about. And I talk about it in mythology and I talk about it in modern movies and I talk about it in life.

39:52That's what that book is. Yeah. I love that. If you get stuck in that place, like life cannot continue figuratively, literally, metaphorically. I love that. Back to a thread I was going to close was when you were talking about, Now, here's how I heard what you said, because I was right there with you in terms of the part of the story, the part of making stories that isn't art. I often think about art, I call it the cup and the coffee. So the coffee is like the substance. It's the espresso. It's what people are there for. But the cup you put it in needs to match the flavor. Or if you think about it, like wine in a wine glass, right?

40:37Like now there are, there's really interesting things you can do. Like there are lots of us have been in those scenarios where we're drinking wine out of a red solo cup. That's a different, you're doing that for a different reason. And that can either be really sad or it could be really fun. Like, but there's a lot of pieces of how that comes together. So I think about the packaging and the essence of something. and so i was thinking about this in terms of story for me as you said that i started thinking like yeah i think when i approach a story i'm thinking of it there's kind of two pieces there's three pieces to it when you're thinking about the armature which is the skeleton the meat and then i think of like the skin and so yeah the the the maybe for me the art is the idea the truth that that like it's almost like a vision like a thing where like i want to communicate this that the the catching of that is an art it feels like to me and then i think the styling so like the skin also feels like an art now i think it should serve the point but i think it still is an art and then the in between like the meat of that that feels more like mechanics that's more like this leads to that leads to that is that kind of uh i talk about it in the book but yeah in the new version, but I think of it as bones, muscle, skin.

42:06Yes. Right. And so the bones and what's interesting about this for me is when I started thinking about it this way, it helps with collaboration to think of it this way, because here's the thing with collaboration. When you're working on a project with someone and they say maybe so, for instance, you're working out the bones and you say, okay, this is, uh, the guy's got to find out that his business partner is embezzling, right? Okay. That's all you need right now, but there's often someone who's getting into muscle and they'll say, well, how do they find that out? Now you've slowed down the whole process, right?

42:52Now we got to stop and figure that out, but we're still building bones. Let's just build bones. He finds it out. We'll figure that out later. We just need that right those are bones right um in this case i would i would think of the armature uh it it changes slightly when you're thinking about bone muscle skin and the armature is really the the soul at that point oh yeah right yeah right i hadn't thought of that yeah right it's the heart right yes yeah right yeah it's the spirit the consciousness the core right yeah right at that point. That's great. And then so then the bones are, you know, this has to happen.

43:31This has to happen. These kinds of things. The muscle is all the things, all that working out, like how does he find out and blah, blah, blah. And then what does he do exactly? And how does that guy get a hold of a gun, even though whatever it is, right? You know, you've got to figure all that stuff out. And that's muscle. And skin is maybe we could shoot it in black and white because of blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, maybe this should have a more cartoony style because of X, Y, it still needs to serve your point, but making that choice about the skin or maybe this is a Western and maybe this is a samurai thing because none of that other stuff changes.

44:12Right. Yes. And you can also do interesting things too where one of my favorite uh ways this plays out in a way that is surprising is when you can't and this is where there's an art to it to me where you can then uh do what i call a mismatch for a purpose so i think about things like the cure being when you first hear the cure the band it sounds upbeat and like dance music right and then you and it but then when you notice the disconnect between how depressing what they're talking about is it makes you lean in and it gives you it it it hooks you right and so there are interesting things too of and this it kind of reminds me of um shalaman's thing where he talks about how um he worked out that he could put different skin on it but it had to be less interesting than the soul that you're saying like the twist had to be an elevation of the plot like he noticed like he kept have you talked about this before i can't remember if i've heard you kind of i have written about shamalan before yeah i heard him say this i thought he's he he was like he he made he was making these movies and he felt like he got into a rut because he didn't realize that if he sold it as an action movie and then it ended up being a drama that felt like the stakes lowered and so he realized he had to flip it the other way where the soul had to kind of outdo the skin um and that's kind of you know it's abstract but i think that's where the artistry comes in like that's where you get creative about how are we going to, like, what is the best way to bring this soul to life for people?

46:08You know? Yeah. It's funny. Um, I, I think very little about the skin. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Because a guy I know is, is learning how to sculpt. Yeah. And, uh, and I told him, okay, you got to start, You got to, you know, the bones, muscle, skin thing. And he and as he did his research and learned more, he found out that's what you have to do. And here's what's interesting. If you're sculpting in clay, if you sculpt the muscles. and you lay the skin on, it will do all the things it's supposed to do. And the muscles make it work. So it's like, even though people see the surface and they think it's all happening on the surface, it's the muscles that make it do what it's doing.

47:00And so I always think that the skin kind of takes care of itself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I, and I'm just, you know, that's, I love, I love, we're adding all these layers because now we've got the sole on all the way up to the skin. And then as you're saying that, then I'm thinking about, I want to go back to you thinking primarily about the sole of it. Cause I think there's some other in the collaboration. Cause I think there's something else interesting there too. But then the next piece that comes to mind is the clothes and how you dress it. And then I feel like we're getting into this territory of the timeless soul of a thing versus the timely attention grabbing.

47:43I'm like you too in that where I get interested in is the soul. That's what I'm all about. But I'm interested in the fact that what grabs people's attention is often the clothes. That's true. It's an interesting dynamic. Yes. Having said that. Yeah. First of all, okay, Sid Caesar was a comedian. Sid Caesar was a comedian who had a TV show in the 50s that is really the grandfather of Saturday Night Live, essentially. And Sid Caesar was very it was a major show. The writers on that show are legendary. They ended up being some of the best. Mel Brooks was on that writing staff. But everybody who was on that writing staff is at that level of as long as they were alive they were relevant now Brooks is still relevant right now right he's like almost 100 years old like yeah this was a major show and since Caesar said something really interesting in an interview he said he said uh you know you can walk on stage and have a funny costume and you'll get a lot of laughs and he said but after that you better have something funny to say because that costume ain't getting no more laughs right and and to the point of Shyamalan like it better be what you have to say better be funnier than the costume right like you better ramp it up from there or if you can't outperform it you're in trouble right so so that's the thing right so that's the problem with the skin and concentrating on the skin.

49:36It's like, yeah, that'll work for a little while, but it won't really sustain you. And what's interesting is, if you take all that away, if you take a classic like It's Wonderful Life or The Wizard of Oz, style has moved on from those things. It has not diminished anyone's enjoyment of those things. Yes. Right? So you take The Wizard of Oz, acting styles have changed, right? the way people shoot things has changed, right? You needed a lot of light back then, right? So everything is bright and overlit, right? It was a bigger deal to shoot outside. So all the exteriors are interiors, right? And that gives things a kind of false quality.

50:23There's all these things, right? The special effects, which were groundbreaking at the time, and some of them are still amazing, but compared to what we can do now, right? But it doesn't stop anybody from believing anything that happens in that story. Definitely. Right. And I completely agree with you. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to say that. So what happens is the skin ends up being superficial. And I completely agree. I'll say two things that I'm just adding here because I, you know, I'm primarily talking to, I know a lot of times you're probably talking to creative people, but sometimes I imagine, you know, we're talking to a business or you're talking to people that manage creative people or, you know, executives or whatever.

51:05Like, I think the message they need to hear for sure is the soul is what matters. Like this, this is what matters. And I think to me, I'm just thinking about primarily creative people who may be already subscribed to the idea that the essence, the espresso, that's what matters. And I'm just saying 100%. But remember that the close is often what sells it to the regular public and to executives. And it doesn't really matter. Or at least the degree at which it matters is that it's additive to the soul, not subtractive. You know, because I think about Pixar and I'm like, I do think all the so many, I mean, I know that Pixar is celebrated for story, but I think what a lot of people, what brought them to the forefront was, oh, it's this technology.

52:03We've never seen it. And a lot of the wrong lessons get learned from that. And that happens over and over and over. That's true. So I'm totally right there with you, but I'm kind of talking to creative people. I'm like, yeah, I agree. Like it's not really what matters, but just realize that it's the same thing as like a book cover is like, it's not really the key, but it does make a difference on whether people, how people think about it. Right. Well, it has a job to do. It has a job. I love that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so, um, um, my, actually my, one of my editors at, uh, for a second where I did land of the dead, uh, basically said that about covers.

52:43He didn't push back on any of the art things. He goes, but the cover does have a job to do. Right. And I will push back on the cover because that has to sell the book. Right. Yeah. And I like the cover of the book, but it doesn't. Yeah. But here's what I've seen. Here's what I've noticed over and over again. And this is the stuff I am most proud of when I get out of the way. So when I get out of the way, what's interesting is I'll give you, I'll give you an example. Yeah. One of my favorite things in any story is in Peter Pan. And it's the crocodile. Yeah. And the crocodile, right? And here's why.

53:29The crocodile, you know, has swallowed a clock. Right. And so Captain Hook can hear. He's scared of this crocodile. He can hear it coming. Okay. Here's what's interesting about that. But Barry, who wrote Peter Pan, had a brother who died when he was a kid. And they referred to him as the boy who didn't grow up. Never Neverland is a land of the dead. You can't stay there. Right? Yeah. The boys who stay there are lost. Yeah. You can't stay in childhood forever. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's fun while you're there, but you can't live there. Right. So there's that. Yes. Okay. So that's what that piece is all about.

54:23Right. Now, growing up also includes growing old and it includes diet. Captain Hook is also running from death. right yeah the crocodile is death and it is pursuing him and it even has a piece of him already yeah right which is why he has a hook yeah right so death takes us a little bit at a time right love it so this ticking clock with teeth is chasing hook yeah right now that looks like creativity, but it is only going to your armature to figure out what to create. Yes. You can be way more creative if you listen to your armature than you ever could be trying to come up with a crocodile with a clock in its stomach, just chasing a guy.

55:17You can't come up with that idea unless you are adhering to your armature. And that also happens on the skin level. What does it say it should look like? Because it will be innovative. It will be interesting. It will do all those things. But if you listen to it, once you have your armature, you become a servant of that armature. And every decision you make is based on an armature. You will be more creative than you could otherwise be. Yeah. I freaking love that. I love that example. It's so powerful. And it speaks to, I think, you know, again, the getting out of the way thing, To me, it's almost like I've given a lot of thought to how the meat and the skin, it emanates from the soul in a way that's like similar to dreams and that you have this prelingual self, like the unconscious self, the older part of us that before we learn to talk in terms of humanity, that communicates in pictures.

56:22And so it has, it communicates in symbols. And so once you have that piece of, this is the thing I want to communicate, that's where you build on the creativity comes from or it speaks for you in that it starts to give you leads on the kind of symbols that will personify the point. Right, right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that example is just so powerful. And I, and I also think, um, you know, I want to, we always end with like an action that people can take with these ideas, things they can put to their practice. We call it the call to adventure CTA. Um, and, um, and so I want to get to that, but I think the way I want to frame it is, uh, as an illustrator early on, you know, when you think about illustration, most illustrators I know, myself included, you start and you fall in love because of people's style.

57:24Right. And you want to find your style. Right. Right. And the thing that I have tried to, I did a class all about finding your style. And the truth is it's really about finding your substance because it start, it emanates from there, you know? Um, and so I wondered if, so for, for artists, illustrators, authors, whatever, finding that substance, that soul to build a story around or to build, to get, to take cues from, from your style. That really is the, the, the heart of the thing. I wondered if you had any, with your teaching and workshops, if you had any hacks for how do I notice these things, these souls that I can build stuff from?

58:12What it comes down to, that's a question people have a lot. They're like, how do I find an armature? And usually they look outside for an armature. Which is a mistake, I think. Yeah, it is a huge mistake. You have to look inside for the armature. And there is something that they know. There is something that you believe. And there is something you have learned from some hardship. There just is. You don't get through life without it. You can be in the, it doesn't matter how old you are. None of that stuff matters. There's something you have survived or you wouldn't be here. Right? So there's something you survived and there's something that you know to be true from your experience.

59:00you so you just have to look at yourself what are the things that hold you back what are the things that have moved you ahead all those things are you and you know those things you know you might not want to think about them but in order to be a good storyteller that is what you have to think about. You know, you have to be, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. And that means even to yourself and to look at the parts of yourself that you don't necessarily want to look at. Vulnerability scares people because they, they think people will attack them for their vulnerabilities. Yeah. The way I was explaining it to somebody, as I said, they, they said, well, how do I trust people with that?

59:50And, you know, that's it. And I said, well, if you look at a dog, when a dog rolls over and wants you to rub their belly in the natural world of wolves, that is a submissive action because all the things that you could kill you are vulnerable. So if another wolf wants to take advantage, they can. You're saying, I trust you. I submit. you win. But if you think about it as a dog, it's a very likable position. Oh, right. Right. Right. Right. And it's exactly what happens when you are vulnerable. It invites connection. Right. Yes. It says, I'm trusting you with this. And that that's exactly what brings people in.

1:00:40That's the kind of stuff that people lean into when they can sense that this is a vulnerable thing. Right. I think it's I think it's definitely true. And I love that as a prompt to think about what are the what are the vulnerable areas that you could reveal. Right. As an act of trust with your audience. Yeah. And what's interesting is everybody's afraid that people will look at your work and see you, but that's not what happens. They look at their work, your work when you are vulnerable and they say to themselves, how did they know that about me? That's what happens. that's that's amazing that's amazing well i i i can i could talk to you for hours and hours i got plenty more i've got more theories and stuff that i want to throw at you eventually and i might make a my own kind of class or book or something sometime but i owe a ton to you because i feel like this piece um the pieces that you outline in in the book are just foundational And I think anybody creating anything needs that kind of substance to build from.

1:01:56And so I really hope people check out the new version of the book. Where can they find it? Wherever fine books are sold. So, yeah, you should be able to find it anywhere. And if it's not a bookstore that you like to go to, they can order it. So, you know, some people are anti-Amazon, but you can get it there. you know, or not, you know what I mean? You know? Um, but, uh, yeah, you can find it anywhere. And where do you, where can people find you? Where do you want to send them? Oh, uh, they could go to my website, uh, um, uh, right invisible link. They can follow me on Instagram. I'm B Micadie.

1:02:40So it's B E E M A C D E E. So, uh, on Instagram and, uh, yeah, those are the places where you can find me. Awesome. Thanks, man. Oh, thanks for having me. It was really fun.

1:03:08All right. Check out the book Invisible Inc., the new edition of the book Invisible Inc. Wherever you get your books, maybe an indie bookstore if you can. We love to support indie bookstores. Go check it out. Invisible Inc. by Brian McDonald. Just a fantastic book about story that has just given me so much over the years and really inspired a lot of this podcast. I love Brian's work. I love the way he thinks. He's got a few books out on story. and yeah, go check him out and follow along so that you can stay tuned into all of the great insight that he has. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show and I hope you get to come back again someday.

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