478 - Make Your Art an Invitation with Brad & Kristi Montague

30:17Why did you want to do this? It's a combination of lots of things. One being, you know, you've interviewed lots of people. So, you know this sense too, that it's really fun to talk about the kind of resume pieces, the things that you did that, you made that cool. Like, that's nice. But then when you get to kind of do those conversations that's about the detours or about the job that didn't go right, the company that they wrecked, the audition that was so bad that it's now studied by a school as how not to audition, which is what our friend Sarah shared that story. You're like, oh, that's like, now I'm learning about you.

31:02I'm learning about humanity. I'm learning the good stuff. And I started thinking about like, man, I would, it's cool when they do, you know, interviews with CEOs about, you know, what their dreams are over the company and where they're headed. But it'd be far more interesting if business school was just all, hey, here's what this guy did that just was a disaster. This was a fiasco. Don't do that. And that's what I want to hear from people. And they sort of realized, like, I'm with kids a lot. Yeah. I don't tell them the things that, you know, went wrong or went sideways. And it was a principal of a school in Oklahoma who was telling me a story of seeing his kids.

31:50He was doing a guided drawing of the Grinch around Christmas time. And he saw kids, you know, happily drawing. And he saw a big crowd of them, like, start to crumple the paper up or hit the table and getting frustrated. that their drawing didn't look like that. And that he was explaining to me that that was one symptom in which he saw over and over again that there was this bubble of perfectionism that needed to pop this stressful idea that they had to be perfect or do exactly right on a test. And that sort of anxiety bubbling up and then learning that one in three kids deals with anxiety to such a degree that like they can't function you're just going whoa whoa whoa like as bad as it affects us like there's children growing up and and hey we gotta change the conversation about this is part of the process and it sometimes it hurts and it's disappointing but we can kind of help each other grow through that so what if school was a safe place to make a mistake and grow what if like they understood that there was a community around them that there was this way through to kind of playfully approach problems and to not avoid failure, but to fail better.

33:09And I mean, it's something that I needed, but I know you, like, what, this is like a book you would have. I would have loved it. Yeah. I think one of the things too, that even working on this book that I've realized is that one of the things I love about Brad is that he is not afraid to try things. And so we have had so many different things that we've done, like weird rooms we've ended up in, just because of him, you know, calling somebody and or messaging somebody on social media and being like, Hey, I want to interview you or I want to talk to you about this. And he's tried so many things. And so he's also felt like, Oh, I failed a lot because a lot of those things he thought, Oh, this will be the thing.

33:50Like he created lots of things before he created Kim President. And he told me once, like, yeah, I thought every single one of those was the thing. Like, this was going to take off. I can relate so much to this. Yes. So it's difficult to hear almost. And one of the things that I've realized, though, through working on this, like, as we've been trying to think of, like, oh, what are some stories that we could tell? Like, out of fail-a-bration, I feel like I don't have that many stories. Like, I was like, I haven't stepped out of that comfort zone as much as he has to really try things and to, you know, do something different and to, to get out there and actually fail.

34:27And so I think that's something that was an important lesson for me to learn too. And just be like, oh, what am I not trying? Like I should be failing more than I am. So what can I get out there and actually start doing? Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. Dr. Pizza, we just had a breakthrough.

34:51not a real doctor just in case you know um i don't want to be funny asking for more therapy i want my money back

35:21I mean, that's a really interesting kind of turn that I wouldn't have thought about if someone prompts you, like, what are your failures? I wonder even if there's, there's first of all, like, do I have any, like, what are they? But then also how, you know, speaking of therapy, how repressed are they? Or can I even think of them? Or have I just detached myself from them? And like you talk about in the book, these are like the prime learning experiences. And then also as creators, those are our prime stories. Because the further I get into telling stories and just kind of loving storytelling, the more I feel – when I watch a movie where the protagonist gets what they want from the start, I pretty much feel like I think this story is broken.

36:17Like I really do feel like that. And especially if it's satisfying, if they get what they want and they're satisfied by what they want, I'm like, I'm not sure this is a story. And so, you know, the getting in touch with these failures is both a learning experience. Also, you know, getting comfortable with it is a powerful thing. Yeah. It's interesting. I hadn't, I mean, I've definitely mined a lot of my failures because I'm always trying to find stories to tell on the podcast and on stage and stuff like that. But it's a really interesting, like collecting failures as a, as a, as proof of trying.

37:00Exactly. It's a really great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Like a good scout receives their badges.

37:13I realized maybe I should have remembered to feed the goldfish. I realized maybe don't carry my daughter's Lego set that we worked on all day with my own hands and really quickly on Christmas day and then drop it. That's what happened. Imagine if that actually happened. Oh yeah. If somebody did that, that would be just, I mean, worst dad of the year.

37:41But are you going to, now you've got to do demerit badges. That's basically for, for failures. Speaking of the, the goldfish one, I was going to ask you what, there's so many funny failure examples in the book. I wondered what both of your favorite failures were in there. And then I'll share the one I like the most. Well, you know, one for me was hugged the wrong grandpa. That's mine. Dang it. I have a memory of doing it with my aunt. I thought I saw my Aunt Shelby in a mall was not Aunt Shelby. I hope this wasn't like last year. That would be a real problem. No, that would be, it would be. Hey, Shelby, get off.

38:32What are you doing? We were in a mall. There's a lot of people. One of Brad's failures. She was like, oh, what is that? I was like, you're not, Hitch. You know, yeah, it's a whole thing. And yeah. Yeah, when I read hugged the wrong grandpa, I was cracking up. That's hilarious. And I love the goldfish one, too. Do you remember what the line is? oh he's giving a speech to uh his friends and he says and that is why you should always remember to feed your goldfish and his bowl is empty yeah yeah and then he's just carrying the bowl around yeah yeah i love that's another metaphor put down the bowl okay let's move past it um that is really funny christy did you think of one yeah i think the the kid that ripped his pants like while he was trying to dance in front of his friends.

39:26And so that one was fun too. Cause we like just ripped the paper. And so it's like his pants are actually ripped. Yeah. Yeah. He looks also like he's doing a pretty sweet dance move when it happened. So yeah, it kind of feels like it was worth it. It was marked. Yeah. Beauty is worth it. Yeah. I love it. And ripped, ripped pants is always good. They never get that. That's just a classic. You remember that part in parks and rec where they, where Jerry rips his pants. Oh man. Oh man. That was, I was like, this is the, this is the lamest joke ever. And I'm crying. He just had this, you love him. You just love him.

40:06You want him to be okay. And it's just all these just derpy things happen around him. It was, it was really satisfying though to see that he had a beautiful family at the end. Okay. He's actually lived. He's the happiest of all. I wanted to talk about, you know, I'm glad that I'm glad there was something to what I was perceiving about how this book really feels like it captures the worlds that you guys create online and your creative voice in a fresh way, like in a way that I hadn't seen in a picture book. And I'm glad that you guys were feeling that. I wondered, for me, every new creative project comes with its own sets of failures, but also, hopefully, most of the time, there's something that feels like, oh, this is a breakthrough.

40:59Like this is a creative thing that I'm really like excited about. Was there for this project, is there something that kind of shines as like, this is a new breakthrough moment for us creatively? I feel like the flow between us felt like the easiest on this book. And I don't know if it just comes from working on multiple books together or if it was just the way we worked on this one, but it just seemed like it really just like moved so easily and seamlessly, I guess, from, from him to me and then back to him. And I mean, where we just kind of like, we're able to work on it in such an easy way and without much communication, even like it, it worked out really well.

41:43Yeah. It's like, Oh, just level of trust gets built up over time. And, you know, I have a friend who's a golfer. I'm not a golfer. You're not a golfer either. No way. I don't think I could possibly do that. I'm down with, you know, colorful pants. We can be team colorful pants. We can just get together. I could smack a golf ball. Like I could do a driving range thing maybe. We could do it. Maybe let's just start a midlife guys who like colorful pants club. We'll hang out. Okay. I like that. My friend, he plays golf a lot. And he said what keeps him going back is he's just good enough. Like he gets just enough that he's kind of like, ah, next time.

42:21And I felt that way with books where it's like it's almost like what was in my head. almost like what we were going for. And, and this, this one did the same thing. Cause the last book, we had so many layers and textures and things that we were trying to create by hand and these worlds and characters and this, and it's like, we almost got it to what was in our heads. And this one, we got to do it again. And now we've got that itch of, Oh, we almost had it feel like, like they're in the workshop with us. And so the next book will have even more of that. So kind of hooked on that feeling of, ah, almost got it.

42:58I love that because I feel like it gets into that kind of creating for the sake of creating energy. That's that intrinsic motivation that keeps you going. And by the way, your other books are fantastic. They do really different things, but I did just notice like, oh, this is a little bit of the humor side that I know there's some funny stuff and the other ones too but this is just they're every step of the way you're adding another layer well i was afraid you know i'm always been afraid because humor is as um uh can be perceived so differently and um and i didn't want it to distract from any messages before and i didn't want in and yet when i'm reading in a classroom with kids or with people i add the jokes or these little asides.

43:50And, and so more and more you're going, it needs to feel like it's, it's as if we're with them. And, and my favorite books are funny. Like they just are. And they're the ones we reread and reread over and over. And my favorite drawings are funny drawings, my favorite, you know, and, and, and so that's... And kids' favorites are funny things. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, there's actually like a whole thing, a whole back and forth, because I just kept adding mice to every page, like wanting mice. And the editor was like, you know, maybe it's just humans. We don't need – and so I started a whole PowerPoint presentation of why the mice were vital.

44:31You wanted to keep the animals in the store. And I finally just wrote a letter, like, you know, I just like them. Yeah, yeah. No, I like them. But that was a thing that I'm learning to chase and defend more is joy and leaning in towards those things that, you know, oh, this just is lighting up every light in my brain of this is fun. This is what I want there to be more of. And if the book is an invitation to have less fear and more fun and see failure as not catastrophic, but as a catalyst for creativity and goodness, like it needed to be silly too. I, uh, the other thing that came to mind a lot when I'm reading it was, oh, this is a, this is very, uh, adjacent to the really important, uh, literature around things like growth mindset, fixed mindset that I think is really powerful and important for everybody, including kids.

45:46Um, and I think this, um, the thing that you brought up about how much more seamless the process was in the collaboration reminded me of how in my own collaborations, how over time that happens as you learn how each other works, what each other is good at and what your preferences are, all that stuff. And, you know, when I first started working with Sophie, there was some, it was really choppy and awkward in the way that we were trying to do a creative process. And, um, I was trying to tap into that growth mindset that said hard isn't bad and that it doesn't mean that it's not right. And trying to hold on to, yeah, but every time we do it, it gets a little bit better.

46:39Like it, every time, everything we've made is better than what I can make on my own and better than what we made before. Um, and so, you know, I, I, it reminds me of the kind of the themes of the book, because that's one of the things I always say when people try to collaborate with people that are close to them or not. It doesn't mean that it's supposed to feel easy from the first go or that it's supposed to just work like kismet. So I'm glad that you brought that up. There's some tension. That tension is good and it can be healthy. And it means that you're chipping away at the unnecessary and finding the vital.

47:20And, you know, it's interesting too, along the way, as we're like working on this, you know, growth mindset came from this researcher, Carol Dweck and, and, and, and her student actually just wrote a book that furthered that study to, you know, growth mindsets about individuals. And this new book is, is cultures, cultures of growth. I always say the title. You caught it. And the whole spirit is it's, you know, how does an entire culture grow? And it's through communities of growth where it's safe to share things that weren't safe to share and grow and mess up, but have a collective growth mindset.

48:06And classrooms are the perfect place to model that. And my hope is that, you know, the kids growing now will, you know, their imaginations will be furnished with an image of what it looks like for people to grow together. And it's not just an individual growth mindset, but how can we, you know, have everywhere be a place where you can dream and help others dream, grow and help others grow? And that, yeah, it doesn't mean it's always going to be utopia. It's going to be – but there will be problems, but we will work through them together. And that's the idea of it's not about not failing. It's just us all failing better.

48:52And that means not doing it alone. And one of the first images that I worked on for the book is a spread of a kid who's wrecked his bicycle. and and i was thinking about the like um the those those uh religious paintings where it's a strip you know of a whole bunch of people in different poses or whatever but where it's it's the drama is not oh he's not being picked up he wrecked his bike and it's a tragedy instead it's this group of people just waiting for him to realize they're there that they're they've also failed too and that they have something to offer him just as he has something. And so that was like this image that I thought I've seen that stories can create more stories.

49:43And I've seen that the images we put out into the world can become more images like it. So that's an image that I want there to be more of. Kids realizing they're not alone and there's a whole bunch of people ready to help pick them up and they can be part of either side of that. And they will be. some days they're the kid that wrecked the bike some days they're the kid helping the other so yeah we take turns i love that i was thinking about one of the things that i've tried to develop in myself and then i've talked about on the show is that i've noticed like you know a lot of values that work to your benefit creatively are kind of contradictory and they require like muscle memory and discernment to know which is needing to be accessed at this moment.

50:34So if you read about success, the two things you're going to hear that are, in theory, kind of polar opposites are grit and pivoting. And so how do you know when you grit and when you pivot? It's very complicated. And I've learned like, oh, yes, you can like learn the kind of difficulties that are the good kind and which are the bad kind. Sometimes it's just like experimenting, you know, creating little tests so that because you can't always know. But I love what you said because it adds to the tool belt for discerning the difference between the good hard and the bad hard. And it's having people around you that can help you notice like you're banging your head against the wall and it's not really going to help anything.

51:26Like you're just that's just bad. That's bad pain versus, you know, I know this doesn't seem like a book, but and it might be hard to do that. But, Brad, could we try? Could we make it into something? Can we try it? I think that that is such a really good tool is having that outside point of view. Yeah. I think creatively what has changed things for me is when I have decided to involve more people and open my arms and welcome people in instead of being closed off. and inviting people and playing and playing together and letting that lead to somewhere, whether it's a video, whether it's an event, whether it's a book, that becomes the place where it can grow from really.

52:23It's healthy ground for something really good to grow from when you've got a lot of voices that you believe in, they believe in you, and they bring an interesting view to it, then all right, let's play together. Let's see what we can do. And we're trying to do that more. I want to do it more. Christy, do you, when you notice that the collaboration isn't in the healthy difficulty stage, have you learned things that help kind of jumpstart it back into the right direction? I think time is helpful. And if we're not procrastinating, then we have that. But sometimes with deadlines and everything, it's like, okay, we got to figure this out, you know, like, and getting accidentally writing another book.

53:14Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, I have like two months to get this done. And so trying to make sure we have enough time built in that we can kind of work through problems. Like, because I feel like a lot of times, especially when we're butting heads over something, if we can just step away from it, even for just a day and then come back to it and look at it again it's like oh okay yeah okay i see why you're saying that let's do it this way you know or whatever but uh yeah i don't know with this one i don't feel like we even really had much of that like there were times that you were like oh it's fine and i'm like no it needs to rework like i've got to redo the spread messier make it messier like the the bicycle one that he was talking about like when i first photographed it i had like two of the characters overlapping and it was driving me crazy and i was like no like it's blocking, you know, this one character.

53:59And I'm like, the way they're overlapped, it's got to be fixed. And so I ended up like redoing that one right before we turned it in. Like we had already turned everything in and I'm like, wait, okay, there's one more spread that I've got a new version of. Oh, and then the ground we even, we switched out. Cause it just, yeah, it was like, we just kept reworking. Only matter to us. One of those things. We were like, ah, this has got to happen. But yeah, that, that was a huge learning curve for me where sometimes I'll go in with my own, we're going in with our own standards. And what happens there is you can have a misconnection in your mind where it feels like you're arguing like, this is the important thing.

54:40And that person's like, no, this is the important thing. It's like, we need to just finish this bread. No, that, you know, we need to get the like, and then you, I realized over time, like, oh, the, what's good is that we're taking care of the standards of separate things. Like we're both, and that's what actually makes it better. We're not needing to argue about, this is the main thing. This is the main thing. That can be your main thing. And this is my main thing. We recognize that. It's really, it was difficult for me to learn. Yeah. Sometimes even like finding a balance in between them, because like there are things that Brad does a really great job with sketching of like creating like a personality and creating kind of a feeling or things like that, where he can capture the energy of something.

55:21But then like, I'll look at it and be like, okay, but a body can't actually be in that shape. Like something's off, the legs is just not working. And so it's like trying to capture what he captured, but also in a way that actually makes a little bit more sense. It's like, okay, you know, like, if I can change the knees a little bit still, you know, make it feel the energy it had, I don't want to lose that. But trying to find a way that, yeah, your body can and actually get in the same. And though you get to like, I love the spontaneity of a line. Like, and sometimes it's just impossible to replicate.

55:56And so keeping that pure while finding where the other parts are that you can articulate or switch in some way where the spontaneity is still there so that it does feel. The character doesn't have two knees, but you still have kind of some flavor. It's tough. I get, I mean, you know, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why our next book will just be a multiverse kind of thing or that's it's multi need. Yeah, they got 18 fingers in that universe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So, OK, we usually end with a call to adventure, something you can act on. And the thing that I am really inspired by from you guys is this.

56:45It's so I'm noticing how unusual it is for creative people to make something that causes other people to make stuff, especially in the world of where art meets commerce. it gets really scarcity and really it's easy to get in this place where what you made you want to be the final thing in this direction like this like i did this so nobody else can do this and this notion of i made this book so other books like this will be made i made this party so that other people would try parties like this it's such a flip and i think it's served you all really well over the years. It's been a beautiful thing.

57:30I wondered if you could give any tip on how to notice, how to turn that up with an idea that you have and let it be something that people can run with. Like I, it reminds me of like the grateful dead. One of the things that's attributed to their success and ongoing success was like early on, they made a decision not to crush their fans, bootlegs. Yeah. And it really caused this ownership and this pride and togetherness around it. And obviously that's just what's made it endure even past the band members being alive. Like it lives on with these people. The guitar strap from the band just released an album.

58:11It was the wildest thing. And so I wondered if you could, cause you guys have a lot of experience doing this. You've done these kinds of things a lot. I wondered if you could talk about either how to recognize an idea like that or Or how to take an idea and maybe inject some of that into it. I think a big part of it is perspective. And I think one of our friends wants to describe Brad as a Pied Piper. They're like, Brad is just like the Pied Piper. Like he just constantly is creating things for people to follow and like get behind him. And I'm in like, they were like, yeah, like whatever he does.

58:45I love it. But I feel like that story is important. In a good way. That story ends tragically. You know. Teachers don't read into that. But I think one of the big things with Brad is like everything he creates, he wants it to be a party that everybody's invited to. And so I feel like a lot of the words that like Kid President said that, you know, Brad created were just about, you know, I'm not in a party. I am a party. But like, that's you. Like you want to create that party and you want everybody to be there. And so I think his perspective on everything is just to approach it that way. do you christy that's very nice have you noticed though like even if that's brad's nature because this is the one one of the things sometimes like i can train my brain to see things like you know something in my brain that tells me when i'm moving through life notice that kind of thing it's like the yellow car thing where you're like there's no yellow cars and then you think that and then you see like 10.

59:43Do you think because of Brad's nature being that, that you have also learned to pick up those kinds of threads? Oh yeah, definitely. Um, and I think that's something too, is I think he pushes me out of my comfort zone a lot. I mean, I think there's, you know, the whole dreamer and realist thing. There's a lot that I would have just been like, oh no, there's too many things like that would make that difficult, you know, like, Yeah. But he pushes me to see the possibilities and to, you know, figure out like, OK, yeah, we can do this. Like, let me think through it, you know, but we can do this. Well, that's one of the things that you remember the show Pete and Pete, right?

1:00:22Yes. Nickelodeon 90s, The Adventures of Pete and Pete. Best show ever. Brad energy. Right. OK. I'm obsessed with it. Love it. I believe it's the best show. There's an episode of that where little Pete hears a song. and it's this band. He loves it. And then the band is playing in his garage and he hears it and he's just like obsessed with it. Well, then he can't find the band. He can't find the song. So the whole episode is about him being so obsessed with hearing that song again. And it is so beautiful because then it ends with him just finally creating a band. And it's the happiest, most joyful ending of him creating his memory of what that song was.

1:01:01there's another movie uh rambo 2 or what is it a son of rambo it's a kid who saw rambo like through it so it's him trying to recreate seeing rambo from his memory there's something about like robert frost talked about poems begin as a lump in your throat that that you have such a strong desire for something to exist that it overwhelms even your abilities to bring it to life. Like, like, so that's what drives me. Cause I, I am not the best illustrator and yet I want this thing that's in my head to exist. And so it, it, I'm overwhelmed with the dream to, to bring it to reality. And so like, um, and I also loved like the liner notes to the Velvet Underground album that when they did a re-release of the, um, the self-titled one, Velvet underground and Nico where somebody wrote that their first album didn't sell that many copies, but every person who bought a copy of it started their own band.

1:02:06And it's like, what is more powerful? You know, and that, that is that, that they, they tapped into this well of creativity and said, Hey, you're invited. You can do it too. And, and it unleashed more music on the world. And so that, that's cool to me. That's like, like, Hey, The well of creativity is deep. Like there's so many stories to tell and so many things. So let's tap into what is that thing you want to exist? What's that feeling? What's that lump in your throat? What's that song that you just can't? Shazam's not going to dig it up for you. You can't. So you've got to make it. That leads to really weird places.

1:02:47Nobody asked for it. But here you are. Yeah. usually anytime we do anything brad starts it with being like oh nobody asked for this but we did fill up race like the very first one we're like getting everything ready and we have pulled in a friend uh holly to help us like create this like whole you know stage scene and all this stuff and he's realizing like how many people are now involved in this and how many things are happening and he's like nobody asked for this nobody asked for this and i'm like but it needs to exist like and so you hit that point of the journey where you're just like oh no like like i what how did we get into this i didn't ask like nobody um you know that documentary where verner herzog's trying to pull a boat over like a mountain a burden of dreams the title of a documentary about him making fitz carraldo and you know he's roped all these people into to doing It's dangerous.

1:03:45People are exhausted. They're yelling at each other. They're in the middle of the jungle. But he has this vision of the boat must go over the mountain. And it's insane, but I get it. I am really inspired by that because whenever I speak to creators that are in situations that feel uninspiring, you know, maybe they're in a job where the creative problems are solving or they're not even creative problems. You know, that's a stretch, are not exciting or inspiring. I always talk about like the biggest opportunity to really exert your creativity is the least inspiring situation. It is the place where, you know, when, if, if Nike comes and says, Hey, can you do a 10 story mural with a team of people?

1:04:37Like it doesn't even take that much creativity to do that. Like in that moment, when you get that really juicy, creative opportunity, you're just like, all right, let's go. Like play easy. But the things that totally turned my career into a different direction were the times where nobody was asking me to do that. And it was the least inspiring scenario because I'm making a T-shirt or I'm making a podcast. Nobody said they wanted that. And that's a very – trusting the voice inside that's asking you to do that is a really difficult thing to do. Yeah. And then like I see so many truly brilliant people get stuck on thinking they have to get it perfect the first time.

1:05:23And that it doesn't have to be fully formed. Just iterate, you know, like do the thing. Make it. Yeah. You know, and I keep learning that of, OK, I don't have to really knock it out of the park this first time. Let's just figure that's we just want to throw a party. OK, well, let's do it. And if the worst that happens, we get together and we had some snacks, that sounds like a great night. But if it grows into a movement where there's people in how many countries now? Yeah, I think we're up to 20 countries. 20 countries. Every state except New Hampshire and Rhode Island. Get with it. You know anybody in the States.

1:06:02It's all perfection there, though. Get with it. Grow a fail-a-bration there. But it grows. And so it's following that desire to add beauty or to add joy, to add something that lights you up, that you want to transfer that and add it. That always leads to the stuff that I resonate with that people are creating, whether it's a song or an image or book, an album, whatever. It's usually something somebody was like, ah, if only I could add this noise, this joy to the world. And then they find they're not alone. And I think that the book is a great example of this. I think teachers and parents are going to love it, but even better, kids will love it.

1:06:55It's funny. There's ripped pants in there. There's mentions of dead goldfish. Like it's really good. And, uh, and I'm really, uh, proud to know you two and to be able to watch, you know, I've got to watch so much of your creative journey and it's been really inspiring. So, uh, thanks. Thanks for the new book. Thanks for, um, continuing to show up and fail and succeed. Um, thanks for being here. Dude. Anytime, Andy. And we got to hang out with Christie too. I know. It's the most. It's great. It really, you know, soften your edges. It really helps. It really, really helps. Just really good. Thanks, guys.

1:07:42Thanks so much.

1:08:05Okay, y 'all, don't forget to go get a copy of Failabration wherever you get your books. Hopefully an indie bookseller if you can make that work for you, but wherever you get it, go get it. Wherever you get those books, go get Failabration. It's a hilarious book and it illustrates such an important idea that I think is important for adults and kids alike. I'm back to talk about our creative call to adventure this week. We're calling it the first word. And the idea here is that it's the opposite of the last word. You know, I think when I go to make something or when I see other people go to create something, often we're trying to get there first, man.

1:08:49We're trying to get there first and be the last, put our stamp on it, be like, this thing is mine and nobody better touch it. I got the last word on this topic or idea. And I'm so inspired by the way that the Montagues continually try to be the first word. They try to be the start of a conversation. You know, failabration has sparked all of these events throughout the world. And I guarantee that people are finding ways of making it their own and making it meaningful to them. And it reminds me, like I said in the interview, of bands like the Grateful Dead who let their audience participate, who let their audience be part of the band and make merch and make bootlegs and all that kind of stuff.

1:09:35And you don't even have to go that far for it to be worth it to you. You know, for me, this has looked like things like when we post the Invisible Things poster, which is a project that's really central to my work, we'll often be like, tag which one is you. Just finding this way to invite people in to have ownership and excitement about making it a part of their identity. I think about this a lot. The bands that I loved the most weren't just bands whose music I thought sounded good, but they were things that said something about or taught me something new about who I am. And I used those bands in a way as shorthand for my identity.

1:10:16often joke like when I was a teenager, I'd be like, you know, if someone was like, who are you really? I'd be like, I don't know, but I'm a modest mouse fan. And that told you something about who I was. And that kind of relationship with a band or creator is the kind of thing that we're trying to steward and cultivate in our creative practice. Because not only is that just good sustainable practice. It's also a way to make the work a lot more meaningful because it becomes not just about me, but my connection to my humanity and the humanity of other people. And I think the Montagues do this brilliantly.

1:10:56So my call to adventure for you today is to think about how can your next post, how can your next book, how can your next song be the first word in a conversation that is ongoing? How can it be just a conversation starter instead of a conversation ender, period, dot, the end? This is mine, back off. How can you flip that on its head and be someone who sparks other creations with your creation?

1:11:33each episode of creative pep talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice if you're trying to transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby into a real discipline sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com so that you never miss an episode Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. You can learn more at podglomerate.com. Massive thanks to my team, Sophie Miller, for content editing and co-writing, to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design, and thanks to all of you for listening. Until next time, stay pepped up.

1:12:23talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them, like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts. okay the podcast is over so i don't know why you're still listening uh but i am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end i have one more thing for you if you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our creative career path hand booklet and the whole process is in there and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.

1:13:33But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all.