481 - Get Lost and Found in Your Work, With Sarah Walsh

30:24Not that I don't want people to think, oh, it's about horses and it's, you know, my pretty pony and pink and all that. And I, I am part of, part of doing this project is like embracing that and going, yeah, that's part of who I am. What of it? Like it's, it's powerful. It's amazing. I don't care what you think because it's always been sort of like in a way dismissed, like, Oh, unicorns. And it's like, they were everything for a second. And then they weren't again. And then blah, blah, blah. But it's they're magical. But my point is like, the book is about the book is about that. But it's also sort of not it's really it can build horses can be anything.

31:05It's more about the fear of growing up, the fear of what you think you'll become. um uh it's about being that 10 year old and i remember just thinking adults seemed like a 20 year old seemed so old they seemed so old to me like i didn't could not distinguish someone that was 20 from like 40 like they all looked the same seemed the same um my childhood was very chaotic Um, there was a lot of great things about it, but there was a lot of not so great things and just adults in my life. Uh, you just absorb their behavior. You absorb, they set the tone for just how you're, you're framing things in the world.

31:54And so, you know, if I were to do a book version of this, I would definitely want to dive a little deeper into that. and also just like how you perceive yourself with, you know, in the 80s, if you weren't skinny, you were fat and there was literally no in between. And I struggled with weight. I got teased, you know, just certain things like that. And so part of you in a way does want to grow up because you feel like you'll get a sense of control. You'll get more control and you'll be able to like defeat the bullies or whatever, but we all know that's not really true now. So you kind of resort to your 10 year old in a way, you know, like, Oh honey, you know, you, that was, that was an illusion, you know, there's no control, but yeah, I mean, I just, it's about growing up a lot of it and, and just not wanting to, and, and also preserving that part of you, because I think a lot lot of people feel like when they grow up, they have to put a lot of their, who they are, like a side to fit in and to function in society.

33:06And that makes me really sad. It makes me kind of angry. It makes me want to, you know, like scream from the top of a mountain, like, you don't have to do this. Like, you know, like a tre you like say my name, you know, it's just like, no, just be who you are and love the things you love and don't ever let them go. Like hold onto them for like dear life because it might save you sometimes, you know? I think one of the things that I try to remember is that when I'm feeling the feeling of, I wish I could put this on a billboard. I wish I could like that. That's great creative energy. Like that's, that's what to write a story about.

33:50And so that feeling of like, I want to go get on a mountain. You don't have to do this. Like, okay, we'll tell that story. And why do you feel that way? Like what, what happened? What are the, what happened in your life that made you feel that way? Yeah. And the plot of it too, like what actually happened? Um, and, uh, there's so, uh, man, there's so much good stuff here because I think the through line of everything we're talking about is this image and masking and trying to be something you're not trying to. And I, and the thing that I think is really interesting is, so I, I never get tired of the hero's journey for some reason, but I just like frameworks.

34:31I like stories, whatever. I like all that kind of stuff. But one of the things that I think is just a really good image is in the hero's journey. Like I think most myths and stories are, there are really like psychological journeys. You can read them as external things, or you can read them as internal things. And most of the idea of the hero journey is you go away from home and then you return home. And so psychologically it's about the necessary journey of trying to be something you're currently not to find out what you really are. No, it's so true. You just go through it over and over. And I thought, as you were saying that, I thought you going through this forcing it period, a lot of artists, you know, that they come out the other side and I, it reminds me of, um, the, the metaphor, the dad metaphor I have is it's like a slingshot.

35:24Like a lot, if you do a slingshot and it blings this thing far into the distance and you say, well, what's the thing that mattered? Like, when did it really happen? You'd say, when I let go. And you're like, yeah, but it was the tension of pulling it back. Like, and so that forcing that you did, I, the reason I bring that up is because if I'm in the listener's shoes and I'm, or I think about myself hearing this 15 years ago, I would be really, I, even now, even now I'm thinking the goofy thing of like, why am I, why can't I let my goofiness out in my books more? Some of my books have some goofiness for sure.

36:04The pizza book and invisible things both have. Yeah. But I could go, I'm so much weirder than that. I promise you. I'm so much weirder. And I'm trying to figure out like, how do I get that into a book? So I can hear that. But then I thought that no, like the forcing it is part of it because it, it, you know, pushes you, it grows you. it shows you what you're not and that helps you understand. It's so true. It's, it's like context, uh, tension and context, because if there's no tension, I remember my high school art teacher, she was like, where's the tension? It's like, I think I'm like, now I'm like, well, I worked at a greeting card company for 13 years.

36:47There's literally no tension in any of my work. You know, it's just like, what do you, I like was trained to not have tension. Can we get rid of the tension? Hallmark does not want the tension. Like, get it out of there. This isn't a story. No greeting card. I mean, that's not what we're selling. We're selling like happy vibes. Happy ending. You don't start with the problem. Like, here's the conflict of the card that I wanted to get in there. So you're old. Okay, let's deal with it. It sucks. Well, actually. But they are the joke ones, I guess. Actually, the humor, the humor ones do have tension, you know?

37:26So yeah, because to be funny, yeah, it's like you have to bounce. I feel like tension makes things like it just does. And I think too, like if you were a blob and you were just hanging out with other blobs and everything was kosher all the time, what would develop? Like literally nothing, nothing, nothing. Just, you would all just be blobs like hanging out and blobbing against each other and your blobs would be blobbing and nothing would form yeah it's true it's like yeah it's like way back in the past when it was just like one celled organism blobbing around like that one the more complex it gets the more interesting it gets the more you gotta have some tension and conflict you bring in a really spiky cell now we're talking boom now i got the booba and the uh what's the other one you know this thing what's it what is it called this is a crazy conversation do you know that thing kiki and booba you don't know this go look that up do your take the afternoon off i can't believe you haven't heard this because i just feel like maybe i have i'm really bad and then like a spiky uh shape and it's basically like it's like a personality test it's like you You can't, it's, you know, you can say like, oh, which, which one do I like?

38:47Which one feels more me? It's basically like a little blob. I'm both. That's a problem. And then like a spiky thing. I'm neither. I'm going to say Kiki and Booba. Booba? But here's. I don't know. Something like that. B-O-U-B-A. Oh, okay. But I'm neither one of those, I think. And that's been something my whole life. I'm never one thing and I'm never the other. I'm literally always fucking in between things. Yeah. And I've talked to some friends who feel the same way and it makes things complicated. Especially as an artist. And I definitely relate to that for sure. And maybe it's, I think it's more common than not actually, but I think we're just sort of trained to think, well, I'm this and I'm that.

39:39but I'm like, I don't, you know, but okay. Go check it out. It's interesting. It's interesting to me, especially because like kind of gets into, uh, there's a lot of that kind of thing in, um, invisible things where you're trying to, uh, personify abstraction. So like part of it is like part of that test is about, um, like, um, like is, I can't remember how I can't remember it exactly, but it's something like categorizing flavors as either smooth or spiky, like these synesthetic leaps. And what happens is like these things that are kind of nonsensical, but when they categorize in this way, if you ask a hundred people, is that sound spiky or smooth?

40:29they'll answer pretty consistently okay so it's like the the the connection between um feeling and shape and yeah yeah yeah oh yeah it's all connections of the senses you know um have you have you watched have you watched that movie a problemista yeah i haven't even heard of oh my god i can't stop i can't stop thinking about it what is it the reason why i bring it up is because he has also a standup show and he, I think it's called, I'm going to, I'm going to butcher this. I'm really bad at remembering certain things like, but it's about shapes, but basically it's Julio Torres, but the movie is autobiographical and he's an, he's an artist, but did you see everything everywhere all at once?

41:20Yeah. Okay. So do you know that the, the perspective on that just kind of like a very visual like adh person adhd person like making a film and how they perceive the world and like how you're making me think about because he in in the show that he has also called fat there's like three things that he has out there's like the stand-up and then there's phantasmas or phantasma but he does this whole bit about the letter he started he does this whole bit about the letter q he does this whole bit about the alphabet and like their personalities okay like yeah it's so i'm just it's so in between like how he is picking up on senses and how things are explained and like how a sound would look visually like the way that everything you're saying is very much like how this person's brain works to me but but Q, it was so good.

42:18The Q part. He just, they, I don't want to give anything away. And I'm going to, I'm going to butcher it and do a horrible job. So I don't want to like ruin it, but just, yeah, I'll try to find it. I did an episode and I think a talk once about how, because that the personalities with letters or numbers is a recognized type of synesthesia. Yes. It's one, I think it's one of the only ones that I genuinely have. And I did a talk about, not a talk about it, but I mentioned it in a talk as like an example of something, as a joke of like, I got an advanced math later. Like if I had as much time as I, and I'm not good at it.

42:57I always talk about math and numbers are like in the back room of my brain. I can get them, but it's like, I have to, like, it's not easy. um and so but especially like times tables were a nightmare because the timed times tables i would be like uh that all the numbers had personalities they genuinely genuinely do and so i'd be literally find myself thinking about like oh seven and four yes oh man they're in the same room don't go there good don't get them don't get those two together don't get them started but why is why is eight like just so reliable and like like a big bear hug like i feel like eight would give you like a bear hug yeah exactly that's it's yeah the smooth whole like yeah yeah wholeness times two that's why it's two circles like come on um i i totally agree

44:07I want to go back to something, but it's escaping me now. We are so far out on a limb right now. We are so out. It makes me very happy. It makes me very, oh, okay. It's the hero's journey thing. It makes me very happy because it gets, it's right what we're talking about, which is this thing of, you know, putting yourself into the work in a way that it's not forced, getting out of your, out of your way. And I feel like the, the hero's journey thing, I just wanted to add one little bit was instead of worrying about whether you're at the, at home and yourself, or are you currently on a journey out trying to be something else?

44:49I think looking back in the moment I could never know which one I was in. No way. No way. But you could always be trying to make progress towards yourself. And sometimes that progress looked like getting away. And sometimes it actually like was returning. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, 100%. I feel like every time I, I, um, make art, like I did this quick little zine to get like a sense of satisfaction. I can't, I can't say enough about zines. I will talk about them all day and the power of like, but I did the, I end it with, um, I make things so that, so I can know myself and like, just the idea of getting lost in your work to be found.

45:34And it sounds corny or whatever, but it's just kind of like, that's kind of what I do like over and over again, like a lot of people and, um, just, it's weird. It's like, I know myself, but then I also kind of don't, you know, I, I, of course I know myself, but then I'm like, well, I don't know who this fucking person is. Honestly, I, I, I, I do. And I don't. And I, and I'm becoming more at peace with that. It used to make me feel uncomfortable and like, think that there was something wrong with me because of that. and then now the older I get and I think there's more conversations centered around the like normalizing that especially as a creative person which I love yeah um I feel like I'm yeah I'm okay with that and it's I think it's honestly helped me become more of myself by now I feel like this is so meta, but I've, I feel like I've become more myself by being okay with sort of knowing who I am and not knowing.

46:43Yeah. That hurt my brain. I totally, I totally relate. And I, and I think that the, I genuinely think that, um, that, that that's really what the zine is about. There's two pieces for me that really that I wanted to talk about. One was that there's a lot of like, there's a lot about image in there. I think, for instance, this notion of, can you be a horse girl if you don't own a horse? and it reminded me of like how many albums do you have to have memorized to wear the t-shirt of the band yeah you know and what does it and in that right there is like a you can't trust your identity you can't trust that you love this thing because of how other people may criticize you well and then also it sort of becomes like this pissing contest like well i like horses more like I was doing when I was creating the zine I was like do I love them enough like I know I love them and they're part of like the fiber of my being like I swear to God when I look at horses I see myself and I know that sounds so weird to say thank you for saying that I can't believe that I just said that out loud oh my the podcast just got 10 times better because you said that But that's a weird.

48:14Keep talking about that, please. It's just a weird thing to say. It's so funny and great. But I think because when you love something so much when you're a kid, you just project so much on the thing that you love. Like the thing you love sort of becomes your home. And I think, too, I'm sort of I'm glad I didn't own a horse or like because I think the idea of it became more important to me than the thing itself. Like I lived in the idea of the thing and that became my home when things didn't feel safe or I wasn't comfortable. um and i think that's what i want to clear the air about about this little zine because i think it's easy to sort of write it off like oh pink and purple and horses well yeah and i want to be like oh no hold on a minute because it really is so and the people that get it they get it and i so i can't tell you how much i appreciate you getting it it makes me feel really good and seen And I've just enjoyed so much the DMs and when we're tabling at events, people will just look at it and I see this sea change on their face of just this shift.

49:40And I'm like, and then we just like have these sweaty, intense conversations about like, and it just, it's, it feels like so galvanizing to me. Like, I feel like, okay, I'm not a joiner and I'm, I've never been a club person, but like, whatever this is, I'm in, like, this feels so real and good to me. And, and again, it's, it's not, it's about horses, but it's not, it's like a deeper. thing. It's like a mentality, I guess, like a nerdy, like, um, because I don't think it was like, I think horses are sort of perceived as feminine, but they're, I don't know how to explain it, but they're like really strong.

50:28They're really strong and they're really vulnerable, but they're also very vulnerable, you know, and they break something in a certain way. You know, there's that cliche, like, Oh, I gotta put her down. You know, they are hard workers but they're also like really free there's just a lot about them as an animal that like i mean i think there's a lot of people in the world that animals are just so great like animals in general are just so they're like everyday magic to me like they're so wonderful they're amazing i love them so much and so yeah i think part of it is that too but I'm going to stop talking now because I could just, I could just go on and on.

51:08You have the floor if you, if you want to keep going. But it's, I feel like words are just going to start coming out of my mouth and it's going to be like mushy. You know what's so good though? Like go, well, you can, I like keep, do you have more? I think that's it for now. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, we'll see. You know, if you change your mind, take a little, take a little break. You talk now. Okay. I feel like I could do a whole series on animals. I just had a conversation with Julian Glander and we were talking a lot about ducks cause he has pet ducks. And the first time I talked to him, we did like a pre-talk and I was like geeking out about animals and my wife had listened to it and was like laughing at me.

51:51And she's like, you're like a five-year-old kid of like animals, man. And you just did. No, for real. Okay. I have to show you something and I don't want to make, I don't want to make too much noise. Okay. But like, this might be a little bit before your time, but I got this. This was like pre-internet. It's called Illustrated Wildlife Treasury. I don't think I've seen that. It looks great. I love the box. You would sign up for it. And then every month you would get a pack of cards. Oh, look, of course I pull out a donkey. you would get a pack of cards with a picture and like stats on the animal and then like coloring like you would get stuff and it was like the coolest thing ever to me it doesn't look very cool it's like old school subscription box totally totally that's really cool yeah and you got the collecting you got the box that you would collect and um but i just i loved it and like i would watch you know, National Geographic.

52:57Now I cannot watch any of that. It makes me too sad. Too violent? I can't. Yeah. There's a lot of bad news around animals too, just generally. I can't handle it. Being a wild animal is so hard. Like it's so hard. Like we think we have problems. I do feel that. We think we have problems. It's so funny to hear you say that. Those two things, hearing you say it is so funny because it's externalizing feelings and thoughts that I have that I'm, you know, like one of the, I, okay. The only way I can explain what I mean is I heard a comedian on a podcast talking about how such a huge part of knowing what your material is, is just being around other comics that are good at what they do because your best stuff is stuff that you're so close to that you can't even see what's funny about it.

53:48Totally. Totally. Totally. You saying how hard it is to be a wild animal and you, and you said it like you've done it. That right there. I think this all the time. I'm like looking at animals thinking, shit, God, your life is hard. What do you think about it? I learned this. I didn't think about that. No, it's true. It's like, I totally, I'm so glad you appreciate that. Glad I don't have to be a squirrel today. No, I was just going to say, like, did you hear that thing about how squirrels don't even find, like they find like 30 % of the nuts they bury or something, something, something so disappointing.

54:28A terrible stat. Yeah. Can you imagine? Like you're just literally spending all your time. I mean, it's just kind of like thrown out 70 % of your groceries, which, you know, basically I'm dying. Oh my God. Go ahead. No, nothing. I'm good. Okay. So I was going to say about the horse thing, I was thinking about, you know, I'm so passionate about getting every creator writing because I think it is the key. I'm sorry. I'm crying, dude. I'm like trying to hold in my laughter. I'm just thinking about these squirrels now and I hate them so much sometimes because they're such jerks in our backyard. But now I feel so sad.

55:24I'm sorry. All right. Hold on. No, don't please. You don't need to move on. Let's just enjoy it. I just, I had to let that little bit extra. It was like I was holding it in because I wanted to keep up, but I just. I just can't. I can't. It's hilarious. Don't you feel it's so you saying that just made me realize how often I'm thinking that, which I know is not. I don't think comment. People should comment about this because I want to know, do other people think that? Oh, I know. No, no, they do. I am. I am 100 percent certain that they do. I would put money on it because I think a lot of creatives love animals and also just have so much empathy for like every living thing.

56:15Yeah, me too. I know. Even non-living things. That's the thing. I have the same thing. Okay, please. Now I'm going to worry about my drinking cup over here. I know, exactly. Like you're neglecting it. You haven't used it in an hour. Here, let me take a sip. Now it's feeling better about its purpose. There was one the other day where Sophie and I were dropping off something. I don't know if it was like something at Goodwill or something. And I just caught her like grieving for it. And I was like, it's not alive. You don't have to do that. But I can feel like that too sometimes. We project. We project.

56:57But that's the cool thing. I mean, that's the cool thing about, that's exactly what I was going to say about the horse thing is the projecting element is where the symbolism comes from. That is, that right there is the juicy part. And what I was, you know, getting into when I started getting serious again was this. So I'm serious. Was that I'm always encouraging creative people to write, myself included. it's really hard for me to get myself to write, but I, I write pretty frequently. But, um, even so when I really get into the groove of writing, I'm like, Oh, I haven't done this in a long time.

57:38Why did I not get there? And one of the encouragements I have, because I think, um, a lot of creative people, if you don't consider yourself a writer, which is most creative, some, So obviously there are writers, but then like musicians, actors were so in the abstraction in the image and the feeling of it, that the specificity, it's similar to what I think you're saying about like the label, like, like, it feels difficult to do that. Yeah, it does. And I think I so agree with what you're saying as far as like, I mean, calling, I was in a band for six years and I would never call myself a musician.

58:22Yeah. I didn't know that. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. And I still wouldn't. I learned like by myself and I don't read music. I would play by ear and whatever. That doesn't disqualify you. Again, you're going right back to that thing of I'm not a horse girl because I didn't own a horse. I know. It's stupid. I mean, I just – maybe somebody else could say I was, but I just – it's just not something I'm – especially – I don't know how – like musicians to me, like the people that could like drink like a bottle of vodka and then go up on the – not that that's a good idea. but just like pure well like there's people that are so they don't they don't forget notes they just like like we saw vampire weekend uh like a month ago and at the end of the the encore they got back up on stage and this is a band that i think people either love or hate i'm like i've like they're uh i was a fan from the beginning i haven't listened to their new album but Their new album is so good.

59:27The Modern Vampires is like one of my all-time favorite. Yes. It's a go-to. And like, yeah, the first two. And then this one is such a – I have to listen to it. Such a kind of throwback to that, but like mixed with like new stuff. Yeah. But anyway, long story short, like he – they got back up on stage. And, you know, this band is like perceived as like indie kind of like cool guy, blah, blah, blah. But if you really appreciate them, you know that's not really who they are. Yeah. Like fratty or whatever. But they got up and they were like, okay, we're taking requests from literally anyone would raise their hand or like put their phone up.

1:00:04And they were doing sweet Carol. They were doing all the annoying wedding songs and like joking. And like they were trying to just play the first couple bars of it and laughing. They would stop in the middle. And every time they did it at the end, they go, apologies to Stevie Wonder. Apologies to blah, blah, blah. And it was so great. But my husband and I were just like just blown away by their musicianship and how good you have to be to just do that in front of a zillion people and like not even maybe know the song that much, but just kind of pick up on the essence of it and then just rip it out like right there in real time.

1:00:41So I guess that's why I'm like, no, I'm not a musician. But I think, you know, just I honestly feel like being a musician can mean so many different things. And there are people that are performing musicians. And then there are people that are recording musicians that I know people that have written some of my favorite songs of all time that have a hard time learning their own songs to play in front of people. Like, oh, see, I'm the opposite. I feel like we, we always wrote our own. And yeah, it's like, I don't call myself a writer per se, but I wrote little pop songs with my friends and I wrote, I've been writing all my life.

1:01:18and I've written 2 ,500 Instagram posts. That makes me up. You put that in your resume. I think I'm saying that number just because it was something I said to myself to go, will you shut up about this imposter syndrome? Like you've written a lot of stuff over the years, including that, which can be maybe valued or not valued by other people. But it was my time and it was my sincere thoughts. So I had to put it in there for my own personal resume to kind of boost myself up to be like, you can do this, you know, like you've been doing it. And I think that there's something, I think we could have a looser relationship with the labels and the packaging.

1:02:10because I think the artists that do really well, if you think about, I was, you know, just to take Vampire Weekend, for example, they, when they, I think a lot about the mismatch thing. Like, so a lot of pop or like mainstream stuff, the packaging and the essence of it are the same. So it's like, what you see is what you get. There's a lot of alternative stuff is like, what you see is the opposite of what you're going to get. And so my example I always say is The Cure, but The Cure sounds like it's dancing, but it's actually really sad. Or Flaming Lips sounds like drug music. He didn't do drugs like most of his life and was almost anti-drugs in religion.

1:02:55And so, but that's interesting. And the same goes for Vampire Weekend where they're doing this like, oh, we're like frat guys, but they're doing, the label is they're doing it for a different reason. and they're using the symbolism of it to say something you know yes yeah yes and so anyway it's like i guess prep school i don't know i i feel like well yeah when i listen to their music they're influenced by so many different genres and and then i learned like a weird fact fun fact the ezra guy the lead singer yeah he's like part uh they're not married but rashida jones is his boo i'm like what i'm like that's cool yeah pretty wild i love learning weird i had you know just to brag i had rostam on the show he was one of the only musicians i remember that i've i was like one of the coolest things that ever happened to me um oh yeah that's right so anyway so i am a fan big fan uh but i yeah i the thing that i would He died.

1:03:54the thing I've been trying to tell you and I can't get it out is the horses what I was going to say was that I just blabbed in 10 different directions. And I was going to say that when I encourage, you know, people that don't see them, creatives that don't see them are intimidated by writing is start with the symbols and then trust yourself that there is meaning behind that. And that's, as you make it, you find it. And it seems like you had a lot of realizations of like, what are horses about for you? Yeah. I mean, it kind of doing this, I can't even say how cathartic it was about just like healing.

1:04:45You know, you're, we're, we're all basically kids still. We're the same people inside that we were. We have, we're not, no, I don't want to say the same. We have all of those versions inside of us at all times. I feel like. True. But like, yeah, I just learned a lot about myself and just, okay, well, what is it about these creatures that has just compelled me all these years and sort of kept this little flicker going in me, this little spark that made me feel like when I was looking at them, thinking about them, drawing them, that I felt like myself. And the writing thing, I just want to say one quick thing about like Linda Barry and Anne Lamott, like Bird by Bird and Linda Barry, like making comics, those two books.

1:05:44I can't say enough about how both of these artists talk about that. It's just our human right as people, like as human beings to write and make pictures and that that should not be reserved for the elite or the special or the create. Like I think everyone is creative. I honestly do. I believe that with, with every fiber of my being and that it's just our right to do that and express ourselves, whether we're doing it just for ourselves or, you know, as a living, whatever, it's like a healthy part of being a human being. And so that really just kind of gave me permission to, well, I'm just exercising my right as a human being.

1:06:29Like I'm a cave woman right now, and I'm making marks on the wall. I'm drawing my pictures and I'm just very, you know, I had to to strip it down that to that really baseline, like I'm doing this. And it's like, it's like, I'm doing this because people have been doing this for as long as we've existed. So it's okay. I can do it. Yeah. And that really, really, really helped me. Um, yeah. I love that thing. And that's exactly what I needed to hear when I first started doing anything related to writing was trust that it's not random. the things that you're drawn to, the things that light you up. There is, it's speaking.

1:07:22If you're feeling it viscerally, it's because it's speaking a language that's going beyond words. It's not because you couldn't put words to it. You can, that's the writing. You will be able to put words to it, but it'll be work. But there's so much, there will be, it's that, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words, whatever it is. It's find those images, find the, it's like the archetype thing of a horse. There was something about it that was supercharged for you. If like you talking about looking at horses and being like, man, yeah, like that's so funny. Yeah. That's look at me go. Like it's so good.

1:08:08And it's so honest. Like I, it really, like inspires me to think about it because I'm like, well, what? And I did. And that was the, the CTA, the call to adventure, the thing to do something with the conversation we're having. The one I came up with other than like, what would your past self be disappointed in? But the, but the other one was what were the archetypes from childhood that you obsessed over? And I, and I wanted to note that it took me a minute to think about this, um, to kind of for anything to come up. And then a few things were coming up too for me were superheroes. I was obsessed with superheroes, obsessed with Marvel.

1:08:53I, and, and also I was really obsessed with, I, I wish I would have kept a little bit more. I've still seen a lot of Marvel, but I wish I would have kept some of that passion because a bunch of my favorite ones were turned into movies that nobody cared about when I was a kid. Like, so Deadpool and Black Panther and those two in particular, I was like, I didn't know much about them. I just had like a card with them and like a, like a toy. I had one Deadpool toy and I was like, these guys are freaking sweet. They're the B side of superheroes. You know what I mean? Very much so. Yeah. They're not like, uh, it's not, they're a little more nuanced, nuanced.

1:09:33You know, they like to say in every industry, it doesn't, it doesn't sell whatever but i do think people are a little consumers are a little more sophisticated than people like to give them credit for and and and you know i want to ask you so many questions like what what what it was about superheroes that like because there's so many different things about a thing and it's like what aspects it was that like that they were saving people was it the outfits did you just want to wear spandex andy like I probably did. Honestly, the more, the more slick that they looked, I like Spider-Man, Deadpool, all the, and Black Panther.

1:10:14What I liked about them was that they were so like cool, slick. There was no like frills. Like I just, I don't know. It was just bad-ass. And then, but I, as I was thinking about this, uh, I thought it's probably something about the neurotypical neurodivergent thing. I'm like, I'm weird. And maybe it's a superpower. Maybe it's a good thing that I'm a weirdo and I go to the school for mutants. Like that's probably what I was thinking. Like that, I need to go to that school. And then the other one is basically the same that came up later because I forgot about it, which is so, that's what's so good about this.

1:10:48The same thing happened to me. Like when you were, as you started pulling that thread, you're like, oh shit, that was like a thing. It was there. Like aliens was another one. Like the nineties aliens. I had like a sticker collection of these nineties alien stickers that I got every time I went to Pizza Hut. and there was this like certain line we were talking about pizza the other day it's gone it was legendary it's like not a thing anymore but aliens are the same aliens i mean it's the restaurant's gone not the actual it's still around but so when you say 90s when you say 90s aliens do you mean like the movie alien or just like 90s i mean like aliens in general like any alien that was put out in the 90s.

1:11:31People that are like listening to it on the podcast. I don't know if the video will ever see the light of day, but that alien, the green alien head. The Roswell alien. Yeah, like that, like the images around it. X-Files. Again, neurodivergent. That's a funny thing. I used to say, I thought my parents were aliens, my dad and my stepmom. That's hilarious. There's a kid's book. There's a kid's book right there. I really thought this, I didn't, I didn't think this, but I was like, I'm not going to rule out the possibility because it, it's not impossible. I thought they have a device where when I get out of bed, there's just like an, they have super technology where they can just instantly transform back while they're watching TV.

1:12:14So I'll never see them. But, but I, I thought that the funny part about that is that's a very common, not that exact version, but that feeling of being an alien is a very common thing in autism and ADHD and people. Cause I literally feel like an alien. People say it. I say that when I go pick up my kid from school, I go, here I go. I'm putting on my human suit. I'm going to go be a mom and pick up my kid and go, hello. And I literally feel outside of my body like i'm like yeah and it makes me want to do something weird just to like get it out like yeah i'm a fucking weirdo i'm picking up my kid but like i know it's normal but i'm telling you i would yeah i did my my skin's flapping off oh there's green let me cover oh yes did you ever watch did you remember that show v uh sounds familiar what is that i can't oh my god it was a it was a show about aliens and i loved it i don't know and it was like it was like aliens were invading the earth the theme song was so dope too it's like whoa whoa whoa no wait that's x-files never mind that's x-files wrong alien show but like they were invading the earth but they they would like like penetrating earth in like a very like sneaky way and some of them would have like human suits and then it would start like flapping off and like they were snake they were like snake people i love snakes too by the way that was a huge one i gotta i gotta find this and i'll find the trailer and send it to you because i don't think i know that um uh the last thing i want to tell you was my favorite part of the book or the zine by the way my first kids book started as zine too and I think zines are the freaking key to I cannot unlock your creativity I honestly cannot like say it enough like I completely agree with that and like I just feel like they're kind of medium that I think if you're in the commercial art industry you're sort of conditioned to make this like product.

1:14:28But as a creative person, it kind of goes against that. And if you're really wanting to hone like writing and illustrating, or just like exploring an idea that doesn't live in like one moment, I can't, I just can't say enough about them. They've just been such a game changer for me. I collect them. I, I tell people about them that don't know about them. I, I was like a fangirl of them for a long time. And I thought I sort of fell outside of it. Like, oh, I'm not, I'm not cool enough to make a zine. And I also just don't know what I would say. Like, I just didn't have that part of my creative brain developed yet.

1:15:06And so I was just like a fan. I think I bought a book. It was like Todd, Mark Todd and like Esther Pearl Watson had the zine called Unlovable. And then Mark Todd had this book, What You Mean? What's a zine? And I was like, someday I'll make my own. I don't think. And then I would just like buy it. And then I would just buy them and then yeah it was like a couple years ago i was like girl you love zines you want to write and illustrate you need to this is the key yes and i think i remember rebecca green like i didn't know that your book was a zine first i didn't know that well it's a different book but it was the first one that i ever it unlocked writing for me but go ahead yeah no that's exactly just she had that rebecca green oh how to make friends with a ghost i think her that was a Oh, really?

1:15:54Yeah. It just, it like kind of a light bulb went off and I was like, just do that. If you do that, like things are going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen, but something's going to happen. If you just make your own, just make it and get your ideas out there. To me, that is the key. I just did a thing on a past episode where the call to adventure was about like quit pitching stuff. Like for me, if I'm making a pitch, what I'm making is a pitch. I'm not making a book. I'm not making a good book idea. I'm thinking about what's a good pitch. And so you're selling, you're selling and you're, you're selling about them.

1:16:32And that's, that's why I did all these pitches and it didn't work. And I thought if I make it a zine, then I'm actually making the thing that I want to make. Now I'm in the energy of the real thing. And it just, yeah, it's, it's really. Take us to church. Take us to church. Like, it's just like, that is, that is exactly why I was like, I'm not pitching this. I don't want to have this be a half thing. And it's also totally what you just said. Whenever I've tried to pitch things, it just messes me up. And not that there are a lot of creative people that are so good at walking that line and pitching and it becomes a thing.

1:17:15And I just don't know if that's, I haven't acquired that skill yet. You can also pitch after the fact. You can pitch later. That's the other thing. Well, that's the thing. Yeah. Just make it, make it without the pressure of pitching and see how that feels. Cause I honestly was like, well, I would like to make a book of this, but let me make the zine first and see if I enjoyed even making the zine. And then I can go from there. Because again, I think we like to glamorize and like put things on a pedestal. Like I want to write an illustrated children's book or I want to do this and do that. And then we actually, that is one bit of unsolicited advice right now as someone who's been making, you know, art for a living for over 20 years.

1:17:59It sounds, I feel like crazy saying that out of my mouth, but like before you put something on a pedestal, like just do it first and make sure you even like, like doing it. it. Like just do the thing. I heard Jack Black on a podcast say this, and I'm sure maybe I've heard this somewhere else. Yeah. He's a major hero of mine, but I love him. The way he said it was so perfect that I thought this is a thing that I want to remember for the rest of my life and embody. And it was what you just said, which is he said, don't think about what you want to be. so don't think about i want to be an actor i want to be a children's bookmaker i want to be this that and that other think about what you want to actually do yeah how does it look what do you want to do and then do that and that's what the zine unlocks is do it you want to tell stories for kids do it you can do it there's nothing stopping you from doing there really isn't like i just listened to us that working it out with mike berbilla yeah it's probably my favorite show I was.

1:19:09Yeah. Did you listen to the Steven Merchant one? Yep. When he, and I feel like when I say this, it's going to sound mean, but he, at the end he was like, cause he just has like a, like a musicality to his voice. And I'm like, nasally, just do it. Just fucking do it. But like, he, he was like, there's no, he said, I know people work all day and it's really hard. It's hard to squeeze in things, but if you really want to do something, you will find a way and you have to stop using excuses. He was like, just don't just do it. And again, see, it sounded so mean, but I thought about that and I was like, well, that's, that is so true, but why can't so many of us figure that out?

1:19:57Like why? And I thought about it. And I think what something I was able to finally do, I was able to do the zine finally, because I realized the problem for me was like, I want to do too many things. And you talk about this a lot on your podcast, like honoring seasons. For me, it's like, I want to do a lot of different things and I have this list, but I thought about it and I was like, okay, I think for me, what helped is like, I want to be respectful of all the things I want to do. And I want to pick the thing I want to do the most and I want to respect it and honor it. And if I'm talking at a party and I'm like, I want to do this, but I can't.

1:20:43And I'm saying it over and over again, after a certain point, I don't even want to hear myself saying it. It feels disrespectful and it sucks. And I feel like I want to respect. If I love this thing as much as I say I do, then respect it and honor it and know your limitations and know you can't learn this, this, and this at the same time. You have to take this one thing and you have to take a risk and spend time on that one thing and you have to invest in it. And that's respect. And so for me, that got me to, there's no excuse, but there, there is an excuse if you don't understand what's getting in your way and understand that you're, for me, it was like, I need to, I need to be more respectful.

1:21:31That helped me, my mental cue of like, that triggered me. I was like, Ooh, I don't, I don't like being disrespectful to anything. And so for me, I was like, Ooh, I am by doing this over and over again and being stuck in this, I am not, I'm not respecting this thing that I say I love so much, to this thing that I want to do. So I just said the same thing three different ways, like over and over again just now, but you know what I mean? That's my whole podcast. I think I just hear myself saying it and I'm just like, yes, keep doing that. Don't stop though. Yeah. I like the angles because I think it helps it unlock and make sense.

1:22:11Cause sometimes those, those things that really do unlock something, it's hard to get at what, what is it? Yeah. But I, I totally, I totally. The excuses are, they're excuses are just sort of the covering of what is underneath that's getting in the way. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? 100%. Yeah. It's a set. Yeah. You have to get past that. Um, the, yeah, the, the conscious level to the subconscious level of like, what's actually going on there. But the, uh, you know, the thing that you talked about with seasons, that's, there's a huge problem for me always. so I have figured it out momentarily.

1:22:49It's one of the reasons I talk about it on the show is because sometimes I've managed to figure it out, but it's a lifelong problem. And the way I used to think about getting over it was I used to think, okay, I've got all of these, all this creative food to cook. I want to make all of these dishes, which am I going to put in the frying pan and which am I going to throw in the trash? Those are the two options. It's the only options. And And the metaphor that helped me figure it out was, no, some are going to go on the back burner. Some are going to go in the crock pot. But the front burner, I can only have, there's only one front burner.

1:23:24I love that metaphor so much. And it really helps me. And it also helped me to understand, you know, learning tons about ADHD, learning that there's an object permanence thing issue. So like out of sight, out of mind. So, and it happens at time. i'm not saying you but um but that there's a thing of there's only two times there's all there's only now or never that's it there's only now or never so if i'm not doing all of these things now i'm never doing any of them and i know it's true helps it's it's how it's how yeah i mean god i was tested for it they said i didn't have it but they were like on paper they're talking with you you have it, but like, I think I'm just like high, like I'm just used to functioning.

1:24:11One of the things they say about it is both all neurodivergences, um, the further you go in your life, the harder it is to test for it because you adapt, you have all these adaptations. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Everything, everything, everything you've said. And you, you told me. We've talked about it. I didn't. Yeah. You're like, I don't go around telling people that you're one of the only people I've said have you ever taught ever thought about that because you do have the a lot of the adhd energy it made me feel better um yeah it's not appropriate people shouldn't do that so i'm sorry i don't want to derail no no no i it you're we're friends and you were like very uh respectful about it and it wasn't you know but and i feel like i'm derailing i'm i am hearing what you're saying but you know what?

1:25:05See, I have ADHD. I'm sorry. It's part of the theme. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just going to say that. Oh my God. I was just going to say that I wanted to make sure I said this, that my favorite part of the zine and it's the, so tons of really funny things. I love the whole thing with the past you, current you, all of that was very powerful. It also made me think like, oh man, there's like cinematic things that you can do on a page that I never let myself do. But these are the ways I think, like, I, I feel like the stories I like and the ones that kind of, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

1:25:44We don't have time for that. I'm going to say this. I was going to say, like, I, you know, I think a lot of the things that I, the kind of things I want to do are like things like, um, that happened in like Bluey is a good example. I don't know if your kid's probably too old i need to see this show because everyone keeps talking about it it's amazing it's great and it's it's kind of like for a long time in picture books i was like well i can't tell the stories i want to tell because people don't tell these kind of stories in picture books and then bluey did that basically in in kids media and i was like oh i can do it i just have to figure out how you're doing a cinematic thing in the zine i don't know what you're talking about What page?

1:26:26No, just, no, no. I'm going to tell you a specific page. But the part where your 10-year-old self builds this time machine, goes to see future you, everything about the scenes, and it's also silent, it just feels like this would happen in a movie. I did that on purpose. I did that because I am a movie nerd. I'm bad at remembering directors, and I'm not an asshole film lover. like actually, but I really appreciate the medium, like, you know, like TV, really well done TV shows. Like my partner and I watch a lot of TV and I just, I love the parts in a movie. Now I understand what you're saying. The parts where it felt like dialogue was going to be, take away from the feeling that I wanted people to feel.

1:27:21And I don't, it was weird. It was like right away, I knew that was what I wanted to do because I started getting into the dialogue and I was like, I don't like the way this is. And that was the other thing. I'm like, I was really proud of myself. I feel like I've grown as like a storyteller because I'm knowing now like, oh my God, like I have grown, I've learned because right away I wanted to do that. But I don't think like two years ago, I would have not even known how to like deal with that. I recognize that feeling like that, that thing of the more stuff I make in a certain direction, the more second nature it becomes.

1:27:58Yeah. It was like, oh, I can't have any, I don't want any dialogue in this because I really want it to go silent and just you to read the body language and know that they met. but you don't really, you don't necessarily need to know. I wanted there to be mystery because when you get into the specifics, it just takes out the magic of the moment. So yeah, that was, that was kind of fun to do. And I'm so glad that you picked up on that. That's so great. Thank you. Horse Girl could be a movie. I like, I think there's something there. I think there's something there. So I love that. And that was really inspiring me.

1:28:35But my favorite thing in the, in the zine though was something that at first I couldn't even put my finger on. It's one of those things where you think about, you start, it's, that's why I like like analysis of your own work and others, because you have to go from the visceral thing, just like with the horses, go from the visceral thing, then like pull at it till you like, oh, now there's like meat to it. Like I get like this thing. And so as I was thinking about like, what do I want to like, what do I want to mention? And I thought the thing I think about over and over is there's a page that is so funny and embarrassing and vulnerable and it, and I feel it.

1:29:19And it's when the kids are pretending to be your past you is pretending to be a horse. Yeah. I'm just like, I can't, it's so like, you could easily scroll past that and not really just not think about it. Like we're not pick up on it, but there's something about you. And I was, I pretended, I think I told you this. I played pretend way later than what is normal. I'm telling you. And then even I pretended in my head all the way this, I'll just defend myself all the way to college only to get myself to sleep. So at night I would go to sleep and I was like, I can't sleep. And I'd be like, all right, I'm going to come up with this whole thing.

1:30:00And I was just basically pretending. and so but i pretend i had a younger brother inside i think the inside of your brain should be a movie about that oh man you know what that okay i know this is man we're not doing a good job of staying on track but and i that's fine but everything everywhere all at once when i watched that i thought i told sophie i was like and i didn't know he was adhd one of the guys is adhd i didn't know that but i said this is what it feels like this is what it feels like I literally feel like this where I – there's a lyric. I'm doing a – this is heightened ADHD because as soon as we start talking about it, it starts to like I'm out of control with it.

1:30:47Oh, I know. Are we both having a manic episode? I think so. It happens. I think so, yeah. Okay, it's okay. Let's breathe. But that thing of, like, I live a lot through the lens of, like, which am I in the best timeline? Like, am I in the best version of myself? Like, I think about that is kind of a thing that I, like, live all the time. And it's a very, it's a weight. I, you know what? I feel that too, but I never really verbalized it like that. but I feel like I'm a lot of time living in like the troll timeline, the troll version of my timeline, like just grunting through shit. You know what I mean?

1:31:33Like, and I don't want to be, I want to be in the unicorn timeline, but I, and I, and I check myself. I'm like, you are not, you're, you're giving off troll energy like so hard right now and you need to like, like art troll, like greasy art troll. I don't remember when I washed my hair and I got a lot of, a lot to do. And I feel that a lot. And I, and it feels, it doesn't feel very kind. I think honestly, it doesn't feel very like we're doing our best. Yeah. We're trying. And, and, and I think even in our worst version of our timeline selves, I think we're still probably a lot cooler and more fun and caring than other people in their best timeline.

1:32:17I don't know. Yeah. I'm just throwing that out there. I mean, you're just a very warm – I just feel like even on a bad day, you're still pretty great. So I wouldn't – yeah. Same to you. But I wanted to say that. I want to say I love that page. It captured that. And it really captures that thing of you're just starting to get self-conscious about should I be pretending? And that's really sad. It's really sad. There's a lot of really – 10 is like that age. sure. It just, it feels like there's so many stories in it from a 10. That was the other thing I want to share really quick about writing and just whatever, whoever's listening to this and they're trying to write or whatever, like we're trying that word.

1:33:02I've just heard the other day, like, don't say you're trying just people who are writing, exploring their voice. I want to say that it's going to look so different for everyone. And that what we perceive as writing. It's just like, forget about all that, like fucking forget it. And what helped me so much was thinking about how my 10 year old would write. Like that helped me sort of get my voice like, because I'm a grown, I'm like a 50 year old, I'm like older than middle age at this point. and I'm writing, but I'm like a weirdo little kid inside. But when it's coming out, it doesn't match. But helping me channel my 10 year old, it just like smoothed out.

1:33:53I could relax. And if I was starting to write something that was like overcomplicated, I would be like, well, what would your 10 year old say? What would you, how would your 10 year old think of that? And it It just helped. And whether it's accurate, like, oh, actually a 10 year old really doesn't think like that. But I'm like, well, this 10 year old does. So whatever. It works. It just really helped me. And so if you think about maybe some kind of device that you can channel that will get you to a creative place that feels more comfortable and less like strained or like you're trying too hard or or you need to like temper a part of yourself to just kind of not get lost in the woods.

1:34:36yeah does that make sense like um yeah that helped though a lot and that that's a great that's a great action to end on is like create from your 10 year old self and I think it there's the it makes sense because I think the teenage years is kind of the hero's journey of leaving yourself that's where you really start to feel like you're losing yourself you're trying to be something else you're trying to figure out how to be that um and I think that that's such a good prompt to get back into the timeless part of yourself, the part of you that maybe hasn't changed. Some of the changes are good. Some of them are bad, whatever, but that part and creating from there, like that's, I think that's really good.

1:35:20For sure. Thanks. You're so good at this. Hey, I, I'm just having a blast and I hope, you know, I'm thinking the only thing I'm thinking is man, the editing on this thing. I've just gone out of control. When I talk to somebody like you and we both have these, this energy I can get, it just riles me up and then it's, but you know, I'm trying to get comfortable with it, you know? It's okay. I, I mean, I had a really great time. I, I, um, always love talking with you and I just really appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much. And, um, yeah, I'm just really grateful.

1:36:18Massive thanks to Sarah Walsh for spending so much time with me and inspiring me and making this incredible zine, Horse Girl. Go check it out. Sarah Walsh makes things dot com. She is also on Instagram at Sarah Walsh makes things. Highly recommend going and following along with her work. It's gorgeous. It'll add some great stuff to your feed as well as your heart and soul and mind. I'm back with a creative call to adventure. The BMT, the big meaty taste. If you don't know, an Italian BMT is a sandwich at Subway. A lot of people don't know that BMT stands for big meaty taste. And I just thought that that was appropriate for what we're going to talk about here at the end, big meaty taste.

1:37:15How do you make your work have some meat? And that could be vegetarian meat, vegan meat. It could be an impossible meaty flavor that is in your creative work. But I am sold out on the idea that in order to make great creative work that resonates on deep levels enough to build a practice on, you have to make stuff that's not just fashionable or timely. You have to tap into the timelessness of archetypes and things that move you on a deeper level. And I think there's no better place to get started on that journey than going back to your childhood and finding what were the symbols that I was obsessed with?

1:38:01What were the things that I just couldn't stop thinking about? What were the stickers I collected? What were the cards I collected? go back to that time and just start making a list on all of the symbols and archetypes that you can find. And if you have a hard time thinking about like, what's an archetype? That sounds scary and weird. It is, but also it's not. The way I think about archetypes is it's what people call a thing. You know, when someone's like, oh yeah, it's a thing. That's an archetype. Horse girls were a thing, right? Like superheroes are a thing. Aliens are a thing. Those were my two that came up and I started to dive deeper into what possibly drew me in to these symbols because it wasn't just fashion.

1:38:54It wasn't just because they were timely. Like these are things that sure, they were of the time, but they spoke to me in a timeless way. They spoke to me in a deeper way where I nerded out on these things much more than my peers. Or maybe I just had a couple friends or one friend where we both were like, this thing we're freaking obsessed with, right? And then I start thinking about that beyond the noun, but beyond the superhero. What is a superhero all about? It's about being different in a positive light. What's being an alien about? Being different in an extraordinary, extraterrestrial kind of way.

1:39:33And I think it was speaking to the ways in which I felt different than everybody because of my neurodivergence. And so those are symbols that I think about and put in my work and inspire me as I go to make stuff. I think finding these personal archetypes and building your own personal symbolism and mythology is key. It's really, really hard to make art when you only think about the adjectives, when you only think about the style and the surface. But you need some big, meaty taste to sink your teeth into, and so does your audience. They need nouns. And if you go look at your favorite artists, you can probably write down nouns.

1:40:12You can write down things that, symbols that show up in their work over and over again because those symbols are things we can see. They're things we can interact with. They're things that we could literally hold in our hands. And that helps us put our hands around the work in a more literal fashion and have more to go at. So think back to your childhood. See if you can find some big meaty taste to inject into your creative work.

1:40:45Each episode of Creative Pep Talk is designed to help you maintain a consistent creative practice. If you're trying to transform your creativity from an infrequent hobby into a real discipline, sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com so that you never miss an episode. Creative Pep Talk is part of the Podglomerate Network. You can learn more at podglomerate.com. massive thanks to my team Sophie Miller for content editing and co-writing to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design and thanks to all of you for listening until next time stay pepped up

1:41:47Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end.

1:42:30I have one more thing for you. if you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you wanna figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path hand booklet and the whole process is in there and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up. But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all.