493 - Grief, Creativity, and Re-finding Your Magic with Rebecca Green

31:44So I think if you can have those things come to you and harness them and you've got, you know, there's enough in that that excites you that you sort of like have to keep that as you continue to work on it. Yeah. Cause that work can be, it can be intense, you know? And then if you have like a life event, you know, like I did it, it just is hard. Like it throws you off. Even it throws you off of the work, you know? Certainly it throws you off of that magic, but like it also just like, yeah, it's, it's, but it's worth it. Right. To keep going. And yeah, that sounded like a question. right isn't it worth i think so yeah i do think so you know it's funny because um you know the bigger projects uh the few that i would consider like these are the bigger elements of my work um a lot of them almost all of them have a similar trajectory of uh a lot of build up of like exploring and a lot of things that felt unrelated, then, oh, this thing clicks.

32:53Then there's magic. Then there's, it's exciting. And, you know, it feels like, oh, I've got it. It's right here. And then you realize that's the beginning of the project. Oh, no. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. But I will say, you know, haven't you finished a lot of projects, you know, that um that it is it is worth it and that a lot of times you know like um whether it was invisible things or right side out both those projects the the last the after the middle of the marathon where the magic's gone like that the years after that that both of them had several years like yeah two or three years where it's like the magic fire isn't right there but i'm trusting it and then once i got it to the end it's like oh thank god i did that thank god that i just i it's almost like a like a stewarding of the magic that you felt and being like no it was I know there's something there.

34:01Yeah. And I have to honor that or something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that totally makes sense to me. And these projects you're talking about and this one that I'm working on are such huge endeavors. They're years. You have to have that sort of dedication to them and trust in them enough to know that they're worth it. And I think being able to pick up on those pieces is like what – I think it's a very useful tool for creative to be able to understand how special those sensibilities are. Can you talk a little bit more about that specifically? Because when you said like pick up on those pieces or like – I don't know if you could flesh that out a tiny bit.

34:55Just I was curious. Well, I think that there's a huge sense. There's a, there's a question that I get asked a lot, certainly. And I'm sure you do too. Just like, well, who, how do you, how do you find your style? How do you find your voice? How do you find like who you are? And for me, it's those internal like sensations, whether yes, we could talk about like a story just coming to you. And that's great. And that's, but you can't like always conjure that. But like outside of that, what just like delights you or sort of makes you feel super passionate on a day to day basis, you know, with things that surround you in your house or in nature or the people that you're around or the music or whatever, like all those.

35:43And you talk about this a lot, just that taste. And I think being sensitive to those things, like there are things that I feel sensitive to where actually give you an example. Yeah. And this is not to, I love my husband so much dog on him, but we have been fixing this house together and it's like, we are speaking two different languages or I'm like, look at 10, 10 of these colors, you know, and I can just, he's like, they're all gray. Not really, but like, Like, you know, where he will listen to an album, like he's super big into music. So he's like, did you hear the production there? And I'm like, I don't, I actually wasn't.

36:20The music went past me. So there are just these sensitivities that feel so natural to us that we just, I anyway, think it's very easy to just bypass them. Well, everybody feels that way. But I don't think everybody feels that way about that specific thing that maybe you feel that way about. And when I started to sort of realize this, I actually was part, I'm part of the Art Brand Alliance. I don't know if you have heard of that. It's like a group of artists. It's like a network, but they have sort of internal social hours, but then talks. And there was, there was a thing within it called the Creative Directors Club.

37:02And we did a lot of exercises on like building our own, like if we were the creative director of our world or our creativity, we spent a lot of time like doing visualization things. And we did experiences like or exercises like if you were to plan an event, how would that feel specifically to you? And what would you do and what sense would you have and what would be the food and what would be the music and all that? those things that you pick out that seems so easy to you. And then we would all share them. And someone would be like, I want to be on the beach and I want to be drinking like pina pilates.

37:39And I'm like, I can't imagine anything worse. No, I love the beach, but you know what I mean? Like that would not jazz me up. That would be vacation. That would be like, I'm not working right now. Um, so anyway, those are the little sensitivities, you know? And what, you know, last time we chatted, you were talking about the mouse and the bee living in a cider press. Yeah, they live in a cider press. And I was thinking like, that's a great example of one of those. Because you said that offhand. And when I listened back to it, I was like, I would never think that would never occur to me. because I don't even live in a world where cider presses exist.

38:25I'm not like, honestly. Oh, man, Andy. And then I love, like, that's a great example, too, of your reaction to that was like, oh, how tragic. I'm also like, you live in Ohio in the Midwest. Don't you guys have apple orchards? We do, but it would never occur to me. And to you, it's like, you're just like, what? What are you talking about? They're so central to existence. You know, that felt like such an epiphany. And when I started these, I drew so many regular houses that they lived in. I was like, man, this does not feel special to me. And I was trying to put all these pieces together. And I don't even remember what it was.

39:05I mean, I have drawn and dreamed about cider presses for a really long time, owning them, having a cider party. I mean, it's just like that's just kind of where I came from and what I love. And that's what, um, and I think I was drawing one and then I was like, wait a minute, we could just put a door here. And then it was like, it actually took me a really, really, really long time. I felt like an architect to figure out exactly how that cider press turns into a house. Um, how the, the, the press part would have to be up enough for it to be two floors and then how I would put a wood stove in. And like, it was actually very exciting.

39:44to put that together. But anyways, yes, it's a great example of that sensibility where, you know, it's central to the story, but actually not at all. It's just like such a fun detail. That's it. You know, uh, I love this thing about, we're talking about the bigger projects in your, in your, in your path and your practice. And like, of course, uh, if you're lucky, you have a lot of smaller projects that are more fun and they're not, you know, they're not as precious or whatever, but I do, I think if I was talking to myself at 22 before I'd ever trusted any of that sensitivity long enough to get into some of that meatier stuff, I think I would say, first of all, like trust it, trust those weird, like intense feelings that you have about things like do that, like go that way.

40:33But also I would say like, and when you do, the further you go into those, the richer creativity is going to feel like these bigger projects to me. I think I'm, I'm kind of like, even it's not even about whether other people, if there's probably some of those projects that I feel this way about that aren't really quintessential to me, or maybe weren't super successful or whatever. Um, but they, the, the, the creative, uh, the richness of the experience was deeper than I thought was possible when I started out, because when I started out, I was very much like, Oh, I'm pumped about like band posters and drawings.

41:21And like, I love this scene and hand letter type and all that. And it was fun and it was cool. And I was into it, but I, but it, but it was like the style and the, and trends and stuff like that. And I just didn't think, I think I didn't realize like you talking about building this house in your mind in a cider press is just and watching how how enjoyable that is to you, because you're like, as you're saying it, you can see you're like, I'd have to. okay how do we get it in the house well the door's this size it's just like so funny but it's that's like i didn't even know that existed when i started i didn't know does that make sense yeah i mean i didn't either yeah i i didn't know that and and i think that's why i mean i feel like i don't really ever trust things that feel too good and so for a long time it felt too indulgent even to like work on that.

42:20Like it just almost feels like, like I said, this isn't serious work. So I probably shouldn't like invest my time in it. Um, it's so interesting. Well, I, I started off not in picture books, but, um, a little bit in editorial and that was so difficult for me. And then I got into picture books and still those seem to be so difficult for me. And I loved doing them. But if I look back at every single picture book, it was a struggle. Like I tried so many different attempts for those. And now I look back and I'm like, it's just a totally different feeling than what I'm working on now because it feels, well, I get to make all the decisions, which I like.

42:58I mean, I have an editor and an art director, but like, yeah, I think I didn't know, you know, maybe I do feel like part of the, I think building up and doing all those books for other people and working on projects that I didn't love early in my career has sort of built up the stamina. And I need that now to work on these books for so long. And I think that's a great part. And also when I first started, I couldn't have, I didn't interview once and I literally told people, I don't have any stories. That's why I'm an illustrator. So I'm just going to do other people. Now I'm like, this is wild.

43:33Like I don't want to do anybody else's stories right now. Cause I, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that was possible. I didn't know. And I, I'm just like, well, I'm just a nobody from the small town in the Midwest. and I'm not really like cool. And I still don't consider myself like a book person. I don't know like how to come up with stories. They're not super plot heavy. And so, yeah, I think, but you just gotta, once you like get rid of all that, I can, I don't know. I think it could be kind of simple. Yeah. And also I love what you're saying about like the snowball effect of the journey of you sticking at it.

44:13I have the same exact experience of creative stamina for longer projects built up slowly over time. I'm able to – still hard, but I'm able to do bigger things than I thought I would be able to ever. And it just happened slowly. And you also – you saying, I don't have any stories. Like just saying like you don't know what you have. That's the thing about this creative practice is as you go through it, if you stick at it, you will, you're going to find all these abilities and stories and things in you that you don't even know that you have. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. No, no. I was just going to say, I totally agree.

44:53One thing I was going to ask you about was when you're talking about this moment where these characters were having these conversations and you were kind of talking about it, it sounded really trippy in a way that was awesome and interesting. And I'm just wondering if as you, maybe you could speak to that for a minute first, because it's just really juicy and fascinating. But then also, as you've worked with the material that came out of that, have you seen where some of that may be? like when I was making really terrible music in college, a lot of times it was just like people were sending me this instrumental stuff, my friends, and I was like just making vocals and weird stuff.

45:45And it was all kind of like stream of consciousness. And almost always, by the end of the project, I was like, oh, I know what this is about. I thought it was literally random. Now I know what I was thinking about or what. And do you, I wonder if you talk a little bit about those conversations. What did it feel like? And then as you've worked on them a long time after that session and those seasons, um, have you started to figure out why these characters live in you? What are they, what are, I don't know. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about both those things. Yeah. So the, I think one thing for me is that with any project I'm doing generally like the emotion of the character is that is the top for me that is like always kind of what I'm after and I I feel like these two characters this bee and this mouse are two sides of me for sure yeah but they're also like not necessarily those two sides like have conversations but maybe they do um but I really I I love like acting I used to do theater like a really really long time ago.

46:54And for me, when I'm doing a book or especially like thinking about these characters, it's so important for me to feel that emotion of them, you know? And so Miko is like, that's the bee. She's like super fiery, like super high energy, has all these ideas, bit fickle, like could be like mad and then happy immediately. And then the bee is just, or then the mouse is, her name is Henry. And she's so like calm and sort of like put together and kind of sees things from like above perspective, you know, she's just like a little bit more wise. And I feel like those are both, that's like really two sides of me.

47:30Um, and when I'm seeing them, I'm thinking, I think I can feel a few things. One of them is humor with their situation, with their, their conversations. Cause they're very, they're very, they're a bit humorous, not like wild comedy, but they're humorous. Um, and like a sweet humor, like the ghost book is like sweet humor, you know? Um, and then there is this sort of like appreciation for life. Like they have such a small little, I mean, they live in a cider press and they're, they're tiny, but like it's snowing and that's the biggest thing in the world to them. And it's just, um, the stories are really simple.

48:16I think that for me, like you said, you know, you have all these sort of random pieces and then in the end you're like, oh, that's what that's about. I think that when I'm seeing them in the very beginning, when I, you know, like I can sort of just sense these moments, working towards the final has been a tremendous amount of cutting and editing. like I literally started writing these things as like novels but I'm like children don't really read novels and this probably isn't like the best material for like 30 year old or like you know like an older person although it's like me writing it but yeah so I had to cut down so much like I had to cut down even so much of their conversations I had to just pare back their written in graphic novel forms a whole other beast oh my god this has been so difficult um such a challenge but um um i think what's interesting is that when i sense them in the beginning and now i put them out on the paper and i cut all that down what's left of it is still that seed like it's still the i guess the relationship between them and their relationship with their like immediate world and them appreciating life which probably is just how i've always operated you know um Um, so I think that is really what has always been important to me is, is like the emotional relationship between myself and others.

49:55And, um, yeah, it, yeah. What are we going to say? I don't know. I was going to say, well, I don't know if, yeah, maybe like in the very, very, very end of it, I could come up with a different sort of reasoning or maybe like a more clear, you know. No, it sounds great. The thing that I heard in it was a big part of how I think about creative work has been influenced by the internal family systems idea, which is this idea that you're made up of all these different parts of you and it can be useful to personify these different parts and have like relationships with these parts. And I heard, um, and you know, a lot of my heroes, when I heard them talk about their work, like Charles Schultz talks about peanuts, all these different characters being different parts of himself.

50:48Um, but also the guy who plays, um, Dave goals, who plays Gonzo and he plays a bunch of other Muppets, um, talks about how each character is like a flaw, an exaggerated flaw of himself pushed to the extreme until it becomes lovable. And I thought that is such, and that's what I hear you talking about is this, you said two things, um, about how you felt about these characters, which are these parts of you, one that you can see the humor in it, which feels like a level of emotional distance that is the observer and being able to rise above your situation and kind of get a little and not take yourself too seriously.

51:34Be like, oh, it's funny. Like watch my parts doing these things. And also you said like to appreciate their world and appreciate their dynamic. And that feels like a development of self-love of like appreciating these aspects of yourself and being able to cherish them with this little bit of distance. And I think that's like super deep, man. That's so cool. Thanks. No, it's so nice talking through it. And yeah, having, I mean, I've been working on it for so long and I am a really reflective person. So I'm often thinking of these, but it's like, I've never, I've had few conversations about this aspect of it, you know, and what that means.

52:22And I think it's super insightful to sort of see it from the outside. And like you said, almost be a steward of these things that you're sort of like bringing into the world. And I, I do see myself as separate from it because, and that's how it feels when things come to you. I'm not a big, like, I don't believe that there's a muse and there's an idea and it's going to come to you or go to somebody like I, but I think that something fired in my brain that could, you know, probably have only happened in this specific brain that, But I think, yeah, I now have like the responsibility of carrying it out.

53:00And I do feel like, I don't know. Yeah. I guess the creator, but not, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Caretaker. I'm a caretaker. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the other thing I just want to hint at is you said a few times, like, the emotional relationship and it not being super plot heavy. This is something that we touched on last time was this idea that illustrators are like non-glamorous actors. And I find myself like a lot of times my wife has pointed out when I'm drawing, I'm making the face that I'm drawing. Right? Yeah. It's a weird, it's a, it's bizarre. Like you said, like you have to feel the feeling that you're putting on the page.

53:49It's very acting. And I did theater too. I think there's something very like, there is something there. And I also just wanted to highlight that there's this, there's conversations around Alice Fraser, who's going to be on my show. She's a standup comic and she wrote a book about romance novels. And I heard her talking about this, but I've heard this conversation. Oh, I've heard it in The Heroine's Journey by Gail Carragher. She also talks, she writes a lot of like romance and like relational books and how these things have been like seen as less than, than action movies or like, they're really, they're similar things.

54:40And also there's a symbolic nature to the things that are going on. And I guess I'm just getting at that, like, the illustration and the intuitive side and the relational emotional side is so rich and so, so much about what kids react to in the work and what adults react to in the work. And yet I think because it doesn't register with the, there's no translation to the logic element of the brain. You can't literally literalize it, that we sometimes belittle it or demean it when it's really just such a powerful thing. You know, hearing you work this stuff out and relate to it is just a really, it just feels really rich.

55:32Yeah, I think it's, it just, it sounds similar to those things that come so easily to us. And, you know, we value those things that, that maybe make a little bit more challenging. And so, and I think we all, I mean, we're, we're human. So like, we all have those, you know, like micro moments of like misunderstanding or joy or, you know, like that's mostly what our life is. but I think when, um, you know, I wasn't really taught how to, to write or, you know, do stories or, and so the only thing I can think of is, well, when I did learn there needed to be this clear arc and there needed to be like this problem in this climax and this, you know, and it's just so formulaic that when I started to put these stories together, I was like, well, they're not really a story.

56:18Nothing really happens. But the stories though, that I love are like coming of age things where barely anything happens except for this person like deals with, you know, like internally reacts to the world, which I don't know. So. Yes. Yeah. There's a lot of, and yeah, I think there's a lot of different definitions of what, what a story is and what it does. There's this specific arc that has a particular endpoint and inflection point. And then there are ones that have a more meandering style that circumnavigate a thing and kind of more impressionistic. And I, yeah, I think you're totally right there.

56:59One thing I wanted to come back to was when I was reading your post that where you're nestling into winter and into this new house, you talk about how, you know, I think when you haven't moved house in a long time, you don't realize that it's so uncomfortable it's really moving out of a comfort zone into a discomfort zone where there's none of your creature comforts are set up everything's undone whatever and you talked about creating those little spaces in your house where you could find a little bit of that even amongst all the discomfort um and it just made me feel like like in dreams they talk about houses or buildings as like a structure for your psyche.

57:46Like that's a symbol of, this is like the structure of your inner world. And it got, it made me think like, as you're moving from these stages and you go into a new stage of the creative process, like the book or, or your creative journey on in a larger way, where now you're a different person than you were when you started wanting to be an illustrator. Um, I wondered if you could just think of any ways in these new phases where you were finding, where you were able to set up some of those comfortable nestling spaces within the discomfort of that. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. For sure.

58:28I'm a hundred percent following you. I think so findings, those sort of comfort senses in creativity, not necessarily in a house, but yes, I think, um, I think for me, it's realizing that I don't have to love everything. And maybe I love things at different phases. Like I don't always love working in a sketchbook and sometimes I love it. And sometimes I just don't want to do it. and like just being okay with that being okay with the fact that like I don't have to do that if I want to just do one spread I can do that and I don't have to pick it up for five months just letting myself off the hook for that kind of stuff you know for me I meditate and I write every morning and that is so important to me and that is like a very grounding um I think helps me be a good human but also create creatively I think that's just such a like special place you can take anywhere.

59:16So right now I'm mostly just working on the books. And then I'm also actually illustrating a book for another author right now. And it's totally different. And that has been interesting because I did, I said, I wasn't going to do it. And then this book came along and I did it. And I think from that, I've, I'm trying to like trust, I don't know, maybe set up a system where I trust my internal instinct versus like what I think other people want for me. That's kind of a big, that's a big setup. That's kind of hard. That's not like a simple, it's not a simple one, but I guess, I guess you'd just be seeking joy.

59:58That would be the simple thing. Like what, what sounds fun right to this thing? What would like make it enjoyable for me to do? And my, my, my husband was looking at the spreads. I put these sketches together and And he came and he's like, wait, is any of this in the book? And I was like, no, that's me putting my joy in it. And he was like, it looks crazy. I love it. Like, it's awesome. It's so weird. And I was like, yeah, thanks. That's really, I was really trying. So to be weird and joyful. So kind of carrying that through, you know, you got a heavy project, but you still like, I mean, we have like rewarding jobs, you know.

1:00:34I love that because you went, you instantly went to, as you're navigating different stages, you're, the tricky part of that is determining what stays and what goes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yep. Even when you move house, you're going to, that usually you get rid of a lot of stuff too. And you think, what's carrying, what am I going to carry over into the new house? And you instantly went to the first thing you went to was the ways you were going to be open where you're like, okay, I, I, yeah, just because I used to be the person that was doing it in the sketchbook this way, doesn't mean I have to bring that to the new house.

1:01:15I can actually do it any other way I want to. And then, but you also tune into where being present with where you are in this stage and saying, but I am going to carry the, uh, the meditation and the, what was the other thing you said? Just journaling. And journaling, meditation and journaling, because that's something that actually feels right in this new season. And I think that there's, uh, you kind of went through a bunch of little things like that, where you're, you're deciding what are we throwing out and what are we bringing on? Cause you don't, you don't have to start completely fresh in the new house either.

1:01:51You can bring some of those things over. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's a, that's a really good, a way of tuning into last episode we did, we talked about listening to yourself to find like ideas. This one, I like this tuning in to your, to your emotional state, to your joy, like you said, and discerning like, okay, what needs to stay and what needs to go? that's a that's an important part of the transitional process i think yeah yeah i think that's a good it's a good analogy moving houses and stuff um and then also just like in a creative practice like you just i think we focus a lot on what am i going to do now i'm going to be efficient at this i'm going to get good at this i'm gonna you know it's always like a positive thing but what what can i obviously i have to let go of a lot of stuff and thankfully there's the silver lining and everything that happened that I'm okay letting go of like a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff.

1:02:49Um, but yeah, then you have to decide like, okay, well, what is really helping me out? What can I keep around? What, what's worth like holding onto and like continuing, you know, in this new, in this new life.

1:03:18Thanks Becca for joining me on another episode. Hope we get to speak again really soon. Can't wait to check out your books and, uh, and, and all the new projects you have sending love to you and yours. And, um, yeah, hope that, uh, you get to come back again shortly. massive thanks to Sophie Miller for editing and uh and co-producing this show massive thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for the audio and video edits as well as sound design thanks to Yoni Wolf for the soundtrack and the theme song and thanks to everybody for listening uh until we speak again stay pepped up

1:04:23Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com and you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path hand booklet and the whole process is in there. and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.

1:05:06But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.