494 - The Paradoxical Key for Creative Habits, Career Path Models & More

28:56Yeah. That's all part of it. Yeah. That's funny. um so i had a question then about the that like micro moment of sharing something like i don't know even with like you know oh i recorded this podcast now it's time for people to hear it or i made this thing now i'm gonna post it like how like what what have you kind of used to navigate those moments of transition you know i've heard seth godin talk about this where the reason he did a daily blog for years and years and still does is just making that a muscle and just getting used to that and becoming it normalizes it so that you're not you're not really overthinking it it it used to be that the debt the podcast day was like a source of anxiety it was like oh my gosh I put a bunch of thoughts out again and an illustration and whatever um and for the longest time.

29:57At first it wasn't anxious because nobody was listening to it. So I didn't, who, who cares? I was just trying to do something. Then there was a good chunk in the middle where I was like, oh my gosh, people, even like, um, people in my life knew like Wednesday morning, just like, he's going to be tense because he just put a half an hour of himself on the internet. Um, now it's funny cause my wife got more involved in the past couple of years and, uh, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, she would be scheduling some of these things. And that would be a lot of anxiety. And she would start feeling it until she got a little bit more used to it.

30:35And I think now that I've done it for 10 years, I do have a... I guess one of the things I've been obsessed with my whole life is watching creative people's journeys. Even when we were kids, we would talk about actors' decisions and the timelines of their movies. And And musicians, I don't know why. I don't know if that's normal, but that's a thing that me and my brothers and my dad kind of would talk about or comment on or think about, like, why did they make those choices? You know, I don't know, because it comes to mind like Nicolas Cage. You're like watching this, like these different decisions.

31:09You're like, what is he doing? What? What are you? Oh, OK. That's kind of cool. But, you know, like, I don't know. Just I've been very like thought. I've always thought a lot about the decisions that people make as they move through their career. And so I actually heard this thing from Jerry Seinfeld the other day where he was talking about writing. And I thought this is like one of the most brilliant pieces of creative advice I've ever heard. And he was saying like, when you're working on the writing and you're thinking this isn't that good, this is what you need to think yeah it's not that good that's why you have to work at it because you're not that great and i just thought that is that has served me really well to just be like to me it's just a lot of work it's not it's a lot of work there's a lot of revision there's a lot of like learning craft and trying things and putting out tons of stuff for me that's my life and so i always i never thought i knew when i was in high school i knew that in high school art class I wasn't the best in high school at drawing.

32:19Right. So there was always a sense of like, for me, it's going to be a lot of work. It's going to be a lot of growth. And so I look to, I never looked to like, you know, a Tom York or like these brilliant people that just defy. Just tumbles out somehow. I just knew like, I'm not like that. And so the people that inspired me when I'm like looking at their creative journeys were people that were really prolific and allowed themselves to make mistakes. I guess people like Nicolas Cage. That was like the best example. It was like, we were all wondering what was in that process. Yeah, I'm kidding. And also, and I'm not like a Nicolas Cage fan per se, but I did think I would like that kind of career where you do so many things that people aren't precious about it.

33:11And I remember watching, if you watch someone like, I don't know, The Weeknd came to mind for some reason where he had these like just hit after hit and it got bigger and he got bigger and bigger and bigger. And I just kind of felt like by the time he did that show that got panned critically, I thought that was inevitable. Like it was inevitable. You can't just climb up to the right. And actually, so yeah, okay. Super long winded answer. But I think for me, accepting that my creative journey was going to be just messy and it wasn't all going to be good. And I wouldn't always know what the best stuff was or what was going to be the game changer.

33:55But I had a consistency of releasing and making it a muscle and making it normal. That makes so much sense. Like, yeah, because even looking back at like when I was doing one or two comedy shows a night in New York, you know, it like the nervousness wasn't there. It was like, let me just finish this so I can like get in a cab and get to the next show and do it again. And so, yeah, I think to a certain extent, like the fact that you're like, it's one of many reps or however you look at it instead of being like, all right, I'm going to do one perfect rep in front of everyone. And that will determine the fate of the universe.

34:37Yeah. Yeah. It's too much. And I, yeah, I've always just kind of admired the musicians that have had, you know, the Innocence Mission just put out a record. This is like, you know, I don't know if they have like 17 records. They've been doing it for years and years and years. And it didn't make a huge splash. It's not going to make a huge splash, but they have their built-in audience that they've made a relationship with and they know people know what they do and they're going to keep doing it. I think I just always wanted to be like that. I just always wanted to, because I wanted to do it forever.

35:14And I also just didn't, I don't know. It was so sad to me if someone just have this, like, has this like huge, you know, I never wanted to make creativity like being in the NBA where you're like, your best years are in your early twenties. I just, I could be wrong. Like maybe I'll have a stage later where I'm like, man, I suck. And I don't want to make this anymore. I don't know. Who knows? But I, I feel like to me, it's, it's more of a practice than, than I think making that transition of releasing stuff to being in your bunker, making stuff you want to make, you want to like eliminate all the friction and all the fear and pain by just making it really, really regular.

35:58Yeah.

36:20I feel like a huge theme for me has been persistence versus consistency. Because I'm really persistent. Like I have this embroidery on my wall that I started in 2014. And the one with the rectangles. Oh, they're here. Oh, it's different. Yeah. This blue cross stitch. I started it in 2014 when I broke my leg. Yeah. And then I kind of forgot about it, like moved twice and then took it out again. And I finished it last year. And I was like, hell yeah. Yeah. But the kind of consistency of being like, what if I had worked on this a little bit every day? And so I feel like that's what I'm trying to get back on that horse because I feel like, yeah, I have the muscle now of being like, I can show up for myself.

37:11And then now it's the muscle of like, how do we get myself to the stage of sharing? The persistency versus consistency. So are you saying the consistency is like making it a rule and it happens at a particular time and you can do that? Is that what the consistency is? And persistency is more like even if it's sporadic, even if it's like, you know, even if you go cold and hot, you're going to keep coming back and pushing it. Yes. Yes. So I would say kind of to your example before, for me, one thing that I have been consistent with is vocal work. Because, you know, there are some vocalists who just like I just did a workshop with Sara Bareilles and she was like, I had to take a voice lesson for the first time in my life in my 40s.

37:58And I was like, you've been singing like this the whole time. And like you basically just open your mouth and it happens. And so for me, I was like vocal wise, I've always, you know, and kind of similar to what you said with the novelty. Like I, I don't every day do the same vocal exercises. Like I'll be like, Oh, there's this boys to men song that there's a really cool riff here. I'm just going to do that riff, you know, for like the, the next week until I get it. And I, what boys to men song are we talking? Like I, you know, end of the road, end of the road. Yeah. That's a classic. Yes. I wish I could sing.

38:32That sounds like a real great one to be able to belt. Next phase, Andy. the next phase that's your midlife crisis uh mission here's your your rap album yeah god um so i have kind of one final question which i think kind of ties into what we've already talked about but kind of how do i put this so many times i will have these projects that i come up for come up for myself um to work on and then a bigger client project or you know even life thing will come in and i'm like i'm derailed and then when that thing ends to come back to it and i'm like ah that energy is gone because i feel like like a superpower of adhd is we follow that energy you know like when we're in that mojo when we're in that flow whatever it is you're like ah it's so present.

39:31And so kind of coming back to something that has been a little interrupted and you're like, no, I come back. It looks different. It feels different. How do we continue? Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's a painful question because the answer that I have is not one that I want to hear myself. And so the most important projects I've ever done have all gone through, like the ones that have had really had a positive impact on my creative journey and my career, almost all of them have had that trajectory exactly where I'm really on fire for this thing I'm obsessed with it I can't stop thinking about it I'm working on it like crazy and then for whatever reason gets derailed I have to do something else focus on other projects whatever client work and it might even be like a couple years until you come back to it and in that zone when I've been in that zone especially the first couple times because you don't have the history of what do I need to do in this space.

40:54I would get into this feeling of, this is kind of like the through line for the whole show is this growth mindset because the growth mindset is all the bad feelings, the feelings that don't feel positive, resistance or difficulty or challenge. You have to be able to discern which of these are things you need to push through and which of these are things that say you need to turn around. I heard a quote from, it was Tim Ferriss quoting somebody else recently. And he was saying, you have to be able to recognize what's an opportunity and what's a temptation. And you have to figure out like where, and that discernment is so key.

41:39And that it's super key to knowing the growth mindset too, because there are things that you're doing where, oh, this is actually pushing against my nature. This is pushing against my values. This is uphill because this is never going to happen for me. That's a different feeling than this is uncomfortable. I don't know if I am excited. I'm, you know, whatever. And you have to really get into parsing out which feeling you're experiencing. But for me, if there was something where the fire was there in a way that was, I knew this was like authentically connected to who I am and what I want to be about in the world.

42:17And I, you know, it was really on fire. I know there's going to be a middle part of that marathon where I don't care anymore. And, and the thing is, is that the times that I was willing to push through that anyway, and figure out and a lot of that turned into like hacking my brain in one way or another one of the biggest um probably the biggest tool that helps me is talking to somebody about it who i've never talked about this project to and having to like repitch it see their reaction get some freshness to it and that's like when we were doing um the right side out project uh the series that we did last year on the show about ADHD and my mom, I, that was such a long, I'd been working on that for 10 years easily.

43:12And there were, by the time it's ready, and this is the other thing that happens is that I'm going to, I'm going to circle back to that in a second. But the other thing that happens is another huge through line on the show is strategic creativity versus exploratory of creativity and finding the sweet spot between those two things is really, really difficult. Another way of saying it is the plotter energy versus the pantser energy. Can you, can you have a goal in mind and then reverse engineer the plot so that it ends where you want it to end? That's a delicate balance because there have been books that I've written or things like Right Side Out or whatever, where once you break the story, once you know where it's going, all of a sudden it's not as fun for you to get there and finish it because you're not making up stuff.

44:05And I love talking to Julian Glander last year on the show because he gave me a real good hack for this, which he would say when he was working on his screenplay, there'd be sections where he'd just leave something beautiful goes here. And he knew that when he's animating that later, he's going to be able to have fun. He's going to be able to make something up. and so i'm very and i've said this a billion times but i'm very obsessed with the larry david curb your enthusiasm thing of we have an outline and a plot but we don't have a script we're going to improv the script so like finding that sweet spot is so essential and the thing is what we did right side out was the same thing that happened because we had i had the the overall structure the three-act structure uh really down i knew exactly what i wanted to say with it um i had a couple, I had probably three or four stories where I was like, I know what this is about.

44:59But then as we moved through it, I think probably what helped me get through it was realizing that I think my fire didn't turn back on until when we were working on the second of six episodes and we came up with something, Sophie and I are writing and we came up with something I didn't know we were going to do. And it was one of the best things in it. And I was like, oh, oh, I can actually make this thing new. And then I can like, it's just that beautiful thing here. I realized like, oh, we have a few spots where it's gonna be a challenge. It's gonna be interesting. Oh, and as we move through it, it doesn't end to how I thought it was going to.

45:40And so, yeah, I think that trying to inject some of that pantser energy, that exploratory energy where you're like, okay, I know you feel like you had it figured out. You feel like you kind of are done with it. what would it look like if you're like well even just for my own interest what if i just chopped this thing up and reinvented what it was how could i make it exciting again that i think i did that every time i got into that spot um i'm glad that's a great question because i don't think i've ever fully thought through that enough to kind of codify it to do it again on purpose um but i think I will do that now.

46:19Yeah. Cause I think like when you said hack your brain, I was like, all right, let's, let's listen up. Cause you have to. Yeah. The only way. I mean, and it's very similar to like the novelty thing. Cause like, I definitely agree with you where it's like, you know, to, to kind of, for me struggle with like structure and be like, we're going to make an outline now. And then sometimes it ends up feeling like, okay, I have drawn the outline of everything. And now I just created a color by numbers for myself. And that is not interesting. No. You know? Absolutely. And you know, another image that really helps me think about this is the archetype of like the two headed monster and the, and just realizing, okay, and this is what it feels like to be ADHD.

47:06So you have one who really wants to do this, really wants to follow through, really wants to finish a project, put it out in the world. And you know, you have one head that's like that. But you have the other head where they're like, I ain't doing that if it's not fun. How is it? And so I think just realizing like, I'll never be the person that is just the one head that's just, I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do. And I'll be proud that I did it. And just realizing like, I'm always going to have that. How do I entice that part of myself that needs to get, and I'm working on a book right now where I'm going through the process of the thumbnails, which is a really fun process because it's like, you're making it up and it's very novel.

47:48And I know the next stage is going to be, can be more challenging where I'm going to clean up the sketches, but I realized like, oh, I'm leaving looseness so that ideas are going to happen in the sketch phase. And then I even had to do the same thing. That's what I loved about starting to work traditionally, more traditional with paint and stuff is happy accidents on in Photoshop when you're drawing digitally, almost never look good. They're like, you have to be precise when you're working digitally. You can't, it's for me, at least I can't really do that. Whereas now that I'm mostly painting it, the last stage is still fun.

48:30And again, that's a hacking my brain thing is I'm like, okay, when I move to the paint phase, there's going to be elements where I don't even know how that's going to work until I'm doing it. And I think sprinkling that novelty throughout the process is really important. You know, I, the only thing I've pushed back on there is like on myself, that's the other head chiming in. Yeah. By the way, also the, the part of the, you know, the two headed monster, the other head that's like real serious and planned and all that is like, yeah, but keep the novelty, sprinkle it throughout the whole process.

49:01But also I guess I'm just constantly petitioning creatives to allow themselves to plan, try to have a plot, allow yourself to have some strategy and outlines because, you know, I just, we watched the whole season one of Severance again. And I thought this thing is like such a clear example of what's powerful about plotting. It's like so much pays off. It's so satisfying for the viewer. And it's probably so satisfying to come up with that plot. And then the challenge becomes, how do you make it interesting? Because making a show like that is going to be, you know, so much time and like finding those places where you can do the insert beautiful thing here, make sure you have a bunch of those.

49:52Yeah, I don't know. I'm very obsessed with trying to figure out how to maintain the balance of those two things. Yeah. God. Yeah. I definitely relate to that. Cause yeah, the, the two heads, the one that's like shiny object, shiny object. Yeah, absolutely. You were mentioning a thing before we got on here about an accountability partner and a practice that you do. And I thought that would be great to end the episode with, do you want to just talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure. So I have an accountability buddy. We have been checking in, I would say almost three years now. And so we centered around the new moon.

50:32We, you know, just have like an hour chat and kind of over the last half of year, we added this element, which I think has been a game changer for both of us because we are both neurodivergent, you know, have a million things. My friend Mindy, Mindy Raff is also a comedian, writer, singer, doing all the things. And so the container that we made, which I believe she was the one who came up with it and then we came up with the questions together, was to use Google Form. Because I don't know if there's other people out there who also love a Google Form. Yeah, I do. Yeah, it's a great tool. Yeah. Whenever I join something, they're like, okay, just fill out this quick Google Form to let us know your preferences.

51:19And I'm like, yay, it's like a quiz or something. Yeah, it is. So I feel like that like dopamine hit is great. And so we now have this weekly Google forum, which we call our creative container check-in. And we have five questions on there. The first question is to name two or three areas of creative focus for this week. And so for a while, I've been working on musical theater. So I'm like, I want to feel like I'm 50 % there with a song demo. Yeah. You know, she might have, oh, a sub stack draft, something like that. So very concrete, two or three things. The second question is then two or three tools that we will use to help us get in the flow or navigate any potential challenges.

52:10is. So, you know, knowing like for me, I'm like, once I get into Logic Pro and I start working on the demo, I will probably get too obsessed with EQing something when I'm like, listen, just put the ideas and this is just a sketch. And so then one of the tools might be, you know, check in with yourself every 20 minutes, set a timer and take a walk and come back so that you don't, you know, get trapped in a rabbit hole. Yeah. The third question is two or three things from the previous week's focus. So like the previous week's number one that you're proud of the wins, you know, like I was really scared about, you know, doing this key change, but I watched a couple of YouTube tutorials and I navigated it or whatever, whatever it is.

53:01And then the fourth thing, this isn't actually new for this year is something that inspired or motivated you this past week. So you'll very often, I feel, you know, even all, all the quotes that you were thrown out, you know, during this episode, you know, there's just conversations that you have, you know, like, like probably my next week's answer to this number four question will be like my combo with Angie, Andy J pizza, you know? So just putting out things like that influences inspirations. inspirations. And then the fifth one is just literally any additional thoughts because, you know, you're like an extra box.

53:38Yeah. Yeah. Just to be like, I was super sick this week and I didn't do anything or, you know, I was feeling super bummed because of this, or, you know, this came up or this is a new, you know, diet change that I made and I think it's really helping. so um that is kind of like the leave room for like life question so yeah so those are the how did you agree on those questions we we talked it out initially and so this has evolved a little bit so we there they were always kind of somewhat similar but we did uh reshuffle uh the ones this year so i think another important part of the process that we're now seeing is to maybe just check-in every six months or so to say, is this still working?

54:26Because noticing that some of the stuff that we were writing was like, hey, I read this book and it really X, Y, Zed, or I watched this show and that jogged my mind for this. And so adding that and then having all of this flow into a Google sheet and then we can kind of look at each other's responses. And also for yourself, like I'll look back and I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've been working on the same demo for two months. Or I'll be like, hell yeah, I worked on the same demo for two months and now it's done or whatever it is. So just having this record is I think very self-affirming and then, you know, having that added accountability.

55:14So kind of like once we finish, I believe we choose like Sunday, Monday to kind of fill this out. And then, uh, and then we just text each other an emoji, um, to say I did it. And so, you know, just choosing whatever emoji we feel that day, if it's Christmas, Christmas tree. If it's pizza, pizza. That's really cool. When I was a young whippersnapper, I was very nerdy about having these sorts of chats with friends. It's natural as you're getting out of college and people have similar goals. It's built in a little bit and you can get by with that for a while. I feel like as I've gotten older, I've gotten more just embarrassed about doing stuff like this.

56:03But I know it's such a game changer to have an accountability. Those times in my life where I had that and we were aware of what each other's working on and we're actually investing in each other, it is really just super important. How did this relationship come to be? So Mindy and I have known each other forever. We started out on the comedy scene doing bringer shows in like the early 2000s. And for people who don't know, tell them what that is. Oh, boy. So at a comedy club, if you're a new comedian, you need to guarantee or bring usually 20 people to the show so that you have an audience, right?

56:50Because no audience wants to see a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing. And usually, yeah, it's basically you convincing all your friends to go and they have to buy a ticket and two drinks. So it is an expensive evening. You are bringing that club hundreds of dollars so that you can stand on stage for seven to 10 minutes and do your thing. um but yeah so we really went through the trenches together and we're both musical comedians so then for a while we were on the college circuit together and we kind of you know we're in and out of touch once covid happened we all you know we're online instagram and kind of keeping up with each other that way and i kind of had this uh moment where i think my son you know had reached a certain age.

57:37So I was like, you know, okay, I kind of know how to be a parent now. And I was like, and I want to get back to creative practice. So I put out there, you know, to just my followers, who wants to be an accountability buddy? And so I believe like five or six people raised their hands. And to this day, like three of them are still really going strong. And so Mindy and I, We had this long history, but then kind of reconnecting and seeing how our paths are parallel now. And then I have another accountability buddy who he and I totally met straight up on Instagram. And he was a travel influencer at one point.

58:19Some of my friends, I'll tell them, yeah, my accountability buddy, Steven. And they're like, oh, my God, I follow him. He's really hot or whatever. But he and I were checking in for years. And then we finally met in person a couple of years ago. And that friendship just truly went from being online to, you know, IRL as well. But yeah, this has really helped me a lot to just be through ups and downs. And that's what also I feel like I got a lot from, although it's more one-sided, a podcast like Creative Pep Talk, where you're just like, man, I'm witnessing this person's journey and it makes me feel less alone.

58:55Yeah. You know? Yeah. I totally relate to that. And I think we overcomplicate things like this of, oh, I've got to find the perfect person to do this with. And we got to do the same kind of things, have the same goals, whatever it is. And it's got to be this like bestie that we know everything about it. You know, you made it so simple just by putting it out to your followers and just picking a few that worked and rolling with it. And I think that's really inspiring. I think a lot of people need to do that. Jen, thank you for doing this. This was super fun. Thanks for raising your hand for doing something like this.

59:34And thanks for coining the term creative pepperonis. That had a big impact on my every day, honestly. I just completely forgot about it.

1:00:02All right, that's your CTA for today. Go get yourself an accountability partner. Get a buddy. If you don't got one, get one and get some of those Google forms going. I love this idea because I love the idea of having a record and kind of a document beyond my notes app that has an ability to string together some consistency and some patterns. Because for me, my creative energy and my ideas and my direction feels so all over the place every single week. You know, what I'm interested in, what I'm focused on, what I think matters. It can just be all over the place. And I'd love a place to kind of see a bigger picture and also a different set of eyes to help me see what the patterns are, see what I'm consistently interested in, and just have something that grounds that whole experience a little bit.

1:00:59So I love that idea. Encourage you to do it. I'm going to explore doing it myself. And massive thanks to Jen Kwok for coming on here and doing a live Ask Dr. Pizza. Go check out Jen. jenquok.com j-e-n-k-w-o-k.com uh massive thanks to sophie miller for editing and co-producing this show thanks to connor jones of pending beautiful for audio and video edits and sound design thanks to yoni wolf and the band y for our theme music and soundtrack and thanks to all of you for listening until we speak again stay pepped up

1:01:58Okay, the podcast is over, so I don't know why you're still listening, but I am glad that you enjoyed it enough to stick to the end. And I have one more thing for you. If you're in a place where you're feeling a lack of clarity and you want to figure out your industry market and niche and find the perfect strategic side project to do next, go sign up to our newsletter at andyjpizza.substack .com. And you will get a confirmation email that will give you the download of our Creative Career Path hand booklet. And the whole process is in there. and you might also get a few bonuses in there depending on when you sign up.

1:02:41But again, thanks for listening. Glad you enjoyed the episode and stay pepped up, y 'all. Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them. Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.